Healing trance use-case ...?

[glarkhag]

Hi

I was looking at the Healing Trance Rune Spell and I can't really see where the benefit of this would be given the existence of the spirit magic spell of Heal. I think it's a cool spell and without Heal I can absolutely see how good it is. But, A healer with 10 MPs could heal 10 points per day and not be in a trance. that's 10 per location per week. Sure using up all your MPs leaves you vulnerable but so does being in a trance!  Have I missed something?

[Akhôrahil]

You're mostly correct that it's pointless in the face of proper healing, but there might be some corner cases, namely things that aren't merely common damage. For instance, you can't heal poison damage using spirit magic Heal or Heal wound (you can with Heal Body, but that's 3 Rune Points, so it costs a bit). Healing trance accelerates normal healing though, so it will fast-heal poison damage. Same thing if the GM has assigned (as I like to do) temporary Characteristic damage that will heal with natural healing (such as CON damage from being thirsty or exposed to the elements).

[Scotty]

22 hours ago, glarkhag said:

Hi

I was looking at the Healing Trance Rune Spell and I can't really see where the benefit of this would be given the existence of the spirit magic spell of Heal. I think it's a cool spell and without Heal I can absolutely see how good it is. But, A healer with 10 MPs could heal 10 points per day and not be in a trance.

22 hours ago, glarkhag said:

that's 10 per location per week. Sure using up all your MPs leaves you vulnerable but so does being in a trance!  Have I missed something?

Healing Trance is used for healing total hit points (aka General hit points) without the addition of magic points. Heal Wound only heals wounds (locations) as well as total hit points and needs magic points. Likewise Heal is per location. Heal Body is expensive at 3 Rune points.

This means it's main use is for Drowning and Asphyxiation, large area burns (eg Fire Elementals), poison, cold and heat exposure, dragging, and spells such as Safe, Sever Spirit (if unsuccessful), Sunspear and Thunderbolt, damage arising from shamanic effects such as Possession, and Extended Discorporation, and sorcery such as Create Wall of Flames.

It's availability is limited to Chalana Arroy (and Ernalda as an associate), and Xiola Umbar (and Kyger Litor & Zorak Zoran as an associate). So for an Chalana Arroy and Ernalda initiates it's much cheaper than the 3 points of Heal Body. Xiola Umbar has no access to Heal Body.

See Rune Magic by Cult and Associate Cult – H for cult availability of these spells.

added to Q&A

Edited September 23 by Scotty
corrected

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, Scotty said:

Xiola Umbar has no access to Heal Body.

And that is the key

[glarkhag]

cool, thanks folks

[Darius West]

On 9/23/2023 at 3:29 AM, glarkhag said:

Hi

I was looking at the Healing Trance Rune Spell and I can't really see where the benefit of this would be given the existence of the spirit magic spell of Heal. I think it's a cool spell and without Heal I can absolutely see how good it is. But, A healer with 10 MPs could heal 10 points per day and not be in a trance. that's 10 per location per week. Sure using up all your MPs leaves you vulnerable but so does being in a trance!  Have I missed something?

I also think this spell is a bit niche, but I would point out that it heals General HP afaik, and so applies for things like poison.

[Malin]

On 9/23/2023 at 1:22 PM, Scotty said:

Healing Trance is used for healing total hit points

Related healing questions:

• The Heal Wound rune spell says it heals the location AND the general HP.
• The Heal spirit magic says it repairs 1 point per point of Heal in the touched location. It does not mention general HP.

Am I to assume that if you use Heal Wound (with 3 mp), you heal a sword cut on your arm for 3 hp and your total hp for 3 hp? While if you use Heal spirit magic 3, you ONLY regain 3 hp in the location, and none to the total hp?

But then if we consider first Aid, that also says to the location. No mention of general HP.

I saw in the corrections thread that Natural Healing also restores general HP:
 

Quote

How will the damage to the total hit points heal naturally?

If the damage is against total hit points and not a specific hit location through something like poison, fire, etc., natural healing works there too. Each location gets its natural healing each week, as does any damage to total hit points.

But is this just ONE thing for total hp as a separate hit location, or does every location healing also affect total hp? If you have  2 wounds and heals 2hp naturally, will that be 2hp healed to the total hit points, or 4 hp healed to total hit points, or 6hp? 

In the drowning rules it says you take 1d8hp damage to the chest location. Yet you list drowning as an example of general hp damage in your post above. Which is correct? (i personally like the general hp variant better)

Sorry for the questions, this just got me thinking.

Edited September 24 by Malin

[Rodney Dangerduck]

So the example is for a player character who has taken general HP, but survived the encounter.  They need "out of melee round combat" healing.  O.K.  (If they need "in combat" healing, then Healing Trance is clearly inappropriate)

If a super-strict GM rules that the Heal spirit magic spell does not work, the solution is not Healing Trance.  The solution is to find a new GM.

[Malin]

We have used Heal spirit magic for total HP before, this post just made me go in and read the actual rules as written. I am not sure what the intent is, of course we can do what we like, I am just wondering if it is an oversight or an intended effect! (It's the wargamer in me, it thrives on clarity of terms and language)

[Godlearner]

1 hour ago, Malin said:

Am I to assume that if you use Heal Wound (with 3 mp), you heal a sword cut on your arm for 3 hp and your total hp for 3 hp? While if you use Heal spirit magic 3, you ONLY regain 3 hp in the location, and none to the total hp?

When you taek damage in a location, your general hit point are also reduced. This type of damage can be healed by Heal, Mend Flesh or Heal Wound spells. If you take damage directly to your general hit points, without damage to a specific hit location you will need either a Heal Body, Accelerate Healing or Healing Trance.

[Malin]

That is how we have played it, but does it actually SAY that anywhere? Considering the text is different in Heal and Heal Wound it seems they should have different effects?

Edited September 24 by Malin

[Akhôrahil]

56 minutes ago, Malin said:

That is how we have played it, but does it actually SAY that anywhere? 

I don't run it like that at all, and it's not what the Heal Wound spell seem to say (it strongly indicates the exact opposite).

It's also non-obvious why a certain magic should be able to heal burns to a body part (which it very clearly does) but not full-body burns - where's the logic in that?

Edited September 24 by Akhôrahil

[davecake]

I don't think its at all a coincidence that Xiola Umbar's brother, Zorak Zoran, is one of the cults with the Seal Wound spell - which means that wounds caused can not be healed by magic, including not just Healing but Heal Wound and Heal Body and similar spells. Wounds from Seal Wound can only be healed by natural healing over time - but Healing Trance does count, as its still healing naturally with time, it's just a lot less time. 

So, one definite use for it is when fighting Zorak Zorani - or Tusk Riders, who also have access to the spell, and a similarly sadistic nature. 

[Malin]

Now that I am less wrapped up in wargaming rules, maybe I can formulate my question better.

Compare the two spells:

Quote

 

Heal Wound

This common spell heals damage done to a living creature. It works equally well on any living thing, provided it has hit points. When cast, the caster must simultaneously spend magic points equal to the hit points to be healed. This spell cures the damage in the locations touched, as well as total hit points.

Heal (Spirit magic)

This spell repairs damage done to hit points. The caster must touch the part of the body being healed. Each point of Heal immediately repairs 1 hit point in that location. If the location is not fully restored, Heal can be used again in subsequent melee rounds. Heal cannot raise an adventurer from the dead. However, 2 points of Heal stops the bleeding of any wound or severed limb, and 6 points of Heal restores a severed limb to the body if all parts are available.

 

Question:

"This spell cures the damage in the locations touched, as well as total hit points."

Does this mean Heal Wound can be used against pure total hit point damage (like a systemic poison or a thunderbolt)? It did not seem that way in the explanation of the Healing Trance above, but I might have misread it. However, if Heal Wound can be used that way, it is quicker and cheaper to use than Healing Trance since it is available to everyone, and you do not have to be stuck in a trance for the healing. Instead, you just have to regenerate the magic points naturally.

I always took the sentence as meaning that the total hit points that were lost due to the wound were also healed at the same time.

But in that case, why does Heal spirit magic lack that sentence? Is it just an oversight? Is there some sort of qualitative difference in the healing other than the fact that rune magic goes fast and heals a lot in combat, and spirit magic is slower and cheaper for out-of-combat.

 

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Malin said:

"This spell cures the damage in the locations touched, as well as total hit points."

Does this mean Heal Wound can be used against pure total hit point damage (like a systemic poison or a thunderbolt)?

Hm. Interesting. Traditionally, I've always thought that Heal Wound could not be used against poison etc. Looking back at previous editions, the only substantial change from RQ3 is that "location touched" is now "locations touched" so you explicitly can use it to heal more than one wound.

I think the "location touched" is what led us to believe it is a "one wound only, and it has to be a location-specific wound" interpretation.

Also, TIL that Heal Body restores missing limbs which it didn't do in previous editions. That makes Regrow Limb almost pointless, although it is one less Rune Point. And not everyone gets Heal Body.

Edited September 26 by PhilHibbs

[Joerg]

10 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Heal Body restores missing limbs which it didn't do in previous editions. That makes Regrow Limb almost pointless, although it is one less Rune Point. And not everyone gets Heal Body.

Only one step away from the party returning with the still smoking boot of their friend who happened to coincide with the fireball tossed to the resurrector to do their stuff. Now imagine someone else with the other, likewise smoking boot doing the same with another resurrector, asking for six rune points to be spent, Heal Body and Resurrection. Suddenly that spirit combat with the spiritual part of that resurrectee becomes a tug-of-war...

[Malin]

52 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

And not everyone gets Heal Body.

Regrow limb: Chalana Arroy, Drrzola, Ernalda, Grain Goddesses, Kero Fin – Issaries, Seven Mothers, Babeester Gor, Flamal, Maran Gor, Yinkin.

Heal body: Aldrya, Chalana Arroy. Ernalda – Eiritha, Yelmalio, Shamans, Babeester Gor, Barntar, Orlanth, Yelm, Heler, lots of elf deities.

 

So the only overlap is between Chalana Arroy, Ernalda and Babeester Gor, I think. There it's probably a rune point issue what would be most economic and what the initiate would know. I guess Heal Body would be good in tense battle situations since it would also restore all lost hp, while Regrow Limb is used to fix things later, back in civilian life, for limbs lost on the battlefield.

Edited September 26 by Malin

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Traditionally, I've always thought that Heal Wound could not be used against poison etc.

the real question isn't "does it heal the damage of poison", it's "does it also remove the poison?" i'd venture yes given that it heals wounds that might have arrowheads or whatever in them but idk.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Also, TIL that Heal Body restores missing limbs which it didn't do in previous editions. That makes Regrow Limb almost pointless

Yes. Which is a bit of a shame - if you had to go without a limb at least for a while (no easy reattachment or instant regrowth), then losing a limb might mean something.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Hm. Interesting. Traditionally, I've always thought that Heal Wound could not be used against poison

This is correct, but it has nothing do with general HPs - poison damage explicitly can't be healed with generic healing magic.

[David Scott]

The overlapping of spell effects gives me a better overview of how CA healers work. Given the Rune point cost of spells, I'd give weight spells according to RP cost (low to high):

If you've three Rune points, the 1-point spells are a no brainer (Summon Healing spirit, Healing Trance and pick one of the others - heal wound is common). You can be the most effective, letting you summon three healing spirits or Heal wound etc.

This lets me have a room in the Jonstown temple where entranced initiates spend their 10% free time serving the temple, with Healing trance.

The next big spend is two points of Regrow Limb. 

[Malin]

Super helpful! (I am currently writing on healthcare). I think healing Trance also heals locations since it accelerates normal healing. How you put it there makes a lot of sense for a hospital setting.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

Heal Body can handle poison and chaos as well as anything else (possibly barring some Chaos wound that explicitly requires Cure Chaos Wound).

Edited September 26 by Akhôrahil

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

The overlapping of spell effects gives me a better overview of how CA healers work. Given the Rune point cost of spells, I'd give weight spells according to RP cost (low to high):

If you've three Rune points, the 1-point spells are a no brainer (Summon Healing spirit, Healing Trance and pick one of the others - heal wound is common). You can be the most effective, letting you summon three healing spirits or Heal wound etc.

This lets me have a room in the Jonstown temple where entranced initiates spend their 10% free time serving the temple, with Healing trance.

The next big spend is two points of Regrow Limb. 

If you have three RP, then surely Heal Wound, Cure All Disease, and Heal Body would be logical choices. You don't need to spend 2 POW all at once to learn a 2 point spell, or 3 for a 3.

Also, should Healing Trance appear in the first and third columns, or am I misunderstanding the purpose of the chart?

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

If you have three RP, then surely Heal Wound, Cure All Disease, and Heal Body would be logical choices.

Heal Wound is Common, no need to actively pick that.