How is Homeland/Occupation/Cult skills calculated?

[Electorcountdonut]

How is Homeland/Occupation/Cult skills calculated?

I was bored today and decided to look further in the core rulebook and got curious since I saw some of the homelands/occupations/cults had more skills combined(Like 20%+15%+10% is 45).
So is there a  specific way of calculating skills for Homelands, occupations or cults?

These were some of the differences I have found.

Ignoring Customs and speaking their own language, this is the homeland skills combined:

• Sartar has 75 in Cultural Skills and 90 in Cultural Weapons. Total: 165
• Esrolia has 90 in Cultural Skills and 95 in Cultural Weapons.Total: 185
• Grazelands has 95 in Cultural Skills and 75 in Cultural Weapons.Total: 170
• Lunar Tarsh has 85 in Cultural Skills and 80 in Cultural Weapons.Total:165
• Old Tarsh has 65 in Cultural Skills and 90 in Cultural Weapons.Total:155
• Prax has the same cultural skills with 120 but has differences in Cultural Weapons.

Prax Cultural Weapons:

• Bison Rider:55 
• High Llama Rider:45
• Impala Rider:55
• Pol-Joni:60
• Sable Rider:50

I didn’t count all occupations:

• Entertainer: 175
• Fisher: 130.
• Thief:175.
• Merchant: 170
• Hunter: 140

warriors:

• Heavy Infantry:165
• Light Infantry: 195
• Heavy Cavalry: 200
• Light Cavalry: 200

Ignoring the Bonus they get to other skills and Cult Lore (deity) , Worship (deity) , Meditate

• Argan Argar: 45
• Babeester Gor: 55
• Chalana Arroy: 45
• Daka Fal: 45
• Eiritha: 45
• Engizi:45
• Ernalda: 65
• Humakt: 45
• Issaries: 45
• Lhankor Mhy: 45
• Maran Gor: 60
• Odayla: 45
• Orlanth:55
• Seven Mothers: 45
• Storm Bull: 45
• Waha: 45
• Yelm: 50
• Yelmalio: 45
• Yinkin: 35

Edited November 3, 2023 by Scotty
compacted

[Jason D]

We gave bonuses to the skills based on what we felt were appropriate.

There was no requirement to make them balance against each other, as that is an arbitrary standard that does not reflect the setting. 

 

[AndreJarosch]

Like in the Real World (TM): It doesn´t have to be ballanced, nor does it have to be "fair". 

[Scotty]

Feel free to adjust the numbers to suit your game. Occupations on page 64 states that, and you can apply it to any part of adventurer creation.

[French Desperate WindChild]

by the way, adding skills doesn't really demonstrate anything :

 

what is the most interesting between [Read/write kralori +90%] and [dodge +50%] when your setting is Seshnela ?

Is there any trouble if a warrior from esrolia has 50% in plant lore when a warrior from prax has maybe 15% ?

 

what is the most efficient warrior between ?

[weapon A +20%] [weapon B +20%] [weapon C +20%] [weapon D +20%] [weapon E +20%] [weapon F +20%] [weapon G +20%]  = +140%

and

[weapon A +80%] = 80%

 

so I would say that the balance between pc is more a GM responsability (offering anyone situation where their pc is good and is the one who will drive the group)

[Shiningbrow]

Yeah, I did the same a few years ago...

My question - not about 'balance' - is whether two people from vastly different backgrounds and experiences, can be said to have such significant amounts of differences in their knowledge and skills - at the same age (and from a relatively similar culture, that being 'bronze age').

Sure, some people put in more time and effort to learn things, but I don't think that the homeland and occupations tables are actually trying to indicate that.

There should be some basic facts that we can acknowledge - most humans (on Earth) have similar linguistic abilities at the same age levels, regardless of culture (and technology level). Knowledge of one's own customs is usually pretty similar (but, may depend on whether there are clear boundaries socially). Perception skills will differ, because of how you're brought up, and what's important.

There are a LOT of other differences in types of skills known. But I'm not sure you can really make the argument that one's homeland/occupation gives one more 'skill points' - just different - and across the board... (ie, even a beggar in Nochet is as knowledgeable/experienced as a noble - based on merely being born in the same area... ALL Esrolians are more experienced just by living there (and everyone knows the same amount of weapon skills to the same degree)

(is a 4th year plumber more knowledgeable about plumbing than a 4th year electrician is about electrics? Or chef? or boilermaker? Same with our college/university graduates) From experience, I can say that there are indeed differences in education (we can see that from world rankings & competitions!)

There's clearly been some attempt at balance!  Every homeland has weapons skills at either 10 or 15% - with only ONE exception - and that's the only one with a single 20% and a single 5% (Impala Rider)... (balance)

 

Yes, this is an artefact of a role playing game, and different RPGs do it in different ways.

 

On a different note - is there much in the way of different percentages for the occupations based on different locations? No (cat all Nobles (or philosophers, priests, scribes, farmers, etc) are the same! (Can Praxian Nobles and Priests actually read???)

[French Desperate WindChild]

I agree that having more a matrix of occupation x homeland, listing skill bonus would be more interesting (for me)

few examples

1) should an esrolian farmer know farming "more" than an old tarshite farmer ? I would say yes (because probably Esrolia is more "advanced" in farming)

2) should an esrolian fisher know farming "more" than an old tarshite ? I would say no (that's not because you know the basic of farm ok, but to know the "high level" of farming developped in Esrolia should need investment)

3) could a bison rider in the wastes choose a fisher occupation ? maybe but then would (s)he be able to ride like any more "standard" bison rider ? probably not.

4) should noble occupation be the same in all cultures ? Should Talar have good war skill for example ? Should Praxian noble have developped large skill in manage household ?

 

but to make me happy with all these things, rules should probably have so many tables that, at the end of the day, I would be bored 😛 so don't know what is the best way

 

If I had to design rules, I would probably work in another way, where players buy anything during the creation (characteristics, skills, status, number of gods initiation, heirloom...) with some limits like "you can't have more than custom 30% in any other culture than yours " (or you pay more to have more) etc..

but that means more complexity for players. Some are already afraid when they see the rules even if, once you are familiar, it is simple. so not sure my ideas fit with a lot of people

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

This does become a problem another profession is better at the actual profession’s job. For instance, if you want a better hunter, make a herder.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I agree that having more a matrix of occupation x homeland, listing skill bonus would be more interesting (for me)

few examples

 

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

1) should an esrolian farmer know farming "more" than an old tarshite farmer ? I would say yes (because probably Esrolia is more "advanced" in farming)

What gives you this idea? 

Esrolia has a very high proportion of unfree and semi-free folk toiling on the fields. Old Tarsh on the other hand has freeman farmers who immigrated from Saird, a region nearly as productive as Esrolia, and with as old an Earth cult to support that farming. Add to that the Heruvernalda and Shaker Temple rites, and the Old Tarshite may be the more knowledgeable farmer. Not necessarily the farmer with the better harvest, though.

 

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

2) should an esrolian fisher know farming "more" than an old tarshite ? I would say no (that's not because you know the basic of farm ok, but to know the "high level" of farming developped in Esrolia should need investment)

Define Esrolian Fisher first. Do you mean some of the coastal or estuary fisherfolk reaping the wealth of Choralinthor and the tides, or do you mean some riverine fisherfolk harvesting fish from the irrigation or drainage ditches between the grain fields? The former is bound to know a lot less about farming than the latter.

 

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

3) could a bison rider in the wastes choose a fisher occupation ? maybe but then would (s)he be able to ride like any more "standard" bison rider ? probably not.

That would be a "one unique thing" as per 13th Age, really. While there are occasional bodies of water in the Wastes, few are stable enough to support fishing year around. The creatures from the bogs in the Wastes aren't exactly useful for human consumption.

 

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

4) should noble occupation be the same in all cultures ? Should Talar have good war skill for example ? Should Praxian noble have developped large skill in manage household ?

Talar: depends strongly on the Malkioni sect. In the Kingdom of Seshnela (Tanisor really), the talar caste has added the roles of the Men-of-All to their duties, so yes, as good a selection of war skills is to be expected as for Orlanthi nobles. Orthodox Brithini talars may have a few defensive skills with bashing sceptres or throwing crowns if they regularly get to command military forces, but otherwise definitely not.

A Praxian noble should have herding-related and magic-related skills rather than agricultural or administrative ones. The Oasis folk are self-organizing, and any direct Praxian involvement in their business is bound to result in a reduction of productivity.

 

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but to make me happy with all these things, rules should probably have so many tables that, at the end of the day, I would be bored 😛 so don't know what is the best way

If you're the GM, then apply GM fiat if the players are willing to go along. If you're a player, get the table's consensus.

 

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

If I had to design rules, I would probably work in another way, where players buy anything during the creation (characteristics, skills, status, number of gods initiation, heirloom...) with some limits like "you can't have more than custom 30% in any other culture than yours " (or you pay more to have more) etc..

but that means more complexity for players. Some are already afraid when they see the rules even if, once you are familiar, it is simple. so not sure my ideas fit with a lot of people

I used to abuse the RQ3 lifepath system to allow medium-aged characters a few "career changes" due to changes in their previous life. Parental skills up to a certain age, then occupational skills similar to those you get free checks in in RQG.

[French Desperate WindChild]

30 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

1) should an esrolian farmer know farming "more" than an old tarshite farmer ? I would say yes (because probably Esrolia is more "advanced" in farming)

What gives you this idea? 

Esrolia has a very high proportion of unfree and semi-free folk toiling on the fields. Old Tarsh on the other hand has freeman farmers who immigrated from Saird, a region nearly as productive as Esrolia, and with as old an Earth cult to support that farming. Add to that the Heruvernalda and Shaker Temple rites, and the Old Tarshite may be the more knowledgeable farmer. Not necessarily the farmer with the better harvest, though.

the core book rule gives +25 farm to any esrolian (so esrolian farmer) when old tarsh gives +15 farm to any tarshite (so old tarshite farmer).

I m not able to explain the difference by my low knowledge , i just interpreted the simplest (for me) way ; if esrolian farmer as +10% than old tarshite farmer, I suppose there are better technics known in Esrolia, (note that the bonus is not you have a bonus when you work in Esrolia, the bonus is anywhere in the world if you are Esrolian, so that is knowledge not localization)

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

2) should an esrolian fisher know farming "more" than an old tarshite ? I would say no (that's not because you know the basic of farm ok, but to know the "high level" of farming developped in Esrolia should need investment)

Define Esrolian Fisher first. Do you mean some of the coastal or estuary fisherfolk reaping the wealth of Choralinthor and the tides, or do you mean some riverine fisherfolk harvesting fish from the irrigation or drainage ditches between the grain fields? The former is bound to know a lot less about farming than the latter.

There is only 1 fisher occupation in the core rules. But I agree you may find different types of fishers, with different knowledge. To be honest my first idea was "sailor" (those who go far on the sea) but it wasn't in the rule

47 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

3) could a bison rider in the wastes choose a fisher occupation ? maybe but then would (s)he be able to ride like any more "standard" bison rider ? probably not.

That would be a "one unique thing" as per 13th Age, really. While there are occasional bodies of water in the Wastes, few are stable enough to support fishing year around. The creatures from the bogs in the Wastes aren't exactly useful for human consumption.

yes we agree. I used fisher because it was fisher in my second point and prax because the idea seems so weird. But as it is possible (by rule and with your example), the question remains about riding at a high level when your occupation is not based on daily riding.

53 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 

4 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

4) should noble occupation be the same in all cultures ? Should Talar have good war skill for example ? Should Praxian noble have developped large skill in manage household ?

Talar: depends strongly on the Malkioni sect. In the Kingdom of Seshnela (Tanisor really), the talar caste has added the roles of the Men-of-All to their duties, so yes, as good a selection of war skills is to be expected as for Orlanthi nobles. Orthodox Brithini talars may have a few defensive skills with bashing sceptres or throwing crowns if they regularly get to command military forces, but otherwise definitely not.

A Praxian noble should have herding-related and magic-related skills rather than agricultural or administrative ones. The Oasis folk are self-organizing, and any direct Praxian involvement in their business is bound to result in a reduction of productivity.

As it depends, the question is valid. My (sometimes not convinced) examples were just to illustrate the point that homeland has not the same impact depending on the occupation. Now I haven't find an organized rule (aka tables) covering all the options without adding complexity. So my best way would be "up to the player, and let's both player and GM explain why this % for this character. And you will probably have a lot of better "based on background reasons" than me to explain any % 🙂 )

57 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I used to abuse the RQ3 lifepath system to allow medium-aged characters a few "career changes" due to changes in their previous life. Parental skills up to a certain age, then occupational skills similar to those you get free checks in in RQG.

yes life path is an option I have in mind (even to creating a young adventurer). but that doesn't allow all the options. For example it is not possible, by any means I think, to create a lunar scout speaking very well kralori (> 60%) even if background allows it. Of course there is the mgf keay word, and that is thing I apply (in the same way I don't follow the core rule background by default, only if player wants to apply it). But rules speaking, it is not "allowed"

 

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

(note that the bonus is not you have a bonus when you work in Esrolia, the bonus is anywhere in the world if you are Esrolian, so that is knowledge not localization)

Although a very narrow scope, this is really important!!! A GM should at least dump a huge negative when trying to do something in a very different environment (be it farming, fishing, herding or hunting... or bureaucracy, insight, orate).

 

As for how to make these skill tables work better - actually, going back an edition or two... Urban, rural, nomad, and.... oh, we have a problem with the new PC woke world we live in, because we can't really say 'primitive' now, can we? (just as I'm not using 'civilised' and 'barbarian').

Then we could add bonuses... Such as those based on homeland/culture.

And, in a way, I like Mongoose here - choose from a list of skills (although, rather than an all or nothing, I'd suggest "Allocate X% of points amongst these options - none higher than" idea). Then do the same with occupation. Then add the 'bonus' skills. (I'm not sure if blanket +25/10% works... easier, sure! But perhaps 'add 150% to any skills, but no more than X to any one' would work better!

 

This allows urbanised Esrolians to be somewhat different to rural Esrolians (how many in the city would really know how to farm properly?? And that would go for any city folk... If you want to know how to farm, 'buy' the skill!)

[French Desperate WindChild]

43 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Urban, rural, nomad, and....

hunshen 😛

[soltakss]

What annoys me most about Homeland skills is the huge numbers of weapon skill adds. I don't care about having a bonus to both Medium and Large Shields, for example. Just give me a bonus to weapon categories, for example Shields, Swords, Axes and so on, that makes things a lot simpler.

[SDLeary]

8 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

hunshen 😛

Or “Archaic”?

SDLeary

[Ian Absentia]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Urban, rural, nomad, and.... oh, we have a problem with the new PC woke world we live in, because we can't really say 'primitive' now, can we?

Ugh.

You don't need to say it now, do you?  Urban, Rural, and Nomadic work just fine.  Couple them with relative (if arbitrary) states of technological development appropriate to the genre (Simple vs Complex) and you can describe a character without invoking needless, quaint, and inaccurate real-world cultural bias.  Unless your game is actually about portraying cultural bias, in which case you're frying a different fish.

!i!

Edited November 5, 2023 by Ian Absentia

[Shiningbrow]

11 hours ago, Ian Absentia said:

Ugh.

You don't need to say it now, do you?  Urban, Rural, and Nomadic work just fine.  Couple them with relative (if arbitrary) states of technological development appropriate to the genre (Simple vs Complex) and you can describe a character without invoking needless, quaint, and inaccurate real-world cultural bias.  Unless your game is actually about portraying cultural bias, in which case you're frying a different fish.

!i!

Hmmm, you may be right! Primitive as a technological level works well as an adjective for the other three groupings!

[Rodney Dangerduck]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:14 AM, Jason D said:

We gave bonuses to the skills based on what we felt were appropriate.

There was no requirement to make them balance against each other...

 

OTOH, it would be simpler to balance them.  And probably shorten the rules. 

Just say that all occupations add, say, 175%, list the occupational skills, and allow players to distribute their points, maximum +30% each, amongst those skills.  Do the same for cults and homelands.

[Joerg]

Should be urban agricultural, rural agricultural, nomadic pastoralist and hunter-gatherer, after the primary source of food. (Fisherfolk sort of need to be associated with any of these.)

[StephenMcG]

I bought into the keyword system in HeroQuest quite strongly. It especially works if you are playing seasonal or yearly games where it is assumed characters have lives outside of the adventuring gameplay.

I would not mind seeing keywords with keyword thresholds.  So a character might begin with keywords that reflect Homeland, Occupation and Cult.  Each of these would have a base level and suggested skills to be under that.  You would get points to distribute within the keyword skills.  If you come up with a skill that feels like it belongs to a keyword, not currently on your sheet, you can add it. "Everyone from the Old City in Prax knows how trolls work, can I put troll lore into my homeland keyword?".

The thresholds in my head are 30/50/70/90.

When you get a keyword, it will be at one of those thresholds, you mightvdescribe them as Fair, Good, Master, and Heroic.

If your keyword is Fair (30%) and you get five or more skills within it to Good (50%), then the whole keyword is wrapped up to Good, base skills now become 50%, for anything that sits within the keyword.

I exclude characteristic bonuses from the keyword skills, so your sword skill might be 45% boosted by Agility of +15%, it remains Fair as far as they keyword goes.

This adds a bit of friction, where skills always have two figures on the sheet 45 (60) or are colour coded to skill type and the player adds skill to bonus each time.  I find it useful though, the characters become more focussed on the keyword attributes (playing more to archetype) but also being more competent as time goes on, not having orphan skills (like walk in snowshoes) and being able to do things people of that homeland/occupation/cult should be able to do at an appropriate level, even if the ability has never come into gameplay before.

It is possible for players,  through play, to suggest adding, or replacing a keyword. This would involve talking through why people in the gameworld might see them as something, like River Voice, picking through the skills that comprise that role and dictate a reasonable keyword threshold, then updating the character sheet.  I work on the basis of a character having no more than 3-4 keywords.

 

Stephen

[Shiningbrow]

23 hours ago, Joerg said:

Should be urban agricultural, rural agricultural, nomadic pastoralist and hunter-gatherer, after the primary source of food. (Fisherfolk sort of need to be associated with any of these.)

Honestly, I'd like to see a JC of a whole stack of homeland/occupation tables related to each. As I'm quite sure a Noble from Nochet would be quite different in skill selection (and %) from a Noble from Prax, or Glamour, or Clearwine... apart from the Homeland percentages. (would farmers/fishers/hunters be the same across the continent, for the most part??)

I do most certainly appreciate that having such piles and piles of tables would not be to everyone's liking, would affect character creation (too many options can slow things down... at first!)

I do also think that there should be some sense of 'balance' at this point - at least, for each race - but differences between races.

[SDLeary]

8 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Honestly, I'd like to see a JC of a whole stack of homeland/occupation tables related to each. As I'm quite sure a Noble from Nochet would be quite different in skill selection (and %) from a Noble from Prax, or Glamour, or Clearwine... apart from the Homeland percentages. (would farmers/fishers/hunters be the same across the continent, for the most part??)

I do most certainly appreciate that having such piles and piles of tables would not be to everyone's liking, would affect character creation (too many options can slow things down... at first!)

I do also think that there should be some sense of 'balance' at this point - at least, for each race - but differences between races.

It works for other games, so why not RQ... "RuneQuest Big Book of Tables!" When do you think you'll have this ready for us? 😉 

More seriously though, if we could come up with at least a framework/template, perhaps this could be used by authors to insert into their future regional supplements, or added as an errata for those already in publication.

Balance, if you are referring to skill points, is a lot easier to justify than overall balance. If we wanted to go old school, we could start with 30 points/yr and try to model and then modify from there.

SDLeary

[Shiningbrow]

13 hours ago, SDLeary said:

It works for other games, so why not RQ... "RuneQuest Big Book of Tables!" When do you think you'll have this ready for us? 😉 

More seriously though, if we could come up with at least a framework/template, perhaps this could be used by authors to insert into their future regional supplements, or added as an errata for those already in publication.

Balance, if you are referring to skill points, is a lot easier to justify than overall balance. If we wanted to go old school, we could start with 30 points/yr and try to model and then modify from there.

SDLeary

Yeah, I think I'd prefer a table system than a basic X number of skill points, just to keep it as RQG, and not move it to some other game/edition.

I might think about it... but I'm sure my Glorantha/Dragon Pass knowledge wouldn't be enough to satisfy most people...

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

but I'm sure my Glorantha/Dragon Pass knowledge wouldn't be enough to satisfy most people...

same for me 😛

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

I think I'd prefer a table system than a basic X number of skill points

don't oppose both options

 

imo, but maybe too long/complex during the creation, I would like something like:

- you choose your parent social position (S) your occupation (O) and your homeland (H)

 

- then you determine three list of skills

 the table SxH provides a list of common skills and uncommon skills.

Pretty sure that lunar Empire nobility would promote intrigue rather than martial skills. And the opposite in Sartar. Of course an efficient noble in both cases should have both.

 

 the table OxH provides a list of common skills and uncommon skills.

That's not because you are a herder (in plain) that you know how to climb like a herder in mountain. That's not because you are a warrior that you have access to any weapon and good trainer.

 

 the table H provides a list of common kills and uncommon skills. Because you are in Sartar of course you know Sartarite

 

for your character if a skill is common in at least one of your 3 lists, then it is common, if not common but at least uncommon then the skill is uncommon. And of course the other skills are "exotic"

we may consider that, for any background reason, you can choose another common skill (for example, your homeland is Sartar but your grandparent were kralori, so you pick kralory language as a common skill)

 

- you can then have  a pool of skill points to distribute following few rules :

1) any common skill must at least have 25%

2) the cost for 1% depends on the level and the type of skill:

common skill: [0 -> 50%] => 1% = 1pt / [51% ->75%] => 1% = 2pt / >75% => 1% = 3pt

uncommon skill: [0 -> 50%] => 1% = 2pt / [51% ->75%] => 1% = 3pt / >75% => 1% = 5pt

exotic skill: [0 -> 50%] => 1% = 3pt / [51% ->75%] => 1% = 6pt / >75% => 1% = 9pt

 

- add the characteristic bonus. 

 

 

 

[Malin]

Honestly, any attempt to balance things like this will be a moot point, because to me, it depends less on the exact % you get in skills and more on whether those skills are useful in your local adventuring.

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, Malin said:

Honestly, any attempt to balance things like this will be a moot point, because to me, it depends less on the exact % you get in skills and more on whether those skills are useful in your local adventuring.

Well, yeah... but that also comes down to what type of game is being run. If it's not basically a dungeon crawl/murderhobo game, then hopefully all skills become useful at some stage...