Potato distribution, existance, and origin

[Nick Brooke]

“If I ignore all the evidence from primary sources stating that there are potatoes in Glorantha, it’s clear that there are no potatoes in Glorantha.”

Sure: you do you. Have a nice day.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, John Biles said:

By the Guide -

Fonrit

Kralorela

East Islands, home to the goddess of chili peppers, Orandaliel

Thanks - I believe chili important in Esrolia, but that might be all dried imports.

(One imagines it's harder to grow your own foreign foodstuff in Glorantha as you don't know the proper rituals?)

[Jeff]

20 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Greg Stafford, Sandy Petersen and Steve Perrin all demonstrably thought that Glorantha - and more specifically the Lunar Empire - had potatoes. They've been a feature of Glorantha since the earliest publications (see threads above: White Bear & Red Moon and Cults of Prax both featured Lunar potatoes). 

Jeff Richard thinks the Lunar Empire doesn't have potatoes, because nor did the Roman Empire, and we know that the two are identical in every way. (Or something like that.) So he's tried to retcon potatoes, with hilarious results.

Whatever Nick. If you want potatoes in your Glorantha, go for it. But I am pretty sure there's been none since we had to really think about this stuff in the Guide to Glorantha. And the cookbook has no potatoes in its recipes.

[g33k]

7 minutes ago, Jeff said:

... I am pretty sure there's been none since we had to really think about this stuff in the Guide to Glorantha...

May I ask why it was decided there were no potatoes in Glorantha?

Given the real-world vs fantasy-world situation, I'd think it was 100% a matter of ... err... personal taste.  So to speak.
 

[radmonger]

It seems pretty self-evident to me that potatoes are not the staple food of any mainstream Gloranthan culture, and so don't have the kind of deep mythic roots that grain goddesses do. This leaves them open to be a Lunar innovation, transplanted or resurrected from some obscure or distant location and promoted by the imperial bureaucracy for mytho-strategic reasons.

if you take the  contrary position, you might as well say there is no reliable canonical record of a species of 400m wingspan bat being native to Peloria.

[Martin]

Some peotic irony in that the thread  on potatoes became "Hot" 😉

[Malin]

29 minutes ago, Martin said:

Some poetic irony in that the thread  on potatoes became "Hot"

I did not anticipate that, no, just shows what can happen when you start digging... 🥔

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Martin said:

Some peotic irony in that the thread  on potatoes became "Hot" 😉

Does that mean we should drop it?

[SDLeary]

49 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Does that mean we should drop it?

Nah, just toss it to the next bloke in line! 🙃

Or perhaps pop it open and serve it with a dollop of sour cream and chives.

SDLeary

Edited December 4, 2023 by SDLeary

[Akhôrahil]

It's conceivable that potatoes exist but are nothing special, just another root vegetable. Poor cultivars, weak magical support, and so on. Perhaps slightly better, relatively speaking, in Peloria, enough that they make the impact cited in the thread? 

[Jeff]

Potatoes (at least post Columbian Exchange) are a transformative staple - even more so than maize. They can grow where other grains cannot, and yield about three times the calories per acre than grain does. They allow areas like northern Fronela or the uplands of Ralios to be very productive - which they aren't.

And we already have one transformative grain - maize. It also grows where other grains cannot, and yields about two and a half the calories per acre than wheat or barley does. And to grow maize we have Hon-eel and blood sacrifices. We have nothing similar with the potato, and when Greg and I talked about this in the Guide, we solved it by dropping potatoes entirely.

Part of this might also be that before the Columbian Exchange, potatoes were largely confined to the Andean region, while maize was throughout North and South America - especially in Mesoamerica and North America (which was so influential on Greg's vision of Glorantha). So maize yes, but potatoes no. 

[Joerg]

For an alternative explanation, there might have been a devastating potato blight in the Storm Age, leaving none in the world of Time. For those who want potatoes for her Redness and Blueness, maybe there are potatoes that are protected against that blight by moonglow. E.g. in the sacred gardens of the Reaching Moon temples, giving that theme of potato bread a different angle.

If you want more potatoes, you might take the plot of Jabberwocky and turn it into a massive heroquest. Derobe, enter the underworld, release Gbaji, ride the hummingbird, you know the drill.

[Nozbat]

33 minutes ago, Joerg said:

giving that theme of potato bread a different angle.

I have to say as a (Northern) Irish person... there has to be potato bread... not Kartofflebrot @Joerg (no spelt or rye polluting the glorious taste), but whether you call it fadge, tatie bread, potato farls or boxty (Irish is bacstai) ... its a floury potato bread and delicious, toasted, frilled or fried.. your choice

YGMV... mine has (Norn Iron) potato bread and isn't associated with any foul beasts of chaos

36 minutes ago, Joerg said:

If you want more potatoes, you might take the plot of Jabberwocky and turn it into a massive heroquest.

This is an excellent idea... The Bacstai Myth

[Joerg]

What I meant with that different angle is that potato bread is not something common but (like in Japan) a rare foodstuff, the source of Lunar indoctrination through the Teelo Norri soup kitchens. It would be a communion with the Moon, of sorts, rather than just getting hungry bellies filled with starch (and little else of nutritional value if cooked, and potentially poisonous if not cooked).

[scott-martin]

4 hours ago, Joerg said:

potatoes that are protected against that blight by moonglow. E.g. in the sacred gardens of the Reaching Moon temples, giving that theme of potato bread a different angle.

Love this. Those who want it both ways can simply say the plant doesn't thrive in the Middle World without a dose of precious moon rock. This makes it scarce enough to reserve for priestesses to share with temple beggars in a ritual meal . . . where there are no nearby moon rock deposits or expensive trade route, you will find no proliferation of aloo tikka stands. Presumably someone privileged enough to make it a regular staple would get mighty weird from long-term glow exposure and (a lunar philosophical delicacy) too many wholesome meal options skipped for "food" that doesn't really even exist according to word of god.

This makes the specific theological underpinnings of the Beat Pot Revolt really tasty. Concocting a tuber is a work of great personal spiritual ambition. Demanding that enough of it be grown to satisfy the masses is going to cause trouble . . . and as noted in thread, people who care about maize (I doubt Jar-Eel does) will begrudge the copycat.

[mfbrandi]

On 12/3/2023 at 6:03 PM, scott-martin said:

We could probably find traces of an entheogenic “god carrot” in the dawn ages … Read potato throughout.

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

maybe there are potatoes that are protected against that blight by moonglow.

38 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

someone privileged enough to make it a regular staple would get mighty weird from long-term glow exposure [to] “food” that doesn't really even exist according to word of god.

Gloranthan potatoes are very high in solanine, which is both toxic and hallucinogenic. It is the toxicity that is the problem, not blight.

Moonglow and/or sprinklings of moon dust during cultivation allow feasters to skip the unpleasant, possibly fatal effects while still experiencing the psychedelic effect that promotes religiosity — as IRL psilocybin does, I am told.

Never forget that the Seven Mothers is a proselytising cult.

Edited December 5, 2023 by mfbrandi
spelling!

[Nick Brooke]

Gloranthan bronze isn't the same as our bronze: why do Gloranthan potatoes have to be the same as our potatoes? We know that the Lunars have a root vegetable called the potato, that can be found in army kitchens and charitable food doles. Sandy and others have created entertaining potato and tomato lore for the Empire. Wittering on about the Columbian Exchange and transformative calorie counts doesn't change that. And Sam Gamgee loved fish and chips.

[Nick Brooke]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

What I meant with that different angle is that potato bread is not something common but (like in Japan) a rare foodstuff, the source of Lunar indoctrination through the Teelo Norri soup kitchens. It would be a communion with the Moon, of sorts...

Take, eat. This is her body...

[Malin]

All I am interested in is that this still leaves it all open for my future potato heroquest. There are some interesting darkness/earth tones in potato lore; they grow poisonous if exposed to sunlight. Surely that must mean something.

[svensson]

On 12/3/2023 at 1:50 AM, metcalph said:

No.  There was a mention of potato bread p40 and potatoes p54 in Cults of Prax but these have since been redacted.  

A Goddess of Edible Roots is Thilla (Cults of Runequest: Prosopedia p121).  There will probably be similar goddesses all over gloratha but they have less impact than the grain goddesses.  

 

 

Seriously, how messed up would it be to be 'Carrot Top, Goddess of Spuds'... 🤣😆😁

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

And Sam Gamgee loved fish and chips.

While some people were really angry at the movie for including tomatoes. Which seems a bit odd since the New World ship had already long past sailed with potatoes (like you say) and tobacco.

Interestingly, this was a Tolkien retcon - early writings had tomatoes, which were then excised for unclear reasons (Tom Shippey speculates that it's the word Tolkien didn't like).

Edited December 5, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Malin said:

they grow poisonous if exposed to sunlight. Surely that must mean something.

Yes. The White Moonies say, “Yoking Lunar liberation to a Solar empire makes the Goddess toxic.”

Spoiler

The Blue Moon Assassins say, “Our weapon of choice is the spud gun, so a little sunlight helps us out.”

[John Biles]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

While some people were really angry at the movie for including tomatoes. Which seems a bit odd since the New World ship had already long past sailed with potatoes (like you say) and tobacco.

Interestingly, this was a Tolkien retcon - early writings had tomatoes, which were then excised for unclear reasons (Tom Shippey speculates that it's the word Tolkien didn't like).

Pomatoes would probably cause him to immolate.

[g33k]

14 hours ago, Jeff said:

Potatoes (at least post Columbian Exchange) are a transformative staple - even more so than maize. They can grow where other grains cannot, and yield about three times the calories per acre than grain does. They allow areas like northern Fronela or the uplands of Ralios to be very productive - which they aren't.

And we already have one transformative grain - maize. It also grows where other grains cannot, and yields about two and a half the calories per acre than wheat or barley does. And to grow maize we have Hon-eel and blood sacrifices. We have nothing similar with the potato, and when Greg and I talked about this in the Guide, we solved it by dropping potatoes entirely.

Part of this might also be that before the Columbian Exchange, potatoes were largely confined to the Andean region, while maize was throughout North and South America - especially in Mesoamerica and North America (which was so influential on Greg's vision of Glorantha). So maize yes, but potatoes no. 

Huh.  Given that potatoes -- in the New World -- did not spread and "ruin" (render productive) the harsher environs, the way you feared they would in "areas like northern Fronela or the uplands of Ralios," I remain a bit mystified.   🫤

That they had the capacity to become a staple poorbread for Lunar proselytizing only seems to add to their Gloranthan lore-value.  🤔

<baffled shrug>

But as I requested, you gave us the expanded explanation!
So -- TYVM, this sort of feedback & insight very much is appreciated!  🤗

[g33k]

On 12/3/2023 at 10:19 PM, Malin said:

...

And I think the reason why potatoes are a point of contention (at least for me) is that they are a core staple crop that yet somehow has not left any greater mythic trace in Glorantha. Potatoes are just not another root vegetable; where they become cultivated, they become a bit like rice, community-bearing crops that can feed large amounts of people on more marginal soils without tools other than a pick or a digging stick. Very space efficient too. Unlike beets, carrots, and other roots, they become a core part of food culture. The main calory provider.

I don't think it's a question of "american continent foods," Maize is here, but it also has massive mythical underpinnings so it becomes obvious how important a part it is of Lunar culture. It's not a question of being so entrenched that it can't be removed by "purists," it's a matter of actually fitting into the setting just because it is so entrenched in myth.

And meanwhile, the potato... nothing.

...

If you want potatoes in your Glorantha, it's easy enough to write-in some minor myths.
They aren't a major part of Glorantha, so they won't have major myths associated, nor major deities.

Take a look at the Cults books coming out:  new Gloranthan mythology is being created even in 2023.  So feel free to YGWV however you want to!

If you don't want them (or simply do not much care, one way or another) then don't bother.

Edited December 6, 2023 by g33k