Thed the Earth Witch

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

A few weeks ago, I was participating in a Glorantha discussion on RPG.net, and the topic briefly turned to how to handle Broo in games. I tossed out four paragraphs of an alternate take on Thed (and, thus, the Broo) that happened to strike me as an exercise in YGWV. But Thed refused to let me go, and I’ve been rolling the imagery and implications around in my head since. So I share it here.

[…]

- A mosaic in honor of one of the Grain Goddesses. She holds a sheaf of wheat with impossibly bright purple heads, constructed from chips of amethyst. Her hair is dark and straight, her neck is hidden by copper rings, her smile is regal and haughty, and she has a cow’s tufted tail. The Queen of Heaven holds a circlet of copper above her head, and a smiling white-haired woman holds the train of her dress. At her feet, silver flowers bloom, each one delicate and eight-blossomed. Her free hand makes a mudra of benediction. On either side, the other Grain Goddesses show her honor by lifting their own sheaves to her. The people who made this died long before Time began, and its secrets are lost.
- A charcoal sketch, done as a character study by a thoughtful scribe. The foreground figure is a barefoot woman, her feet and hem caked in bloody mud. Charms and trinkets dangle from her bruised wrists and her tufted tail. Her dark hair hangs limply on her shoulders. Her eyes have been deliberately scuffed out by the artist, creating the illusion of holes dug in yielding earth. She clutches a swaddled child to her chest, fingers cruelly digging into the cloth. One small, chubby, six-fingered hand pokes out of the wrapping, already sporting a fine coat of fur. Behind her are shadowy onlookers, and the distinctive form of an Alynx. Scrawled underneath: “His head, Thunderer. Your brother’s head is my weregild.” The familiarity with Sartarite depictions combined with a shocking willingness to portray the taboo suggests the artist was a Lunar-educated scribe from Dragon Pass.
- A sacrificial tapestry unearthed from the bogs north of Runegate. Earth Witch sits enthroned in the center, wearing her neglected robes and her enveloping headdress of bones and horns; her dark hair is long and unkempt, and her tufted tail coils in her lap. She makes a mudra of malediction with one hand, invoked against the bestial Broos which throng on the margins of the scene, begging for her blessings. Behind her stands a horned silhouette, which the artist has refused to detail; it rests one wrongly-shaped hand on her shoulder. “WE ARE NOT YOUR CHILDREN, BROOMOTHER,” is woven beneath her feet. “TURN YOUR DOOMS AWAY FROM US.” Witch Eyes, ritually gouged, peer out all along the border, entwined within the purple briars.

[…]

The Runes of Thed Broomother are Earth, Life and Chaos. Her grain is lost, for it withered into briars and weeds under the weight of her curses. She hates her children as much as they yearn for her, and she levied the Three Dooms of Thed against them: to gain no sustenance from the good earth, to know no marriage but with beasts, and to know no peace with the world.

This is why they make crops wilt and the earth barren, making no buildings and no good crafts. (Their father showed them how to eat meat and flay skin.) This is why they do unspeakable things with the beasts of the field. (Their father gifted them his insatiable hungers.) This is why they honor no peace. (Their father taught them: violence is always right.)

These Dooms she sealed with the name that was before names, the dark before the dark; the name swelled fruitful within her, and Mallia lifted her legs again to ease the passage, as she did with the Broos. (This is why they revere the Midwife and her gifts, especially White Death-of-Pain.) Thed’s Last Child, whose name is an unclean thing, was the price of her vengeance and its instrument.

Meeting Thed in the Godtime is very perilous. She does not recognize those who interrupt her mourning as anything but her faithless and hateful peers, and she has nothing to offer but curses for them. It would be better for you to die than to bring her curses back to your clan, for they are tainted by Chaos. Pregnant women, proud and bright-eyed men, and new parents are particularly at risk.

The magic of the Mother of Trolls can overcome her, for they fought in the Greater Darkness, and there Thed was chastened. But among the Orlanthi, the ways of Wise Grandmother Serdrodosa are the surest defense against Earth Witch. Serdrodosa was Thed’s handmaiden and teacher until Thed dismissed her at the advice of envious Mallia. Wise Grandmother never taught another student everything she knew, but she still teaches wise women how to trick Thed, how to make good things out of bad, how to fight Mallia, how to speak to sleeping Ernalda, and how to find that which is lost.

Thed is gaunt, and her arms are covered in bruises and open sores. You will know her by her lament, which blights the earth and births thorns and choking weeds. You will know her by her heavy crown of broken goat horns, and by her lashing tufted tail. You will know her by her hidden face, shadowed by her lank hair and her veil of bones. You will know her by the flash of fire in her eyes, only visible for a moment, when she levies doom upon those unfortunate enough to cross her path. For this reason, the Eye of Thed is a terrible symbol, and you must deface it wherever you find it, and if someone curses you with her eye, you must make the sign of Storm Bull’s horns— or, better, wear a horn charm against your skin.

[…]

Influences:

- Arianrhod (gives birth to unwanted children, lays three terrible dooms on them that systematically remove any chance at a normal life, and is treated badly by the protagonists)
- Lilith (punished for refusing sex, becomes a wicked thing known to prey on newborn children, and is known as a symbol of dangerous women)
- The Evil Eye (supernatural malevolence passed on through the eye, which is warded away by apotropaic talismans and gestures, particularly the corna; turned on its side, a yonic symbol)
- Maleficent (“Serdrodosa and the Spindle, or, She is not Dead but Sleeping”)
- Mara, from the Belgariad (famous for dangerous, explosive lamentation and sorrow, which makes her very perilous to meet, as interruption makes her prone to lashing out)
- Orlanthi stereotypes about Women (cold, scheming, spiritually potent, holds a grudge forever)
- Ernalda (or, rather, what Ernalda could be if she grew to hate mankind, and withdrew all of her treasures from their care; they would be like wild Broo, nothing more)

Why is she missing the Spirit Rune?

Because I think she’s more interesting as a dark Earth archetype, a figure of twisted fertility, capable of withholding all of the things that make life good (and, in the process, demonstrating the power and importance of Ernalda), and this whole thing started with “what if she was a Grain Goddess, and now because of Ragnaglar her grain is lost?” She’s still got some shamanistic ties, though, especially in her rivalry with Serdrodosa. Note that I have glossed over Kyger Litor’s Flaying of Thed, which was originally used to explain why she was a Spirit; I felt it was important to keep that victory for Trollmomma, but the imagery of Thed’s debased earthly physicality is too dear to me now.

Wait, isn’t Serdrodosa the Earth Witch?

Well, yes, canonically Serdrodosa is the Earth Witch who taught folks how to worship Ernalda in the Great Darkness and helped Eiritha give birth in the Paps. I realized this at the eleventh hour, but I think I was able to build on that realization; I like the title far too much for this version of Thed to take it back from her. Besides, I like the implicit clan dynamic of “OUR brave and clever wise woman who keeps babies safe, THEIR chaos-dabbling witch who probably made our cows dry up.” My brother has instead suggested naming Thed the Briar Witch to avoid the issue entirely, a suggestion which I’m still considering.

Doesn’t she get back with Ragnaglar?

If she did, only as part of a ritual to birth the Devil— you should be thinking of Morgause seducing Arthur in order to birth Mordred (who is tainted by the circumstances of his birth and grows to destroy his father). But it’s entirely possible that Raggy is just “the father of the Devil” in that he was the one who caused Thed’s descent into invoking Chaos.

Why change Thed at all?

Because she’s a vital part of the Orlanthi concept of how evil was released into the cosmos, and Nick Brooke’s pointed out how her story may shed light on Argrath White Bull, and from a literary standpoint Greg was doing interesting things with the prevalence of sexual assault in mythology— but the thought of telling my friends at the gaming table a story about a sexual assault victim who gets back with her abuser, “willingly submits” to further abuse, and then gets flayed alive as comeuppance makes my stomach turn. On top of that, the only way to make her relevant in play is through the Broo themselves, because she’s an otherwise powerless spirit, and changing the Broo to the No Earth People was another one of my design goals (highlighting the importance of the Earth Pantheon in the process).

[…]

I’d love feedback, sure, but since this is a forum, I’d also love to hear how you’ve handled Thed in your games. Was I wrong about her limited applications? Has she contributed to memorable stories at your table? Have you remixed her in different ways?

Edited March 21 by Tatterdemalion Fox
Trying to fix the formatting

[EricW]

I am concerned this makes Thed too powerful, she was utterly defeated in god time and a remnant of her only survives because of the compromise? 

But a wicked shaman might quest to restore a more powerful Thed hero cult. Restoring Thed would probably make a whole bunch of gods unhappy 

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

Downplaying the severity of her defeat at the hands of Kyger Litor was a deliberate choice, yeah. I envision her serving three real functions in contemporary Glorantha:

- Being a HeroQuest hazard that occasionally wanders into your myth, like meeting Black Arkat’s wardens or Maran Gor dancing with her children. (And the risk of meeting her rises sharply if you’re trying to deal with Broos through mystic means, though maybe a fast-talking servant of Issaries might be able to convince her that their priorities are aligned re: screwing over the Broos.)

- A just-so story about why those awful Broos are the way they are, and a central antagonistic figure in their own initiation rites. (Every young Broo has to try to convince Mom to accept them, and not a one ever has. But what if one managed? Maybe there are Broo Heroes who have the legendary Make Peace Gift or the Eat Bread Gift.)

- An explanation for a rash of ill luck among a clan. Maybe one of Thed’s evil glances fell our way! Time to break out the marred eye talismans and wave the horns until the shaman thinks she’s been driven off, just like you do when you think Mallia’s been sharing her gifts.

[davecake]

On 12/10/2023 at 8:12 AM, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

Maybe there are Broo Heroes who have the legendary Make Peace Gift or the Eat Bread Gift.

Maybe Ralzakark is such a Hero? 
Or the Cleansed One? 

[Oldskolgmr]

The Cleansed One is such an interesting bit character. I have only ever heard a line or two about him.

 

[Joerg]

Rather than a grain goddess, I see Thed originally as one of the animal mothers like (the daughters of) Eiritha or Nevala (the sheep mother). Thed is obviously connected to goats, possibly originally with some of the Vadrudi tribes.

Broo are the offspring of Ragnaglar and Thed when both of them were regular deities of their respective categories. Non-chaotic Broo early in the Storm Age were little different from Storm Bull's Minotaurs.

That changed when Ragnaglar (already psydhically traumatized from his failure at initiation) and Thed (as a traumatized victim of his trauma-induced insanity) conspired with Mallia to incarnate the Devil in their collective child (Wakboth) after interpreting Rashoran's message in their revenge-ridden way.

 

Much like with Vivamort, the question is whether such earlier not-yet-chaotic experiences of the deity can be contacted, or whether a turn to the Chaos pantheon overwrites all initiatory access to such a deity.

In case of Mallia, there is a possibility of propitiative initiation bypassing the Chaos link, approaching her through her original element of Darkness. While Mallia doesn't provide herd immunity against that specific disease, she offers survival in infection, and with a herd immunity building up in naturally healing-overcome diseases or magically treated ones, being infectious at some point becomes a non-event if nobody attracts the disease any more. RQ diseases follow a simplistic scheme describing a general set of symptoms depending on the pathogenicity which comes in levels, rather than our world's mutating cell lines we have disease spirit lineages from propagation which may be less diverse and harder to ummunize against. But enough of the Mistress of Diseases and Midwife of Wakboth.

[Darius West]

On 12/10/2023 at 5:58 AM, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

I’d love feedback, sure, but since this is a forum, I’d also love to hear how you’ve handled Thed in your games. Was I wrong about her limited applications? Has she contributed to memorable stories at your table? Have you remixed her in different ways?

Joerg is correct from my readings on Thed.  She was not an Earth Deity at all, and certainly not an Earth Witch; she was an Animal Goddess like Eiritha.  She was also a nasty character who sought to seduce Orlanth and have sex with him by deception, which is rape, and as a result was served up to Storm Bull who prolapsed her.  Instead she chose Ragnaglar as her consort.  Ragnaglar, of course, had been driven mad in the Sex Pits during his initiation, failing it, where the other sons of Umath had succeeded.  This pair also met up with Malia to become the Unholy Trio, and having murdered Rashoran after hearing his message went and polluted the Font of the Primal Plasma, creating the Chaosium of today.

Thed should be a broken remnant of her former self.  This is because Kyger Litor killed and skinned her, turning Thed's skin into a drum.  This is also why Thed has a spirit rune, as she no longer has a body, and she is just a malignant spirit.  Of course Daka Fal likes Thed, despite her chaotic associations, as she is an ancestor deity like Kygr Litor.

I think the most memorable use of Thed was during my Tovtari Campaign.  The characters had built a palisade and then built a stead in it, some few miles north of Ironspike.  About a year later, their investment in time, livestock and money was put to the test when they were forced to defend their stead against a chaos horde of hundreds of Broos risen up from Snakepipe Hollow.  The Broo force was mainly heading to Ironspike but a good number of them stayed to attack the stead.  Their banners featured the skin of a wild goat with the withered uterus somehow still attached, and they bleated Thed's name in a repetitious chant.  Everything was going well, and the characters had repelled a couple of attacks of leaping Broos attacking towards the gate when the chanting stopped and the field went silent.  Then, without warning, a shrill cry went up in Chaos Speech and three of the palings on the palisade Cracked as per the Thed rune spell and the Broos rushed the breach.  It was a desperate fight where an improvised shield wall had to repel the onslaught.  It was a hard enough fight that the Chalana Arroy seriously considered violating her vows and slaying injured broos.  As it is, she needed all her RP to resurrect the fallen Orlanthi, and the party Humakti lost an arm before the horde were driven off and slain.  

 

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

On 12/11/2023 at 12:14 AM, davecake said:

Maybe Ralzakark is such a Hero? 
Or the Cleansed One? 

The Three-and-One Path: A horde of Broo has swept out of Dorastor into Tarsh, where they have... encamped? The Seven Mothers cult is overjoyed to see that Ralzakark the Broo King has come to challenge the King of Tarsh to a series of magically potent contests, clearly proof of how the Lunar Way is saving these poor, benighted creatures. What could be better than a few games between Imperial allies? Except, concerningly, Broo emissaries are also being sent to the Feathered Horse Queen. Except, concerningly, the Broo seem to be praying and offering up sacrifices to Ralzakark's victory. Except, concerningly, you know the story of How Orlanth Married Ernalda just as well as the Lord of Dorastor does. Ralzakark is walking the Hero Path, and while his motives might be benign - for he claims privately that this is the only way to begin to break the curses that lie upon the Broo, to gain the blessing of the Earth from Sor-ann-Ator - the risk of the Nameless Brother being conflated with mighty Orlanth in a kingdom-sized Hero Quest is too great. All of Kerofinela might be as cursed and blasted as Dorastor if he is victorious (at least, according to the clan shamans). So go and stop him from losing the Three Contests and winning the Last, or one of the Chaos Tribe might yet become... King of Dragon Pass!

On 12/11/2023 at 6:28 AM, Oldskolgmr said:

The Cleansed One is such an interesting bit character. I have only ever heard a line or two about him.

That way lies a path into the mysteries of the Three Bean Circus.

On 12/11/2023 at 6:43 AM, Joerg said:

Rather than a grain goddess, I see Thed originally as one of the animal mothers like (the daughters of) Eiritha or Nevala (the sheep mother). Thed is obviously connected to goats, possibly originally with some of the Vadrudi tribes.

Broo are the offspring of Ragnaglar and Thed when both of them were regular deities of their respective categories. Non-chaotic Broo early in the Storm Age were little different from Storm Bull's Minotaurs.

That changed when Ragnaglar (already psydhically traumatized from his failure at initiation) and Thed (as a traumatized victim of his trauma-induced insanity) conspired with Mallia to incarnate the Devil in their collective child (Wakboth) after interpreting Rashoran's message in their revenge-ridden way.

This suggests terrible things about the tribes of Imther. Who knows what horrors lurk inside those cheeses?

(I will admit that the Death of Rashoran is something I have not yet integrated into this myth structure, except in the sense that the Trio are all Occluded; behold the barren, hedonistic nihilism of the Nameless Brother and the Lost Daughter's embrace of Chaos to achieve her ends, no matter the price. I know the secret that That One discovered at the bottom of the pit: it is named I Deserve This, and This Makes Me More Of A Man, and Storm-Opens-Earth.)

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

Joerg is correct from my readings on Thed.  She was not an Earth Deity at all, and certainly not an Earth Witch; she was an Animal Goddess like Eiritha.  She was also a nasty character who sought to seduce Orlanth and have sex with him by deception, which is rape, and as a result was served up to Storm Bull who prolapsed her.  Instead she chose Ragnaglar as her consort.  Ragnaglar, of course, had been driven mad in the Sex Pits during his initiation, failing it, where the other sons of Umath had succeeded.  This pair also met up with Malia to become the Unholy Trio, and having murdered Rashoran after hearing his message went and polluted the Font of the Primal Plasma, creating the Chaosium of today.

Thed should be a broken remnant of her former self.  This is because Kyger Litor killed and skinned her, turning Thed's skin into a drum.  This is also why Thed has a spirit rune, as she no longer has a body, and she is just a malignant spirit.  Of course Daka Fal likes Thed, despite her chaotic associations, as she is an ancestor deity like Kygr Litor.

This is, I suppose, another way to collapse the uncomfortable waveform: to double down on She Deserved It, to introduce more punitive sexual humiliation through violence into the myth cycle (at the hooves of Storm Bull, a player-available deity, rather than by the god who saw the secret of sex-is-power at the bottom of the pit), to embrace the myth of How Uz Make Drums, and to implicitly approve of it all. Perhaps this is a variant from Saird, which has had some cultural cross-pollination with Dara Happa up the river, which understands well how the weakness of women facilitated the existence of evil.

(And, yes, at the Watsonian level, Thed has the Spirit Rune in Baseline Glorantha because she was flayed by Kyger Litor; I admitted as such. At the Doylist level, is there a compelling argument for keeping that association, if one is willing to view Glorantha as an invitation to engage in mythopoeia alongside Stafford? I doubt she has often been used as a shamanic antagonist. What does Thed-as-Spirit say as part of the narrative, and is what it says worth carrying forward at my table? I think there's something interesting to her being defeated at the hands of Kyger Litor, and what that might say about trolls and women, but the Crimson Bat was flayed, too; before then it was the Bat-with-its-Skin.)

Edited December 17, 2023 by Tatterdemalion Fox

[soltakss]

For me, I don't really see Thed as one of the Grain Goddesses, it doesn't fit. However, she might have been associated with a grain at some point, who knows? I see her as being, like many, an animal goddess, associated with goats and then Broo. She is a Wronged Goddess, for she was abused and denied justice, so she took her revenge in the worst possible way. You could see her story as entirely that of a victim, or you could see her story as purely about vengeance, but I think that it is more nuanced than that.

[jajagappa]

41 minutes ago, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

This suggests terrible things about the tribes of Imther. Who knows what horrors lurk inside those cheeses?

Molds, worms, ... - they're all secrets gained from Darkness to both survive the Great Darkness and keep Chaos at bay. Eat more cheese! 😉 

[mfbrandi]

22 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Molds, worms, …

And mites (harmless, as far as I know).

And jumping maggots that can — it says here, anyway — survive in your intestines and cause havoc. I suppose flystrike was one inspiration for broo reproduction, and is firstborn of . Never accept a cheese sandwich from Ralzakark or Nietzsche — perhaps you survive in the Darkness but maybe the Darkness survives in you.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Goats are primarily browsers, aren't they? Could she hypothetically have been a "grain goddess" of leaves and shoots for the goats? Quite the stretch, I acknowledge.

I really like OP's reinterpretation. Adding new perspectives is always cool, and this is a fascinating idea. 

This made me briefly consider the idea that there was a "Ragnaglari" perspective where Ragnaglar and Thed were the REAL King and Queen of the world/Storm Tribe until everything went to shit. Or some enterprising Chaos cultist invent this as a scenario, a bit like the bad guys from Elder Scrolls Oblivion.

[mfbrandi]

39 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

This made me briefly consider the idea that there was a "Ragnaglari" perspective where Ragnaglar and Thed were the REAL King and Queen of the world/Storm Tribe until everything went to shit.

Well … we are familiar with the disintegration of Yelm and Yelm’s re-integration/illumination — the shining one is now at peace with himself, reconciling opposites — but what about the disintegration of Storm/Umath? The “family” of Umath as unreconciled Storm fragments. Now Storm is at war with itself (disguised as the war on drugs terrorism Chaos) and dragging the rest of us to Hell in its wake. Storm must re-integrate its dark, cold, deadly, and chaotic fragments if we are to know peace? But maybe the climate is just not right for that, and winter will always be Hell. Who knows? Not I. 😉

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

Sometimes you will find the Nameless Brother during an initiation, or something that has his face, at any rate. Down in the Pit, or in Orlanth’s hall, there he will find you, and he will offer you instruction. He is handsome, and he is well-shaped, and his eyes and hair are wonderfully dark. He wears woad and honors won in battle. Like men you might know, he is funny and easy to like; like men you might know, it is impossible to ignore that he would hurt you without blinking, if you gave him any reason to. He knows how to say things that sound familiar, but that is a trick, too; if you listen to him, he will teach you the Storm-Opens-Earth charm, or the Goatherder Song, or the Law of Victory, or the I Hungered I Ate secret. These are things you cannot forget once you know them, and which only the best men can overcome. Trick him if you can, get your back to a wall and your arms over your face if you cannot. Do you think Heort never knew pain? But pain fades.

(And if you were to ask him about Thed, he might shrug, and smile, and say: turns out she wasn’t too good for me, after all.)

Sometimes you find him on the road to the Devil, instead. There is no safe way past that we know. Some of you will do as he asks, like Storm Bull did, out of disgust or fury or pity, and your hands will be stained. Others of you will remember Orlanth’s Laws, and tell him that Kinstrife is no small thing. But he will goad you cruelly, he will call Chaos down on your head, he will beg for the world to drown under the weight of nothing, and his voice will break as he screams for you to come back. You will remember what was done to him, afterwards, when you try to sleep. Then the Star Heart will flicker within you, and you will remember why we all fight the Predark.

[…]

There was, there was not.

When the woman we are speaking about came to the camp called Gagarth, she was wearing the necklace named Seseine. Her breast was smeared with saffron, and her hair was garlanded with flowers from her father’s house. Copper anklets were on her feet and fine gems were her bracelets. As I said, she wore the necklace named Seseine.

So she was, and she threw herself at the feet of the Nameless Brother. From her came forth a torrent of words: that ever since he had shown her his Storm-Opens-Earth charm, she had been overcome with yearning both day and night— that she had been tricked by false friends into testifying against him before the Law Staff— that she had sent them away, and kept only Little Poison Tongue as her thrall— that she was his thrall by way of enchantment, and that she would be his prize both day and night, if only he would have her. And she brought with her gifts, too: the feast that Little Poison Tongue had prepared, and fine furs stitched into mantles, and a dragon which danced in the winds to be his herald, and the doll named Rush Urn, and five copper boxes, each with their keys.

So the Nameless Brother gorged himself upon that feast, and the best of the meat he kept for himself. As he did this, she danced in the center of the camp, and she sang praise to the King of Gagarth, and her feet were bare on the earth. The light that glittered off the necklace named Seseine could be seen in all directions then, and he could see nothing else. So he withdrew into his tent to show her his magic again, to do what they could do with each other.

Only, they began as before, with him on top, but when he grew weary, she climbed on top of him. The flowers fell from her hair, which was the curtain of their bed in the camp called Gagarth, and she spoke this spell over him:

Before heaven,
Before earth,
Before the waters,
Before the dark,
Nothing moved on nothing,
Nothing entered into nothing.
Before the gods,
Before the runes,
Before me,
Before you,
Nothing moved on nothing,
Nothing entered into nothing.
Look into my hand.
What, do you not know that Death is in Life?

And he saw that Death was hidden inside of Life, then. And he would have killed her, then, only that the food he had eaten turned into a trick inside him. And he rolled over and voided himself, then.

This is called Earth-Smothers-Storm.

Then the woman we are speaking about emerged from the tent, and Little Poison Tongue was squatting over the coals. They departed together to the little square house that had been prepared. The Nameless Brother followed after them with a howling gale, only, Great Bubar barred the way and would not let him pass. And in her father’s country, the woman we are speaking about rubbed ocher onto her belly and spoke this spell over it:

Before heaven,
Before earth,
Before the waters,
Before the dark,
Nothing moved on nothing,
Nothing entered into nothing.
Before the gods,
Before the runes,
Before me,
Before you,
Nothing moved on nothing,
Nothing entered into nothing.
Look into my hand.
What, do you not know that Death is in Life?

[scott-martin]

On 12/9/2023 at 1:58 PM, Tatterdemalion Fox said:

She holds a sheaf of wheat with impossibly bright purple heads

Love it throughout. Sad to have been away when this was going on the first time. This is obviously one of the edible amaranths, possibly with an unfortunate / opportunistic passenger like claviceps purpurea . . . the witch grain, the trick in the food that makes the body sick and the mind swoon. No wonder she's so intimate with Malia! 

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

This is obviously one of the edible amaranths, possibly with an unfortunate / opportunistic passenger like claviceps purpurea . . . the witch grain, the trick in the food that makes the body sick and the mind swoon.

And you improve on this immeasurably with one sentence. Stolen, eaten, incorporated as a mytheme.

[Ynneadwraith]

Just awesome work all of this!

On 12/17/2023 at 11:52 AM, Darius West said:

Thed should be a broken remnant of her former self. 

Perhaps Tatterdemalion's interpretation of Thed is a broken remnant of her former self.

A cosmic horror glimpse that the Thed of the Greater Darkness was even more terrifying.

On 12/18/2023 at 4:27 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

This made me briefly consider the idea that there was a "Ragnaglari" perspective where Ragnaglar and Thed were the REAL King and Queen of the world/Storm Tribe until everything went to shit. Or some enterprising Chaos cultist invent this as a scenario, a bit like the bad guys from Elder Scrolls Oblivion.

This I like.

All it needs is a hint that the Storm Tribe of old used to practice ultimogeniture. Spin a myth that Umath did not want to inflict the hardships of his childhood on his own children. The eldest were strong enough to fight for a place within the world, but the youngest should be cared for with a place of their own ready for them (unlike his elder siblings Sky and Earth, who took all the space in the world and left none for him).*

Add in the rest of the story and it gives a nicely Orlanthi-feeling parable about not following unsuitable leaders, even if the rules say you should. Yes Ragnaglar and Thed might be the rightful heirs, but...yeesh! Let's have someone else please...

Add into the mix @Sir_Godspeed's varied Ygg worldview, where they believe that Ygg is the rightful heir (through Vadrus as eldest) and you get another neat Storm Tribe Falls Apart myth which feels very apropos to any culture that's ever had an unclear inheritance situation cause a succession crisis, as surely the Orlanthi have.

*Though I would like to preserve the possibility that it's all a fabricated plot, because mystery

[Ali the Helering]

I think the Vadrudi have a case to make concerning Orlanth's perfidious defeat of The Boss.  All in all, this simply reinforces my idea that Orlanth is a Godlearner-imposed nonsense, and that Greg wrote him as such.

[Joerg]

59 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

I think the Vadrudi have a case to make concerning Orlanth's perfidious defeat of The Boss.  All in all, this simply reinforces my idea that Orlanth is a Godlearner-imposed nonsense, and that Greg wrote him as such.

IMO Orlanth is a lesser Storm entity (probably a demigod) who rose high above his station, replacing one of the primary five sons of Umath amd inheriting his deeds. This may have happened in the Gods War, possibly an achievement of Ernalda on a local scale (Kerofinela). The Dawn Age saw the Theyalan missionaries replace other such lesser entities with Orlanth, and the God Learners took the Theyalan construct and applied it elsewhere on the Lozenge.

[Ali the Helering]

42 minutes ago, Joerg said:

IMO Orlanth is a lesser Storm entity (probably a demigod) who rose high above his station, replacing one of the primary five sons of Umath amd inheriting his deeds. This may have happened in the Gods War, possibly an achievement of Ernalda on a local scale (Kerofinela). The Dawn Age saw the Theyalan missionaries replace other such lesser entities with Orlanth, and the God Learners took the Theyalan construct and applied it elsewhere on the Lozenge.

IMG the 'names' of deities are more often a title, imposed on a multitude of local deities.

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

44 minutes ago, Joerg said:

IMO Orlanth is a lesser Storm entity (probably a demigod) who rose high above his station, replacing one of the primary five sons of Umath amd inheriting his deeds. This may have happened in the Gods War, possibly an achievement of Ernalda on a local scale (Kerofinela). The Dawn Age saw the Theyalan missionaries replace other such lesser entities with Orlanth, and the God Learners took the Theyalan construct and applied it elsewhere on the Lozenge.

And the name of that demigod? Armin Tamzarian.

But when Orlanth sought to destroy it, Wakboth parried, and with a single stab he cut Orlanth into forty-eight pieces. Any lesser god would have gone into all forty-nine. But as it was, Orlanth was barely able to blow out of there.

Even so, if this Orlanth was involved in the Lifebringer’s Quest, we can respect the classic “imposter lives up to their lie” narrative.

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

Now, I am sure that some of you have said to yourselves: “Tatters, you ignorant elura, grain goddesses are intimately connected to the geography of Genertela! You can’t just make up one that’s been lost without ripple effect changes all across Genertela! Send that Thed right back to herding goats where she belongs.” And firstly? That’s fluffy tail discrimination, and Ura willing you will all be punished for your crimes. But secondly, I don’t have an answer for that.

I’ve got three.

Answer 1: Thedela is underneath the Rozgali Sea. This is the painless slots-right-into-the-canon option, and it's got a sense of narrative to it, too. Events that Thed herself helped instigate mean that everything that used to be hers is tir-far-thóinn, land under wave. I can envision Broo idly picking through pottery shards and stones washed up on the shores of Prax, perhaps keeping them as charms or incorporating them into fetishes.

Answer 2: there is a perfectly good wasteland right next to Dragon Pass, isn’t there? Thed’s first appearance in the canon was in Nomad Gods, wasn’t it? Maybe when Tada went out to fight Ragnaglar, there was something personal on the line, having watched the purple-headed grain die out all along the Zola Fel, or worse, become a thick tangle of briars and swampland. We can only speculate on what creatures died out without their preferred food being available. This is a spicy enough option, but we can go deeper.

Answer 3: The Battle of Earthfall was very personal for Wakboth. Coming home always is.

[Sir_Godspeed]

On 3/22/2024 at 1:08 AM, Ynneadwraith said:

All it needs is a hint that the Storm Tribe of old used to practice ultimogeniture. Spin a myth that Umath did not want to inflict the hardships of his childhood on his own children. The eldest were strong enough to fight for a place within the world, but the youngest should be cared for with a place of their own ready for them (unlike his elder siblings Sky and Earth, who took all the space in the world and left none for him).*

 

No need to invoke a set birth order. These things are flexible. In a Ragnaglari/pre-Chaos Broo mythos, maybe Ragnaglar was the firstborn. There's no need for a 1=1 relation between different mythologies. 

 

On another note, while Thed and Ragnaglar are associated with goats, it also seems like Ragnaglar may be associated with antlered animals like elks, moose and reindeer? This pops up in the Six Ages video game, and in his model for the Gods War tabletop game. I'm not sure what the basis of this is, but I'm interested to hear if anyone knows anything more.
 

[Runeblogger]

On 3/23/2024 at 3:33 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

On another note, while Thed and Ragnaglar are associated with goats, it also seems like Ragnaglar may be associated with antlered animals like elks, moose and reindeer? This pops up in the Six Ages video game, and in his model for the Gods War tabletop game. I'm not sure what the basis of this is, but I'm interested to hear if anyone knows anything more.
 

OK, this is a spoiler for the Six Ages video game:

Spoiler

In Six Ages: Ride Like the Wind (set during the early Darkness), the Antler Society is a mysterious society of shamans who work outside any clan and worship forest spirits. They use for example Elk spirits, but later on, they claim the breaking of the sky is not to be feared, just a sign of a big transformation that is coming. Yeah, sure... Then in Six Ages: Lights Going Out (set in the Greater Darkness), it is revealed that the Antler Society are now broos. So my take is that these shamans were worshipping Ragnaglar without really knowing it at first, and they slowly were corrupted into becoming the first broo. A sort of corrupted Elk-Hsunchen.

Maybe they thought they were worshipping Horned Man, and then Ragnaglar stepped in.

(Art by Simon Roy)

Edited March 24 by Runeblogger

[Ironwall]

8 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

On another note, while Thed and Ragnaglar are associated with goats, it also seems like Ragnaglar may be associated with antlered animals like elks, moose and reindeer? This pops up in the Six Ages video game, and in his model for the Gods War tabletop game. I'm not sure what the basis of this is, but I'm interested to hear if anyone knows anything more.

Isn't the animal associated with Ragnlagar different depending on region? I could have sworn seeing that somewhere. Like praxians think he's a sheep, heortling a Goat, pelorian an antelope.