Busarian and Lhankor Mhy

[Richard S.]

3 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

If you have differnt Myths, how can you be the same God?

What myths do they have that directly contradict each other? And even then, the godtime being contradictory and nonlinear is an already established fact so I don't see how it disproves anything. The fact of the matter is that the official stance has Lhankor Mhy and Buserian as the same god - you can call it a retcon, have it be different in your Glorantha, but at this point it can't be disputed within the context of published Glorantha.

[g33k]

40 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

If you have differnt Myths, how can you be the same God?

If it helps our poor mortal brain, perhaps it's better to think of it as different regions knowing of different myths.
Or maybe the god (for their own reasons) responds differently in different places.

Or they're just being F'ing  ineffable.

Edited December 19, 2023 by g33k

[Richard S.]

On the topic of same/different god debates...

Edited December 19, 2023 by Richard S.

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

f you have differnt Myths, how can you be the same God?

 

https://www.ranker.com/list/best-movies-about-abraham-lincoln/ranker-film

 

Lists 15 movies about one historical figure. In some of them he is president, in some a lawyer, in some a young man, in others a corpse. In one he is a vampire hunter, in another he battles zombies.

None of the movies are entirely true. But more than one contains enough elements of truth that if true movies gave rune magic for watching them, you could build up quite the rune pool.

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by radmonger

[Godlearner]

Sounds like the basic Godlearner monomyth. 

I approve!!!

[davecake]

On 12/17/2023 at 9:38 AM, Ian_W said:

If I was a God Learner building a god to help steal mythic power off barbarians, I'd build something that looks a lot like the Third Age Llankor Mhy

There is, of course, a wide suspicion that this is, to a significant extent, exactly what happened. Suitably vague divine ancestry lets the borders between Lhankor Mhy and Tadenit be mythically blurred, sorcery is ‘cleansed’ of its enemy associations through exploring appropriate myths and dedicated heroquesting, LM has cult strictures set such that one can remain a Sage and also easily follow Zzaburi caste rules, and so on. And a Zzaburi can now just claim to be a funny foreign Sage.

Issaries also we already know to be connected to the Seshnegi nobility. And has that cool Spell Trading thing, Path Watch is an awesome HeroQuest spell too, and the cult is known to carefully collect maps of the underworld. They don’t even seem to be forbidden to use sorcery. Handy.

And then there was a little bit of snap back in the wake of the God Learners fall. Now some Lhankor Mhy prefer to work their sorcery exclusively in Theyalan script (via the Alien Combination Machine, which is SO obviously a God Learner artifact) to shield themselves from associations, both historical and magical, with the perfidious God Learning meldeks that everyone and everything seems to want to kill. Which does rather restrict their sorcery access for the most part. But you keep those forbidden books tucked away in the library just in case. A 17th century Lhankor Mhy who wishes to go delving into God Learner magical secrets probably just needs to learn Western and get access to the secret library catalog (providing it’s the right library - Nochet, for example, which was altogether suspiciously close to the Clanking City/God Forgot). 
 

Claiming LM is the (child? Brother?) of Mostal probably comes in handy for stealing their magical secrets too. 

 

[JonathanQuaife]

Buserian and Lhankor My are clearly different deities. Here's one of Greg's allusions to the former...

"Erindamus is little worshipped, but serves various Dara Happan gods in several myths, especially those of hunting. Erindamus is little-known to any except the Buserian Star Seers. Erindamus was set into the southern sky by Dayzatar. Myths say when dogs were tamed by Yelm or Lodril the star disappeared. However, the Star Seers can see stars in the daytime and know that Eridamus only rises in daylight, and is invisible."

So here there are clear references to how followers of Buserian approach the world - by looking at the sky - and to their magic - which allows them to see the stars in daylight. Both of these things are a country mile from what we know about Lhankor Mhy.

In addition, treating LM and Buserian as the same deity is sooooo *boring*. Glorantha has never been about dumbing down: instead the ironies and ramifications of contradictions and unexpected outcomes are a key theme. What seems inconceivable often turns out to be true for somebody, somewhere...

[David Scott]

The four paragraphs on Busarian and Irripi Ontor in Lightbringers will be eclipsed by the revelation in The Lunar Way, that the solar Buserian cult was fully integrated into the cult of Irrippi Ontor. That was 340 years ago...  The Irripi Ontor cult write up, while clearly related to Lhankor Mhy (sages, lores, spirit magic, etc) is not Lhankor Mhy (who has no Lunar sorcery or Mindblast abilities). Two onlookers watching a Brown Sage and a Sage debating the same lore skill would be hard pressed to tell them apart. 

[Godlearner]

12 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Two onlookers watching a Brown Sage and a Sage debating the same lore skill would be hard pressed to tell them apart. 

And the only thing I really care about in terms of the current game, do they have access to the same Rune Spells.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, JonathanQuaife said:

Both of these things are a country mile from what we know about Lhankor Mhy.

Why? It is just celestial lore. 

1 hour ago, JonathanQuaife said:

"Erindamus is little worshipped, but serves various Dara Happan gods in several myths, especially those of hunting. Erindamus is little-known to any except the Buserian Star Seers. Erindamus was set into the southern sky by Dayzatar. Myths say when dogs were tamed by Yelm or Lodril the star disappeared. However, the Star Seers can see stars in the daytime and know that Eridamus only rises in daylight, and is invisible."

Having worked with Greg on creating Erindamus, I don't think there is anything in that short text to suggest that Buserian is or isn't LM.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

And the only thing I really care about in terms of the current game, do they have access to the same Rune Spells.

[Jeff]

And this illustrates the problem relying heavily on Greg's deep background material that is largely set over a thousand years before the present. It is like trying to make sense of Alexander's Macedon while relying primarily on Linear B sources.

[PhilHibbs]

The most important question, though is if an Irrippi Ontor worshipper comes to an Lhankor Mhy temple, can they worship without a beard?

[Jeff]

In the end, it might be easier to ignore the names and go with titles. We have The Knowing God, who invented writing and is the god of scribes. He has many names - Lhankor Mhy, Buserian, etc., but whenever we pray for the source of Knowledge, we pray to him. He showed us how to catalogue and organise information. But most importantly he showed us how to record things so that knowledge would not be lost.

In the Third Age, a priest of the Knowing God joined the conspiracy of the Seven Mothers. He gained secret knowledge and madness in the process. Although he was a mortal man, he became a god through the Red Goddess. We Lunars worship him because he knows the secrets of the Knowing God AND his own secrets gained from the Red Goddess. Traditionalists and barbarians continue to worship the Knowing God, but we can get further with the Brown Sage than they can with the Knowing God alone.

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

we can get further with the Brown Sage than they can with the Knowing God alone.

As i see it, you can follow Buserian up until the point Yelm died.

Or you can follow Lhankor Mhy on the first Lightbringer's Quest, up to the point of the Great Compromise. 

Or you can follow Irripi Ontor on the _Second_ Lightbringer's Quest, to the Amended Compromise.

It's one linear narrative, albeit involving a sequence of characters inheriting their predecessor's legacy and titles. Like any reader of the Dune books, you get to stop where you like, and can say 'everything after that is non canon.

[JonathanQuaife]

4 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Why? It is just celestial lore. 

Having worked with Greg on creating Erindamus, I don't think there is anything in that short text to suggest that Buserian is or isn't LM.

Well, of course you could take that perspective. For me it pretty clearly sets out that Buserian magic allows his worshippers to see the "night-time" sky in the daytime...

[JonathanQuaife]

5 hours ago, David Scott said:

The four paragraphs on Busarian and Irripi Ontor in Lightbringers will be eclipsed by the revelation in The Lunar Way, that the solar Buserian cult was fully integrated into the cult of Irrippi Ontor. That was 340 years ago...  The Irripi Ontor cult write up, while clearly related to Lhankor Mhy (sages, lores, spirit magic, etc) is not Lhankor Mhy (who has no Lunar sorcery or Mindblast abilities). Two onlookers watching a Brown Sage and a Sage debating the same lore skill would be hard pressed to tell them apart. 

So, yes, that is an editorial choice that's been made. It's just a particularly boring one. 😀  A Buserian star gazing cult would be much more interesting.

[JonathanQuaife]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

And this illustrates the problem relying heavily on Greg's deep background material that is largely set over a thousand years before the present. It is like trying to make sense of Alexander's Macedon while relying primarily on Linear B sources.

As noted in response to David's point - any editorial decision has a justification. That fact doesn't make the decision the most interesting option.

[Richard S.]

If you want Buseri to have stargazing abilities, maybe you could let them learn Find Stars as a variant of Find (Substance). It could mark out where stars are in the daytime, and even show invisible ones. But maybe that's stretching the spell too much, since stars are definitely well outside the normal rune magic range. YGMV.

[JonathanQuaife]

On 12/19/2023 at 10:00 PM, Richard S. said:

What myths do they have that directly contradict each other? And even then, the godtime being contradictory and nonlinear is an already established fact so I don't see how it disproves anything. The fact of the matter is that the official stance has Lhankor Mhy and Buserian as the same god - you can call it a retcon, have it be different in your Glorantha, but at this point it can't be disputed within the context of published Glorantha.

There are lots of examples of contradicting myths ... but these are best seen as mysteries than contradictions, so they're just part of the gig. From memory, the example that springs to mind are the two stories that describe the slaying of Aroka - one featuring Orlanth and the other (IIRC) Vadrus.

[metcalph]

The mythology cult distributions are interesting.  In the Lunar Heartlands, Buserian is not listed but Lhankhor Mhy is.  

For example: cults as per the footnote. 

• Doblian 1%
• Karasal 1%
• First Blessed 2%
• Kostaddi 1%
• Oraya 1%
• Oronin 1%
• Silver Shadow 1%
• [Sylila - 0%]
• [Western Reaches - 1%]

Now I had thought this was Buserian listed under Lhankor Mhy but the statement that Buserian has been subsumed into Irrippi Ontor makes this quite curious.  It wouldn't be Irrippi Ontor as those people are listed under the Seven Mothers cults as per the footnote.  The absence of any Lhankorings in Sylila suggests that it's not spillover from the Lunar Provinces.  

So the following possibilities arise:

• The footnote was not intended to apply to the cult of the knowing god.
• The figures represent a Carmanian (or some other) version of the knowing god.  Doubful for it would demote the Ontorits to a minority sect of the knowing god which would be silly for the Lunar Empire.

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, David Scott said:

Get the feeling that Irrippi Ontor is really  a subcult of Buserian rather than providing all rune magics in his own right.  Think the same might apply to the other Seven Mothers and Lunar Gods.  For example: Yanafal/Humakt, Deezola/(Dendara/Ernalda), Etyries/Issaries, Jakaleel/Horned Man.

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Get the feeling that Irrippi Ontor is really  a subcult of Buserian rather than providing all rune magics in his own right.  Think the same might apply to the other Seven Mothers and Lunar Gods.  For example: Yanafal/Humakt, Deezola/(Dendara/Ernalda), Etyries/Issaries, Jakaleel/Horned Man.

I think there is an overstatement as to what fully integrated means. It means that Irrippi Ontor is housed in the old scribal archives - aka the Knowledge Temples. In new cities we built new Knowledge Temples and dedicated them to Irrippi Ontor, but the old scribes are perfectly entitled to use them as well. When we rebuilt our cities in the Fifth Wane, we did that as well. And there are often advantages to using an Knowing God scribe - their neutrality can be a tremendous advantage at times.

Now likely this means that the Dara Happan written language is largely ceremonial, with New Pelorian being the language of culture. Meanwhile plenty of scribes learn Theyalan, and texts are translated from Theyalan into New Pelorian (and vice versa). 

[David Scott]

15 hours ago, JonathanQuaife said:

A Buserian star gazing cult would be much more interesting.

15 hours ago, Richard S. said:

If you want Buseri to have stargazing abilities...

Fortunately the IO cult is a stargazing one, complete with Planet and Constellation based sky sorcery, and forms the basis for Lunar Chronomancy.

Edited January 3 by David Scott

[Godlearner]

22 hours ago, David Scott said:

For my game, it means they are separate cults and do not share temples and one cannot use Worship to replenish their Rune Pools from each others temples.