Busarian and Lhankor Mhy

[Darius West]

According to the new Cults of RQ: Lighbringers on page 75, the Cult of Buserian is the same as Lhankor Mhy.  Apparently they aren't separate deities anymore.  The only difference is that Buserian is associated with the Yelm Pantheon, not the Lightbringers. Go figure.  I had always personally imagined them as being really quite different, with Buserian worshippers being deeply interested in filing systems and astronomy.

That means your LM Yelmalio can be a Buserian worshipper afaik.

[g33k]

41 minutes ago, Darius West said:

According to the new Cults of RQ: Lighbringers on page 75, the Cult of Buserian is the same as Lhankor Mhy.  Apparently they aren't separate deities anymore.  The only difference is that Buserian is associated with the Yelm Pantheon, not the Lightbringers. Go figure.  I had always personally imagined them as being really quite different, with Buserian worshippers being deeply interested in filing systems and astronomy.

Of course, the Lightbringer & Yelmic pantheons are deeply intertwined, to the point that IMG they're basically just divine cliques within a single pantheon!
The Lightbringers, after all, take their very name & identity from... Yelm's light.

But we'll have to see, when the Solar book comes out, if they have the same perspective on Buserian...  😉 
It wouldn't be the first time such mutually-contradictory "Truths" were BOTH true in Glorantha, after all!

I presume both LM & B have individual members who specialize in Astronomy, even if "Sky Stuff" is a more-common specialty in the more-Yelmic sect.

But LM priests are infamously obsessed with filing systems... to the point that some of the larger libraries have multiple, incompatible systems being simultaneously implemented, with adherents of one system conducting terrorist raids into the stacks of another, to rearrange the scrolls & tablets &c...

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

I had always personally imagined them as being really quite different, with Buserian worshippers being deeply interested in filing systems and astronomy.

Two views of the deity. With the Lightbringers, LM is a key advisor to Orlanth questing into the Underworld to restore the world. With the solar pantheon, Buserian is the one who watches the Sky, records their movements, etc. But in both cults there is a focus on recording and saving knowledge. One of LM/B's runes is Stasis (the Sky Dome) after all.

[metcalph]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

According to the new Cults of RQ: Lighbringers on page 75, the Cult of Buserian is the same as Lhankor Mhy.  Apparently they aren't separate deities anymore.  The only difference is that Buserian is associated with the Yelm Pantheon, not the Lightbringers. Go figure.  I had always personally imagined them as being really quite different, with Buserian worshippers being deeply interested in filing systems and astronomy.

That means your LM Yelmalio can be a Buserian worshipper afaik.

The Knowing God has a number of different names from the Western Lands to the Eastern Isles, just like other big gods.  The relationship between Lhankor Mhy and Buserian is like Dendara and Ernalda.  They should *be* the same god but they resist attempts to make them so.

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

The relationship between Lhankor Mhy and Buserian is like Dendara and Ernalda.  They should *be* the same god but they resist attempts to make them so.

I don't think Buserian and Lhankor Mhy have that sort of relationship at all; it's probably just languages making the name different, like Lightfore/Kargzant/Yelmalio/Elmal/Antirius/Metsyla. Dendara and Ernalda are unique in that they actively refused to admit sameness or even kinship with each other.

[Joerg]

4 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I don't think Buserian and Lhankor Mhy have that sort of relationship at all; it's probably just languages making the name different, like Lightfore/Kargzant/Yelmalio/Elmal/Antirius/Metsyla. Dendara and Ernalda are unique in that they actively refused to admit sameness or even kinship with each other.

While parentage of a deity may be mutable, there are a couple of different parentages for various expressions of Lhankor Mhy.

The Theyalan version has LM as the son of Acos and Orenoar (the Power Rune deities of Stasis and Truth) or of Mostal and Orenoar (Mostal as the "son of Acos").

The Dara Happans have Buserian as a son of Yelm, though not necessarily a Planetary Son of Yelm, and thus a brother of Reladivus Kargzant (as the Planetary Son of Yelm for the Southeast). He is the city overseer of Senthoros, the near (or lower) Eastern City of Murharzarm's Decapolis, and thus associated with the Arcos Valley.

There is a Malkioni version of Lhankor Mhy which is Tadenit, the Founder of the Tadeniti tribe of Danmalastan, the inventor(s) of writing. Tadenit is one of the six Founder sons of Malkion, by an unknown minor or local goddess of Danmalastan if his brother Waertag is a sensible template.

 

There is at least one Eastern Parloth god of writing (possibly duplicated in Kralorela and Vormain as one of the local entities, or as heroic mortal sages on their path to ascension) though not (yet) explicitely for Teshnos or some of the greater East Isles civilizations except possibly as mortal sages who out-saged mortality. The Doraddi don't seem to be literate (any more - their Golden/Storm Age Tishamto civilization is bound to have had some form of literacy), but the Fonritians certainly are a literate culture. No idea about the Thinobutans - they are a bunch of refugee cultures. The Kimotans construct ginormous earth glyphs changing their mutable landscape, so maybe they are the heirs of advanced Thinobutan literacy.

All of these are writers or Knowers, and as such aspects of Lhankor Mhy.

One writer in particular is as much a good fit as a bad fit for Lhankor Mhy: Zzabur, the Sorcerer Supreme, master of (applied) Knowledge (aka Sorcery). Discuss!

[Ali the Helering]

or they are individual deities who are far more interesting than being retconned into a creaking and redundant monomyth😁

[metcalph]

My impressions of the local Lhankor Mhy

• Buserian (Peloria)
• Chaquandarath (Eastern Isles) - Cults of Runequest Prosopedia p22
• Vashanti (Kralorela)
• Enroval (Malkioni)

The Safelstrans and Fonritans may have their own versions but no likely names have been listed so far.

I don't think Enroval is actively worshipped by the Malkioni.  Instead he is seen as the the founder of a Zzaburi specialization - theology or metaphysics.

I know Vashanti has different runes (Dragon and Truth) than the other forms of Lhankor Mhy but IMO the God Learners interpreted this as the Arachne Solara's Web which allowed them to place him within their monomyth.  The cult was split byby tensions between the Wise Ones and the Learners when Shang-Hsa ruled.  But as a result of the struggles at the end of the Age, the Vashanti (like other dragon cults) can only access Dragon magic through the rituals of Godunya.  Now they are a cult of administrators and bureaucrats.

 

[Ian_W]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

One writer in particular is as much a good fit as a bad fit for Lhankor Mhy: Zzabur, the Sorcerer Supreme, master of (applied) Knowledge (aka Sorcery). Discuss!

If I was a God Learner building a god to help steal mythic power off barbarians, I'd build something that looks a lot like the Third Age Llankor Mhy.

[metcalph]

"Lhankot Mhy" in Vormain:  I think because of its association with Vashanti and the Kralori Invasion, the cult is looked down upon as foreign.  Its worshippers are outcasts who collect lore about the world beyond Vormain.  They are consulted by pirates and despised by everybody else.

[Darius West]

While not official, the https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Buserian site lists Buserian having the following Rune magic:

Divine Magic: All Common, Starbeam, Transcribe, Find Hidden, Translate, Analyze Magic.

Associated Cults: Yelm (Cloud Clear), Polaris (Shield)

I personally gave Buserian a Stellar Oracle power that allowed followers in general terms what to prepare for in the coming year, and a True Scripture spell that removed falsehoods from anything they had recorded and replace it with the truth.

[Akhôrahil]

16 hours ago, metcalph said:

The Knowing God has a number of different names from the Western Lands to the Eastern Isles, just like other big gods.  The relationship between Lhankor Mhy and Buserian is like Dendara and Ernalda.  They should *be* the same god but they resist attempts to make them so.

The game will treat them differently in this regard, though? Busierian is just LM, while Dendara is her own goddess, as far as the Cults books are concerned?

[Jeff]

Buserian is Lhankor Mhy, and vice versa. At the Dawn, the Dara Happans and the Theyalans had different written scripts and assumed each script had a different god. By the Second Age, it was acknowledged that there is a single God of Literacy (or Knowledge) known to both cultures. He is better known as Lhankor Mhy, and so that is the name we use in the books.  

[soltakss]

On 12/16/2023 at 3:05 PM, Darius West said:

According to the new Cults of RQ: Lighbringers on page 75, the Cult of Buserian is the same as Lhankor Mhy.  Apparently they aren't separate deities anymore.  The only difference is that Buserian is associated with the Yelm Pantheon, not the Lightbringers. Go figure.  I had always personally imagined them as being really quite different, with Buserian worshippers being deeply interested in filing systems and astronomy.

My take was that Jeff thought that they are too similar to be interestingly different, so they are the same.

You can rationalise it as Buserian being Lhankor Mhy at the Court of Yelm and "normal" Lhankor Mhy being Lhankor Mhy at the Court of Orlanth. The two sets of myths are different as they deal with different deities. This is similar to how I see Elmal as Yelmalio at the Court of Orlanth. 

On 12/16/2023 at 3:05 PM, Darius West said:

That means your LM Yelmalio can be a Buserian worshipper afaik.

Yes, of course.

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

While not official, the https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Buserian site lists Buserian having the following Rune magic:

Divine Magic: All Common, Starbeam, Transcribe, Find Hidden, Translate, Analyze Magic.

Associated Cults: Yelm (Cloud Clear), Polaris (Shield)

There is nothing wrong with a Deity having different spells in different places. It can be explained by the myths being remembered differently, or by different myths having prominence.

 

[Godlearner]

9 hours ago, soltakss said:

There is nothing wrong with a Deity having different spells in different places. It can be explained by the myths being remembered differently, or by different myths having prominence.

Generally its not a problem, but what happens when a Buserian initiate walks into a Lhankor Mhy temple. Can he sacrifice for a spells which he normally not have access to? Would he use the same Worship. I am assuming yes to both.

[soltakss]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Generally its not a problem, but what happens when a Buserian initiate walks into a Lhankor Mhy temple. Can he sacrifice for a spells which he normally not have access to? Would he use the same Worship. I am assuming yes to both.

I would say Maybe and Yes.

A Lhankor Mhy cultist at a Buserian Temple could sacrifice for those spells that are common to the Cults as well as any spells available to Buserian but not to Lhankor Mhy. As for Associate Cult spells, they probably can get them.

A Buserian cultist at a Lhankor Mhy temple might not be able to sacrifice for Buserian-specific spells unless the temple had a Buserian shrine. 

It's like a Praxian follower of Little Brother through a Spirit Cult entering an Orlanth Temple for the first time. They might be overwhelmed by the magic available through the myths being recounted at the Temple.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

... what happens when a Buserian initiate walks into a Lhankor Mhy temple. Can he sacrifice for a spells which he normally not have access to? Would he use the same Worship. I am assuming yes to both.

I think I'd say that the Buserian has to do 3 things (before they can get a LM spell not listed for B):

1. They need to learn the story, the myth, of LM having the power that forms the basis of the spell.
2. They need to believe in the story, have faith that it's True.
3. They need to accept that LM and B are masks of one another, but their godhead is one and the same.

Then yes, they can sac for the spell and get it.

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Generally its not a problem, but what happens when a Buserian initiate walks into a Lhankor Mhy temple. Can he sacrifice for a spells which he normally not have access to? Would he use the same Worship. I am assuming yes to both.

Judging from the more common crossover examples of Lhankor Mhy -> Irrippi Ontor, Humakt -> Yanafal Tarnils and Issaries -> Etyries, the real problem isn't so much as the difficulty of doing so but the attitudes of your former colleagues after the event.

[Jens]

On 12/17/2023 at 11:06 PM, g33k said:

I think I'd say that the Buserian has to do 3 things (before they can get a LM spell not listed for B):

1. They need to learn the story, the myth, of LM having the power that forms the basis of the spell.
2. They need to believe in the story, have faith that it's True.
3. They need to accept that LM and B are masks of one another, but their godhead is one and the same.

IMHO when you learn a new rune spell, you are actually engaging in a minor heroquest, guided by the local priest, that shows your god performing or embodying that new spell. This should handily satisfy all 3 of your requirements. 
 

On 12/18/2023 at 12:22 AM, metcalph said:

common crossover examples of Lhankor Mhy -> Irrippi Ontor, Humakt -> Yanafal Tarnils and Issaries -> Etyries

Those are fundamentally different examples. Buserian and Lhankor Mhy are names/masks/manifestations of the same divine entity. The Seven Mothers may have worshipped those other gods initially, but they transcended (or transgressed) that origin and became new gods in their own right. 

[metcalph]

Just now, Jens said:

Those are fundamentally different examples. Buserian and Lhankor Mhy are names/masks/manifestations of the same divine entity. The Seven Mothers may have worshipped those other gods initially, but they transcended (or transgressed) that origin and became new gods in their own right. 

How do you know they aren't the same God within a different environment?  At times, Cults of Prax suggests they are.  

[Jens]

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

How do you know they aren't the same God within a different environment?

There are people still living that met the Seven Mothers when they were human; some even saw them ascend. YT fought Humakt to prove his godhood, and Humakt is uniquely Hostile to 7M and no other cult. While some of those shenanigans may have happened with the same being in God Time, the Great Compromise would have to be frayed indeed for them to happen as they did WITHIN time. 

[metcalph]

13 minutes ago, Jens said:

There are people still living that met the Seven Mothers when they were human; some even saw them ascend. YT fought Humakt to prove his godhood, and Humakt is uniquely Hostile to 7M and no other cult. While some of those shenanigans may have happened with the same being in God Time, the Great Compromise would have to be frayed indeed for them to happen as they did WITHIN time. 

That doesn't prove anything.  Lhankor Mhy, Buserian and Chaquandarath have separate histories despite being the same god at some level.  Yanafal Tarnils fought Humakt?  Kargan Tor fought himself!  And saying that the Great Compromise would have to be frayed is nothing compared to what has been written about the Compromise when the Red Goddess proved herself ("The processes of the Lunar Way seemed to contradict the Great Compromise [...] It was like an amendment to the Great Compromise" Cults of Runequest: Mythology p17)

 

[Oldskolgmr]

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

That doesn't prove anything.  Lhankor Mhy, Buserian and Chaquandarath have separate histories despite being the same god at some level.  Yanafal Tarnils fought Humakt?  Kargan Tor fought himself!  And saying that the Great Compromise would have to be frayed is nothing compared to what has been written about the Compromise when the Red Goddess proved herself ("The processes of the Lunar Way seemed to contradict the Great Compromise [...] It was like an amendment to the Great Compromise" Cults of Runequest: Mythology p17)

 

I love the idea of the Compromise of the Red Goddess as an amendment to "the Great Compromise"! It sounds like MGF, and another way AllGMV!

[Richard S.]

The Seven Mothers were fully mortal before their ascension. It's been noted that Irrippi Ontor and Yanafal Tarnils have similar cult structures to Lhankor Mhy and Humakt, but it's never been suggested that they're the same beings.

Dendara and Ernalda, similarly, have similar ranks and requirements but are still separate beings. Though their separateness is a little more complicated.

Buserian and Lhankor Mhy are fully identical save for associated cults, as Buserian is only associated with Yelm and probably Mostal. They're the same entity though, the Dara Happens presumably just prefer the part of the godtime where the Knowing God is a part of Yelm's court.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/lhankor-mhy-in-central-genertela/

[Godlearner]

5 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Buserian and Lhankor Mhy are fully identical save for associated cults

If you have differnt Myths, how can you be the same God?