How does a Fetch get destroyed?

[That_Old-Hammer]

If the fetch is ever destroyed,
the shaman dies.

Pg 356 on my copy of Runequest

I've been thinking about this quote a lot recently, and have come to realise I have very little idea what it really entails.

"Destroyed" wouldn't be something as simple as losing all it's magic points right? If that were the case then any instance of Spirit Combat would constitute an enormous risk to the Shaman, because losing, which could already result in them being bound or otherwise contained would instead result in their immediate death.

Is there some known instance of Fetch death? What would constitute the proper qualifications for "destruction"?

I could see losing all of it's POW as resulting in destruction but as far as I know there's no way to steal someone's POW outside of maybe some Chaos features, or a thusfar unknown Vivamort Rune Spell.

As an aside, would it be possible to a revive a shaman who died from having their Fetch destroyed? Either from the Resurrect Rune Spell or maybe even the Self-Resurrection Shamanic Ability? Though that one might be tied to the destroyed Fetch.

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, That_Old-Hammer said:

I could see losing all of it's POW as resulting in destruction but as far as I know there's no way to steal someone's POW outside of maybe some Chaos features, or a thusfar unknown Vivamort Rune Spell.

One simple one would be a Tap spell. It was in RQ3, and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be feasible in RQG.

Also, we could also add the possibility of some spirits having it as an ability.

And, of course, the shaman could DI and lose all their POW.

 

I could see some DMs allowing a resurrection without the Fetch - ie, their access to the spirit world cut off. (probably a great reason to set them off on a quest to get it working again - not a simple shamanic initiation).

[Scotty]

7 hours ago, That_Old-Hammer said:

If the fetch is ever destroyed, the shaman dies.

Pg 356 on my copy of Runequest

I've been thinking about this quote a lot recently, and have come to realise I have very little idea what it really entails.

"Destroyed" wouldn't be something as simple as losing all it's magic points right? If that were the case then any instance of Spirit Combat would constitute an enormous risk to the Shaman, because losing, which could already result in them being bound or otherwise contained would instead result in their immediate death.

Simply put, it means being reduced to zero POW.

7 hours ago, That_Old-Hammer said:

Is there some known instance of Fetch death? What would constitute the proper qualifications for "destruction"?

I could see losing all of it's POW as resulting in destruction but as far as I know there's no way to steal someone's POW outside of maybe some Chaos features, or a thusfar unknown Vivamort Rune Spell.

There's also Soul Waste, but other than what you've said, that's basically it. 

7 hours ago, That_Old-Hammer said:

As an aside, would it be possible to a revive a shaman who died from having their Fetch destroyed? Either from the Resurrect Rune Spell or maybe even the Self-Resurrection Shamanic Ability? Though that one might be tied to the destroyed Fetch.

No. Remember that the fetch is part of the shaman. Although I'd certainly allow it as a story hook.

[PhilHibbs]

12 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

One simple one would be a Tap spell. It was in RQ3, and I don't see any reason why it wouldn't be feasible in RQG.

Tap can't take it below 1.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Tap can't take it below 1.

Add in a Krarshtide with POW drain at the end. 🙂

[Shiningbrow]

9 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Tap can't take it below 1.

Oh??? And what makes you say that? (other than, perhaps, Tap Body - but I don't read that as an absolute for all Tap spells - but only as a specific for that one. After all, Steal Breath doesn't have any such similar limitations)

[Kloster]

20 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Tap can't take it below 1.

 

11 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Oh??? And what makes you say that? (other than, perhaps, Tap Body - but I don't read that as an absolute for all Tap spells - but only as a specific for that one. After all, Steal Breath doesn't have any such similar limitations)

I read it that TAP BODY can't tap size below 1 because you need a SIZ above 0 to have a physical existence. Other stats don't have this problem. I have not checked with RQG but in RQ3, you simply died (most often of old age) when 1 stat reached 0.

[PhilHibbs]

16 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Oh??? And what makes you say that? (other than, perhaps, Tap Body - but I don't read that as an absolute for all Tap spells - but only as a specific for that one. After all, Steal Breath doesn't have any such similar limitations)

None of the Tap (Characteristic) spells have ever been able to reduce a stat to zero. Sure, I might be wrong in RQG.

Edited February 6 by PhilHibbs

[Kloster]

11 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

None of the Tap (Characteristic) spells have ever been able to reduce a stat to zero. Sure, I might be wrong in RQG.

RQ3 Tap spells could go to 0. At least, it is not written they are limited to 1.

[Shiningbrow]

48 minutes ago, Kloster said:

RQ3 Tap spells could go to 0. At least, it is not written they are limited to 1.

Actually...

 p51 of the Magic book does have in the middle of the second paragraph of the Tap (Characteristic) spells, "..., and no characteristic can be Tapped below one point." - as @PhilHibbs has said.

But, personally, I can't see why not - especially for POW. But I can understand some of idea of not being able to completely tap out of existence...

[Kloster]

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Actually...

 p51 of the Magic book does have in the middle of the second paragraph of the Tap (Characteristic) spells, "..., and no characteristic can be Tapped below one point." - as @PhilHibbs has said.

But, personally, I can't see why not - especially for POW. But I can understand some of idea of not being able to completely tap out of existence...

I missed this paragraph.

[jajagappa]

14 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

p51 of the Magic book does have in the middle of the second paragraph of the Tap (Characteristic) spells, "..., and no characteristic can be Tapped below one point." - as @PhilHibbs has said.

But, personally, I can't see why not

They were probably trying to avoid sadistic GM's having NPC sorcerers tap PC's to 0 and killing them outright.

[soltakss]

On 2/5/2024 at 2:55 AM, That_Old-Hammer said:

"Destroyed" wouldn't be something as simple as losing all it's magic points right? If that were the case then any instance of Spirit Combat would constitute an enormous risk to the Shaman, because losing, which could already result in them being bound or otherwise contained would instead result in their immediate death.

Reaching 0 POW is one way to kill a Fetch. Soul Waste is a good way to achieve this.

Divine Intervention might also be possible. If you have 10 POW and 8 Rune Points, and your Fetch has 15 POW, and you roll 32 on a Diving Intervention you lose all your Rune Points, all your POW except 1, all your Fetch's POW except 1 and then have to decide whether to lose your final point of POW or your Fetch loses its final point of POW.

 

On 2/5/2024 at 2:55 AM, That_Old-Hammer said:

Is there some known instance of Fetch death? What would constitute the proper qualifications for "destruction"?

In our campaign, an Adventurer lost their Fetch as it was eaten on a HeroQuest. They were not happy about it and had to HeroQuest to get it back again. Obviously, that isn't canonical though.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

In our campaign, an Adventurer lost their Fetch as it was eaten on a HeroQuest. They were not happy about it and had to HeroQuest to get it back again. Obviously, that isn't canonical though.

Getting eaten is not necessarily the same as being destroyed, which makes a Red Riding Hood heroquest to retrieve it sort of feasible.

[Shiningbrow]

16 hours ago, soltakss said:

Divine Intervention might also be possible. If you have 10 POW and 8 Rune Points, and your Fetch has 15 POW, and you roll 32 on a Diving Intervention you lose all your Rune Points, all your POW except 1, all your Fetch's POW except 1 and then have to decide whether to lose your final point of POW or your Fetch loses its final point of POW.

Interesting Point! (I'm taking the pun)

So, would you rule that as a death, since the Fetch shouldn't be able to get to 0 without killing the other half? Or...????

[soltakss]

On 2/10/2024 at 6:51 AM, Shiningbrow said:

So, would you rule that as a death, since the Fetch shouldn't be able to get to 0 without killing the other half? Or...????

I play that a Shaman without a fetch is broken. In our RQ Campaign the Shaman who lost her fetch found the House of Broken Spirits nearby, consisting of Shamans who had also lost their fetches. It was a truly wretched place of broken aimless shamans. She managed to break into the place that held her fetch and retrieved it, also freeing the other fetches and gaining a host of loyal shamans as a result.

In the example, the Shaman could lose the remaining point of POW and end up as solely a Fetch, so would be a spirit, or could lose the fetch and no longer be a Shaman. The Shaman could probably never reawaken a fetch, as the fetch has gone. The rules say that losing a fetch kills the Shaman, but where's the fun in that?

[shoggoth]

On 2/5/2024 at 11:18 AM, Scotty said:

Simply put, it means being reduced to zero POW.

...

There's also Soul Waste, but other than what you've said, that's basically it. 

I don't understand that rule. As there are almost no way to reduce POW to zero, killing a fetch would never happen in practice.

Besides, this is a rule from RQ2, but in RQ2 POW was a ressource being depleted by casting spells & spirit damage, hence the rule makes sense. But in RQG magic points play the role of a ressource, not POW. 

So either this is a mistake in the RQ2 adaptation to RQG, and the correct rule would be to die at zero magic point not POW, or this is a correct rule that is intended to never apply. Don't know what to think.

 

Edited March 10 by shoggoth

[Nevun]

While it's not implicitly mentioned on the spell description, I'd probably allow the Humakti spell of Sever Spirit to sever the link between the shaman and their fetch. It's in line with the meaning behind the spell.

That said - I'd probably rule that the spirit was 'lost' - not destroyed. And should lead on to a suitably memorable quest to find the lost fetch and bring it home again.

[Scotty]

12 hours ago, shoggoth said:

I don't understand that rule. As there are almost no way to reduce POW to zero, killing a fetch would never happen in practice.

In a roleplaying game, never is usually more often than not. 

12 hours ago, shoggoth said:

So either this is a mistake in the RQ2 adaptation to RQG, and the correct rule would be to die at zero magic point not POW, or this is a correct rule that is intended to never apply. Don't know what to think.

Zero magic points is unconsciousness. Note that a fetch reaching zero POW is very serious as it will kill the shaman too (A fetch is the awakened portion of the shaman’s soul).

[SDLeary]

2 hours ago, Scotty said:

Zero magic points is unconsciousness. Note that a fetch reaching zero POW is very serious as it will kill the shaman too (A fetch is the awakened portion of the shaman’s soul).

That’s a bit extreme. Especially if the reverse is true as well (at work, so no books handy), and the Shaman is truly dead at 0 physical body POW. 
It precludes the ability of the Shaman to wander the spirit world to find a new body. 
 

SDLeary
 

 

[jajagappa]

23 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

That’s a bit extreme.

Not really - no different than anyone else dying.

One problem I often see if considering the fetch as a distinct and separate spirit. It isn't - it is part of the shaman. It may be easier to think of the fetch as a distinct hit location - just one that can mostly be targeted on the Spirit Plane.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, SDLeary said:

That’s a bit extreme. Especially if the reverse is true as well (at work, so no books handy), and the Shaman is truly dead at 0 physical body POW. 
It precludes the ability of the Shaman to wander the spirit world to find a new body. 

What is it that would be wandering the spirit world to find a new body? Zero POW means zero soul/spirit. Annihilation of the soul, very serious, and yes, very extreme.

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, SDLeary said:

That’s a bit extreme.

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Not really - no different than anyone else dying.

If the fetch is only a portion of the shaman’s soul — i.e. the fetch–shaman combo is really just one person (one soul, segmented) — then the fetch segment’s hitting zero POW killing the fetch–shaman does seem a bit extreme, as no one has actually been reduced to zero POW. Isn’t it a bit like saying you must die if a limb has been cut off or one hemisphere of your brain has been mashed? You might die, but …

However, mine is not to reason why.

[SDLeary]

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Not really - no different than anyone else dying.

One problem I often see if considering the fetch as a distinct and separate spirit. It isn't - it is part of the shaman. It may be easier to think of the fetch as a distinct hit location - just one that can mostly be targeted on the Spirit Plane.

Correct, it is a SINGLE spirit. So if the body dies (from reduction to 0 POW or otherwise), the Shaman should still exist in the spirit world, and if they are the crafty sort should be able to find themselves a new... host(?), or if killed by someone, exact revenge, and then perhaps use their body as host.

If the Fetch dies (reduces to 0 POW), then the Shamans ability to travel the spirit world should be stopped, but their mortal self should be fine. Perhaps they live in a reduced state, perhaps they can find a way to awaken another fetch.

SDLeary

 

Edited March 12 by SDLeary

[PhilHibbs]

12 hours ago, SDLeary said:

Correct, it is a SINGLE spirit. So if the body dies (from reduction to 0 POW or otherwise), the Shaman should still exist in the spirit world, and if they are the crafty sort should be able to find themselves a new... host(?), or if killed by someone, exact revenge, and then perhaps use their body as host.

If the Fetch dies (reduces to 0 POW), then the Shamans ability to travel the spirit world should be stopped, but their mortal self should be fine. Perhaps they live in a reduced state, perhaps they can find a way to awaken another fetch.

SDLeary

I was going to say "if your arm is cut of, you can't just..." oh wait yeah you can. Regrow Limb.

What we do know is, there's no easy well-trodden path that has been formalised into a rune spell. You need to find some new (or old, lost) way to do it.