Shaman, why not give the fetch all pow?

[Kvott]

There is no stopping and no downside for a shaman to give the fetch a big lump of power. When the shaman has 5 pow and the fetch 20 the shaman will increase pow 80% of the time. Soon they will together have 31 pow and not even a runelord with 21 pow can resist their attacks. The only weakness is in the spirit world, but why go there? The shaman can rule the mundane world. 

Fix? No adding of fetch pow in the Mortal realm?

Edited May 7 by Kvott

[metcalph]

Casting spirit magic is based on the Shaman's POW.  So a low score in that means the Shaman is hopeless. 

[Kvott]

True, so the shaman should stay at 10 pow. Will succed at spiritmagic 50% of the time. Good enough. But will gain power with 55% chance. With no upper limit to total pow.

Edited May 7 by Kvott
Expanded arg.

[Darius West]

Shamanism is always a balancing act.  You want high POW but the higher it is, the more it cuts down on your power ups, so you compromise.  I think 15 is a good number.

[svensson]

Two reasons:

1. If you go to 0 [zero] POW, you die. If you're a shaman with 1 POW, you're pathetic.

2. The fetch cannot do all your magical work for you. Just as the fetch is your presence in the Spirit Plane, you are the fetch's presence in the Mundane Plane. You must reserve enough spiritual strength [that is, POW] so that you can make POW gain rolls both for yourself and to donate to your fetch.

As @Darius West puts it, it's a balancing act.

[PhilHibbs]

9 hours ago, metcalph said:

Casting spirit magic is based on the Shaman's POW.  So a low score in that means the Shaman is hopeless. 

The shaman adds his fetch's POW to his own for nearly everything. I'd need to check the wording and the Well...

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-15-shamans/#ib-toc-anchor-22

The Fetch (pages 355-357)

What the Fetch Provides the Shaman (page 356)

Change

Correction

The fetch provides POW and magic points to the shaman. Its magic points are always accessible to the shaman, and its POW is nearly always added to that of the shaman’s (except for POW gain rolls).

This is quite a big and wide-reaching change to the rules, and I'm not sure why it came about after publication, but there it is. I'm not sure whether it is a good idea myself, and Jeff didn't rule it this way in his White Bull game on YouTube.

Edited May 8 by PhilHibbs

[Starcatcher]

I might be wrong on this, but I think when the Shaman is discorporated and travels the spirit world, he only has access to his own POW. Low "natural" POW would also negativly affect the magic abilities (like Spirit Dance etc.).
One thing is also the loss of Magic points. I know a shaman has access to a lot of different Magic Point Pools like Cristals, fetch and spirits, but there might be effects that spicifically make the shaman lose MP instead of one of the pools - very low POW would be quite dangerous then.
(Again, very new GM in RQ - sorry if I am totally off the mark here)

[Squaredeal Sten]

5 minutes ago, Starcatcher said:

I might be wrong on this, but I think when the Shaman is discorporated and travels the spirit world, he only has access to his own POW. Low "natural" POW would also negativly affect the magic abilities (like Spirit Dance etc.).
One thing is also the loss of Magic points. I know a shaman has access to a lot of different Magic Point Pools like Cristals, fetch and spirits, but there might be effects that spicifically make the shaman lose MP instead of one of the pools - very low POW would be quite dangerous then.
(Again, very new GM in RQ - sorry if I am totally off the mark here)

Easy example: Spirit Combat.  

What happens when your 1 MP shaman loses MPs?  As I understand it he adds the fetch's POW for rolls, but when he takes hits he cannot pay the loss with MPs stored in crystals, bound spirits' MPs, or his fetches.  

Also of course when your shaman needs a new spell it's off to the spirit world and the fetch is left behind to watch his body.  A 1MP in the spirit world is going to be killed.

[French Desperate WindChild]

14 hours ago, Kvott said:

The only weakness is in the spirit world, but why go there?

because that's shaman main activity, isn't it ?

[Kvott]

1 minute ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

because that's shaman main activity, isn't it ?

Well, there is no real need to go there, until you have built yourself up. Is there? With 50% powgain roll after 3 years with 6 seasons you have 9 more pow in your fetch. Now the demoralise will really bite. 

[Gamesmeister]

5 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

The shaman adds his fetch's POW to his own for nearly everything. I'd need to check the wording and the Well...

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-15-shamans/#ib-toc-anchor-22

The Fetch (pages 355-357)

What the Fetch Provides the Shaman (page 356)

Change

Correction

The fetch provides POW and magic points to the shaman. Its magic points are always accessible to the shaman, and its POW is nearly always added to that of the shaman’s (except for POW gain rolls).

This is quite a big and wide-reaching change to the rules, and I'm not sure why it came about after publication, but there it is. I'm not sure whether it is a good idea myself, and Jeff didn't rule it this way in his White Bull game on YouTube.

Pg 355 states that the fetch adds its POW to the shaman's POW against any contests involving POW vs POW struggles. I assume this resulted in the above correction, but it could be argued that only applies during stage three of awakening the fetch, as that's the only place in the rulebook that it appears.

Edited May 8 by Gamesmeister

[Squaredeal Sten]

38 minutes ago, Kvott said:

Well, there is no real need to go there, until you have built yourself up. Is there? With 50% powgain roll after 3 years with 6 seasons you have 9 more pow in your fetch. Now the demoralise will really bite. 

If the shaman is not going to the spirit world, he or she is not working as a shaman.  As a GM, I would recognize the munchkinry and say:  "Since your adventurer is not working as a shaman, he neither gets income nor the more favorable POW checks nor occupational  learning from that employment this season.  Whst IS his occupation. if any?"

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

If the shaman is not going to the spirit world, he or she is not working as a shaman.  As a GM, I would recognize the munchkinry and say:  "Since your adventurer is not working as a shaman, he neither gets income nor the more favorable POW checks nor occupational  learning from that employment this season.

Also no +3 spirit combat damage?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

As a GM, I would recognize the munchkinry and say:  "Since your adventurer is not working as a shaman, he neither gets income nor the more favorable POW checks nor occupational  learning from that employment this season.  Whst IS his occupation. if any?"

There certainly wouldn't be any apprentices because they need a shaman to guide them through Discorporation and teach them Spirit Travel and Spirit Dance. 

And communities wouldn't hire them because they aren't willing to go into the Otherworld to drive off the spirits that are cursing the village.

[Squaredeal Sten]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Also no +3 spirit combat damage?

I'd probably let him keep that since it is essentially a skill.  Of course over time the skill would degrade if unused.  I'd have to house rule it after thought.

Edited May 8 by Squaredeal Sten
spelling / typing

[PhilHibbs]

Another thing to consider is that if the shaman is a Waha priest, or of another shaman/priest cult, they need to keep their POW at 18 or they lapse. Vishi falls into this trap in the core rules narrative, but it isn’t mentioned.

Unless, of course, the rule change in The Well that I quoted earlier applies and you can add Fetch POW for this purpose as well…

Edited May 8 by PhilHibbs

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I'd probably let him kero that since it is essentially a skill.  Of coutlrse over time the skill would degrade if unused.  I'd have to house rule it after thought.

The Well clarifies that an Assistant Shaman loses the +1 if they are not actively working in that occupation, so Vishi in exile in Sartar doesn’t get it.

[hasevir]

then one of those moments: ey dm.. ya know.. ill spend a season zapping rats with disrupt ok? Fetch gets pow from 10 to 30 and ill go from 2 to 14.

[PhilHibbs]

37 minutes ago, hasevir said:

then one of those moments: ey dm.. ya know.. ill spend a season zapping rats with disrupt ok? Fetch gets pow from 10 to 30 and ill go from 2 to 14.

That’s quite impressive for a single season’s POW gain roll, that you’d have got just for attending a worship anyway.

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, Kvott said:

Well, there is no real need to go there, until you have built yourself up. Is there? With 50% powgain roll after 3 years with 6 seasons you have 9 more pow in your fetch. Now the demoralise will really bite. 

I follow @Squaredeal Sten's point of view

the bonus you can get as priest, shaman or any other occupation, exists because you do the "job"

I mean, if you have a bonus of POW it is because, daily, weekly, you lead ceremonies, rituals, challenges with spiritual opponents , for your cult if you are priest, with spirits if you are shaman. If you have a spirit combat damage, that's not "innate", that's because daily , weekly, you are disturbed, and sometimes you disturb spirits in the spirit plan. So you are trained,because you are always on the edge.

 

So I m harder than Squardeal, if I note that a shaman is losing her contact with the spirit plan, denying what she is, what the entity (horned man, waha, anyone) offered to her  during her first travel, then the link with the spirit world will gradually fade, followed by the powers, even the contact with her part of soul in the spirit plan (aka her fetch).

Fetch is not an allied spirit *, it is your part in the spirit plan. if you don't visit the spirit plan, you don't maintain your fetch energy

 

(note that I would react in the same wai) if your god gave you an allied spirit (who is devoted to the god), and you don't care what the god wants, a day or another, your allied spirit will just spit on you and leave, before or during the retribution spirits "discussion")

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

My advice is don't use these wellofdaliath "errata", which are major changes.  IMO, many of these are poorly conceived.

If you simply don't use them, the problem is not a problem - the Shaman needs reasonable POW, roughly 10, to cast spirit magic.  As noted in the early answers on this thread.  Also, a GM might start throwing lots of Luck Rolls at a shaman who drops his POW to low single digits.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Akhôrahil]

20 hours ago, Starcatcher said:

I might be wrong on this, but I think when the Shaman is discorporated and travels the spirit world, he only has access to his own POW. Low "natural" POW would also negativly affect the magic abilities (like Spirit Dance etc.).

This is correct, and your main rules-bases reason for having a functional amount of POW yourself.

[Kvott]

I read the Johnstown adventure with an npc Shaman with Pow 19 and fetch 16. A combined power of 35. (Stone and bone 2 Praxian adventure). That shaman can overcome all Runelords resisting his spells easily. Befuddled and Demoralised any runelord should run away. If they know the way. 🙂

 

[g33k]

On 5/8/2024 at 7:08 AM, Kvott said:

Well, there is no real need to go there, until you have built yourself up. Is there? With 50% powgain roll after 3 years with 6 seasons you have 9 more pow in your fetch. Now the demoralise will really bite. 

Your premise seems to be that the shaman is an utterly-independent free agent, without obligations or oaths.

I would presume, instead, that they were trained by a shaman who was serving a particular tribe or community, and only trained apprentices with a similar outlook; and if they were in any doubt, I expect there'd be some Geasa / Taboo's to enforce a minimum degree of such service.

[PhilHibbs]

8 hours ago, g33k said:

Your premise seems to be that the shaman is an utterly-independent free agent, without obligations or oaths.

Under most circumstances, this would be the case. But if the adventurer is, for example, a White Bull loyalist working for Argrath, is he going to stop you from powergaming and abusing the system? That's what he does.