A New Direction for Classic Fantasy?

[Atgxtg]

(*Sigh* I know I'm going to regret this and Triff will rub my nose in it but...)

Folks, specifically those of who who are unhappy with the support that CF has gotten. Can you explain why you are upset with Rod, and why you claim he gave you poor support? Specifically, can you show how the lack up support products is HIS fault and not Chaosium's?

I'm not a CF fan (no offense, not my style of play), but from what I can tell from pending (too much) time on the forums, Rod is here often, and is always willing to give feedback and provides a level of direct support that few other authors provide. Okay, we're spoiled around here, we got guys like Rosen, soltakss, Jason, Loz, and Pete posting here so we get a much better relationship to the authors than on practically any other RPG forum-especially a independent third party forum. So I suppose it is remotely possible that Rod isn't providing as much support as some of the other guys here, but, frankly, I doubt it. There are a lot of CF threads here, and I doubt anybody could post anything about CF without Rod reading it and responding. Just sitting from the sidelines I see CF getting better support from the author than most the stuff Chaosium has put out over the years.

So, at the risk of derailing this threat a little, what exactly did the guy do, or fail to do that brought on this hostility?

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Just sitting from the sidelines I see CF getting better support from the author than most the stuff Chaosium has put out over the years.

And that's not even counting the Yahoo! group where he spends most of his feedback time. But really, Atgxtg my good man, let's lay sleeping trolls lie ...

[RosenMcStern]

That would be me, posting a rather grumpy post at 2 am in the morning, thought no one would notice if I quietly deleted it. Foiled again!

But we all love you, Newt. Even when you are grumpy in the morning

Angus Abranson from Chronicle City (Chronicle City Webstore - The New Capital of Gaming and check out the contact page ) might be interested, he was part of C7 when they released various licensed books, but I don't know 100% whether his current plans include releasing any BRP books.

They do. Chronicle City will co-publish BRP Mecha with Alephtar Games, so you will see some BRP there, too.

By the way, let me just clear up that little bit of a misapprehension there - the D100II System Reference Document is a retro-clone of the second edition of our ancestral game, AEONS is a brand-new system.

Aaah, so it MIGHT be suitable, after all. But we cannot know for sure until AEONS is finally out.

[kaddawang]

I just want to throw my support in for Rod and Classic Fantasy.

Personally I'd love seeing this supported by the core BRP - either from Chaosium or C7. If that is not an option, OQ is a solid alternative(just make sure Newt gets his coffee first;))

Either way, I hope you'll continue working on it and that we'll see a full product.

[USAFguy]

Gosh Rod,

Clearly I hit a nerve, don't take it personally. The simple fact is that three years is a long time for a follow-up product. I think you need to take on a team or get some kind of support infrastructure, maybe another publisher gives you that...maybe not. Your product is inspired and my personal favorite but clearly you need help to move product (1). I did get one of your very well formatted updates but was left with the impression over the past 3 years that there were more(2). Email inquiries to yahoo group and your personal email went unanswered(3). Facts are facts, perception is perception. There could be reasons why this happened, but they happened and its not good customer support.

As a smart, talented guy you took my criticism personally rather than acknowledge there may be issues w/ customer support, or at least a difference between what the customers want vs what you've been able to do. Will going your own way actually improve responsiveness? Not sure going your own way will be better unless you get support to build/move product and respond to customers and fans (possibly by teaming w/ someone in your area...not me certainly, I'm even busier than you). CF is a big, grand product...the yahoo group is ok but more could be done.

I like that you're clearly thinking about CF b/c you're bringing your ideas to this forum...its a good step.

Mark

[Chaot]

Hi Mark, Shea here. Forgive typos and brevity, but I'm posting from a phone.

I think your expectations for what is making a game for the love of it in a niche of a niche of a niche hobby and market is a bit unreasonable. If Rod were doing this for money he'd probably decide to mow lawns instead.

I'm sorry some of your emails went astray, but when I've found Rod reachable he is always generous with his time and ideas. If I hadn't found him reachable in a given instance (which I don't think has actually happened to me, just saying for argument) I'd respect his space. He's not a company. He's a single author (who wrote something pretty brilliant).

I'm not sure taking Rod to task in this thread is productive or appropriate.

[USAFguy]

One, I agree the product is brilliant.

Two, there's no intent to 'take him to task'.

Three, will changing companies 1)move more product and 2)support the customers?

He's a talented and busy guy, great point. I forget that this is more of a hobby than business, so maybe my expectations are a bit higher than reasonable...valid point. (typed as I wrestle with my 5 year old son.... I understand limited time)

[Atgxtg]

Gosh Rod,

Clearly I hit a nerve, don't take it personally. The simple fact is that three years is a long time for a follow-up product.

In this hobby? Unless you are dealing with WotC or Mongoose or another of the big companies, product support and output is spotty. If there are other updates and they didn't get out smacks more like the publisher's fault than the author. Its the publisher who gets to decide what,if anything gets printed. THat Rod is disatisfied with Chaosium over this is what is prompting him to look elsewhere.

That your email went enusanswered is also no big thiing. Nobody in the RPG business answers every email or message post. I've personally been "snubbed" in that fashion by virtually every RPG author I've every exchanged messages with at one time or another including Greg Stafford, Jason Durall, Greg Porter, and Ross Issacs, I'm not griping. I consider myself lucky for the responses I have gotten. I can be a pest about minutiae and technical details at times. It's not like these guys sit around all day answering emails.

Nor can they afford to put together some sort of support team. Generally authors of RPG books make a few pennies per word, or a small amount per copy sold. I doubt if all the money ROd's made from CF would be enough to pay for a single full time staff member for a week.

[USAFguy]

Shea/Atgxtg,

Great points all. Please keep shooting the messager. I bought the orginal Magic World and loved it....and waited. BRP came out, the magic system was similar but not improved. Rod's system was terrific. It fits very well w/BRP and actually improves it.

Never a big fan of Elric! and not excited about the next Magic World...but clearly there's more product ready to move quickly...and the author is active on this forum.

I'm an 'older', busy guy and not getting email responses isn't a big deal, it happens.

But the little things add up. Frankly, I'd buy Rod's product if he sold it on ebay or went on his own. But does publisher or system really matter if the product simply doesn't come?

But hey, keep shooting! LOL.

Maybe I should have just said....produce the product and buyers will buy it. Heck, I'd send him a check and be willing to wait for it to clear and get the product as a PDF after the check clears...

Isn't self-publishing an option? Why does Chaosium have to be involved?

Edited August 25, 2012 by USAFguy

[NickMiddleton]

Rod,

I'm, biased, and I know I said this already - but please, please, please talk to Newt! I think OQ (especially OQ2) is a VERY good fit for CF and there's a natural synergy between what D101 have been doing more generally and what you've done so far and were planning for CF. If Chaosium really are so foolish as to let this opportunity pass I really think D101 and OpenQuest are the way to go.

And I'm sure I'm not the only one who would happily contribute to a Kickstarter to bootstrap CF in to a full distribution product, via Chaosium, D101 or your partner of choice, based on the excellent work and fantastic customer support you have offered on your own initiative / effort with the original monograph and subsequently.

Cheers,

Nick

Edited August 26, 2012 by NickMiddleton

[Atgxtg]

Shea/Atgxtg,

Great points all. Please keep shooting the messager.

Haven't even started shooting the messenger. I'm just shooting at your complaint. I haven't attacked you personally.

I bought the orginal Magic World and loved it

What's that? To the best of my knowledge, Magic World was a booklet included in the Worlds of Wonder boxset. A Chaosium product that was released 30 years ago. Rod had nothing to do with it.

....and waited. [.quote]

For what? MW was a one off product. It wasn't supposed to be supported in any way. Chaosium was busy with three other lines (RQ, Strombringer and CoC) at the time.

Not surprising. BRP cobbled together various bits of the multiple RPGs that Chasoium has put out over the years.

Score 1 for Rod

Score 2 and 3 for Rod. But that he has product and that it isn't getting out should tip you off that the problem probably lies elsewhere.

Yes, if the publisher is the reason why the product doesn't come. For example, when Pendragon 6 came out, we knew that there was supposed to be more stuff coming out for it. But White Wolf (the publisher) didn;t want to support the system. So most of Greg Stafford stuff was stuck in limbo. Greg was able to get permission to self publish some stuff (at his own expense, and those while books were not pretty and cost twice as much as a professionally printed stuff). Eventually some people from White Wolf split off and formed thier own company and they now publish Pendragon.

Most of the time, the author has very little control over if or when a game will be supported and how much. It's not like you can just send off a book to a publisher and they just print it on the spot.

Look at Chaosium's history. BRP was in limbo for over a decade, and many people bought BRP Zero for fear than the BRP line would disappear before it got into print. HeroQuest was promised in 1978, and didn't make it out until the 1990s, and then by a different company!

I think you are blaming the wrong guy here. Rod wants to get the stuff out as much as you want to buy it. THat's why he is splitting away from Chasoium. They don't want to support it up to the level he (and you) want.

You can say it, but can you do it? And in enough quantity to make it worthwhile? Companies release products based upon things like thier cash flow, the cost to get it published and the quantity of sales. That Chaosium isn't pushing CF, probably means that they aren't getting enough sales to make it worth supporting. At least not compared to some other house product (probably CoC). Probably somebody at Chaosium had to choose between publishing another CoC supplement or a CF one, and CoC is paying their bills.

[USAFguy]

Atgxtg,

Is the publisher the issue? Let's cut to the chase. If so, the rest of this response should be ignored.

Talk about circular arguments. En toto, if the product doesn't get published, there won't be any support (ex: Magic World and unfortunately CF). If the product isn't published, there can NOT be sales. No new CF, demand can only drop over time. Its been '80%' for ages. Without new product, most publishers will not support it...a new one won't be substantially different.

Is CF legally tied to Chaosium? Does CF's engine rely upon some copyright ties w/BRP? Has Chaosium said, 'get lost' or simply supporting what they can and would also support CF if anything was ready to publish? It doesn't seem that the publisher is really the issue...if CF is a proven performer in monograph (and I believe it is), publishing expansions should be a no-brainer even if the new Magic World comes out.

[BMonroe]

Really sad that CF isn't likely to remain part of the immediate BRP family, but there are several options for you to look at. Personally, I cannot recommend OpenQuest highly enough - it's a flexible, stripped back core that emulates the feel of Chaosium's RQII really well and would make a fabulous basis to build your own stand alone version of "Classic Fantasy" that would remain fundamentally numbers compatible with most BRP / D100 family games.

Cheers,

Nick

What Nick said. I absolutely adore OpenQuest, and indeed I'm using it right now to run my pals through a bunch of classic RQ stuff (tonight, the PCs are leaving Pavis to take employment with Duke Raus!).

I think you could do an absolutely marvellous game by taking the OpenQuest core, and rebuilding Classic Fantasy with it. Indeed, I think it'd get to closer to the 'original' feel of the game, as OQ is a very streamlined system at it's core.

Plus, it's OGL, and there's a 'developer's kit' which contains all the open content in an editable MS Word doc.

Rodney -- I'd be happy to discuss this more offline if you'd like. Drop me a line if you want. I'd also be more than happy to put you in touch with Newt Newport, the guy behind OQ. He's a great guy, and an OQ-CF mashup would be right up his alley.

[Atgxtg]

Atgxtg,

Is the publisher the issue? Let's cut to the chase. If so, the rest of this response should be ignored.

Yes.

Here is a quote from Rod's first message that started this thread: THe bold stuff is my doing. TO me it seems that he is upset about the same things you are.

Classic Fantasy was released almost three years ago through Chaosium, and in that time has continued to be one of their best-selling monographs. At one point this even had them considering publishing it as an actual distribution product, but this seems to have fallen to the weigh side. With no real communication from the powers that be on this possibility any more, and with the up-coming publication of Magic World, I tend to think this will more than likely never happen. Obviously Chaosium really doesn't need two competing game lines.

I think you got a reason to be upset, but you are blaming the wrong guy. From Rod's posts he wants to get the stuff out as much as you want to get it. And he is breaking away from Chaosium in order to do just that. Why else would he bother to change publishers? He is trying to get better support for the game.

[rustorod]

I just wanted to say that I am very pleased with CF and Rod's support has been great. The Yahoo group has spawned lots of content for CF and Rod was even took time to write me up some creature conversions for my Keep on the Borderlands night. Thanks Rod, I'm an avid old school role player and still play first edition and advanced D&D. I love dungeon crawls and old TSR modules. This product has allowed to reintroduce old school adventures to my kids and introduced me to BRP/RQ.

Thanks again for your efforts Rod.

Mike

[USAFguy]

Atgxtg,

"it seems" and "no real" is wishy-washy. Nevertheless, let's drop it.

[silent_bob]

Rod,

It is shameful that Chaosium has failed to support your cool product. I am running a CF campaign and it is a blast!

However, I hope that whatever D100 system you choose as a vehicle for CF, maintains the current rules as close as possible. I love the way you have emulated the feel of AD&D 1st edition in a BRP context with hit locations and other BRP mechanics.

I am sure RQ6 and Magic World are great games, but they do not scratch the same nostalgic itch as CF.

I fear that Chaosium may be engaged in RPG snobbery because your game emulates AD&D. This does not mean that CF is only good for dungeon crawls, which it does very well, but like any RPG, the game reflects what the GM and players bring to it. I like running the old modules that I ran when I was 14 and new to the hobby. Now that my players and I are in our mid-40s we bring much more maturity and role playing to the Keep on the Borderlands.

Edited August 25, 2012 by silent_bob

[smiorgan]

Rod,

I think you should try to keep Classic Fantasy BRP - be it published by Chaosium or licensed.

It is very well integrated with the system. For instance, I like a lot how it expands on the (old) Magic World magic system.

I love Open Quest, but I'm not sure it's the ideal engine for Classic Fantasy. OQ is very rules light, while CF is quite a rules-heavy-ish implementation of BRP.

If you decide to self publish I would not rule out using the Gore engine, which is the closest to BRP. Gore is not supported anymore, but it should not be a big problem as long as it will be 99% BRP compatible.

Just my two cents,

Smiorgan

Smiorgan

[soltakss]

Yes, it's been three years. I'm not a full time writer; I do it when I can while working a full time job upwards of 50 to 60 hours a week, third shift. I tend to work all night and sleep all day. That's the nature of the beast and may not be changing anytime soon. Even then I TRY to get in one or two hours a day writing.

I'm lucky if I produce a book every 2 years at the moment, so I feel your pain. Just do as much as you can and that's fine for most of us.

[soltakss]

Isn't self-publishing an option? Why does Chaosium have to be involved?

And that is the point of this thread - exploring other. non-Chaosium options. Writing for BRP means that Chaosium have to be involved. Writing for an OGL D100 product means that CF can be self-published or even published in a partnership with another company.

[wbcreighton]

And that is the point of this thread - exploring other. non-Chaosium options. Writing for BRP means that Chaosium have to be involved. Writing for an OGL D100 product means that CF can be self-published or even published in a partnership with another company.

I'm curious how much of a difference it would make to the sales of CF if it wasn't written for BRP. How much involvement does Chaosium have for a licensed BRP product published by someone else ?

[Scootman1166]

While the majority of Classic Fantasy fans appear to believe that Open Quest is the best game system, if you cannot get Chaosium to pull their head of their hind quarters I sincerely hope you give RuneQuest 6 some thought. I own both games and while I feel that Open Quest is a good game it is too simplified in my opinion. One of the things I love about RuneQuest, BRP, and Classic Fantasy is the hit location system which was removed from Open Quest. Like Open Quest, the people behind RuneQuest 6 did streamline the game to increase playability, however, they did so without sacrificing many of the features that old school players like me enjoyed back in the day. So please do not overlook RuneQuest 6 while making your decision.

Scott

[Atgxtg]

I'm curious how much of a difference it would make to the sales of CF if it wasn't written for BRP.

That would probably depend on what system it was written for. Back when D&D 3E was around and WotC used the OGL, a lot of companies produced some 3E stuff just to generate revenue. Apparently one D&D product would finance the company's non D&D products for the year. But, as most of us are painfully aware, D100 isn't nearly as popular as D20. Not being affiliated with BRP would probably hurt the sales, unless CF hooked up with a bigger company (i.e. Mongoose). But, since CF already has a fanbase, it might not suffer as much as a new line.

How much involvement does Chaosium have for a licensed BRP product published by someone else ?

I think they get to make some decision to allow a third party product or not, some say as to content and get a piece of the profits, or a flat fee, I'm not sure which.

[threedeesix]

While the majority of Classic Fantasy fans appear to believe that Open Quest is the best game system, if you cannot get Chaosium to pull their head of their hind quarters I sincerely hope you give RuneQuest 6 some thought. I own both games and while I feel that Open Quest is a good game it is too simplified in my opinion. One of the things I love about RuneQuest, BRP, and Classic Fantasy is the hit location system which was removed from Open Quest. Like Open Quest, the people behind RuneQuest 6 did streamline the game to increase playability, however, they did so without sacrificing many of the features that old school players like me enjoyed back in the day. So please do not overlook RuneQuest 6 while making your decision.

Scott

Hi Scott,

You can rest assured that my intention is to retrofit the chosen system to Classic Fantasy and not the other way around. I honestly believe this can be done with either of the two excellent systems, and it's just a matter of which one to go with. If all goes according to plan, I think there will be little difference between the final version and the current Classic Fantasy book. However I would like to make it self-contained and not require an additional book to play, as it currently does.

However even if I decide to make it a supplement to either system and not self-contained, players won’t have to sift through pages of inappropriate weapons, equipment, powers etc. to find the stuff they need. This is no slight against the BGB. It serves its job perfectly as a generic set of rules and has assisted in the creation of countless BRP campaigns at my game table over the last several years and created many, many fond memories.

Rod

[Guest Vile Traveller]

If it's to be self-contained then Legend and OQ are easy options, as the entire rulebook for both (art excepted) is OGL. I think you'd need to speak to Loz & Pete about the licencing for RQ6, because I was under the impression that their idea is to licence supplements and not self-contained alternative rulebooks (but I may be entirely wrong there). But a CF "setting book" sounds eminently doable within your design parameters.