What happens when you're dead

[g33k]

@Darius West -- Short of a Great Old One showing up to Greg this thread, we've had the definitive word; it may not be to your taste, and YGWV (as does mine!), but it is definitive.

You are departing from civility and verging needlessly toward personal attacks.

 

NOT

COOL

 

[Noita]

15 minutes ago, g33k said:

@Darius West -- Short of a Great Old One showing up to Greg this thread, we've had the definitive word; it may not be to your taste, and YGWV (as does mine!), but it is definitive.

You are departing from civility and verging needlessly toward personal attacks.

 

NOT

COOL

 

Have to second this. 

[Pentallion]

Okay, so say you physically travelled to the underworld, you didn't heroquest to get there.  Someone casts sever spirit.  Your spirit separates from your body.  Your body stays though, right?  Because obviously, on a HQ it might return to where the ritual started, but in this case, you aren't in a ritual, you walked.  So if I'm correct and your body stays there, can your spirit reenter it freely?  If not, what magic is necessary to reunite the spirit with the body while both are in the underworld?

Edited December 20, 2016 by Pentallion

[Pentallion]

On 12/19/2016 at 0:24 AM, Jeff said:

Humakti may not be "called back from the dead in any way" - that means resurrection, summoned as a ghost, undead, or whatever. However, a Humakti can leave the Realm of the Dead if they know the secret path and it is their own actions - not the summoning of another. In that way, they repeat the deeds of their god. That is no more a contradiction in the cult's beliefs than the summoning of Chaos by Orlanth cultists as part of their rituals.

Ghosts in this world are spirits of the dead who *should* be in the Realm of the Dead but aren't for one reason or another.

But this whole discussion has now reached the "how many angels dance on the head of pins" point. 

I think that pretty much clears up the entire debate.  Except, of course, that we all know only three angels can dance on the head of a pin because after that, a little kid reaches the center of his tootsie roll pop after three licks.  Why the one has anything to do with the other no one knows, but the answer to both are the same.

[Tindalos]

59 minutes ago, Pentallion said:

Okay, so say you physically travelled to the underworld, you didn't heroquest to get there.  Someone casts sever spirit.  Your spirit separates from your body.  Your body stays though, right?  Because obviously, on a HQ it might return to where the ritual started, but in this case, you aren't in a ritual, you walked.  So if I'm correct and your body stays there, can your spirit reenter it freely?  If not, what magic is necessary to reunite the spirit with the body while both are in the underworld?

To quote the Xeotam Dialogues "This is a matter of semantics more than substance. Upon descent into the World of Darkness, a man’s physical form leaves him and returns to its basic elements just as if he had died on the surface. Descent to Nakala is death."

Leaving the middle world is leaving material existence behind. Whether climbing down the Hellcrack, or performing a ritual to visit your God's home, or sending your spirit into the Spirit World. But when they return home, they can reform/reinhabit their body as an instinctive action because it is natural to them.

In a HeroQuest, the effect of Sever Spirit would separate the quester's soul from its body -- permanently. When they tried to return home, they would not be able to return their body. At best, they might reform it, but not be able to inhabit it.

If the body is returned, then a casting of Resurrection might work. If not, then Divine Intervention would be necessary.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Tindalos

[Darius West]

On 12/20/2016 at 3:36 AM, g33k said:

@Darius West -- Short of a Great Old One showing up to Greg this thread, we've had the definitive word; it may not be to your taste, and YGWV (as does mine!), but it is definitive.

You are departing from civility and verging needlessly toward personal attacks.

 

NOT

COOL

 

I agree, not cool at all.  Having someone say " I am more important than you because I am an editor, and I don't care if you are correct." is not cool.  

This is the problem with an inflexible notion of canon.  When a logical inconsistency occurs, the dogmatics form a group think echo chamber and recite the error over and over again until they are convinced it is correct through repetition.

When presented with a solid reason why they are wrong and they close ranks and minds.  That is the very opposite of cool.  Especially considering that they are deaf to all entreaties and alternatives.  I find that intensely hard to respect as a response to anything.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Darius West

[g33k]

10 hours ago, Darius West said:

I agree, not cool at all.  Having someone say " I am more important than you because I am an editor, and I don't care if you are correct." is not cool. 

This is the problem with an inflexible notion of canon.  When a logical inconsistency occurs, the dogmatics form a group think echo chamber and recite the error over and over again until they are convinced it is correct through repetition.

When presented with a solid reason why they are wrong and they close ranks and minds.  That is the very opposite of cool.  Especially considering that they are deaf to all entreaties and alternatives.  I find that intensely hard to respect as a response to anything.

You appear to be taking things personally, too:  I didn't understand anything Jeff said as claiming or implying that he was "more important than you."   If you felt you'd been personally attacked, I understand the temptation to respond in-kind.

But to be clear as to the "logic" of "the canon:"  you have perfectly valid arguments.  There are good arguments on the other side, too, but your logic cannot be denied.

However, the logic doesn't apply.  The myth -- contradictions and all -- oversets it entirely.

More practically (in terms of what has been and will be published in books):  It is explicitly stated in existing canon, and it's the view of the current creative director.  It may be "wrong" in the sense of being "illogical" and/or "inconsistent," but it's how it is.

If you like, consider this:  perhaps your examples are all correct, but they all represent weird exceptions and corner cases and "trapdoors," rather than the "general case" (the odd and the exceptional, after all, often make more-memorable reportage and "better" stories than the same-ol' same-ol' ... ) .

And as always:  YGWV.

 

Edited December 21, 2016 by g33k

[MJ Sadique]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

This is the problem with an inflexible notion of canon.  When a logical inconsistency occurs, the dogmatics form a group think echo chamber and recite the error over and over again until they are convinced it is correct through repetition.

I perfectly understand this too because my Occidental part have also a lot of problems with the only dead/spirit can go underworld as much as Herowars' "only chaman can teleport"... Starting to understand a bit the trickster who wrote Glorantha Canons, I think the whole problem is not where all the discussion is going.

First of all,
We are all occidental whose brains had been installed with a problematic filter called physics / metaphysics. Like White bear vs red Moon where all magic is Physical (fireball / canon) or spiritual (chaman attacks) we all see our wolrd and Glorantha with the distinction of matter (physics) and soul (metaphysics). And this is where the problem lies for me.
Greg had written lot of gloranthan myths based on mythologies that are not influenced by theses greeks / occidentals notions of matter and souls.
I'll take the most simple example : In Japan myths, the yokai are spirit which can became material, sometimes living as humans and even having children and can also return in their spirit form without living a body or any matters behind them. The Very best example in "Sen to chihiro no kamikakushi (Spirited Away)" where Chihiro is send to the spirit world with her full body and soul. She did not leave her body behind, She is fully transformed in a spirit and send away in another Realm.

Like Tindalos quoted :

15 hours ago, Tindalos said:

To quote the Xeotam Dialogues "This is a matter of semantics more than substance. Upon descent into the World of Darkness, a man’s physical form leaves him and returns to its basic elements just as if he had died on the surface. Descent to Nakala is death."

These could be interpreted in another manner : All glorantha worlds, the sevens worlds of the creation and even the "after the start of time" Upper / Middle / UnderWorld are all made of Runes, the very same runes that compose any body and soul with different types of runes but still runes, may you be a spirit being or a living being

What consequences ? :
Most of men have to leave their body and go with their souls through the Western Gate to Hell. BUT Heroquester like Chihiro are able to get through the gate as Living Being with their full body_and_soul and become spirited away. The runes composing them are the same but they are a spirit (body_and_soul) in the Underworld. The only big problems is they have to find a way (or find the path like Jeff said) to get through a Eastern Gate and be un-spirited_away (Spirit being body_and_soul --> Living being body_and_soul).

People who lose their body, just lose a part of their runes and to be resurrected, they can :
-Go the easy way to sew the body and soul back (--> body_and_soul)
-Go the hard way in Underworld, Purify from death_rune_element in their body, gather and nourish their spirit (soul) to have a complete spirit (body_and_soul) and then find/bein guided to the East Gate and return form a spirit being to living being (body_and_soul).

One Last thing : Most Glorantha myths are written by Greg habits not to describe or state a Truth but as a point-of-view of the truth. Prince of Sartar is the must in this way : I don't think Greg will ever give, want to tell or even know what the Truth is ! The One who stick to the canon did not always know why, nor he have the tools to.

Don't blame them Darius.
As a Christian, I'll give you the best Religious Advice when someone stick to a canon without being able to answer you ... don't ask them more, they just don't know. Sometimes no one know, leave it for today...
 

Edited December 21, 2016 by MJ Sadique
a bit punctuation, like always

[Jeff]

As I think I have written in other threads, canon only applies to licensed publications. You are welcome to say that in YOUR Realm of the Dead, people who enter might still be alive. Or that you need to drink, eat, and defecate in the Underworld. Or in the Celestial Realm. Or that you still age if you are in the Court of the Dead or in the Celestial City. 

But under the assumption that people might be interested in knowing what advice I'd give to writers who are working on a scenario that takes the adventurers into the Realm of the Dead, I've answered and tried to articulate that answer. Hope that helps!

Jeff

[MOB]

MOB [wearing moderator hat here]

I don't think anyone has crossed a line in this very interesting thread yet, but let's keep it that way!

Jeff has provided a canon response from the perspective of the publisher, and that stands for all material to be published with Chaosium/MD's approval. Fortunately, going a long way back Greg generously propounded "YGMV" as a principle for Gloranthan fandom that continues to apply now and going forward. 

 

[MOB]

MOB [wearing contributor hat here]

Inconsistencies, self-contradictions and logical fallacies are a time-honoured and expected part of mythological/theological aetiology in the RW. Same applies to Glorantha...

 

Edited December 22, 2016 by MOB

[Noita]

6 hours ago, MOB said:

MOB [wearing contributor hat here]

Inconsistencies, self-contradictions and logical fallacies are a time-honoured and expected part of mythological/theological aetiology in the RW. Same applies to Glorantha...

 

Well said. Over thinking it just leads to a pain in the head. I'd rather give a Broo a pain in the head myself. With a mallet.

My pcs are currently getting swamped by horny lizard Broo in the Bleak Hills.

[Darius West]

9 hours ago, MOB said:

MOB [wearing contributor hat here]Inconsistencies, self-contradictions and logical fallacies are a time-honored and expected part of mythological/theological aetiology in the RW. Same applies to Glorantha...

I would run a hundred miles rather than be part of any of those dogmatic institutions, The fact you are prepared to write this is an acknowledgment of the fact that there are irreconcilable contradictions in play on this point.  I suspect we agree on that at least.

Apparently this one is set in stone across all cultures in Glorantha despite the fact it makes no sense at all.  Why can cultures vary on all points but the notion of being "dead" in the underworld?  RW mythology varies on this point, but most of the cultures that mainstream Glorantha draws on like the Greeks, the Norse and the Celts accept the notion of heroes being alive in the underworld. It is bad anthropology to suggest that ALL cultures will think the same way on any point too.  Next, Humakti heroquesters have potentially fatal and unlikely consequences from the idea, not to mention how doubtful trolls would feel about it.  So we have a massive contradiction, but somehow, unlike in the case of the myriad other contradictions, ALL Gloranthan cultures apparently think you are dead if you are in the underworld, and not an Orlanthi definition of all being 85% apparently, but 100%, despite the fact it doesn't hold up under scrutiny. They might vary immensely on every other issue, but apparently not this one.  Like I said, it's a group think echo chamber.  No-one is even seriously prepared to consider the notion that this point is not somehow "fixed in stone".  I find that absurd and I am surprised nobody else does.  Of all the points for all the cults to agree on, this is the one?  Why?  Because nobody has really seriously questioned it until now.

I mean, really, if this "dead in the underworld" rule applies, Humakti can't heroquest in the underworld, because dead is dead, and they can never come back.  Now I think they can, because I think Humakti know the difference between being dead and being alive better than any other cult, and they know they are alive in the underworld.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Darius West

[David Scott]

7 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Why can cultures vary on all points but the notion of being "dead" in the underworld?

You seem to be confusing cultural viewpoint with God Learnerism. I suggested earlier that we look at different cults and cultures and their practices, looking at their in-world perspectives rather than the absolutes of canon. Praxians for example have many different practices around death based on cults. Most have the seven day wait, then the Good Shepherd takes them to the Path of Silence that leads to Daka Fal's Hall. There they usually go to the Great Herd where Waha, Eiritha and their Many Friends live. This is where Praxians visit to meet their ancestors and the Great Ones. Eventually, the ancestors leave the Great Herd to be reincarnated, although some remain to teach and guide the living (much like lamas). There is some variation of course, for example Yelornans go to Yelorna's campfire in the Sky World. They can be called down to meet their living descendants in the Great Herd, often descending as small meteors. Praxians only travel to the spirit world if accompanied by a shaman or assistant. Going with your body attracts always Hungry Ghosts, the malign and other powerful spirits who want a body to occupy so they can fulfil their needs in the Middle World. Thed and Mallia's spirits are always on the lookout for a body to corrupt and pollute. Spirits aren't generally interested in those without bodies unless they are close by. It's the bodies that are important not the spirit. Few would risk the HeroQuest crossing to the otherworlds via the Spirit World without this help, unless they were practiced or powerful themselves. Most Khans have the ability to do it and some of the Tasks of Waha aid in this. In Waha and Daka Fal, Daka Fal teaches Waha how to tell the difference between the states of Living and Dead, and the songs to send those who are just spirits to the Good Shepard or the Path of the Dead. Those who have completed Waha and the Goddesses Dream, go right back into Eiritha's womb to meet Waha from before he was born. There they can see the Underworld through the eyes of the unborn god and experience the Dream that the Goddesses inhabit - it's the Green Age. Many Tasks take Khans to the Underworld to participate in the rites at the end of the World. 

[Darius West]

On 12/19/2016 at 7:24 PM, Jeff said:

Humakti may not be "called back from the dead in any way" - that means resurrection, summoned as a ghost, undead, or whatever. However, a Humakti can leave the Realm of the Dead if they know the secret path and it is their own actions - not the summoning of another.

If you are in a state that is defined as being "dead" then as a Humakti you are bound to remain that way.  if a Humakti has the ability to resurrect themselves they will not do it unless they are prepared to accept being thrown out of their cult.  And what is the difference between being dead because you are in the realm of the underworld and dead because you were killed in the Middle world?  Nothing.  A secret path back is just another form of resurrection... or maybe it is the knowledge that you aren't really dead in the underworld after all...

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

You seem to be confusing cultural viewpoint with God Learnerism. I suggested earlier that we look at different cults and cultures and their practices, looking at their in-world perspectives rather than the absolutes of canon. Praxians for example have many different practices around death based on cults. Most have the seven day wait, then the Good Shepherd takes them to the Path of Silence that leads to Daka Fal's Hall. There they usually go to the Great Herd where Waha, Eiritha and their Many Friends live. This is where Praxians visit to meet their ancestors and the Great Ones. Eventually, the ancestors leave the Great Herd to be reincarnated, although some remain to teach and guide the living (much like lamas). There is some variation of course, for example Yelornans go to Yelorna's campfire in the Sky World. They can be called down to meet their living descendants in the Great Herd, often descending as small meteors. Praxians only travel to the spirit world if accompanied by a shaman or assistant. Going with your body attracts always Hungry Ghosts, the malign and other powerful spirits who want a body to occupy so they can fulfill their needs in the Middle World. Thed and Mallia's spirits are always on the lookout for a body to corrupt and pollute. Spirits aren't generally interested in those without bodies unless they are close by. It's the bodies that are important not the spirit. Few would risk the HeroQuest crossing to the otherworlds via the Spirit World without this help, unless they were practiced or powerful themselves. Most Khans have the ability to do it and some of the Tasks of Waha aid in this. In Waha and Daka Fal, Daka Fal teaches Waha how to tell the difference between the states of Living and Dead, and the songs to send those who are just spirits to the Good Shepard or the Path of the Dead. Those who have completed Waha and the Goddesses Dream, go right back into Eiritha's womb to meet Waha from before he was born. There they can see the Underworld through the eyes of the unborn god and experience the Dream that the Goddesses inhabit - it's the Green Age. Many Tasks take Khans to the Underworld to participate in the rites at the end of the World. 

On the contrary, I see this notion of being "dead" in the underworld as a form of God Learner monomyth that has been superimposed on cults where it has no place.  We are told that all spirits pass beyond the Gates of Dusk, are judged, and then go to their fate.  You say you can take your body with you on these quests, but it attracts unwanted attention from unpleasant spirits.  I have no problem with that notion; it should be problematic and terribly risky, but the body should not automatically be considered dead.  Being alive in such a situation and taking those terrible existential risks is the very definition of heroism after all.

As an aside, as you seem to like shamanic cultures, consider the Lightbringer Quest for a moment as a shamanic journey to rescue Yelm for a moment.  If those partaking in the quest have lost their connection to the realm of the living, how are they any different to dead Yelm whom they are trying to save?  How can they drag anyone into the land of the living if they themselves are dead?

Edited December 22, 2016 by Darius West

[Darius West]

On 12/19/2016 at 7:09 PM, boztakang said:

Humakt enforced his own Truth that was stronger, and so killed Orlanth too. But Humakt showed the secret of his honor and justice and let his brother arise again through the Lightbringers’ Quest. 
 

So, as a quick question on this point.  Did Humakt kill Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, Eurmal and Flesh Man too ? How did they all wind up dead?  Seems pretty dishonorable to kill poor CA.   I thought Humakt liked her?

Flesh man in particular is of interest I should think...  Being a man of flesh in the underworld is a really interesting point if you think about it.   After all, if he is flesh and dead in the underworld; isn't he a zombie if he keeps walking around ?  Or perhaps he is still alive?

Edited December 22, 2016 by Darius West

[Steve]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

If you are in a state that is defined as being "dead" then as a Humakti you are bound to remain that way.  if a Humakti has the ability to resurrect themselves they will not do it unless they are prepared to accept being thrown out of their cult.  And what is the difference between being dead because you are in the realm of the underworld and dead because you were killed in the Middle world?  Nothing.  A secret path back is just another form of resurrection... or maybe it is the knowledge that you aren't really dead in the underworld after all...

You can't see the difference between someone else calling the Humakti back to life (e.g. through a Chalana Arroy resurrection), and the Humakti himself choosing the leave the underworld and travel back to the land of the living? What is your canon source for saying "If you are in a state that is defined as being "dead" then as a Humakti you are bound to remain that way"?

There's a big difference between someone else resurrecting a Humakti who has been killed in the living world, versus a Humakti who chooses to venture into the Underworld and chooses again to return.

 

[Darius West]

16 minutes ago, Steve said:

You can't see the difference between someone else calling the Humakti back to life (e.g. through a Chalana Arroy resurrection), and the Humakti himself choosing the leave the underworld and travel back to the land of the living? What is your canon source for saying "If you are in a state that is defined as being "dead" then as a Humakti you are bound to remain that way"?

There's a big difference between someone else resurrecting a Humakti who has been killed in the living world, versus a Humakti who chooses to venture into the Underworld and chooses again to return.

I don't think Humakt or any hero quester who is physically alive on entering underworld is actually dead.  I think that is a poetic affectation that others have mistaken for a truth.  If it were true, then no Humakti should ever leave the underworld once they enter it for any reason.  My source is Cults of Prax.  As resurrection is defined as all forms of coming back from the dead by any means, not just the spell, the above follows.  Otherwise Humakt would probably be a cult that accepted undeath too.  They are prepared to accept other people resurrecting, but don't think they like it.

Edited December 22, 2016 by Darius West

[Steve]

18 hours ago, Darius West said:

I don't think Humakt or any hero quester who is physically alive on entering underworld is actually dead.  I think that is a poetic affectation that others have mistaken for a truth.  If it were true, then no Humakti should ever leave the underworld once they enter it for any reason.

We know that's what you think, I believe you may have mentioned it once or twice before ...

What is your source behind your second statement, as I also asked in the post that you quoted? I.e. what is your source for saying that a Humakti may never return from the dead, as opposed to him/her never being able to be resurrected (e.g. through the actions of another). Are you sure that the former is not just your own interpretation?

Edit - hmm, it's not very good forum practice to go back and edit your previous posted based on something that I asked in a subsequent reply - i.e. after me asking you for your source in this reply, you went back and edited the post that I was replying to, adding the source. It would have made things a lot more readable if you'd simply added a further reply saying that your source is Cults of Prax.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Steve

[Zit]

3 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I don't think Humakt or any hero quester who is physically alive on entering underworld is actually dead.  I think that is a poetic affectation that others have mistaken for a truth.  If it were true, then no Humakti should ever leave the underworld once they enter it for any reason.

How I see the thing is that a Humakti refuses to be called back to life without his consent or Humakt's consent, as written in the cult description. And when killed, this is Humakt's decision to call him at His side, so no Humakti would go against Humakt's decision. But travelling to the Underworld for a Heroquest, dead or alive, is another matter. I don't see why Humakt shall not accept his worshippers to be provisory dead and go back to life, as long as it is to serve him.

[boztakang]

43 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So, as a quick question on this point.  Did Humakt kill Issaries, Lhankor Mhy, Chalana Arroy, Eurmal and Flesh Man too ? How did they all wind up dead?  Seems pretty dishonorable to kill poor CA.   I thought Humakt liked her?

Flesh man in particular is of interest I should think...  Being a man of flesh in the underworld is a really interesting point if you think about it.   After all, if he is flesh and dead in the underworld; isn't he a zombie if he keeps walking around ?  Or perhaps he is still alive?

In the sense that he "is" death, of course he did. They died passing through the Gates of Dusk. Once those clanged shut behind them, they were cut off from the middle world and unable to act there. The only way they were coming back was to successfully complete their quest. 

Being a man of flesh in the underworld makes you troll-bait, not a zombie. Even Dead trolls need to eat. It would have been very rude of the Lightbringers to head off to such a dark place without something to feed to the trolls.

I fear that you are beating an underworld horse here...

[g33k]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

My source is Cults of Prax.  As resurrection is defined as all forms of coming back from the dead by any means, not just the spell, the above follows.  Otherwise Humakt would probably be a cult that accepted undeath too.

I do not believe you have your fact(s) correct on this point.  I have my copy of Cults of Prax beside me.  On p.33 (section C., last sentence of 1st paragraph), it says "Humakt worshippers are never Resurrected."

It does NOT define resurrection as "all forms of coming back from the dead by any means" (that I can find).  Is your source for that a common-sense or dictionary definition?  Or do you have some piece of Gloranthan canon?  Because I would presume (from the capital letter) that the VERY specific meaning of "a Resurrection spell" (or any spell performing the same function) is the intended use.

On p.35 (section C. BENEFITS, beginning of 2nd paragraph) it says, "A cult member will never be called back from the dead in any way.  They are considered to have been called by the god and it would be sacreligious to reverse the situation.  If they are called back, they will single-mindedly try to kill their summoner..."

This appears to be language very specific to a 3rd party summoning/resurrecting Humakti.  It does indeed allow, on the face of it, for a self-directed quest to the Underworld and back:  becoming Dead and then coming back from the Dead.

If you decided to go Heroquesting to the Underworld, Humakt hasn't called you (per my reading of CoP).

 

Edited December 23, 2016 by g33k

[Pentallion]

11 hours ago, Darius West said:

I don't think Humakt or any hero quester who is physically alive on entering underworld is actually dead.  I think that is a poetic affectation that others have mistaken for a truth.  If it were true, then no Humakti should ever leave the underworld once they enter it for any reason.  My source is Cults of Prax.  As resurrection is defined as all forms of coming back from the dead by any means, not just the spell, the above follows.  Otherwise Humakt would probably be a cult that accepted undeath too.  They are prepared to accept other people resurrecting, but don't think they like it.

Your alleged contradiction, however, isn't about what you think, it's about what Jeff says.  Jeff says they are actually dead.  So you can't dodge the legitimate question posed to you under those terms as you're arguing that what Jeff says is inconsistent.  But what Jeff says ISN'T inconsistent.  The burden of proof lies upon you.  So let's go back and look:  Jeff says Humakt CAN and DOES choose to walk out of Hell.  No problemo.  Jeff says the only taboo is being brought back from Hell by anyone else.  Surely, as lord of Death, Humakt gets the say over who comes back from Hell, not CA or anyone else casting a resurrection spell.  Death is HIS rune.  Since HE walked out of Hell so can his faithful.  But ONLY he and his faithful are the masters of death.  no one else can bring back a Humakti because that would be giving them power over death itself, which they CANNOT have.

You don't have to agree, nor even like that reality, but it's not inconsistent nor contradictory in any way and simply ignoring that, or saying "I don't think" isn't an argument, it's being argumentative and there's a difference.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Pentallion

[Belgath]

Ok the giants  that use the cradle's to take their babies to the underworld to, grow up. Are thay cusiderd dead? One other question if giants  going into the underworld is a natural part of the giants lifecycle what did they do befor The spike exploded?