Runequest 1978

[seneschal]

We've had lengthy discussions of the virtues and vices of Runequest 2 ("Classic") vs. Runequest 3.  We've reviled Mongoose Runequest 1, sneered at GORE, and charted the evolution of MRQ2 into Legend and Runequest 6/Mythras.  We've ooooohhh'd and aaaahhh'd about the upcoming glories of Runequest:  Glorantha.  But I notice the original 1978 game is available for download for $10.  As a guy who loved Melee/Wizard and Classic Traveller, I'm curious about the heady early days of the game.  How was it different from the version(s) we're used to and what made it worthy of a second edition?  What enabled Runequest to give Dungeons & Dragons, The Fantasy Trip, Tunnels and Trolls and other early fantasy games a run for their money?

[Richard S.]

I doubt RQ really gave other games, or at least D&D, "a run for their money", though it was definitely popular for a short time. I wasn't even alive at that time but I'd hazard a guess that RQ was probably successful due to its novelty (a focus on skills and a d100-based core system mainly) and the fact that there were so few rpgs on the market at the time compared to today's bloat. Nowadays RQ has faded into obscurity somewhat, surpassed by its little brother CoC and with the fantasy RPG market filled to the brim with far more streamlined and probably objectively better systems. Not saying that RQ isn't a solid game, but the mechanics that Chaosium is hearkening back to in RQG are quite frankly a bit outdated in my opinion, doing away with several of what I see as improvements made by Mongoose and TDM.

Apologies to the RQ elitists out there.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Richard S.

[David Scott]

3 hours ago, seneschal said:

what made it worthy of a second edition?

The first edition was rushed out for a convention and like likely had only a small print run:

 

[Steve]

5 hours ago, Richard S. said:

... it was definitely popular for a short time. I wasn't even alive at that time ...

Umm, you've missed quite a lot ...

[Paid a bod yn dwp]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

Umm, you've missed quite a lot ...

Yes RuneQuest 2 was a big deal in the U.K. Games workshop did a good job of promoting and marketing it in the early 80’s. Using an alternative cover, but similar subject, the cover was used on RuneQuest miniature figures boxed sets too, There was  a quality deluxe feel to the sculpts and packaging of the minitures, which married well with the RPG rules. 

Beside that the rules and setting were a very strong alternative to D&D

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, Steve said:

Umm, you've missed quite a lot ...

 

2 minutes ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Yes RuneQuest 2 was a big deal in the U.K. Games workshop did a good job of promoting and marketing it in the early 80’s. Using an alternative cover, but similar subject, the cover was used on RuneQuest miniature figures boxed sets too, There was  a quality deluxe feel to the sculpts and packaging of the minitures, which married well with the RPG rules. 

Beside that the rules and setting were a very strong alternative to D&D

Ah, okay. I was going by what I've heard and my own assumptions. Thanks for clearing that up.

[seneschal]

Oops!  Missed that earlier thread on the PDF release, although I did search for previous discussions of RQ1.

[scott-martin]

10 hours ago, seneschal said:

How was it different from the version(s) we're used to and what made it worthy of a second edition? 

The embedded setting looks better spelled "Glorantha" and not "Glorontha," which answers both questions. Also print runs were small so when the first one was gone they got a chance to fine-tune armor and protective magic, kill the ambush system, etc. And while you're already doing that, might as well insert nicer maps!

[jajagappa]

11 hours ago, seneschal said:

What enabled Runequest to give Dungeons & Dragons, The Fantasy Trip, Tunnels and Trolls and other early fantasy games a run for their money?

I played T&T and was aware of how D&D worked/played.

And then discovered RQ.  Here was a system that did not restrict a character to being one specific type.  A warrior could have spells and magic.  A priest could wield a weapon.  Each and every character could be unique with their set of skills and abilities.  Here was a system without forced alignments.  Here was a system where you didn't make artificial jumps in 'levels' but simply progressed skill-by-skill as you used the skills and gained experience.  It just felt real - a feeling I did not get from most other systems at the time.

On top of that it had a really cool, epic game world that wasn't just about looting the next dungeon.  It had elder races that were playable and had their own goals and motivations - not just being monster fodder for adventurers.

[Yelm's Light]

59 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I played T&T and was aware of how D&D worked/played.

And then discovered RQ.  Here was a system that did not restrict a character to being one specific type.  A warrior could have spells and magic.  A priest could wield a weapon.  Each and every character could be unique with their set of skills and abilities.  Here was a system without forced alignments.  Here was a system where you didn't make artificial jumps in 'levels' but simply progressed skill-by-skill as you used the skills and gained experience.  It just felt real - a feeling I did not get from most other systems at the time.

On top of that it had a really cool, epic game world that wasn't just about looting the next dungeon.  It had elder races that were playable and had their own goals and motivations - not just being monster fodder for adventurers.

Melee felt a bit more 'realistic' (I know, strange to say with a FRPG) than the stuff that was out there.  I never much liked the Vancian magic system, either, so this gave me an alternative.

Granted, I got in a bit later than '78, but RQ(2) had a developed, consistent, and interesting setting, unlike the others.  T&T and TFT always felt 'beer and pretzels' to me (though I was a big fan and player of Melee and Wizard...and, completely out of the realm of fantasy, O.G.R.E. and Car Wars), and D&D just got old when I was with a large group of players who were always interested in trying out the 'new stuff.'  (Mostly, anyway; I still couldn't sell Ringworld to them.)

[Ethereal]

2 hours ago, Paid a bod yn dwp said:

Beside that the rules and setting were a very strong alternative to D&D

I was introduced to AD&D, Runequest 2, and Traveller around the same time in 1982 while stationed in Korea. I had played Boothill while in Germany and became interested in Role-playing, but most of my generation was not interested in Cowboy's. The few who played Traveller, quickly turned it into a Monopoly type game. Who could make the most money. Game only lasted a month or so. AD&D attracted a group of 4-5 players. They eventually moved to another room to play and retained the same amount of players. Their game ran the longest. Runequest was the largest group and eventually attracted 17 players, all at the same time. While most of us were there for only a year, it was every Saturday and some Sunday's. The problem with the Runequest game was only one G.M. So G.M. burnout was what finally stopped the game.

So I have a very personal view of AD&D and Runequest based on that experience. I played all 3 games. And play AD&D and RQ2 in the current group I play with. I run Runequest 2 and play AD&D.

Advantages/Disadvantages to AD&D = Quick Combat, restrictive in PC choices, magic, races, class, and abilities. Hack and slash in most cases. (Depends on the G.M. and his abilities/experience to run the game.) Faster pace. Have to give more thought about magic spells/time looking up for use. (I have a habit of not paying attention to higher level spells until PC is a higher level.) Experience math. Gradient level Magic.

Advantages/Disadvantages to Runequest = Maybe slower combat (hit locations, RQ2 Bog down in higher percentile combat.) Combat skills and abilities are based on percentile, easier to understand and see how works. Grittier combat. Lower PC's easier to kill. Only 2 levels of magic, with lower level (Battle magic) available to all. Most if not all intelligent races available as PC. Most abilities available to most PC's.

There is a lot more that I could analyze in the differences, but I play both and enjoy both. I think the biggest advantage is how well the D.M. learns and runs the game.

Both Runequest and D&D started with basics. D&D, a three book boxed game, with ideas about how to run the game, etc. Runequest, a single book, with a different world, new concepts of magic and combat, both magic and physical. Small easy to learn games, with simple laid out mechanics. When I introduce a new group to Runequest I usually start out with Judges Guild  “Duck Tower” and/or “Duck Pond”. Both are primarily hack and slash while the Players learn the game mechanics. Then on to Apple lane (Small town adventure to learn adventure continuity, Snake Pipe Hollow [I like Campaigns]), City of Lei Tabor (Applying Skills) and Broken Tree Inn (Oh goody, massed combat).

Then into Glorantha proper and the campaigns. Finally into a sandbox world I have been working on and other adventures. (The long dry spell of Runequest forced me to become more creative in attracting and retaining more players. I still like working on it.)

 

For new G.M.s, I recommend starting out with the basics of each system. In RQ start out with the small book of BRP. Add Future World, Magic World or Super World from the Worlds of Wonder Boxed Set or Specific sections from the Big Gold Book of BRP. About a year ago I ran a Future World Campaign for 26 Sundays. My players enjoyed it and have asked when I will run it again. But having learned the mechanics and style I have the option of increasing the complexity with either Ringworld, Other Suns, River of Heaven or Mythras Space. A gradual learning curve for me and a gradual learning curve for my players.

 

I am hoping that Chaosium will come out with another Worlds of Wonder or similar book or set.

 

 

[Rick Meints]

I started playing AD&D in the late 70s, around the time the Dungeon Masters Guide, Monster Manual, and Players Handbook first came out. I had previously bought the "Holmes Basic" D&D boxed set but only read it because I couldn't find a gaming group in my neighborhood. I tried Tunnels and Trolls a few times around 1978, but nobody had any interest in playing it other than the guy who owned it. I bought Melee and Wizard in their little boxes around 1980. They were incredibly simple games that after a while didn't really have any depth, although they were very easy to get people brand new to gaming to try, since you could teach and play a game in just a few minutes. I bought the Traveller little black box of books around this time as well, and a few of my friends played it for a bit, but the modules for it were kind of lame. It didn't hold our interest because it didn't really have any sort of experience system either, which we missed after playing AD&D for many months (Giants and Drow series of modules). We dabbled in Boot Hill, but it was too easy to die in gunfights, and Gamma World was ok, but it didn't have many modules for it and was poorly supported. I mainly found out about other RPGs via Dragon Magazine (my subscription started with issue #44). That's my general gaming background, with the exception of not detailing my wargaming background.

I never played 1st edition RuneQuest, since it came out in 1978 when I was 12, and I had only been playing AD&D for a short time. I remember seeing the color cover RQ2 book in local game shops but I didn't buy it. I started playing RQ2 when our GM bought the deep 2" boxed set and Cults of Prax in either late '79 or early '80. We played home-brew scenarios before running through all of Griffin Mountain in 1981. 1981 was an amazing year for me. Between playing Griffin Mountain my GM also bought Call of Cthulhu that year, and his brother bought the Stormbringer boxed set. That said, almost all of my other gaming friends outside of my gaming group played AD&D. I used to go on scout campouts where a lot of AD&D was played, but other than Car Wars there was no interest in playing anything by Chaosium, or anything else. Because of that, I didn't know anything about RuneQuest 1 until I met Greg Stafford in 1994, at RQ Con 1 in Baltimore. Being a small convention of about 100 people there was a lot of opportunity to chat with people for longer periods of time. Greg was nice enough to start talking with me about the early days then, and in some ways that ongoing conversation has continued to this day. RuneQuest 1 was only around for about 9-12 months. It debuted at Origins 1978 in Ann Arbor, MI. By May of 1979 they had sold out of the 1st edition. They started selling the 2nd edition in October of 1979. According to company records approximately 2800 copies of RQ1 were sold in 1978, and another 1244 were sold in 1979. That makes me believe that at least 4,000 copies of RQ1 were printed. It had a very short lifespan, unless you were one of the playtesters who got involved somewhere along the way between July 4th 1976 when development on the game started, and June of 1978 when it debuted. RQ1 made a pretty big splash at Origins and Gen Con that year.  

[styopa]

28 minutes ago, Rick Meints said:

I started playing AD&D in the late 70s, around the time the Dungeon Masters Guide, Monster Manual, and Players Handbook first came out. I had previously bought the "Holmes Basic" D&D boxed set but only read it because I couldn't find a gaming group in my neighborhood. I tried Tunnels and Trolls a few times around 1978, but nobody had any interest in playing it other than the guy who owned it. I bought Melee and Wizard in their little boxes around 1980. They were incredibly simple games that after a while didn't really have any depth, although they were very easy to get people brand new to gaming to try, since you could teach and play a game in just a few minutes. I bought the Traveller little black box of books around this time as well, and a few of my friends played it for a bit, but the modules for it were kind of lame. It didn't hold our interest because it didn't really have any sort of experience system either, which we missed after playing AD&D for many months (Giants and Drow series of modules). We dabbled in Boot Hill, but it was too easy to die in gunfights, and Gamma World was ok, but it didn't have many modules for it and was poorly supported. I mainly found out about other RPGs via Dragon Magazine (my subscription started with issue #44). That's my general gaming background, with the exception of not detailing my wargaming background.

The similarities here are a little scary.  Almost identical (my 1st Dragon mag was #43).

RQ here in MN was (I believe) pretty nearly absent from the gaming community as far as I knew at the time, this being really the core of D&D land.  I only stumbled on RQ by joining a pickup game at my 1st GenCon in 82.  I always thought it was Steve Perrin that ran it, but IIRC he said he was never at that GenCon so I don't know who was the kind soul that ran that little game that's had me playing/dm'ing it for 35+ years. 

Looking back now, I can't quite explain how this game grabbed me, with my initial experience being a feeble duck whose primary skill was alchemy in a party getting murdered in the Big Rubble.  (shakes head) 

[g33k]

<heh>   I too have a similar-ish arc to the campaign of my life...

In the late 70s, Gamma World 1e was my first game (but my story is better:  I met my wife-to-be at that first session where we made characters), followed shortly by AD&D.  Saw (but never played) Boot Hill, Top Secret, other TSR from that era.  I had recently formed the "Chess Club" at my high school, and some card games occasionally got played too; but with the advent of RPGs it rapidly became a general "gaming" club.

However, we never cared about "support" or "modules" -- we played 100% self-made adventures using just the core rulebook(s)... sucky support didn't matter to us, nor good support.  Similarly for Dragon mag -- it was interesting, but not enough so to buy or subscribe (occasionally an idea from Dragon would find its way into our games, but usually didn't stick).

I found a gen-u-wine RPG-heavy FLGS in late 1980 or early '81, and I expanded into Runequest 2e (and Traveller LBB).

Many other games followed...