HP in RQG

[galafrone]

Hi there

i just wanted to know how the community feels about the HP being basically just a measure of CON with some little adjustments and not more the average of CON and SIZ

Actually with this system ducks have an average hp total of 12 and the dark trolls 13.. and if the latters are unlucky the can easily being worse than ducks.

So, fellow gamers, you are playing with the HP total as it is or ... not ?

[PhilHibbs]

It's an entirely fair comment, RQG (and RQ2) have very much flattened HP curves compared to RQ3. It has the "advantage" (which some may legitimately disagree with) that adventurers have a decent chance of taking down the big monsters, but the disadvantage that two big monsters against each other will result in the first hit being an instant kill. The game isn't about monsters vs monsters though.

[galafrone]

what actually gives me some trouble accepting the RQG system are the hp in the locations. A duck can really have a location with more HP than a troll.

I think it's fairly silly.

 

[g33k]

If I _was_ going to make a HR on this, I'd shift HP over to being SIZ with a minor bump from CON.

I don't think (CON+SIZ)/2 is enough of a difference to HR away from the RAW.

YGMV

[galafrone]

Just now, g33k said:

If I _was_ going to make a HR on this, I'd shift HP over to being SIZ with a minor bump from CON.

I don't think (CON+SIZ)/2 is enough of a difference to HR away from the RAW.

YGMV

that's interesting. but this way the siz will become drastically punitive for the smaller races 

in this way ducks will basically be unplayable (as trollkins, etc) while the "giant races" will be almost impossible to kill

[Wrestlepig]

32 minutes ago, galafrone said:

Hi there

i just wanted to know how the community feels about the HP being basically just a measure of CON with some little adjustments and not more the average of CON and SIZ

Actually with this system ducks have an average hp total of 12 and the dark trolls 13.. and if the latters are unlucky the can easily being worse than ducks.

So, fellow gamers, you are playing with the HP total as it is or ... not ?

I think keeping it as CON-focused helps mechanically, so the duck doesn't get killed by a sword-swing. SIZ is also a stat that gets factored into a lot of things a bit as well, so you want to be careful about making it more prominent. I agree it's not realistic, or at least representative of the idea, but I think it's for the best mechanically.

[DreadDomain]

4 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It's an entirely fair comment, RQG (and RQ2) have very much flattened HP curves compared to RQ3. It has the "advantage" (which some may legitimately disagree with) that adventurers have a decent chance of taking down the big monsters, but the disadvantage that two big monsters against each other will result in the first hit being an instant kill. The game isn't about monsters vs monsters though.

Hmmm... To be honest, the advantage was obvious to me but the disadvantage you state escaped me until now. A potential solution would be to offer a much bigger impact from SIZ to HP i.e. Each +1 SIZ over 15 (number pulled out of my bums) gives +1 HP. Big creature would e terrifying (justifiably so) but they could also battle one another.

Also note that huge creatures usually also have armour points (thick skins) so it does help the issue even if it does not resolve it.

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, galafrone said:

Hi there

i just wanted to know how the community feels about the HP being basically just a measure of CON with some little adjustments and not more the average of CON and SIZ

Actually with this system ducks have an average hp total of 12 and the dark trolls 13.. and if the latters are unlucky the can easily being worse than ducks.

So, fellow gamers, you are playing with the HP total as it is or ... not ?

I agree.

I'd say it's an attempt to balance the game in a world that's inherently unfair... Which to me is odd.

Simple houserule could be CON + 1/2 SIZ. Sure, ducks are going to suffer against Great Trolls (and most Dark Trolls), but only slightly against humans. Humans will suffer only slightly against Dark Trolls, and may think twice about Great Trolls... 

[styopa]

4 hours ago, galafrone said:

that's interesting. but this way the siz will become drastically punitive for the smaller races 

in this way ducks will basically be unplayable (as trollkins, etc) while the "giant races" will be almost impossible to kill

If you think about it, an avian-boned small creature SHOULD BE FRAGILE AND EASILY HARMED.  Fundamentally realistic.

But then look at the (angry) responses to my previous suggestion that things that are smaller and weaker IRL should be smaller and weaker in game.   Crazy, I know.  But nope, abandon the unassailable reality of human dimorphism because "somehow" that deprecates women?  I'm shorter than Kareem Abdul Jabbar...I don't feel deprecated.

I think games should simulate reality as well as reasonably possible, not bend mechanics to fit...ideology I guess?    Barring magic, smaller things should be weaker and easier to kill than big things.  CERTAINLY magic in Glorantha can overcome disadvantages in size and strength, but to hand-wave-away reality because it doesn't fit what we wish it to...?

[Julian Lord]

I personally like the Mongoose RQ version of this, which uses HP numbers for each hit location, but doesn't have a total HP number.

[Uthred]

30 minutes ago, styopa said:

CERTAINLY magic in Glorantha can overcome disadvantages in size and strength, but to hand-wave-away reality because it doesn't fit what we wish it to...?

The irony of complaining about people wilfully ignoring "reality" while wilfully ignoring that Gloranthan reality from physics on up explicitly functions differently is, well too sad to be truly amusing, but its something all right and thats not even getting into "Realism justifies my sexism!"

[Bill the barbarian]

7 hours ago, galafrone said:

i just wanted to know how the community feels about the HP being basically just a measure of CON with some little adjustments and not more the average of CON and SIZ

 

I liked it when it came out in RQ 3 as the average of CON and SIZ because it eliminated the need for a table (yay). Then I didn't give it another thought. When the tables came back in RQ G i groaned a little but... I do admit that I like the design notes of Jeff's when he explained that by large critters having lower numbers it makes it easier for the standard murder hobos to get another silhouette of a dead giant on their shield. Who doesn't want to go collecting dead monster trophies. after all. 

In fairness I am ambivalent. No tables good, killing big ugly rich things good...

Cheers

Edited June 30, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

allergy

???

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, Shiningbrow said:

allergy

See edit. 

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, styopa said:

But nope, abandon the unassailable reality of human dimorphism because "somehow" that deprecates women? 

I know I only wrote it about 3 times in that thread, and thus obviously hadn't achieved the required number (which I'm guessing might be about 17, but I can't be arsed writing it that many times), but it's clearly written in the GtG that Gloranthan humans are not  Earth humans...

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

See edit. 

Ah... Too fast!

I thought it might have been "enemy".

[Bill the barbarian]

3 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

but I can't be arsed writing it that many times)

?

[Shiningbrow]

8 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

?

You know those situations where you say/write something useful and relevant... And it apparently gets ignored? So, you say/write it again, and again is ignored... So you end up saying "how many times do I have to tell you?"

Yeah, I'm suspecting it's 17 for most things ... Just because. 

[DreadDomain]

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I liked it when it came out in RQ 3 as the average of CON and SIZ because it eliminated the need for a table (yay). Then I didn't give it another thought. When the tables came back in RQ G i groaned a little but... I do admit that I like the design notes of Jeff's when he explained that by large critters having lower numbers it makes it easier for the standard murder hobos to get another silhouette of a dead giant on their shield. Who doesn't want to go collecting dead monster trophies. after all. 

In fairness I am ambivalent. No tables good, killing big ugly rich things good...

Cheers

Well, I for one believed RQ3 was a better base to build from (and scaling back what did not quite work) but the designers thought otherwise. More power to them. RQG is a good game. It could have been better. 

But it's only my opinion.

Edited June 30, 2019 by DreadDomain

[styopa]

9 hours ago, Uthred said:

 "Realism justifies my sexism!"

And here I was thinking that saying "men are usually bigger and stronger than women" was oddly, just a fact.  Are objective facts still allowed in 2019?  

Who knew that it was illustrative of my entire psyche?  LOL

Some people would wonder why the attempt to dehumanize (frankly: demonize) someone with whom you simply disagree.

[Uthred]

38 minutes ago, styopa said:

And here I was thinking that saying "men are usually bigger and stronger than women" was oddly, just a fact.  Are objective facts still allowed in 2019?  

Who knew that it was illustrative of my entire psyche?  LOL

Some people would wonder why the attempt to dehumanize (frankly: demonize) someone with whom you simply disagree.

Honestly I think you're doing a bang-up job of dragging yourself through the muck, why would I bother piling on? But no, keep telling me how in a game world where reality is based on magical runes your "objective facts" justify your sexism. The rules of the game reflect the physical reality of the setting. The only purpose of the "realism" you want to inject is to make it less appealing and less mechanically sound to play a female combatant (a role the book goes out of its way to say is common). But sure, your concern is "realism". 

Edited June 30, 2019 by Uthred

[Shiningbrow]

29 minutes ago, styopa said:

And here I was thinking that saying "men are usually bigger and stronger than women" was oddly, just a fact.  Are objective facts still allowed in 2019?

It would be if a) it was Earth, and b) we're talking about humans (and various other animals too).

But, a) it's Glorantha, and b) they're not 100% analogous to humans on Earth... (#5...)

[Jeff]

Gang, please return this thread to discussion of how hit points are calculated and whether you want to home rule some new mechanism. But I don't want to have this become an ideological discussion about things beyond calculation of hit points. So knock it off or I shut it down. 

[HreshtIronBorne]

Thank you, Jeff. 

 

I am sort of ambivalent about the new HP calculation system. I spent a long time playing RQ3, so I am fairly biased towards that calculation. We also had access to Strengthening and Armoring Enchantments in the basic rules in RQ3. The Core Rules for RQ:G suggest we are going to get them or something to replace them in the coming GM Guide. The toughest part of the flattened HP Curves for creatures and Humans alike is that damage numbers haven't changed at all really. Our Humakti PC is nearly always lethal if his sword connects to a target, regardless of parry. 4d8 (8d8 special) + 2d6 + 2d6 (Boon of Kargan Tor) + 8 (Bladesharp 8 ) = 40 average damage on a normal hit. Same Humakti PC has 19 HP after training CON for several seasons. He now has 17 CON and 17 SIZ. Granted ExampleHumakti.JPEG has as much iron armor and padding as he can physically strap to himself and carry. It only gets him to 12 AP Chest, 13 AP abdomen, and 10 AP everywhere else, according to how our GM reads the armor layering rules and ENC and stuff. With magic he can get a good grip more AP for a little while. Still. Cuts himself completely in half should he fumble and hit self. LOL. We have already seen him cut the shaman in half three different times because of accidental Fumbles. He NEVER stands near the Humakti anymore. 

Edited June 30, 2019 by HreshtIronBorne

[10baseT]

I use the average of CON + SIZ. And if there's a 0.5 remainder, I even let the players keep it in their general HP. (they just note it with a little '+' sign by their HP). It didn't make things easier or harder, but i felt it reflected things better without any hassle or rework. (I play a duck and his HP are better than most. Of course i didn't mind, but I thought my house rule put things more inline.)