Severe severing

[Minlister]

I would like to benefit form your (god)learned opinions on the matter of Humakti kings, like the Malani tribe's ones.

As far as I understand the humakti cult, the initiate undergoes the Severing rite, thus cutting his ties to former kin and becoming unable to ask for community magic. As such it seems to me a little bit weird that a Humakti could be king, that is the linchpin of kinship politics and the intermediary with clan's wyter. Is it based on the claimed of perfectly impartial justice, free of "nepotism"? But still it seems quite problematic!

A clack for your thought on the matter!

 

 

[Joerg]

46 minutes ago, Minlister said:

I would like to benefit form your (god)learned opinions on the matter of Humakti kings, like the Malani tribe's ones.

As far as I understand the humakti cult, the initiate undergoes the Severing rite, thus cutting his ties to former kin and becoming unable to ask for community magic. As such it seems to me a little bit weird that a Humakti could be king, that is the linchpin of kinship politics and the intermediary with clan's wyter. Is it based on the claimed of perfectly impartial justice, free of "nepotism"? But still it seems quite problematic!

A clack for your thought on the matter!

The Humakti does indeed sever his ties to kin upon initiation, but that doesn't meant that his former kin cannot adopt him back into the clan after that initiation. I understand that this is pretty standard procedure in clans with high portions of Humakti, like the Two Ridge or the Greydogs. Probably the Varmandi, too.

In case of the Lismelder, the Humakti are a necessary part of their life on the edge of the Upland Marsh. In case of the Varmandi and the Two Ridge Fort clans, the Humakti are part of the clan warband which is a lot larger than a normal (non-war) clan would support, and parts of which serve as mercenariy troops (not individually, but as a kin group). Typical postings are the Sartar royal bodyguard (opposite to the Telmori who form the other half of the royal bodyguard) or companions of tribal kings or high priests.

That's as much as you'll get for a single clack.

[Minlister]

Thanks O Mighty Living Index!

I understand how the Humakti can work inside a clan, it is just how they can relate to the "ruling" function that puzzles me. I understand the readoption, in a way it is the Resheathing, linked probably with the new compact between Humakt and Orlanth when the former became champion. It is just the capacity of someone who deliberately discarded kin ties to rule a kin-based group that troubles me. 

You drive a hard bargain. I will go up to three clacks. And a gold wheel.

 

[Runeblogger]

I don't know, but maybe the Malani had so many bad kings before that, that they now prefer humakti on their throne.

However, it must be still hard to have a king or queen who places Truth way before kin and community. 

[Christoph Kohring]

7 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

I don't know, but maybe the Malani had so many bad kings before that, that they now prefer humakti on their throne.

However, it must be still hard to have a king or queen who places Truth way before kin and community. 

Malan Mad-Blood is supposed to be the founder of the Malani tribe & he was a Humakti. For the Humakti the Truth Rune embodies honour more than truth per se.
 

Edited August 23, 2019 by Christoph Kohring

[Shiningbrow]

18 hours ago, Minlister said:

You drive a hard bargain. I will go up to three clacks. And a gold wheel.

Your bargaining skills need work!

[Shiningbrow]

Ummm, I know it's a.magical rite and all, but just because the Humakti severs his/her kin & clan ties doesn't mean the clan feels the same way. Given the magic, perhaps they should... But that would impose rather large consequences on this "Resheathing" ... One private ritual, and suddenly everyone around you loses all their feelings about you??? Hmmmm....

[PhilHibbs]

On 8/24/2019 at 5:14 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Ummm, I know it's a.magical rite and all, but just because the Humakti severs his/her kin & clan ties doesn't mean the clan feels the same way.

If you love somebody, set them free.

[Qizilbashwoman]

On 8/24/2019 at 12:14 AM, Shiningbrow said:

One private ritual, and suddenly everyone around you loses all their feelings about you??? Hmmmm....

If a wyter dies the community dissolves.

I don't think everyone loses their feelings instantly, but you forget the web of reciprocation that life is, especially for the clan. Think of the Orlanthi greeting ceremony!

In real life, too, those who become corrupt in power don't always do it just because they are greedy; in many places it's about feeding the demand to their family. A great leader must give extravagantly, even though that's not how an elected official works.

The Humakti ritual kills the net of obligation. The result isn't that your mother doesn't love you anymore, it's that you have no more obligation. Anywhere. Any new demand placed upon you must be accepted by you deliberately. And it's done magically, so the feelings that people have about inflicting obligation on you? Gone.

You're someone they remember feelings for! But they don't remember transactions.

This is why a Humakti ruler is absolutely capable of being less corrupt and more fair than a non-Humakti ruler.

Clan politics are great for lawless societies and really shit when you start to form states. That bridge is a classical problem in human thought. The web of responsibility between clan members keeps the community happy, healthy and alive, and absolutely ruins every real state with rules. see also: Sartar

Edited August 26, 2019 by Qizilbashwoman

[Kloster]

56 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

If you love somebody, set them free.

Humakti loves their children too!

[Joerg]

21 minutes ago, Kloster said:

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

If you love somebody, set them free.

Humakti loves their children too!

All these popular music references begin to Sting...

[MOB]

33 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Clan politics are great for lawless societies and really shit when you start to form states. That bridge is a classical problem in human thought. The web of responsibility between clan members keeps the community happy, healthy and alive, and absolutely ruins every real state with rules. see also: Sartar

This theme is explored in the final "making a tribe" stages of the King of Dragon Pass game.

[Minlister]

Thanks everybody for the input! And apologies for answering so late, my internet went done in my country house! I could finally catch up with readings!!

Yes, I also think that the ritual (Severing, Resheathing) does't impact human feeling, but legal rights. Even, if obviously, a man dedicated to the Death rune is probably not the jolliest fellow and will end up quite alone after a while. I was aware of examples of Humakti kings like Malan, just wondering how  it worked, but, yes, in a way, a Humakti king can be the incarnation of   the perfect king, above all parties. And stiff, virtuous leader leading their community towards catastrophe for the sake of purity, make for great stories. 

Even if I derail my own thread I would like to ask a couple other questions, quite unrelated.

First, one of my player would like to play a  trickster, which is fine by me, but I have no Orlanth initiate in the group. Can the trickster be bound only to an Orlanth initiate (or Vinga obviously) or to any initiate of an Orlanthi god?

Second, I am working on a heroquest, with the players entering the Sky world. I would like them to use Enjossi magic to leap the Skyfall, which is basically a huge waterfall. Do you know any publication exploring this possibility?

Third, do the giant ticks of Crimsie survive if they fall from the bat? Would it be conceivable that some of them haunt the Gejay Hill as a strange chaoticc pack after the bat landed near Runegate and created the Chaos Ground (GM pack, p. 37)

Fourth, what is the limit of kin-slaying? Let's say that my uncle was captured at Grizzli Peak, he went to live as a slave in Tarsh, but had a son. This son enters the Luanr army, I meet him on a battlefield and I kill him. Do I commit kin-slaying?

Finally, I attach the current state of the doc, if someone is interested, unfortunately, google translate will have to be your friend!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jqr6rm01ezd7sw1/Clan Lysang 25 VIII 19.pdf?dl=0

An a praxian episode, locusts and White Bull

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j2gsgjzh771p3e7/A les voir%2C on dirait des chevaux.pdf?dl=0

 

 

 

[Kloster]

23 minutes ago, Minlister said:

Fourth, what is the limit of kin-slaying? Let's say that my uncle was captured at Grizzli Peak, he went to live as a slave in Tarsh, but had a son. This son enters the Luanr army, I meet him on a battlefield and I kill him. Do I commit kin-slaying?

No, he is not part of your clan.

24 minutes ago, Minlister said:

Third, do the giant ticks of Crimsie survive if they fall from the bat? Would it be conceivable that some of them haunt the Gejay Hill as a strange chaoticc pack after the bat landed near Runegate and created the Chaos Ground (GM pack, p. 37)

Seems to me a good plot. I wish your player a good hunting.

[Minlister]

@Kloster

Thanks! Do you consider him not part of the clan because he hasn't been initiated by the clan? So blood ties are not sufficient? Do I get your point right? 

I may have to YGWV on that in order to keep one point of my campaign working (the Blood Weaver, p. 56-57), but thanks nonetheless for the intel!

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Minlister said:

@Kloster

Thanks! Do you consider him not part of the clan because he hasn't been initiated by the clan? So blood ties are not sufficient? Do I get your point right? 

Kin are those who will stand up for you before the law, and who will take you in in times of need. This stranger who happens to share your father's blood will do neither for you. Is he kin?

The case gets hairier when a sibling is married off to a different clan. While marriage moves the sibling from the birth clan to the marriage partner's affiliation, in case of a divorce that individual will revert back to the birth clan. But still, while the sibling is part of the other clan, and if your clan and that clan go heads to heads in a feud, slaying your sibling won't be kin-slaying.

3 hours ago, Minlister said:

First, one of my player would like to play a  trickster, which is fine by me, but I have no Orlanth initiate in the group. Can the trickster be bound only to an Orlanth initiate (or Vinga obviously) or to any initiate of an Orlanthi god?

Phil Hibbs's Trickster character had the Orlanth initiate as his sidekick. While this feels slightly munckinny to me, it would be an option.

Only Orlanth cultists have the mythical precedent to bond a trickster. Any other Orlanthi cult probably would be betrayed in no time short.

Possible solution: dual initiation of one of the other characters to Orlanth. If Londra of Londros (a Sword of Humakt, and associate priestess of Orlanth) can do it, why not a character in your group?

 

Enjossi leaping the Skyfall? That's quite a big bid for a mortal hero whose leaping feats were up the Stream river. The Creekstream River has no known cataracts between Duck Point and Nochet.

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Minlister said:

Thanks! Do you consider him not part of the clan because he hasn't been initiated by the clan? So blood ties are not sufficient? Do I get your point right? 

Joerg beat me on the run. See his answer above. He his (for me) right on spot.

[soltakss]

3 hours ago, Minlister said:

First, one of my player would like to play a  trickster, which is fine by me, but I have no Orlanth initiate in the group. Can the trickster be bound only to an Orlanth initiate (or Vinga obviously) or to any initiate of an Orlanthi god?

For me, anyone with authority can bind a Trickster, they just have to know how. Orlanth knows how, because of Orlanth. Waha knows how to keep the Trickster at bay, because of raven, he just uses Sun hawk to drive raven off. Yelm might know how to contain trickster, because he has powers of harmony. You just need some rationale or a myth as to how a deity controlled Trickster.

Of course, you could always have an unbound Trickster, as not all Tricksters are bound.

3 hours ago, Minlister said:

Second, I am working on a heroquest, with the players entering the Sky world. I would like them to use Enjossi magic to leap the Skyfall, which is basically a huge waterfall. Do you know any publication exploring this possibility?

I don't know of any publications. However, the Salmon Leap can be used to jump up small waterfalls, so a HeroQuest based on that should be possible. In my Glorantha, the Cult Secret of Waterfall Cults is that every Waterfall has a secret cave hidden behind it, including The Skyfall, so it might be possible to access the Secret cave in the Air behind the Skyfall, if your HeroQuest goes on a strange tangent.

3 hours ago, Minlister said:

Third, do the giant ticks of Crimsie survive if they fall from the bat? Would it be conceivable that some of them haunt the Gejay Hill as a strange chaoticc pack after the bat landed near Runegate and created the Chaos Ground (GM pack, p. 37)

Yes, they can survive, but they would need something big to latch on to in order to feed. In your Glorantha, why not?

 

3 hours ago, Minlister said:

Fourth, what is the limit of kin-slaying? Let's say that my uncle was captured at Grizzli Peak, he went to live as a slave in Tarsh, but had a son. This son enters the Luanr army, I meet him on a battlefield and I kill him. Do I commit kin-slaying?

Yes and no.

Kin Slaying is partly through blood and partly through clan membership. Technically you could be guilty of kinslaying, but you could argue that he belonged to a different clan and so was not technically kin. That's what Lawspeakers are for, they can interpret law in these odd situations. However, the Lunars could well accuse you of kinslaying, if they found out, just to cause trouble or to get you to do things for them.

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 hours ago, soltakss said:

Kin Slaying is partly through blood and partly through clan membership. Technically you could be guilty of kinslaying, but you could argue that he belonged to a different clan and so was not technically kin. That's what Lawspeakers are for, they can interpret law in these odd situations. However, the Lunars could well accuse you of kinslaying, if they found out, just to cause trouble or to get you to do things for them.

This grey area seems the most realistic for me. On a similar note, I would argue that if someone wound up in a feud with the clan of their sibling's in-laws, they could reasonably make a case for "recusing" themselves from going on raids and such. Different parties would then end up in an dilemma over whether loyalty to clan or respecting in-law relations would stand stronger - and these might be affected by additional factors, such as the social standing of the people in question, the cause of the feud, the severity, etc. etc.

If played realistically, stuff like this should end up messy pretty quickly, as the real world tends to do. But it obviously shouldn't get in the way of fun gaming.

[jajagappa]

On 8/30/2019 at 8:40 AM, Minlister said:

Can the trickster be bound only to an Orlanth initiate (or Vinga obviously) or to any initiate of an Orlanthi god?

I'd make it so as part of your game assuming you don't have an Orlanthi/Vingan. Come up with the story for it. Of course, there should be some catch as this will clearly not be as powerful as Orlanth's binding (which could still fail, too).

On 8/30/2019 at 8:40 AM, Minlister said:

Second, I am working on a heroquest, with the players entering the Sky world. I would like them to use Enjossi magic to leap the Skyfall, which is basically a huge waterfall. Do you know any publication exploring this possibility?

No, but sounds like a good idea for a quest. They should land somewhere in the Sky River.  And watch out for the savage Star Bears!

On 8/30/2019 at 8:40 AM, Minlister said:

Third, do the giant ticks of Crimsie survive if they fall from the bat? Would it be conceivable that some of them haunt the Gejay Hill as a strange chaoticc pack after the bat landed near Runegate and created the Chaos Ground (GM pack, p. 37)

Yes, they should be able to survive. And yes that sounds reasonable. Don't recall the timeframe of your game, but the bat landed in 1602, or likely Storm Bulls have scoured much of the area. I'd suggest that those surviving found new hosts - perhaps quakebeasts in the vicinity.

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Creekstream River has no known cataracts between Duck Point and Nochet.

It does - if you check out the map in the Guide p.252 you'll find a series of cataracts north of the Building Wall.

21 hours ago, soltakss said:

but they would need something big to latch on to in order to feed

Conveniently, there are quakebeasts that travel through this area!

 

[jajagappa]

On 8/30/2019 at 8:40 AM, Minlister said:

Second, I am working on a heroquest, with the players entering the Sky world. I would like them to use Enjossi magic to leap the Skyfall, which is basically a huge waterfall. Do you know any publication exploring this possibility?

Expanding on this idea:

We know Enjossi was able to bring salmon back to the Stream and that his magic works there. To go up the Skyfall with Enjossi's magic, though, you need the bring the salmon there. If the salmon can't reach Skyfall Lake, they cannot make the final leap. And that means this is a multi-part quest.

1) Meet Salmon Man at the divide between the River and the Stream and convince him to aid the Sky River.

2) Get through Delecti's Marsh. This is a big reason you don't find salmon in the Creek or the River anymore. Maybe you can convince the Ducks to help?

3) Pass the Dragonewt Wilds. Some cataracts here below Dendelle Lake. Will the dragonewts aid or oppose Salmon Man?  And there may be Tarshite bandits or Bearwalkers to fight off.

4) Go through Snakepipe Hollow and up Highwater Falls. Before you can get to the Skyfall, you need to pass the Giant's Table and Highwater Falls. I'm sure some giant(s) will be attracted to the magic of the quest. (Not to mention vile chaos - walktapus perhaps?)

5) Into Skyfall Lake. Last step before the great leap up. There are troll fishers here. They may be worried that this quest will plug the Sky hole and stop their fishing industry. You probably have to offer them the Leaping Falls magic too - promises of great riches from the Sky, etc.

6) The Great Leap. You're leaping into the Gods War here. It's not just getting up and through the hole. Korang the Slayer is here with his spear. You have to avoid that. If not, Salmon Man might be killed altogether (or even sent to the Void!). Very, very dangerous step - hope you got good dodging magic before you started the whole quest! Otherwise, you're climbing the Rain Ladder which alone would be a challenge.

7) Into the Sky River.  If you succeed, Salmon Man can leap from every river headwaters into the Sky and rejoin the Sky River!

Note: if you want an easier way into the Sky River, there are two alternatives:

1) Ride a River Horse. That will take you to the river's headwaters, e.g. Skyfall Lake. You still need to climb/leap into the Sky, but if you haven't brought Salmon Man this far, then Enjossi's magic will not work here (salmon cannot climb up the rain).

2) Follow the Boat Planet. Only after 1624, but you might bring Salmon Man to the port of Princess Starry-eyes and release him to climb the Sky River. Whole different quest though (and I'd still expect the savage Star Bears to try to catch any salmon making the attempt).

 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It does - if you check out the map in the Guide p.252 you'll find a series of cataracts north of the Building Wall.

You're right, in the Runnel River section that usually gets omitted in the text description (and obviously my memory).

 

Enjossi's clan pretty much occupies the niche of the bear, and Salmon knows this, and still follows Enjossi.

 

The Upland Marsh section of that quest should take place in the Underworld. Salmon enters a region of Death, and while he may un-die at the end of that passage, this part of the quest should be hellish, or Greater Darkness-evoking.

I am still uneasy about the sky leap for the salmon, based on Enjossi's feat. Perhaps there was an EWF variant of the salmon with draconic traits that could attempt such a feat?

Researching the local magic of Seapolis and the Grand Sea Exchange below the City of Wonders might be another way to enable Salmon to swim up the Skyfall. At the most extreme, one might try and extend the Fish Road from Nochet all the way to Skyfall Lake. (This would also create a nifty side-effect to deal with the upcoming ice-blocked flooding of the lowlands.)

A similar fish road approach could be tried up the Marzeel and through Styx Grotto, creating the first of possibly three Underworld/Greater Darkness sections (the third being Snake Pipe Hollow).
 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Perhaps there was an EWF variant of the salmon with draconic traits that could attempt such a feat?

Obviously Engizi/Lorion climbed into the Sky in the first place. Perhaps this part of the quest needs Blue Dragon magic?

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Obviously Engizi/Lorion climbed into the Sky in the first place. Perhaps this part of the quest needs Blue Dragon magic?

Sure, Lorion climbed into the Sky, from the lower edge (branching off Sramak's River), accompanied by the Blue Moon and aided by Heler, moving towards the Celestial Dragon which had already been bound in place if I recall the star lore correctly.

[Byll]

Maybe you could persuade Sea Eagle to carry you up. It might take a bit of trickstering to get out of your end of the bargain...