Lay members: What and where are they?

[MMan]

I'm about to start an RQG campaign which is heavily based on the HQ Eleven Lights campaign, although the clan in focus will be the Hiording clan of Colymar. My players suggested that they would like to start with a low level characters, as Glorantha is not that familiar to all of them. So we decided to start the game when characters are 16-17 years old, right after their adulthood initiation, and that they would seek and apply for cult initiation in game once we get the basics of the world and culture nailed down.

However, as I'm writing details of the Hiording clan, I've become lost with the meaning of lay members and initiates when it comes to cults.

First of all, on the RQG GM Screen Adventure Book, there are several NPC characters who seem to be quite "low level", but are still statted as cult initiates having access to rune magic:

• Heortarl (pg. 91) is 16 years old and an Initiate of Orlanth Adventurous with one rune magic spell.
• The herders Vargast and Jareena (pg. 92, 93), are a bit older but also Initiates having access to three rune magic spells each.

The HQ Coming of Storm book describes the number of initiates and devotees for all major cults in Red Cow clan. The Red Cow clan has some 830 adults in total (pg. 11), and of those 336 are initiates* of Ernalda (pg. 15). Assuming that half of the adults are women, and most women worship Ernalda, it supports the idea that all cult members are at least on initiate level.

 * Based on the numbers and terms, I assume that HQ Initiate == RQG Initiate, and HQ Devotee == RQG Rune Priest / Lord / God Talker.

All this implies that all people join their cult as initiate right after or during their adulthood initiation...

 

However, following quotes can be found in RQG core rule book:

• pg. 269 "Most who belong to a cult are lay members, without any authority or position within the cult. The way to join the hierarchy of a cult is to become an initiate."
• pg. 270: "Simple worshipers are called lay members. Lay members do not know the secrets of the religion, are excluded from key parts of worship, and do not gain access to the deity’s Rune magic. Lay members are casual worshipers or are children, and include anyone preparing to become an initiate. The inner members of the cult are the initiates and the Rune Masters—Rune Priests, God-talkers, and Rune Lords."

This would imply that most of the people are actually lay members, without access to rune magic, and that only much smaller subset of the people are initiates of a cult.

So... If 16 years old Heortarl is already an initiate of Orlanth, and almost all of the Red Cow's women are initiates of Ernalda, where and who are the lay members of the cults and why they seem not to be present at all in the RQG GM Screen Adventure Book and in Eleven Lights campaign?

Edited August 26, 2019 by MMan
corrected typos

[Joerg]

Short and dirty answer: Practically everybody in the clan who isn't initiated to Ernalda will be an associate initiate or a lay member of the Earth Queen. Ditto for Orlanth. The other gods have it a little harder if their area of expertise doesn't impact clan life on a similar level. The local river cult won't have as good lay worshiper turnout than the big two, for instance (not even with the swan women history of the Hiording clan).

[Qizilbashwoman]

A lay member is someone who pays 1 magic point at ceremonies, I think is the definition, lemme check: 

Quote

Simple worshipers of a cult are called lay members. Many cults have requirements to join as a lay member. These may be of race, birth, ability, money, or anything else. Lay members worship the deity of the cult, but are not privy to its secrets.

Becoming a Lay Member

Requirements generally are minimal, as the cult’s attachment to its lay member also will be minimal. Most typically, lay members need to sacrifice 1 magic point during a Worship ritual performed on cult holy days.

Benefits

Some cults offer mundane benefits to lay members such as room, board, free healing, and so on. Most benefits, however, are minimal.

Lay members may learn cult spirit magic from the temple, but they must typically pay for the privilege. The cost may vary from cult to cult but is typically the listed cost in the Spirit Magic chapter.

Many cults, but not all, offer training to lay members.

But most people don't bother to be lay members of anything but the largest cults, like Orlanth and Ernalda, unless your clan has a special attachment to a deity you personally aren't stanning but want to respect. Some Red Cow members, as a good example, would be lay members of Yinkin, their ancestor, while members of the Moon Winds faction who weren't actual members would be lay members of the Seven Mothers cult.

[Prinz Slasar]

To better understand your query I think it would be nice to know what you are consider as "Low Level RQG".

Low Level in terms of less rule subsystems [1] ?`Low Level in terms of less Cult knowledge [2] ? Low Level in terms of character might and power? [3]

[1] and [3] are easy to handle: Just start with Initiates without Rune Spells. Let the characters play a while and give them Rune Magic bit by bit, preferably through awesome ingame-situations instead of boring training. The characters and players are growing step by step.

[2] is no problem, either. To be honest, the cult information in RQG Core Rules is no more extensive than your average RPG in a given setting.

 

[MMan]

3 hours ago, prinz.slasar said:

To better understand your query I think it would be nice to know what you are consider as "Low Level RQG".

In this  case, low level means that the characters are not that experienced at the start of the campaign, as what the RAW would produce. Most importantly they are not yet Initiates of a cult. And that sparked my curiosity, as I couldn't find any NPC's that would not be at least initiate of a cult. Well, I guess my glorantha varies a bit in this case

[soltakss]

Lay Members are casual members of a cult. They have not been accepted into the cult properly.

For example the washerwomen of the Sun Dome temples might be Lay Members of Yelmalio, so they can enter the temple, but they won't be full members of the cult.

Lhankor Mhy only teaches cult members, so you pay to become a Lay Member to learn skills and so on.

[jajagappa]

23 minutes ago, MMan said:

as I couldn't find any NPC's that would not be at least initiate of a cult.

In an Orlanthi community, the men would likely be lay members of Ernalda, the women lay members of Orlanth. This would enrich the respective communal aspects of the ceremonies (e.g. men have their place in the Harvest ritual), but lay members could not enter the deeper mysteries (but might still guard the grounds, or sing and dance, etc.).

[Qizilbashwoman]

32 minutes ago, MMan said:

In this  case, low level means that the characters are not that experienced at the start of the campaign, as what the RAW would produce. Most importantly they are not yet Initiates of a cult. And that sparked my curiosity, as I couldn't find any NPC's that would not be at least initiate of a cult. Well, I guess my glorantha varies a bit in this case

Well you could withhold some xp, what in D&D people call a "level 0 campaign". If you ever played any Final Fantasy games, you are a Squire: you have some skills but you haven't committed yet. Once you get more experience, you then will actually initiate.

Your characters will be unusually youthful, in the period right after initiation into adulthood but right before actual cult initiation. They've not decided yet, or maybe a crisis has made their initiation be put off a hair, which is pretty unusual but possible. Unsettled times.

[creativehum]

6 hours ago, MMan said:

However, following quotes can be found in RQG core rule book:

• pg. 269 "Most who belong to a cult are lay members, without any authority or position within the cult. The way to join the hierarchy of a cult is to become an initiate."
• pg. 270: "Simple worshipers are called lay members. Lay members do not know the secrets of the religion, are excluded from key parts of worship, and do not gain access to the deity’s Rune magic. Lay members are casual worshipers or are children, and include anyone preparing to become an initiate. The inner members of the cult are the initiates and the Rune Masters—Rune Priests, God-talkers, and Rune Lords."

This would imply that most of the people are actually lay members, without access to rune magic, and that only much smaller subset of the people are initiates of a cult.

So... If 16 years old Heortarl is already an initiate of Orlanth, and almost all of the Red Cow's women are initiates of Ernalda, where and who are the lay members of the cults and why they seem not to be present at all in the RQG GM Screen Adventure Book and in Eleven Lights campaign?

I was asking about "initiates" last year. It still confuses me. Given the quotes and questions MMan posted above I'm still not seeing a clear answer to the matter in the posts that followed. The text in RQG suggests that being an initiate means having a position of authority within the cult. And further that most members of a cult do not have this authority and are lay members. And lay members do not posses Rune Magic.

And yet a a lot of the support material for Glornatha suggests many, if not most, NPCs are in fact initiates, and/or even if they are not initiates they still have Rune Magic. Or something.

If anyone has a clear way of squaring these details into a clear post I know I'd really appreciate it.

[g33k]

I think it's that "Initiation" has (at least) a couple of meanings.

First is the social, clan-based one.

If you have been "Initiated" into adulthood, you are now subject to the responsibilities thereof.  You are expected to answer a call to battle.  You are expected to begin "pulling your weight" in terms or work for the clan's well-being, in Sartar; or the House, in Esrolia; etc.  In many cultures, you may be called upon to make a political marriage, or otherwise marry for duty.

You also have certain new rights... Generally, you can conduct business in your own name.  Take service with a Noble, hire on with a merchant caravan, or as a field hand, etc etc etc.

You're an adult.  Many cultures mark that via an "Initiation" ritual.

But it doesn't imply anything about Cult/Religious "Initiation," which is a separate thing.

Edited August 26, 2019 by g33k

[Qizilbashwoman]

30 minutes ago, creativehum said:

I was asking about "initiates" last year. It still confuses me. Given the quotes and questions MMan posted above I'm still not seeing a clear answer to the matter in the posts that followed. The text in RQG suggests that being an initiate means having a position of authority within the cult. And further that most members of a cult do not have this authority and are lay members. And lay members do not posses Rune Magic.

And yet a a lot of the support material for Glornatha suggests many, if not most, NPCs are in fact initiates, and/or even if they are not initiates they still have Rune Magic. Or something.

If anyone has a clear way of squaring these details into a clear post I know I'd really appreciate it.

* Most Orlanthi women (outside Esrolia) initiate into Ernalda; a few initiate into other cults, like Vinga (female Orlanth) instead.

* Many Orlanthi men initiate into Orlanth; a few initiate into Storm Bull or other cults, like Barntar (Ernalda) instead.

These same individuals are also lay members of either Ernalda or Orlanth, respectively. Every Orlanthi has a god, whether it's Yinkin or Kero Fin or Maran Gor or Vinga or Ernalda or Storm Bull. But they may also be lay members of other gods. They're not exclusive!

In fact, if you follow Yinkin and aren't a lay follower of Orlanth/Vinga, it's pretty weird!

[Bill the barbarian]

28 minutes ago, creativehum said:

If anyone has a clear way of squaring these details into a clear post I know I'd really appreciate it.

Alas, creativehum, I have a feeling we will all be waiting a while for that. :(

With the history of Glorantha being so broad and deep and scattered across at least a dozen game platforms the task of untangling various rule systems and having them make sense to all players is beginning to resemble the creation of a master index on the green lozenge of all Lhankor Mhyan knowledge sequestered in their temple libraries. Or for that matter even in one temple only.

What G33k says works well for me.

[MMan]

8 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

* Most Orlanthi women (outside Esrolia) initiate into Ernalda; a few initiate into other cults, like Vinga (female Orlanth) instead.

* Many Orlanthi men initiate into Orlanth; a few initiate into Storm Bull or other cults, like Barntar (Ernalda) instead.

These same individuals are also lay members of either Ernalda or Orlanth, respectively.

I think the above clarifies the issue for me.

As a simplified example: A community has 150 members and three gods: Orlanth, Ernalda and Yinkin.

• Members 1-50 are initiated in Orlanth's cult, but they are also Lay Members of Ernalda and Yinkin.
• Members 51-100 are initiated to Ernalda's cult, but they are also Lay Members of Orlanth and Yinkin.
• Members 101-150 are initiated to Yinkin's cult, but they are also Lay Members of Orlanth and Ernalda.

Now in each cult there are 100 Lay Members and 50 initiates, but still all characters are Initiates in one of the cults.

 

I'm not sure if I'm a fan of everybody being initiates of some cult... I might run my Glorantha with around 10-20% of people of being initiates in any cult, and maybe 1-2% being Rune Priests / Lords... I'll have to think about it.

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 minutes ago, MMan said:

I'm not sure if I'm a fan of everybody being initiates of some cult... I might run my Glorantha with around 10-20% of people of being initiates in any cult, and maybe 1-2% being Rune Priests / Lords... I'll have to think about it.

that's the norm, where basically every adult is an initiate of someone. although it's more like 90%+ of men and women are Orlanth/Ernalda and the rest someone else (Issaries, White Goddess, Maran Gor, Yinkin, etc.). They don't necessarily have a lot of rune spells, either.

[MMan]

1 minute ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

They don't necessarily have a lot of rune spells, either.

That's a good and important point. Especially as it means that not all matured farmers, shepherds and thralls blast endless volleys of fire and brimstone when irritated, but are actually still quite close to lay members in terms of power level.

@Qizilbashwoman thanks for the great input

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 hours ago, MMan said:

That's a good and important point. Especially as it means that not all matured farmers, shepherds and thralls blast endless volleys of fire and brimstone when irritated, but are actually still quite close to lay members in terms of power level.

@Qizilbashwoman thanks for the great input

oh thanks! yeah and a lot of spells, if you notice, are extremely practical, not just war: an Orlanth initiate learns skills like herd, farm, orate and sing and can learn spells like Bladesharp but also Heal; Ernalda initiates learn animal and plant lores, farm, first aid, and dance and can learn Vigor and Second Sight (the latter is kind of useful in Glorantha).

These are all benefits your run-of-the-mill Kerofinelan wants their clan members to have. It'd be nice to have an Eirithian and an Odaylan in there, too, and a Helering wouldn't hurt.

[Shiningbrow]

6 hours ago, MMan said:

 

I'm not sure if I'm a fan of everybody being initiates of some cult... I might run my Glorantha with around 10-20% of people of being initiates in any cult, and maybe 1-2% being Rune Priests / Lords... I'll have to think about it.

In the Adventurers book, the Colymar tribe has about 12,300 members. Of those, only about 100 are higher than Initiate level...  below your 1-2%. 

Although I imagine many of the tribe will have the requisite skills (herd, farm, etc), I doubt most will sacrifice their POW on Rune Spells (but maybe add to a clan wyter).

Even if they do add to their RP store, they specifically have to choose which non-Common Rune Spells they want... For a herder, most likely Cloud Clear, Leap,  Increase/Decrease Wind. If they herd sheep, Voriof's Command Sheep... Absolutely no blasting happening!!!

Edited August 27, 2019 by Shiningbrow

[MMan]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

In the Adventurers book, the Colymar tribe has about 12,300 members. Of those, only about 100 are higher than Initiate level...  below your 1-2%.

@Shiningbrow I dropped my percentages without really thinking about it, but you're right, 2% of higher-than-initiates would be absurd  

After a night's sleep on top of this, I think the everybody-are-initiates who all have a couple of utility rune spells to help in their seasonal tasks, seems quite ok after all. Earlier I could only see the NPCs in terms of player characters.

[Akhôrahil]

I vaguely remember that you have to become a temporary lay member of Zola Fel to even be allowed to travel by boat there. In essence, it's a tax on travel. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I vaguely remember that you have to become a temporary lay member of Zola Fel to even be allowed to travel by boat there. In essence, it's a tax on travel. 

A god needs to stay a god and not a spirit somehow, don't diss the hustle

[Brootse]

I asked a similar question in the official rules thread:

But as you've noticed, all clanmembers with stats, the militia (ie. most of the men) included, are initiates of specific cults that grant Rune Magic. The way I've handled this is that I've followed the intentions the writers have posted on the forums here, and not what has been printed in adventure books.

[Lordabdul]

So yeah, good job from @Qizilbashwoman with the correct math between initiates and lay members.

As for 16 year old RQG characters, in addition to "Playing Inexperienced Adventurers" (p.25), which makes you skip some personal background and skill points, I would also decrease a few other stats to model the lack of several years of intense life experience (remember, default RQG characters have battle experience and stuff):

• Primary/second/third runes at 50%/30%/15% (so that you're just at the age where you can join a cult, with a 50%+ rune affinity)
• I might decrease occupation skill bonuses a bit, but maybe RAW are fine given that you probably learn the bulk of it between 10 and 17 years old?
• No cult or cult magic (since the point is to join a cult in game)

After that, I imagine that many adult initiates, having non-adventurous lives, don't level up as fast as PCs and so, when they're in their early twenties, they wouldn't be as strong as your default RQG character. They might only have 1 or 2 rune spells instead of the usual 3 for adventurers, for instance. Plus, getting additional Rune Magic points after the first one requires a full week of meditation and prayer at your deity's temple, something that the average farmer might not be able to do because they're so busy all the time...   their little free time might be already spent helping with Holy Days preparations, and performing rites to replenish whatever little magic points they spent for the occasional (couple times a season at most!) spell cast.

Having everybody be initiates

On 8/26/2019 at 5:58 AM, MMan said:

I'm about to start an RQG campaign which is heavily based on the HQ Eleven Lights campaign, although the clan in focus will be the Hiording clan of Colymar.

What was the reasoning for going with Hiording instead of the Red Cow?

[Akhôrahil]

9 minutes ago, Brootse said:

But as you've noticed, all clanmembers with stats, the militia (ie. most of the men) included, are initiates of specific cults that grant Rune Magic. The way I've handled this is that I've followed the intentions the writers have posted on the forums here, and not what has been printed in adventure books.

I was under the impression that Heortlings are unusual compared to most other cultures in that almost all adults are initiates? That is, you won't find this in most parts of the world, but for Heortlings, it's how things are supposed to be.

Edited August 27, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Brootse]

13 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I was under the impression that Heortlings are unusual compared to most other cultures in that almost all adults are initiates? That is, you won't find this in most parts of the world, but for Heortlings, it's how things are supposed to be.

Yeah, that would also solve it.

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Brootse said:

Yeah, that would also solve it.

I believe one of the ideas about Argrath is that he manages to tap into and organize this previously inefficiently used pool of magical capacity.