Allied spirits

[Luxus]

Some questions concerning runelords and priests and their allied spirits:

- When runelord or priest gains POW, can this POW be given to the allied spirit like shaman gives POW to his/her fetch?
- If not, can the allied spirit's POW increase on it's own, can it have POW experience checks etc. like player characters?
- What is the maximum POW for allied spirit? Allied spirits for priests have POW 3d6, so max would be 18 + 3 =21 ? Allied spirits for rune lords have POW 3d6+6, so would maximum POW be 3 + 24 = 27 ?
- How are the rune levels for allied spirits determined, just like they are determined for player characters?
- Allied spirits and rune lords/priests can "use each other’s magical abilities", but I guess they both cast spells from the other using their own POW (for spirit magic) and rune levels (for rune magic) ?
- Can the allied spirit cast the spells that runelod/priest knows, even if he/she is unconscious?
- In the adventure book, sample allied spirits have no rune levels or spells for some reason. Rules state that it can sacrifice for rune points and therefore learn rune spells, but I guess it can also learn spirit magic?

 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

25 minutes ago, Luxus said:

- When runelord or priest gains POW, can this POW be given to the allied spirit like shaman gives POW to his/her fetch?

Good question, I don’t know. Divine Intervention should be able to accomplish this though if the RAW do not. 

22 minutes ago, Luxus said:

- If not, can the allied spirit's POW increase on it's own, can it have POW experience checks etc. like player characters?

The critter is an initiate so I would imagine that in any way an animal or a staff, or a sword or whatever can, they act just like the real things because they are. They can participate and sacrifice in worship, have access to RPs and spells etc.

 

28 minutes ago, Luxus said:

- What is the maximum POW for allied spirit? Allied spirits for priests have POW 3d6, so max would be 18 + 3 =21 ? Allied spirits for rune lords have POW 3d6+6, so would maximum POW be 3 + 24 = 27 ?

28 the +6 counts as another dice for the minimum number so 4 in place of 3 added to max of 24 for 28

 

29 minutes ago, Luxus said:

- How are the rune levels for allied spirits determined, just like they are determined for player characters?

I am not sure this is covered perhaps in GaGoG when it comes out.

 

30 minutes ago, Luxus said:

- Allied spirits and rune lords/priests can "use each other’s magical abilities", but I guess they both cast spells from the other using their own POW (for spirit magic) and rune levels (for rune magic) ?

yes to  spirit magic
for rune levels do you mean rune points, if so this is just a guess so I could be in error, but it is late and i am tired so forgive moi. If they share the same cults for the RPS and spells I should think so, if one os initiated (probably the human) in a different cult I do not think these can be shared.

 

34 minutes ago, Luxus said:

- Can the allied spirit cast the spells that runelod/priest knows, even if he/she is unconscious?

Again I should thinks so, the unconscious one... not so much ')

36 minutes ago, Luxus said:

- In the adventure book, sample allied spirits have no rune levels or spells for some reason. Rules state that it can sacrifice for rune points and therefore learn rune spells, but I guess it can also learn spirit magic?

 

Again I am tired so I am not sure I understand, bear with me again. If I  understand you the spirit should be able to learn spells from any priest (probably for free) and I wonder if it would take the full week it would take a ihuman to learn a rune spell. Can not remember how long it takes to learn a spirit  spell but I wonder as well if the time would be required by a spirit.

Cheers

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Luxus said:

When runelord or priest gains POW, can this POW be given to the allied spirit like shaman gives POW to his/her fetch?

Under the rules, I don't think so. A Daka Fal worshipper with an ancestor as an allied spirit might be able to use Gift POW.

 

9 hours ago, Luxus said:

- If not, can the allied spirit's POW increase on it's own, can it have POW experience checks etc. like player characters?

That's how we played it in RQ2. 

9 hours ago, Luxus said:

- What is the maximum POW for allied spirit? Allied spirits for priests have POW 3d6, so max would be 18 + 3 =21 ? Allied spirits for rune lords have POW 3d6+6, so would maximum POW be 3 + 24 = 27 ?

In RQ2, a spirit had a 5% chance of a POW gain roll. However, I don't know if that has come across into RQG.

9 hours ago, Luxus said:

How are the rune levels for allied spirits determined, just like they are determined for player characters?

We played that an Allied Spirit with 18 POW could use sacrifice for reusable runemagic. RQG is slightly different, but POW 18 Spirits should be as Priests.

9 hours ago, Luxus said:

Allied spirits and rune lords/priests can "use each other’s magical abilities", but I guess they both cast spells from the other using their own POW (for spirit magic) and rune levels (for rune magic) ?

Yes.

However, I assume they can use each other's Rune Pool. I am not sure how fast a Rune Priest's Rune Pool regenerates if it has an ally, maybe the ally helps it regenerate faster.

9 hours ago, Luxus said:

Can the allied spirit cast the spells that runelod/priest knows, even if he/she is unconscious?

We played not. Which is why most Allied spirits had Healing 6, just in case.

 

9 hours ago, Luxus said:

In the adventure book, sample allied spirits have no rune levels or spells for some reason. Rules state that it can sacrifice for rune points and therefore learn rune spells, but I guess it can also learn spirit magic?

Yes, at least how we played it. An Allied spirit is essentially an extension of a Rune Level's INT, so the Rune Level can store spells in the Allied spirit, rather than it learning new spells.

[Austin]

9 hours ago, Luxus said:

- When runelord or priest gains POW, can this POW be given to the allied spirit like shaman gives POW to his/her fetch?
- If not, can the allied spirit's POW increase on it's own, can it have POW experience checks etc. like player characters?

Echoing Bill, the allied spirit can't gain POW from the Rune Master it's allied to, but AFAIK can get POW Gain rolls as normal (and improve its own skills as well over time--although this is more relevant for animate allied spirits rather than swords, staves, etc.). The shaman's fetch is a part of the shaman's self, whereas an allied spirit is a separate, connected entity.

10 minutes ago, soltakss said:

9 hours ago, Luxus said:

Allied spirits and rune lords/priests can "use each other’s magical abilities", but I guess they both cast spells from the other using their own POW (for spirit magic) and rune levels (for rune magic) ?

Yes.

However, I assume they can use each other's Rune Pool. I am not sure how fast a Rune Priest's Rune Pool regenerates if it has an ally, maybe the ally helps it regenerate faster.

My take is that the Rune Master and the allied spirit each have their own RP pool, limited by their CHA. They can use RP from each other's pool to cast spells, just as they can use one another's magic points to cast spirit magic (or sorcery, I suppose).

@Luxus, in older editions there was a Rune spell called Mindlink, which is basically the effect of an allied spirit. I never ended up using it myself, but finding out more about Mindlink might be useful for determining what an allied spirit can & can't do.

13 minutes ago, soltakss said:

An Allied spirit is essentially an extension of a Rune Level's INT, so the Rune Level can store spells in the Allied spirit, rather than it learning new spells.

CHA now .

9 hours ago, Luxus said:

- How are the rune levels for allied spirits determined, just like they are determined for player characters?

Typically when we're talking about "Rune levels," we're meaning adventurers who have become Rune Masters--Rune Priests, Rune Lords, Rune Lord-Priests (I don't believe this explicitly includes shamans, but most shamans serve as Rune Priests of their cults and gain all the benefits, so they're typically Rune Masters/Rune levels too).

My take is that an allied spirit is automatically an initiate. I would either give them a free Rune Point to start their pool--which represents the initiate connection--or let the player reduce their rolled POW by one or more to create that pool (this isn't presented in the text of RQG but I think it makes sense; the text is probably a hold-over from prior editions without Rune points). An allied spirit cannot become a Rune Master. I should note that no one has yet obtained an allied spirit in my game, so I haven't had experience playing with one myself.

9 hours ago, Luxus said:

- What is the maximum POW for allied spirit?

I agree with you and Bill on this, same as how species max would typically be calculated (so 21/28).

9 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

If I  understand you the spirit should be able to learn spells from any priest (probably for free) and I wonder if it would take the full week it would take a ihuman to learn a rune spell. Can not remember how long it takes to learn a spirit  spell but I wonder as well if the time would be required by a spirit.

A week for spirit magic, IIRC. I'd say so long as the temple doesn't complain, the Rune Master could teach their allied spirit any cult spirit magic for free. As a GM I'd also have an allied spirit start with some spirit magic, as appropriate for the being. So a bison allied spirit for a Khan of Waha might know Strength and Mobility already, a Sword of Humakt's spirit probably already knows Bladesharp, and a Trader Prince's shop spirit probably knows Glamour. But that's not substantiated in RAW; it just makes sense to me, since these are spirits which serve the god and have served for a long time.

[Luxus]

Thanks again for the replies!

51 minutes ago, soltakss said:

We played that an Allied Spirit with 18 POW could use sacrifice for reusable runemagic. RQG is slightly different, but POW 18 Spirits should be as Priests.

 

24 minutes ago, Crel said:

Typically when we're talking about "Rune levels," we're meaning adventurers who have become Rune Masters--Rune Priests, Rune Lords, Rune Lord-Priests (I don't believe this explicitly includes shamans, but most shamans serve as Rune Priests of their cults and gain all the benefits, so they're typically Rune Masters/Rune levels too).

My take is that an allied spirit is automatically an initiate. I would either give them a free Rune Point to start their pool--which represents the initiate connection--or let the player reduce their rolled POW by one or more to create that pool (this isn't presented in the text of RQG but I think it makes sense; the text is probably a hold-over from prior editions without Rune points). An allied spirit cannot become a Rune Master. I should note that no one has yet obtained an allied spirit in my game, so I haven't had experience playing with one myself.

Looks like I used a wrong term, what I meant was what is the level of the rune affinities (darkeness, water, etc. ) for the allied spirit? Should it be determined in the same manner as for new characters (elemental runes: primary rune 60% affinity, second 40%, third 20% & power/form runes: two runes at 75%) ???

[Pheres]

On 9/20/2019 at 8:56 AM, Luxus said:

When runelord or priest gains POW, can this POW be given to the allied spirit like shaman gives POW to his/her fetch?
- If not, can the allied spirit's POW increase on it's own, can it have POW experience checks etc. like player characters?

You can not give POW to your allied spirit when gaining it, it's your POW. But an allied spirit is a spirit, and you can give some POW to a spirit when ever you want... So in fact, yes you can give your allied spirit POW when gaining some...

About the second question, i am not sure. According from books it seems that a spirit can gain POW only when someone give some to him, but i am really not sure of that.

About an other point, if everybody can give some POW to a spirit a spirit can theorically have an infinity POW. The racial limitation to POW seems to be only for living creatures, not for spirit.

[PhilHibbs]

15 hours ago, Pheres said:

But an allied spirit is a spirit, and you can give some POW to a spirit when ever you want...

Really?

[Pheres]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Really?

Edit: I was sure to have read that you can sacrifice some POW to a spirit, but don't find the rule. So perhaps i have confund with the worship of a spirit when you give him spirit point...

Edited September 27, 2019 by Pheres

[Pheres]

What make me think that you can sacrifice POW to a spirit is:

p 365 of RQG, about negociation with a spirit

Quote

Many spirits are willing to temporarily aid mortals in exchange for worship or to otherwise further the spirit’s interests. To worship a spirit, at least 1 magic point needs be offered per point of POW the spirit possesses. Not all the sacrifice needs to come from the same person.

So you can sacrifice things to a spirit

In the Shaman chapter, when the apprentice meet a Greater Entity, who is a spirit:

Quote

the applicant sacrifices POW points to the Greater Entity as a demonstration of the applicant’s dedication and humility in the face of these great powers

The applicant is not a Shaman at this moment, but he can sacrifice POW to a spirit, so i think, that everyone can sacrifice POW to a spirit.

[Joerg]

58 minutes ago, Pheres said:

What make me think that you can sacrifice POW to a spirit is:

p 365 of RQG, about negociation with a spirit

So you can sacrifice things to a spirit

In the Shaman chapter, when the apprentice meet a Greater Entity, who is a spirit:

The applicant is not a Shaman at this moment, but he can sacrifice POW to a spirit, so i think, that everyone can sacrifice POW to a spirit.

This spirit is the object of a spirit cult, a completely different relationship than an allied spirit sent by a deity or a lesser spirit captured or bargained into a binding (enchantment or crystal).

Yes, you can sacrifice POW to the object of a cult, whether deity or spirit. RQG has a rule for wyter spirits (only) that allows 1:1 conversion of sacrificed POW into wyter POW (which then can be used to cast rune magic). An initiatory relationship is required (or established) for the transfer.

An ancestor worshiper worships the ancestors he or she can target with "Gift POW".

To me, this indicates that the POW transfer works upwards, towards entities receiving worship, but not horizontally or even downstairs.

 

Biturian Varosh's travelogue was written for RQ2, but RQ attempts to be quite true to those rules (at times too much, IMO). In the Sun Dome episode, Biturian's allied spirit achieves a successful Divine Intervention for its master, leaving it with three measly POW points, which the author bitterly complains about. If it could have been fixed with a few POW transfers, Biturian wouldn't have complained as much.

[PhilHibbs]

12 hours ago, Pheres said:

So you can sacrifice things to a spirit

More precisely, "So there are spirits that you can sacrifice things to". That's not the same as saying that you can sacrifice POW to any and all spirits including allied spirits.

[Bill the barbarian]

11 hours ago, Joerg said:

To me, this indicates that the POW transfer works upwards, towards entities receiving worship, but not horizontally or even downstairs.

 

There might be a way for it to go up and then down (for after all— that which goes up must come down, alright Bugs Bunny you come down here right now and quit make a fool of me*). I will reiterate a point I made before in my prior post. Divine Intervention a POW to the allied spirit, it would have to work.

Cheers

* no need t make a fool of me, I am miles ahead of you

Edited September 28, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Qizilbashwoman]

13 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

There might be a way for it to go up and then down (for after all— that which goes up must come down, alright Bugs Bunny you come down here right now and quit make a fool of me*). I will reiterate a point I made before in my prior post. Divine Intervention a POW to the allied spirit, it would have to work.

Cheers

* no need t make a fool of me, I am miles ahead of you

Isn't an allied spirit by definition your equal at best, though? It's essentially a kind of assigned servant, although I am not pleased with the "servile" root of that word. 

[Bill the barbarian]

2 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Isn't an allied spirit by definition your equal at best, though? It's essentially a kind of assigned servant, although I am not pleased with the "servile" root of that word. 

Sure, and why could one not call upon the gods and goddesses to intervene for an equal, who also serves the same god or goddess. I could DI an allied friend who did not serve my deity to a place of safety or back to life, and I could DI my own POW to increase. Well, why not DI a divine ally's POW?

Your note on servile makes me think that servant does not have to be rooted in “servile" but perhaps “service” which I believe would be a subtle difference.

Cheers.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Sure, and why could one not call upon the gods and goddesses to intervene for an equal, who also serves the same god or goddess. I could DI an allied friend who did not serve my deity to a place of safety or back to life, and I could DI my own POW to increase. Well, why not DI a divine ally's POW?

Your note on servile makes me think that servant does not have to be rooted in “servile" but perhaps “service” which I believe would be a subtle difference.

Cheers.

I think that even Rune Lord 1D10 DI has limits in its applications, otherwise your friendly neighborhood munchkin will roll up a Wind Lord or Sword of Humakt follower doing nothing but upping all the Munchkin's character's characteristics to 21 over the course of a few years.

Biturian apparently never considered praying for DI to push his allied spirit back into effective POW values.

[Bill the barbarian]

38 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Biturian apparently never considered praying for DI to push his allied spirit back into effective POW values.

Well that near citation is one point of datum more that we have provided yet, not conclusive but that does weigh toward me being an incorrect egregious munchkin. Any other opinions or even best of all, citations?

Edited September 28, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[olskool]

On 9/28/2019 at 2:55 PM, Bill the barbarian said:

Well that near citation is one point of datum more that we have provided yet, not conclusive but that does weigh toward me being an incorrect egregious munchkin. Any other opinions or even best of all, citations?

I had only two Allied Spirits in my campaign.  Ernie the Ferret and Barney the High Llama.  In my eyes, they were not "servants" to their Runelords!  They were there to guide, advise, and assist their Lords and to keep them "on the right path."  As full-fledged NPCs, they could regenerate POW and had significant "free will." 

Ernie (a Trickster spirit) liked "shinies" and talked like a New York cabby.  Since he didn't have pockets, he would "store his shinies" in Dedrie's (my player's RL character) pack.  This led to a few uncomfortable encounters for Dedrie.  He really ruffled the party mage (sorcerer) who had a standing threat to "make a pair of gloves out of [Ernie]."

Barney (an Orlanthi Rex spirit) was very polite and spoke with a British accent.  He was known for trying to talk sense into his somewhat reckless Runelord. 

I always wanted a Humakti Runelord with an Allied Spirit in his sword.  I'd use a Boston "Southy" accent and think it would be funny to see a warrior in a shouting match with his sword.  "Here I am in the worst place in the World and I have YOU to depend on.  What was The Almighty THINKING!"   I kind of like Marc from Zebra Corner on YouTube's attitude.

https://youtu.be/S0jTcGBxh6w              

[Goldennose]

On 9/20/2019 at 9:56 AM, Luxus said:

- In the adventure book, sample allied spirits have no rune levels or spells for some reason. Rules state that it can sacrifice for rune points and therefore learn rune spells, but I guess it can also learn spirit magic?

I guess an allied spirit has the same runes (and rune percentages) as it´s master (runelord/priest). An allied spirit uses its masters runes when casting Runespells of the master. I guess an allied spirit does not have a runepool of it own. Otherwise for example Leika´s Allied Spirit would have runespells of it own.

 

Edited February 19, 2020 by Caras

[Akhôrahil]

On 9/20/2019 at 6:16 PM, soltakss said:

In RQ2, a spirit had a 5% chance of a POW gain roll. However, I don't know if that has come across into RQG.

It has. It's one of the more obscure rules, but it's there. So this is how it should work for allied spirits.

[Akhôrahil]

On 9/20/2019 at 8:56 AM, Luxus said:

- When runelord or priest gains POW, can this POW be given to the allied spirit like shaman gives POW to his/her fetch?
- If not, can the allied spirit's POW increase on it's own, can it have POW experience checks etc. like player characters?

No (nothing in the rules about this). Unless there's a more general rule about it always being possible to sacrifice POW to spirits.

Yes, but only at a 5% chance (Bestiary, p. 164).

On 9/20/2019 at 8:56 AM, Luxus said:

- What is the maximum POW for allied spirit? Allied spirits for priests have POW 3d6, so max would be 18 + 3 =21 ? Allied spirits for rune lords have POW 3d6+6, so would maximum POW be 3 + 24 = 27 ?
- How are the rune levels for allied spirits determined, just like they are determined for player characters?

28 (as per the standard rules).

You mean percentages in Runes, or amount of Rune Points? No rules in the rulebook for either, but check out the Bestiary:

"All disembodied spirits are associated with the Spirit Rune.
Elementals are associated with their Elemental Rune. Many
spirits are associated with an Elemental or Power Rune.
Many spirits have another Form Rune as well. Those spirits
that have been tainted by Chaos have the Chaos Rune."

"Rune Magic
The spirit possesses 1D6 or more Rune points tied to one
of its Runes."

On 9/20/2019 at 8:56 AM, Luxus said:

- Allied spirits and rune lords/priests can "use each other’s magical abilities", but I guess they both cast spells from the other using their own POW (for spirit magic) and rune levels (for rune magic) ?

Yes, no reason to think otherwise.

On 9/20/2019 at 8:56 AM, Luxus said:

- Can the allied spirit cast the spells that runelod/priest knows, even if he/she is unconscious?

Yes. Or when away on spirit travel.

On 9/20/2019 at 8:56 AM, Luxus said:

- In the adventure book, sample allied spirits have no rune levels or spells for some reason. Rules state that it can sacrifice for rune points and therefore learn rune spells, but I guess it can also learn spirit magic?

Presumably an error. And they can most definitely learn spirit magic.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

On 9/20/2019 at 6:16 PM, soltakss said:

However, I assume they can use each other's Rune Pool. I am not sure how fast a Rune Priest's Rune Pool regenerates if it has an ally, maybe the ally helps it regenerate faster.

The allied spirit is an initiate and should be able to regain rune points by regular Worship. I don't think the PCs Rune Point regenerate faster, but the Allied Spirit serves as a recharageable battery.

This is actually a big deal!

[scott-martin]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is actually a big deal!

You have blown my mind. My current suspicion is now that the allied spirit is the theistic counterpart of the fetch, activating parallel routes to magical power in a framework the priests can usually tolerate. Great stuff!!

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

You have blown my mind. My current suspicion is now that the allied spirit is the theistic counterpart of the fetch, activating parallel routes to magical power in a framework the priests can usually tolerate. Great stuff!!

It definitely is. I have sometimes been surprised with how small the step between God-talker and full Priest is otherwise, but the Allied Spirit really does make a huge difference.

Even more so if you can feed it POW, the way you can to a Fetch, which it can then turn into Rune Points, which basically improves your Rune Point total. And even allows casting of larger spells than would otherwise even be possible.

Edited February 19, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Kloster]

1 minute ago, Akhôrahil said:

It definitely is. I have sometimes been surprised with how small the step between God-talker and full Priest is, but the Allied Spirit really does make a huge difference.

Perfectly right. The question is now: If you are a Rune Priest and have an allied spirit, do you lose it if you request to be demoted to God-Talker status?

[Austin]

4 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Perfectly right. The question is now: If you are a Rune Priest and have an allied spirit, do you lose it if you request to be demoted to God-Talker status?

I think it depends. Become a God-talker to go live out your twilight years at your nephew's stead? Probably not. Become a God-talker because you're doing exciting adventurer things which will keep you from your 90% time duties? I'd let you keep it.