Peaceful cut and Food song

[Manu]

In RQ2 and RQG, Peaceful cut is a skill.

In RQ2, food song is a spell.

They are very similar (one for animals, the other one for plants). Then why a skill for one and a spell for the other?

[Ian Absentia]

I reckon it's an issue of the bargain established with the particular deities in charge.  I've always interpreted Peaceful Cut as a ceremonial skill, very similar to kashrut slaughter.  It doesn't require an expenditure of spiritual power to perform, but it does have a spiritual significance and effect, perhaps more to the corporeal entities involved than the gods on high.  Food Song on the other hand...I guess Aldrya demands a little more investment for the return; perhaps it's a more direct negotiation with her as a goddess.

!i!

Edited September 29, 2019 by Ian Absentia

[Bill the barbarian]

32 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

I reckon it's an issue of the bargain established with the particular deities in charge.  I've always interpreted Peaceful Cut as a ceremonial skill, very similar to kashrut slaughter.  It doesn't require an expenditure of spiritual power to perform, but it does have a spiritual significance and effect, perhaps more to the corporeal entities involved than the gods on high.  Food Song on the other hand...I guess Aldrya demands a little more investment for the return; perhaps it's a more direct negotiation with her as a goddess.

 

Sounds about right to me. I would add that in my realms the elves are more attached to the magical worlds than the middle world. Perhaps it is because their influence wains in the middle world but remains as dominant as ever in the green age.

Cheers

Edited September 29, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Qizilbashwoman]

9 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Sounds about right to me. I would add that in my realms the elves are more attached to the magical worlds than the middle world. Perhaps it is because their influence wains in the middle world but remains as dominant as ever in the green age.

Cheers

peaceful cut is an archaism from after the golden age. the entekosiad discusses a story about how in that time, the male tribe would reassemble the bones of their prey and they'd leap back up into the air again while the female tribe would bear the prey as young.

this no longer worked when death and life had been distinguished. when humans realised what death was and they were living off of murder now, they kind of freaked out.

a new ritual was created - different in each area - according to the orders the first god-talkers (proto-shamans) taught from the spirits.

the peaceful cut is one of these rituals. it lets the hunter respect the game and ensure it passes into the divine mother Eiritha to be reborn. it's actually kind of close to a repurposing of the practice from the Green Age above, except humans and divinities have been divided.

 

 

[Bill the barbarian]

On 9/29/2019 at 2:56 PM, Qizilbashwoman said:

the peaceful cut is one of these rituals. it lets the hunter respect the game and ensure it passes into the divine mother Eiritha to be reborn. it's actually kind of close to a repurposing of the practice from the Green Age above, except humans and divinities have been divided.

 

Yeah, that sounds like it puts flesh on the bones that I had provided in my first post. Nice to see that going off my head seems to have correspondence with the written. That is, while humans are a little more powerful in the mortal world (since the freakout you describe), and uses ritual to return to the golden age.  Aldryami while not as potent in the middle world stills feels like, looks like and evokes in it's (the aldryami hive) every action the green age and thus magic is the correct response to their reality (more magic, easier magic via more POW and magic bows, giving —a very real and tangible magic as long as the central tree remains well. In the broken more mundane word of the lozenge we crawl through we need to interact in a more muddy down to earth kinda way.

And in the end,  I realize the this simplification ignores the magical realities of humans to make my point. Yes everything (skills passions rituals, worship) are also magic on the lozenge. Perhaps the aldyami practice a higher magic and the humans practices a more mundane variety... no that’s not it either. I will have to leave that for another day.

Cheers

Edited October 1, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[Bill the barbarian]

10 hours ago, Manu said:

They are very similar (one for animals, the other one for plants). Then why a skill for one and a spell for the other?

Thanks for the thread, Manu.

[olskool]

While I understood that it was a "ritual" in RQ2, I also used it to determine if a hide was successfully "skinned"  without damaging it (for use in making stuff) and to determine just how much "meat" (for food) and how much fat (for lard and Alchemy) was rendered from a kill.  I also used this as a skill check to harvest intact organs (for Alchemy) or body fluids (like the poison from a Manticore stinger).  I guess this was just the hunter and farmer in me (I grew up on a farm).    

[Brootse]

6 hours ago, olskool said:

While I understood that it was a "ritual" in RQ2, I also used it to determine if a hide was successfully "skinned"  without damaging it (for use in making stuff) and to determine just how much "meat" (for food) and how much fat (for lard and Alchemy) was rendered from a kill.  I also used this as a skill check to harvest intact organs (for Alchemy) or body fluids (like the poison from a Manticore stinger).  I guess this was just the hunter and farmer in me (I grew up on a farm).    

In RQ2 it was a skill, in RQ3 it was a spell used together with Craft(Butcher), and now it is a skill again. It being a skill instead of a spell is a bit silly, since if a foreign master butcher wanted to join a cult that uses Peaceful cut, he has to start from scratch even if he knows all the possible ways to skin and cut an animal with his Craft(Butcher) 100% skill.

[Ian Absentia]

16 minutes ago, Brootse said:

In RQ2 it was a skill, in RQ3 it was a spell used together with Craft(Butcher)...

Dang, there it is, in the Gods of Glorantha entry for Waha the Butcher (which is where I found the description of Food Song, since it was omitted from the Gloranthan Bestiary write-up for Aldrya).  I was looking for it in the main RQ3 rulebook earlier.  Overall, I agree that it pairs better as the "red" complement to the "green" Food Song, and that Slaughter/Butchery be treated as the skill element of the ceremony.

!i!

[Bill the barbarian]

10 minutes ago, Brootse said:

In RQ2 it was a skill, in RQ3 it was a spell used together with Craft(Butcher), and now it is a skill again. It being a skill instead of a spell is a bit silly, since if a foreign master butcher wanted to join a cult that uses Peaceful cut, he has to start from scratch even if he knows all the possible ways to skin and cut an animal with his Craft(Butcher) 100% skill.

One would think the a foreign expert would not be welcomed in to a community upon his word as to his skill and the his avowing that he is revered for it back home, In fact, would he be welcomed at all?

Mind you a tolerant community (up to the GM to determine the chance for this) or one in need (same deal) , or simply just a cosmopolitan place, well he would still have to be tested before being given the keys to the abattoir. Simple enough, though not necessarily inexpensive, certainly not free. Have the expert do his ritual and craft if applicable, if the herd beast returns to the spirit herd (divination under some circumstances shaman using his skills and understandings of such matters in others to determine success) his skills, though strange,  still work. 

In case of prejudice to fear, or just chuckleheads,  well all bets are off

Cheers

[Ian Absentia]

Oh, hrm.  I just noticed the Bloody Cut skill for Tusk Riders in the Gloranthan Bestiary, clearly intended as the inverse of the Peaceful Cut.  Clearly described as a skill, typically paired with the Rune spell Death Binding.  It's a physical torture skill, basically, but presumably ceremonial in nature as we were speculating above, but still not inately magical.  If it were a spirit magic spell like Food Song and (RQ3) Peaceful Cut, I reckon it would make sense to similarly pair it with Slaughter/Butchery.

!I!

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Brootse said:

In RQ2 it was a skill, in RQ3 it was a spell used together with Craft(Butcher), and now it is a skill again. It being a skill instead of a spell is a bit silly, since if a foreign master butcher wanted to join a cult that uses Peaceful cut, he has to start from scratch even if he knows all the possible ways to skin and cut an animal with his Craft(Butcher) 100% skill.

Learning a different way to do something that you have a very high skill in can be very difficult.

Flip it around, should he be able to learn everything he needs to know in a week?

[Jeff]

On 9/29/2019 at 1:10 PM, Manu said:

In RQ2 and RQG, Peaceful cut is a skill.

In RQ2, food song is a spell.

They are very similar (one for animals, the other one for plants). Then why a skill for one and a spell for the other?

Peaceful Cut is a skill - it is proper and respectful butchery of an animal. Waha is known as a god of butchery not just among the Praxians, but throughout Orlanthi Belt, Peloria, Pent, and even Fronela and Ralios. The cult is the source of a skill called the Peaceful Cut. This is a skill which lets the sacrificed herd beast die peacefully and without fear, and also includes butchering the creature properly, without wastage. This skill is taught to all Lay Members free upon their acceptance into the cult. 

The God Learners discovered that even people who never had any contact with the Praxians practiced a variation of the Peaceful Cut - showing that the Butcher had more cosmic significance than merely being the ancestor of the Animal Nomads.

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, Brootse said:

In RQ2 it was a skill, in RQ3 it was a spell used together with Craft(Butcher), and now it is a skill again. It being a skill instead of a spell is a bit silly, since if a foreign master butcher wanted to join a cult that uses Peaceful cut, he has to start from scratch even if he knows all the possible ways to skin and cut an animal with his Craft(Butcher) 100% skill.

That's similar to switching from 1H-Axe to 1H-Hammer. A problem of inflexible application of the rules. Although an Ikadz cultist with Craft(Butcher) 100% probably should restart from zero...

[Joerg]

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

The God Learners discovered that even people who never had any contact with the Praxians practiced a variation of the Peaceful Cut - showing that the Butcher had more cosmic significance than merely being the ancestor of the Animal Nomads.

It is something that the Butcher and the Hunter share (there are various hunting techniques that deliver the prey alive, though not necessarily unhurt).

The God Learner explanation probably makes Waha an avatar of the primal butcher, taking the original practice on himself. Not dissimilar from Orlanth taking over most of Umath's domain.

(Further discussion of this probably belongs into the Glorantha part of the forum...)

[Brootse]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Peaceful Cut is a skill - it is proper and respectful butchery of an animal. Waha is known as a god of butchery not just among the Praxians, but throughout Orlanthi Belt, Peloria, Pent, and even Fronela and Ralios. The cult is the source of a skill called the Peaceful Cut. This is a skill which lets the sacrificed herd beast die peacefully and without fear, and also includes butchering the creature properly, without wastage. This skill is taught to all Lay Members free upon their acceptance into the cult. 

The God Learners discovered that even people who never had any contact with the Praxians practiced a variation of the Peaceful Cut - showing that the Butcher had more cosmic significance than merely being the ancestor of the Animal Nomads.

Check.

[Brootse]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

That's similar to switching from 1H-Axe to 1H-Hammer. A problem of inflexible application of the rules. Although an Ikadz cultist with Craft(Butcher) 100% probably should restart from zero...

In my homebrewed rules you get a bonus from your higher weapon skills to your lower ones. Imo it would be quite silly if a master axeman's hammer skill was just 10% + bonus.

[scott-martin]

On 9/29/2019 at 4:05 PM, Ian Absentia said:

Food Song on the other hand

You got me thinking that chow or "food" is the central mystery of Aldrya consciousness at least, so they all "sacrifice" for Food Song and it works like a simple ritual. Some eat food. Some make food. They all sing. For all I know some of them sing constantly, stopping only to sleep.

The pivot from spell to skill is probably part of what differentiates us from them in the forest, at least potentially. Adult human adventurers rely more on their skills, which are a factor of lived experience in the world. As your society gets complicated (further from the forest) people become more specialized and maybe "butcher" becomes a job like "farmer" or "cook," where you can be better or worse than someone else. In Prax all responsible people learn how to kill a herd beast responsibly.

Most of the forest children interact with the magical ecology differently. It's interesting to rethink the character sheet for a green game.

Ironically making is expressed as skills so that's dwarves right there. Their highest skills converge with "sorcery."

[Bill the barbarian]

25 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

You got me thinking that chow or "food" is the central mystery of Aldrya consciousness at least, so they all "sacrifice" for Food Song and it works like a simple ritual. Some eat food. Some make food. They all sing. For all I know some of them sing constantly, stopping only to sleep.

Pure magic, that, innit?

 

25 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

The pivot from spell to skill is probably part of what differentiates us from them in the forest, at least potentially. Adult human adventurers rely more on their skills, which are a factor of lived experience in the world. As your society gets complicated (further from the forest) people become more specialized and maybe "butcher" becomes a job like "farmer" or "cook," where you can be better or worse than someone else. In Prax all responsible people learn how to kill a herd beast responsibly.

nice

 

26 minutes ago, scott-martin said:

Ironically making is expressed as skills so that's dwarves right there. Their highest skills converge with "sorcery."

bingo, that’s what I was missing in my tale... the antipode of growing. 

Cheers

[Akhôrahil]

On 9/30/2019 at 2:15 PM, Joerg said:

Although an Ikadz cultist with Craft(Butcher) 100% probably should restart from zero...

Might give him a bonus to Bloody Cut if he joins the Tusk Riders...

Edited October 1, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Qizilbashwoman]

16 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Might give him a bonus to Bloody Cut if he joins the Tusk Riders...

Not sure about how much, Ikadz is a torturer while the Bloody Cut folk are just Darkness butchers, even if your "technique" is a giant cleaver that whacks off someone's head in one blow.

I'd give a bonus for skills with large chopping weapons myself. 

[Akhôrahil]

4 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Not sure about how much, Ikadz is a torturer while the Bloody Cut folk are just Darkness butchers, even if your "technique" is a giant cleaver that whacks off someone's head in one blow.

I'd give a bonus for skills with large chopping weapons myself. 

The Tusk Riders like their torture, is what I meant.

[soltakss]

On 9/29/2019 at 12:10 PM, Manu said:

In RQ2 and RQG, Peaceful cut is a skill.

In RQ2, food song is a spell.

They are very similar (one for animals, the other one for plants). Then why a skill for one and a spell for the other?

The Peaceful Cut became Craft (Butchery) in RQ3. 

I treat is as a Butchery skill and a Spirit Magic spell, to keep it in line with Food Song. However, I do understand and like the idea that correctly butchering an animal sends its soul back to whatever source it came from. 

[Brootse]

So who are the people who don't practice Peaceful Cut? Do trolls practice it with herded bugs or captured intelligent species?

Edited October 4, 2019 by Brootse

[Qizilbashwoman]

3 hours ago, Brootse said:

So who are the people who don't practice Peaceful Cut? Do trolls practice it with herded bugs or captured intelligent species?

... everyone who doesn't learn it from their god. Wahans and Eirithans learned Peaceful Cut skills in earlier editions, but it was (acceptably) different between them. But an Orlanthi doesn't learn the peaceful cut. Maybe some hunting gods teach a Peaceful Cut skill, but it wouldn't be Waha's.

It's a specific magical way to ensure the game spirit ends up reborn.

The Bloody Cut is a parody: it binds a soul forever to the Ivory Plinth and its weird god. That's why people hate Tuskers! If you get killed by their rite you don't go to the spirit world, you get locked into a demon's cage in the Stinking Forest forever.