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My campaign, currently about to move in to 1626, is headed towards Pavis in the nearish future. As GM, I need to decide just what Pavis is like these days before we get there. Yes, I know, YGMV, but I'd like to be at least vaguely consistent with what Chaosium comes up with when something finally gets published. What I am very unclear on is just what officially happens to Pavis when the Lunars are overthrown. KOS says that all Lunar soldiers are killed, and the city is sacked by Praxian barbarians. What happens to the considerable Lunar civilian population, and the even more considerable number of locals who prefer Lunar occupation to Praxian, according to the old published materials? Are they too all killed? Does something get worked out by Argrath so that they're all just fine? Something in between I assume, but I'd like to have at least a vague unspecific idea of what, and of course what Argrath's role is in all that. When my party gets to Pavis, do they see a happy bustling liberated town, or piles of rotting corpses, or what?

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I am not sure about the official Chaosium line, we'll have to wait for a new Pavis book for that.

My guess is that some Lunars will be killed, especially military and rulers. Some will flee down the Zola Fel to Corflu and travel to the Holy Country, some will flee up the Zola Fel and try getting to Sartar and back to the Lunar Empire, some will just hope for the best and hope that refugees aren't slaughtered and some will flee into the Big Rubble and hide. Certainly, Gim Gim flees into the Big Rubble, as he comes back to fight Argrath.

The Praxians probably hate the Pavisites more than they do the Lunars, due to long-held grudges. Storm Bulls might hate the Lunars more, though. In any case, I can see some Lunars paying Newtlings to transport them hidden in boats.

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I'm hoping we can at least get some vague hints as to what the official Chaosium line will be, so that I don't have to revise everything if a new Pavis book comes out, or go off on my own tangent, which I'd rather not do. Jeff, are you listening?

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2 hours ago, Glorion said:

I'm hoping we can at least get some vague hints as to what the official Chaosium line will be, so that I don't have to revise everything if a new Pavis book comes out, or go off on my own tangent, which I'd rather not do. Jeff, are you listening?

Did you have a chance to watch the video from the Kraken with Jeff and Robin talking about the Pavis/Big Rubble books? Provides some insights and thoughts.

 

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19 hours ago, Glorion said:

I do now. Thanks!

Watching the video was not as helpful as I would have liked, as it was basically all about the Big Rubble, not Pavis. What little was said about Pavis made it sound like you had a bunch of exceedingly oppressive Praxian barbarians, wolf pirates and Argrath fans "oppressing and looting" the population, after "everyone with a bad name" had been horribly killed, and you have a highly incompetent new regime who have no idea how to run the city properly, and really don't care. What I get out of that is thinking that the actual Pavisites are now looking back at Lunar rule as a lost golden age, with former Lunar civilians now pretending to be loyal to Argrath and eagerly awaiting the day he and his barbarians leave, at which point the Lunar underground will lead them and the actual Pavisites in a popular rebellion that will sweep anything related to Argrath or the Praxians out of the city. Sound about right?

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5 minutes ago, Glorion said:

What little was said about Pavis made it sound like you had a bunch of exceedingly oppressive Praxian barbarians, wolf pirates and Argrath fans "oppressing and looting" the population, after "everyone with a bad name" had been horribly killed, and you have a highly incompetent new regime who have no idea how to run the city properly, and really don't care. 

Yep. So, put that in context with:

Glorantha Sourcebook p.39: "In Prax, Argrath White Bull and Jaldon Toothmaker raised a huge nomad army and, after brushing aside the Lunar army at Moonbroth, marched upon the city of Pavis. The imperial soldiers refused to surrender, so the walls were broken by ancient magic. The Lunars were all put to the sword, and Argrath was acclaimed King of Pavis."

King of Sartar p.16: "Argrath and Jaldon led them to Pavis. Ten thousand nomads surrounded the city. The Lunar defenders fought hard, and levied such terrible losses that the only survivors among the assailants were heroes that day. But the few successful warriors had planted the seeds of defeat upon the wall, and the next day the eating things had cracked a segment in the north wall so that it nearly all fell to dust... Argrath led the attack through the breach, and Orgwaha Blue Llama summoned twenty special spirits to guard the hero. The Lunar Army had sworn to fight to the death, but Argrath and his men cut their way through to the Temple of Pavis. The ancient god rose from his grave and greeted Argrath, and so the surviving Lunar soldiers lost heart, and surrendered. Argrath entered Pavis. When he and his companions entered the gates they were set upon by assassins. The murderers failed, and Argrath captured Jimgrim, a demon of murder and poison. Jimgrim attempted to make an offer for his life, as was common, but Argrath did not hesitate and cut his head off before he finished a sentence."

In one case, you have Lunar soldiers put to the sword, in the other many are cut down but many surrender. But this is Pavis - you don't have prisons, so what do you do with captives? You sell them as slaves (or you ransom them - but not easy to collect; or you kill them). There's an illustration in one of the books (which I can't find at the moment) of one of the former Lunar leaders being sold at Pimper's Block.

The aftermath is likely this: known Lunars killed or sold into slavery; Argrath camped in Pavis with his army of nomads, wolf pirates and others. Residents wanting Argrath to do something about the looting, so he sends adventurers off into the Big Rubble to do their looting (as long as he gets his share). 

22 minutes ago, Glorion said:

the actual Pavisites are now looking back at Lunar rule as a lost golden age, with former Lunar civilians now pretending to be loyal to Argrath and eagerly awaiting the day he and his barbarians leave, at which point the Lunar underground will lead them and the actual Pavisites in a popular rebellion that will sweep anything related to Argrath or the Praxians out of the city. Sound about right?

Some will definitely see Lunar rule as a golden age.  When Argrath and his allies leave, then it's wide open again!

That's basically what we know at this point.

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21 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Some will definitely see Lunar rule as a golden age.

There is certainly something to be said about the Lunar Way: the practices of the basic faith are conducive to life in a civilised society, with the assumption of judges, law, literacy, and cities. The Orlanthi way is "pre-civilised" in the literal sense: it assumes no authority, no state, illiteracy, and rural life, with practices like wereyield (gini), and any kings or queens are glorified warlords.

The Praxian herdfolk are even worse.

It's hard to run a city like Pavis with a "pre-civilised" collection of faiths, and the Lunar Way had the support of the Empire and its supply lines, settlers, and military outposts.

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Jajagappa: That's helpful, and I did read KOS. But what I'm not clear on is what about the quite significant Lunar population. And the Praxians hate everything about Pavis and now are in charge, and it also says in KOS it stays at one point that they sacked the city. For those unfamiliar with the Thirty Years War and such, "sacking" a city means an episode, generally a few days long, when soldiers take everything they want, burn or otherwise destroy anything they don't want which they find amusing, and do whatever they find amusing with the population, which always includes rape and murder, and usually means wiping out a significant fraction of the civilian population. Is that what happened, do you think? When my adventurers hit Pavis, if they hear about that they won't like it. A soft hearted bunch I suppose. They may not be too thrilled about Argrath becoming King of Sartar, which could be interesting. (One player who looked at some of the Glorantha websites has already said he has real doubts about this Argrath character).

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Prax c.1610-1621 was always "my Glorantha".  By way of comparison (and we all know how well that works out with Glorantha), I'm far more inclined to play in the Levant under Roman rule than, say, Afghani ethnic cleansing under the Taliban.  YGMV.

!i!

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I'm afraid my "soft hearted" Vingan will insist that Argrath track down and punish much of the garrison.  If not, she will.  We're not big on rape.

Argrath is unlikely to get us to join him.  Maybe I'll track down Vasana and curse her out too for failing her cult obligations.

Edited by Rodney Dangerduck
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2 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Prax c.1610-1621 was always "my Glorantha".  By way of comparison (and we all know how well that works out with Glorantha), I'm far more inclined to play in the Levant under Roman rule than, say, Afghani ethnic cleansing under the Taliban.  YGMV.

 

Oh I concur, though having one possible future as what can happen looming like a wolf pirate ship in the foggy uncertain tomorrow works to my benefit as well. It is nice to know where the cradle will fall, so to speak...

Hell, I am definitely interested in knowing what is to come but yes, the council of the  daughters of pavis with Fleeter Nemm arguing points of order with the occupying lunars, the trollkin night watch the Runyonesque denizens of Loud Lilina’s and The Temple, err Gimpy’s as the kid’s are calling it now. Speaking of kids the wily rascally fun loving street urchins in their cute little gangs and their wild crazy civilized ways! 

Yep, gotcha! 

Pavisite one: And What have the bloody lunars ever done for us?

Pavisite Two: Well the aqueducts...

Pavisite Three: And the baths, remember what the place used to smell like?

Etc...

Fade to aliens...

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2 hours ago, Glorion said:

Jajagappa: That's helpful, and I did read KOS. But what I'm not clear on is what about the quite significant Lunar population. And the Praxians hate everything about Pavis and now are in charge, and it also says in KOS it stays at one point that they sacked the city. For those unfamiliar with the Thirty Years War and such, "sacking" a city means an episode, generally a few days long, when soldiers take everything they want, burn or otherwise destroy anything they don't want which they find amusing, and do whatever they find amusing with the population, which always includes rape and murder, and usually means wiping out a significant fraction of the civilian population. Is that what happened, do you think? When my adventurers hit Pavis, if they hear about that they won't like it. A soft hearted bunch I suppose. They may not be too thrilled about Argrath becoming King of Sartar, which could be interesting. (One player who looked at some of the Glorantha websites has already said he has real doubts about this Argrath character).

I think, and that is just my own opinion, rape would be much less prevalent in a world with an actual present deity that abhor it and have a very, very dedicated daughter ...

Babs may not have time to find every last perp, but what she does to those she get is probably well known ... and I think people would look funny at everyone that just plainly refues to enter an Ernaldan temple  ever again (I mean would you even take the chance that the Goddess have gotten a whiff of your transgression?).

For those who don't care or are incapable of connect the dots ... well ... there is always Thed, and we know what that leads to ... I hope they like the smell of goats.

And most of the motley gang of the White Bull follows gods that have honor somewhere in the curriculum making repeated murder of defenseless less fun the next high holy day., 

So a sack is probably not the same as the horrors of the thirty years war, certainly violence, deaths and plunder, but less torture and rape, less of murder a orgy ...

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2 hours ago, Glorion said:

(One player who looked at some of the Glorantha websites has already said he has real doubts about this Argrath character)

FWIW every time I read an Argrath thread, it reinforces my personal opinion that he's actually just a Trickster who dumbasses his way to ever-greater success.

I started my RQG campaign in Sea 1625, right after the fall of Pavis, with the players as members of the White Bull Horde or otherwise affiliated. I wrote up a little bit of prose to summarize, and definitely got a bit of player shock at the violence involved. For My Glorantha, there was a lot of murderin'. As I saw it, pretty much anyone who initiated to the Seven Mothers, at a minimum. Mass executions in the square, blood flowing down the streets for weeks. Almost French Revolution in hindsight, with the celebration of slaughtering Lunars.

And then I juxtaposed that with a NPC Trickster in Argrath's employ pulling a Monty Python bit on them.

Ultimately, my players seemed more interested in the Rubble-diving stuff than being "we're big bad Argrathi!" so I used the tension between Belvani & Vega Goldbreath, and the continued extermination of Lunar centers of power at Raus Fort and Corflu as background info for what's going on in broader Prax over the next few seasons (after Argrath's failed assault on New Lunar Temple in Fire season, of course).

@Glorion, if you're in Pavis in early 1626, here's sort of the way I'm playing it in my game (we've just hit the end of Sea 1626): Pavis & Prax are in a state of uneasy quiet. The Lunars are gone, and a lot of the good things have gone with them. Notably trade, which has especially hurt Corflu (one of my players runs an Issaries merchant, and has started helping by establishing an Issaries shrine & market in the port town), and though there's some trade from Adari/Dagori Inkarth and Sartar, that whole area's also sort of holding its breath and waiting for Pharandros's hammer to fall during this summer's campaigning season. Argrath was going to march on Sartar, but after his failed attack on NLT (and Kallyr's success with the Dragonrise), I sort of have him "playing" at king in Pavis. He doesn't really want to rule Pavis, but there's a new Prince of Sartar and it'd be counter-productive to instigate a civil war by asserting his claim while his army's still a bit tattery.

I've generally not focused on the day-to-day stuff (so a lot of the grit and grimy detail presented in the old RQ2 Pavis material--gangs, miscreants, bully soldiers, etc.--doesn't come up in my game), but in general I have Pavis's state as struggling, but not sinking. A lot of the population was slain after Argrath's conquest, but a lot of the population also wasn't. After all, a good portion was Sartarite, and although the White Bulls weren't merciful to Orlanthi "traitors" who worked with the Lunars, they also weren't really interested in killing other folks. As that vid notes, there'll be a power vacuum when Argrath's folks leave Pavis, but at the moment they've pretty cleanly filled the place the Lunars occupied.

TL,DR: I figure the basic mood is "Sure was nice of good ol' King Argrath to kill those snooty Lunars and cut taxes in half, but I do sort of wish he'd take all his smelly Praxian nomads and go out noming a bit, y'know?"

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1 hour ago, Crel said:

FWIW every time I read an Argrath thread, it reinforces my personal opinion that he's actually just a Trickster who dumbasses his way to ever-greater success.

I started my RQG campaign in Sea 1625, right after the fall of Pavis, with the players as members of the White Bull Horde or otherwise affiliated. I wrote up a little bit of prose to summarize, and definitely got a bit of player shock at the violence involved. For My Glorantha, there was a lot of murderin'. As I saw it, pretty much anyone who initiated to the Seven Mothers, at a minimum. Mass executions in the square, blood flowing down the streets for weeks. Almost French Revolution in hindsight, with the celebration of slaughtering Lunars.

And then I juxtaposed that with a NPC Trickster in Argrath's employ pulling a Monty Python bit on them.

Ultimately, my players seemed more interested in the Rubble-diving stuff than being "we're big bad Argrathi!" so I used the tension between Belvani & Vega Goldbreath, and the continued extermination of Lunar centers of power at Raus Fort and Corflu as background info for what's going on in broader Prax over the next few seasons (after Argrath's failed assault on New Lunar Temple in Fire season, of course).

@Glorion, if you're in Pavis in early 1626, here's sort of the way I'm playing it in my game (we've just hit the end of Sea 1626): Pavis & Prax are in a state of uneasy quiet. The Lunars are gone, and a lot of the good things have gone with them. Notably trade, which has especially hurt Corflu (one of my players runs an Issaries merchant, and has started helping by establishing an Issaries shrine & market in the port town), and though there's some trade from Adari/Dagori Inkarth and Sartar, that whole area's also sort of holding its breath and waiting for Pharandros's hammer to fall during this summer's campaigning season. Argrath was going to march on Sartar, but after his failed attack on NLT (and Kallyr's success with the Dragonrise), I sort of have him "playing" at king in Pavis. He doesn't really want to rule Pavis, but there's a new Prince of Sartar and it'd be counter-productive to instigate a civil war by asserting his claim while his army's still a bit tattery.

I've generally not focused on the day-to-day stuff (so a lot of the grit and grimy detail presented in the old RQ2 Pavis material--gangs, miscreants, bully soldiers, etc.--doesn't come up in my game), but in general I have Pavis's state as struggling, but not sinking. A lot of the population was slain after Argrath's conquest, but a lot of the population also wasn't. After all, a good portion was Sartarite, and although the White Bulls weren't merciful to Orlanthi "traitors" who worked with the Lunars, they also weren't really interested in killing other folks. As that vid notes, there'll be a power vacuum when Argrath's folks leave Pavis, but at the moment they've pretty cleanly filled the place the Lunars occupied.

TL,DR: I figure the basic mood is "Sure was nice of good ol' King Argrath to kill those snooty Lunars and cut taxes in half, but I do sort of wish he'd take all his smelly Praxian nomads and go out noming a bit, y'know?"

A thing worth keeping mind - the Lunar rule of Pavis became far more oppressive in 1622 after Sor-eel was forced out and a new governor (Halcyon var Enkorth, a creature of the Provincial Overseer) arrives. Sor-eel genuinely liked many of the barbarian peoples, whereas Halcyon views his job as little more than an opportunity to squeeze out a fortune. As the Lunar situation gets worse in Dragon Pass, the regime in Pavis gets far more tyrannical.

As another side, everyone and their dog loves to quote Life of Brian about "What did the Romans do for us? Aquaducts, etc.". Well in Pavis that is not the case. The Lunars didn't bring better government than Dorasar and his family. The Lunars weren't builders - that's Pavis and Flintnail. The Golden Age of New Pavis was during the good rule of Dorasar and the City Council. When Pavis was a sister city of Sartar, but not caught up in the wars with the Empire. The decline began with the fall of Boldhome but really ended in 1610 with the Lunar conquest. 

By 1625, the Golden Age has been over for a generation. And Pavis is thoroughly entangled in the wars between Sartar and the Empire, and about to get even more so. The Praxians now dominate Prax, but Pavis and Pavis County are protected by the White Bull. But Argrath is a warlord and a mystic adventurer - he's got his priorities and governing Pavis is not very high on that list. 

A final observation - I doubt there was much rape when Argrath took the city. Much of his army was Storm Bull cultists, who hold rape to be a Chaotic act.

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16 minutes ago, Jeff said:

A thing worth keeping mind - the Lunar rule of Pavis became far more oppressive in 1622 after Sor-eel was forced out and a new governor (Halcyon var Enkorth, a creature of the Provincial Overseer) arrives. Sor-eel genuinely liked many of the barbarian peoples, whereas Halcyon views his job as little more than an opportunity to squeeze out a fortune. As the Lunar situation gets worse in Dragon Pass, the regime in Pavis gets far more tyrannical.

I think part of the challenge, then, is that for many folks around here the primary experience of pre-RQG Pavis is with Sor-Eel running the show, not Halcyon. I'm more distant from the canon than a lot of RuneQuest players, but a sort of semi-benevolent despotism is the image of Lunar Pavis which was in my mind from skimming Big Rubble & Pavis a while back when I started my game. Not good rulership, not compassionate, but far, far better than things were seventy-odd miles west.

I got much the same image from my more thorough read of Borderlands & Beyond from Duke Raus; didn't want to be here, didn't like the people and surroundings, but overall wasn't that bad a bloke.

From my perspective, I feel like historically a lot of the Pavis/Prax background has the Lunars as culturally antagonistic, but not automatically villainous.

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8 minutes ago, Crel said:

I think part of the challenge, then, is that for many folks around here the primary experience of pre-RQG Pavis is with Sor-Eel running the show, not Halcyon. I'm more distant from the canon than a lot of RuneQuest players, but a sort of semi-benevolent despotism is the image of Lunar Pavis which was in my mind from skimming Big Rubble & Pavis a while back when I started my game. Not good rulership, not compassionate, but far, far better than things were seventy-odd miles west.

I got much the same image from my more thorough read of Borderlands & Beyond from Duke Raus; didn't want to be here, didn't like the people and surroundings, but overall wasn't that bad a bloke.

From my perspective, I feel like historically a lot of the Pavis/Prax background has the Lunars as culturally antagonistic, but not automatically villainous.

They aren't necessarily villainous. They are imperial overlords. Sometimes you get somebody decent (like Sor-eel), sometimes you get somebody motivated by avarice and ambition (like Halcyon). Think of Halcyon as a Gaius Verres type. But this is always the fate of conquered territories - to be at the mercy of their overlords.

Neither the Lunars nor the Sartarites are the "good guys" - and neither are they the "bad guys". Your take on their actions is going to depend on where you stand. Both have admirable qualities, both have their negative qualities. Pavis was very lucky to be ruled by a member of one of the most prestigious and important families in the Lunar Empire for over a decade. Sor-eel didn't need to make his family's fortune or name with this appointment. He's a blood relative of the Red Emperor, and his kinswoman is the incarnation of the Red Goddess on earth. He could afford to be liberal and benevolent, except when it came to things that really mattered (like the Cradle).

But when Fazzur was toppled due to internal politics, so fell Sor-eel. The governor for Pavis was more the sort of person who gets that sort of backwaters post - someone of minor family who views this post as the opportunity of a lifetime (the other archetype is the important person appointed there after a life of screwups). As the Lunar position in Dragon Pass came under challenge, long-term Provincial interest in Pavis was one of the first things to go.

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Probably it is true that the Storm Bulls in Argrath's entourage did not approve of rape, being from the Sartarite Orlanth/Ernalda culture where it is a major no no. But the way I read KOS, it was basically Jaldon and his Praxian barbarians, who had no such compunctions, who were the ones who really took Pavis, and they hated Pavisites longer and a lot more than they hated Lunars. (Whether Praxian Storm Bulls share Sartarite values as to rape is an interesting question. They are to a considerable degree based on Native American cultures, which are indeed very much down on rape). Plus a contingent of Harrek's berserkers, just back from pillaging the City of Wonders. Argrath may not have approved of massive destruction, rape and killing, but I doubt had the ability, whether or not he had the inclination, to stop it. And what I did get out of the Kraken video, from what little was said about New Pavis, was that Argrath's rule in Pavis was a lot worse than Sor-eel's, and not necessarily any better than Halcyon's. If anything worse, as Halcyon at least had some vague notion of how to run a city, and saw it as his job.

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5 hours ago, Glorion said:

Whether Praxian Storm Bulls share Sartarite values as to rape is an interesting question.

I'm sure they do. Rape transforms rapists into broo. Broo = Chaos. And even if it's not visible, the act may register to their Sense Chaos.

Nor will the Earth approve, and that includes Eiritha. Whether through direct curses or Babeester Gor Axe Maidens, they, too, will seek out offenders.

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10 hours ago, Glorion said:

But what I'm not clear on is what about the quite significant Lunar population.

There's really not a "significant" Lunar population. There's the army regiments. There's some bureaucracy around the Lunar administrator. There's scribes and some Etyries merchants. There's the Patroma family and some kin.

Then the Lunars have transplanted settlers from Talastar (who are Orlanthi), the Redlands (Sun worshipers who will find more kinship with the Sun Dome Temple), and some from Carmania.

Remember that there are only 3500 people in Pavis ~1618. And the whole River of Cradles has ~30k farmers as of that time. There were some indigenous farmers plus the Sun Dome farmers, and then the majority migrated from Sartar.  How many Lunar settlers actually arrived? 1000? And most of those went to the Grantlands such as Raus' domain. I don't think you'd find more than 150-200 in Pavis, and those are probably dependents, servants, and clients of the Patroma. 

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There are three regular Lunar units stationed in Pavis, the Marble Phalanx, the Silver Shields, and Sitzmag's contingent of Antelope Lancers. About 2000 people paid by the Imperial army, including regimental scibes, smiths, saddlers. There is also a contingent of the Lunar Wagoners stationed in Pavis, with repair facilities, rested beasts of burden, and administration. I haven't seen any of the garrisons or military camps on a map of Pavis. They don't appear to be inside New Pavis, except for those on guard duty, so I suppose they are somewhere outside in the fields when not on more detached duty up and down the River (as per p.45 of Pavis&Big Rubble),

I would expect the Lunar Empire population in and around New Pavis other than full members of the regiments in 1621 to be about 800, and about 3000 in the Grantlands plus Corflu. Raus alone must have several hundred settlers by 1621 (the Borderlands campaign ends in 1618 or so). Other recipients of grants will have two or three hundred folk at their places, working on construction and first harvests when the Windstop strikes. There are quite a few camp followers to account for - peddlers, repair service, entertainment, cooking. Many of those in the employ of Imperial bureaucrats.

At a guess, about a quarter and possibly more of the adventurers combing the Rubble are from the Lunar Empire. In many cases, that may mean Tarsh or Saird, and not necessarily Lunar by cult, but also Carmanians and Dara Happans. Half the Knowledge temple is used by Irrippi Ontor (and by extension Buserian) scholars - and the congregation will include quite a few scribes from the regiments and the civic administration. Possibly even Jotoran Longsword.

Sor-eel and his servants have 50 elite guards. When Sor-eel gets recalled in 1621, many of those servants and probably this personal guard complement will follow - after all, the Eel-Ariash are still a major player in the Empire, and they won't feel any obligation to let Sor-eel's successor profit from their efforts. I wonder what kind of replacement a Halcyon var Enkorth can field - certainly less impressive.

Does Halcyon arrive before the Windstop, during it, or after the Battle of Aurochs Hills? How is his relationship to Jotoran?

True, a fair number of the Imperials wouldn't be Lunar cultists - but then, neither is Jotoran Longsword. At least not explicitely (no stats or cult affiliation is given, he is a Dara Happan from Mirin's Cross (i.e. a Sylilan, or a Dara Happan bureaucratic family relocated there). At a guess, Lay member only, or Buserian initiate.

Jotoran is the poster character for the dark side of the empire - disdainful to the barbarians (i.e. everybody in Pavis except for a few exceptions, none of those native). And probably skimming off a fortune by manipulating the food distribution records.

 

The Windstop does halt the development of the Grantlands, and possibly destroys a couple of grantsteads. Those that manage to survive probably applaud the Orlanthi victory at Aurochs Hills.

The Hazia trade will collapse during the Windstop. Families who had become wealthy from the privilege as suppliers for the Lunar College now have to face bankruptcy as they hasten to buy up the remaining stock, diluting it, etc. to fulfill their annual quotas. Given the additional demand during the Full Moon Year in the Heartlands, the situation will be crazy.

Adventurers might pack up and leave for greener pastures during the Windstop, and some of the mercenary regiments of Pavis might, too. Especially if their performance during the Cradle incident lowered their pay.

 

Assuming that Halcyon takes control in Earth Season 1622, he will have a city full of starved Grantland-bound settlers who consumed all their seedstock, draft animals, and who probably have sold some of their family members or captives from rival groups into debt slavery. Raus Fort may have survived fairly well, depending on the results of 1618 to 1621, and might be as well (or bad) off as the Garhounds or the Sun Domers in between.

Praxian pasture might even emerge slightly boosted from the end of the Windstop. Ernalda's fertility was extremely reduced already to begin with, most of the fertility came from Eiritha, who had not died/lost her magic, but who was subdued by the forces of winter.

Pavis falls in 1624, and despite the Lunar victory at Moonbroth, the city is not re-taken before the new Lunar Temple is finished. This leaves just two years for Halcyon to line his pockets. (If you want a Roman parallel for Halcyon, I would point to Varus - a man about whose governorship in Palestine was written that he arrived in the rich province as a poor man and that he left the poor province as a rich man.) I suppose that Halcyon's major priority will be to rebuild the Hazia trade, and that the Grantlands (outside of Raus domain) might be the place where debt slaves could produce the stuff. The back route via Corflu might be a problem, though, as Halcyon has less control over that port than he has over Pavis.

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Surely there is some "baseline, normal" amount of horror and mayhem when a Gloranthan city is captured.  Maybe less than on Earth.

My question, and I think Glorion's, is whether Argrath encouraged, or allowed, an unusually high degree of violence in Pavis?  Did he try to stop it within hours, or did he "turn the city over for sacking" for days?  I don't have any of the source materials Glorion is quoting so not sure if he is interpreting them correctly or not.  And he's the GM, so our Glorantha May Vary.

Our party has two female PCs (all played by men) who have certainly seen violence, and are "used to" the normal stuff, yes, war is hell.  But both have cult or character background reasons to abhor violence against women.  And we have a male Storm Bull.  If we learn that Argrath was culpable in allowing higher than usual Broo-like violence, well, that's an issue.  (and could provide interesting game plot developments).  If it was relatively "normal level of violence", my character could accept what happened.

Given that Vasana, a fellow Vingan, had no issues with following Argrath, seems like Jeff ruled that nothing too horrible happened.

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1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

My question, and I think Glorion's, is whether Argrath encouraged, or allowed, an unusually high degree of violence in Pavis?  Did he try to stop it within hours, or did he "turn the city over for sacking" for days?  I don't have any of the source materials Glorion is quoting so not sure if he is interpreting them correctly or not.  And he's the GM, so our Glorantha May Vary.

The only other reference regarding timeframe is the "Argrath of Pavis" section in KoS. 

"Then they opened the gates, signaled from the ramparts, and the nomads came in. They had been waiting, because they had learned of this in a dream. None of Argrath’s people were harmed by the invaders, although some seemed to escape only by chance, some required force of arms, and some needed all the wit they had. After the nomads had plundered for two days and passed out drunk, Argrath negotiated peace with the chiefs of the invaders and they left. Then Argrath and his ring organized the city. He revealed his bloodline to the people, who accepted him as their chief."

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Joerg: Glad for the number computation. If you have 800 Lunar civilians in the New Pavis area, that is a significant segment of the population. How many would actually be in New Pavis? My impression from the old Pavis pak was quite a few, maybe 400 or so? Most of whom are not initiates of anything, being as only some 10% of the population are initiates in Glorantha in general, so not necessarily executed on the spot if they pledge allegiance to Argrath and renounce Lunar ways. But then you have those two days of sacking by Praxian barbarians until Argrath gets them to go off and get their butts stomped at Moonbroth, who probably if anything find abusing, looting and killing Pavisites more entertaining than killing Lunars. Be it noted that according to the RQG book, and mine is an RQG campaign, Pavis falls to Jaldon and Argrath in 1625 not 1624, and Vasana etc. are there for that. I'm still waiting to hear more, but at this point I'm going to assume that you have a disaffected but thoroughly intimidated population, and a Lunar underground based somewhere in the Big Rubble which, after the sacking, has a fair amount of popularity among the Pavisites and among the allegedly now loyal ex Lunars, patiently waiting for Argrath and his army to leave so they can go back to being Lunars. With Gimgim having been executed, said Lunar underground is probably led by less repulsive sorts, and is probably internally divided as to how to orient to all that "unhealed chaos" in the rubble... With Jaldon dead again, the Praxians in Argrath's army in Pavis now are probably more willing to listen when Argrath tells them to behave themselves, but they still don't care for Pavisites.

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