Pavis!

[Hteph]

On 11/20/2019 at 4:40 PM, Akhôrahil said:

It is more than a little odd that the universe has a coherent line on what is and isn't rape (and that this line is pretty narrow). Stuff like raptus, marital rape and sexual use of slaves in ways that we most definitely would classify as rape in the modern world surely goes on in Glorantha all the time, without it seemingly "counting" as rape as far as divine retribution is concerned.

The way it seems to work is that rape is chaotic to the extent that it messes with the social structure. Meanwhile, it seems like a large chunk of the storm gods committed raptus, and surely a large part of male slaveholders have used their slaves for sex, without it being chaotic or leading to divine vengeance. This leads me to think that rape in war would at least be seen as less of an issue among some peoples - it's what you do, and it's not a threat to the social structure.

Example: I'm sure downright turn-into-a-broo, divine-retribution-incoming rape is rare among Storm Bulls - they know it's chaotic and not the Done Thing. But harassing and bullying that poor serving maid or servant until she's too scared to say no? That's Tuesday Waterday.

Absolutely, there is a disturbing tendency  amongst Orlanthi of "Might makes Right"  that is chafe a bit, and that is why Ernalda and Lankhor Mhy is essential to elevate the unruly Storm God  from a petty Warlord to the actually king of the Tribe.

There is a (non-canonical?) story somehwere about Orlanth and Thed going along the lines that he is unable to punish Ragnaglar for raping her as his brother is a mamber of his tribe and Thed is not. But he is willing to allow her a boon to compensate for the crime against her.

There is a lot to read from that story and others have discussed it better than I'm able to.....

[Akhôrahil]

22 minutes ago, Hteph said:

Absolutely, there is a disturbing tendency  amongst Orlanthi of "Might makes Right"  that is chafe a bit, and that is why Ernalda and Lankhor Mhy is essential to elevate the unruly Storm God  from a petty Warlord to the actually king of the Tribe.

Agree - the Storm Gods each need to have something that makes him not just fucking horrible. Humakt learned honour. Orlanth is remarkably mellow for a son of Umath (courtesy of Ernalda, mostly). Storm Bull is bad to have around but is a chaos-killer. And Vadrus and Ragnaglar were just fucking horrible.

[Qizilbashwoman]

59 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Agree - the Storm Gods each need to have something that makes him not just fucking horrible. Humakt learned honour. Orlanth is remarkably mellow for a son of Umath (courtesy of Ernalda, mostly). Storm Bull is bad to have around but is a chaos-killer. And Vadrus and Ragnaglar were just fucking horrible.

Orlanth was supposed to be the outreached hand, the open mind.

His Initiation was the Prison of Enemy Gods, and only his ability to befriend these aliens with foreign needs and thoughts enabled them all to escape. That's what makes him Rex.

[soltakss]

On 11/19/2019 at 7:13 PM, Jeff said:

This isn't a sanitized thing - Greg and I both agree that in our fantasy world with a sky dome, flat earth, and manifest gods that rape is rare. The existence of goddesses like Babeester Gor and Gorgorma are there to emphasise the point.

Their very existence means that rape is part of Gloranthan Mythos.

Gorgorma grants a spell, Second Mouth that is explicitly a way to deter, or punish rapists, and gives it to all the Earth tribe Goddesses.

Babeester Gori hunt down rapists and cut off their genitals, hanging them around their necks or off their axes.

Orlanth abducted and raped several goddesses, as did Vadrus.

Ragnaglar is the Mad God, the Rapist, with his attack on Thed being a turning point, as it forced Orlanth to side with his brother rather than giving Thed Justice, which made her join the Unholy Conspiracy.

Gunda the Guilty is the product of the rape of a Valkyrie by a Philosopher.

So, rape is definitely a part of Glorantha.

 

[Bill the barbarian]

8 hours ago, soltakss said:

So, rape is definitely a part of Glorantha.

 

Alas... and in honesty if only we were arguing how to get this horrible act out of the real world instead of a fictional one where it belongs behind veils and doors and definitely at the behest of x-cards (or what ever you prefer) at  least and within ours... never. 

Edited November 23, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[g33k]

In my Glorantha:  During the sack of Pavis, there was a reasonably high number of drunk soldiers assaulting the female citizenry to rape them; something like half the number you'd expect, during a RealWorld sack of a city, because many of 'em knew better, even drunk.

Because y'know what?  There was a metric crapton of berzerk Uroxi in town, and every time some asshole tried that shit, a bunch of "Sense Chaos" lit up nearby, and they dropped their other amusements and went off to make their objections known in that special way the Uroxi have...

And Babsy-G ... Yeah, the Axe Maidens know the risks of war and a city-sack, and when Eiritha nudged her sister in warning, I'm sure she sent some extra "deterrents" along.

And Eiritha herself, lotsa rune-priestesses and shamans who were probably planning all along to do a sharp pivot from "take the city" to "prevent atrocities."

Glorantha is not Earth.  A patrol of soldiers drunk on both stolen liquor and heady victory, stumbling into a hide-out full of women?  In the real-world, that sounds like a dire risk of a tragedy.  In Glorantha, they have a reasonable guess that someone might have a spirit running overwatch, and it's on THEIR side while they behave honorably... but if they slip Chaos-ward, there's a real possibility of retribution catching them with their pants down.

So while YES there were attempts, it was much less than one might expect; and many of the attempts were stopped in short order.

YGMV

Edited November 23, 2019 by g33k

[GianniVacca]

On 11/22/2019 at 10:13 PM, soltakss said:

So, rape is definitely a part of Glorantha.

 

Yes, but a much more dangerous one (for the perpetrator) than in the RW. As are torture, cannibalism, etc. I have increased the value of the Chaos Rune for players who were in a "D&D murderhobo" mode and that has calmed them down 🙂

[Glorion]

On 11/25/2019 at 11:36 AM, GianniVacca said:

Yes, but a much more dangerous one (for the perpetrator) than in the RW. As are torture, cannibalism, etc. I have increased the value of the Chaos Rune for players who were in a "D&D murderhobo" mode and that has calmed them down 🙂

Rape is I think pretty rare, except among those who don't mind turning into broos. That is definitely *not*  true for cannibalism, a major part of some cultures, notably the Old Tarshites, commonly seen as "good guys" unless you are a Lunar. Torture is quite common also, and there is no reason to expect that Sartarites would shrink back from torturing Lunar prisoners unless a Chalana Arroy is around to object. Human sacrifice is also fairly popular, though not among Sartarites. Primarily due to the fact that Ernaldans have human sacrifice rituals for "Year Kings,"  preferably Orlanthi.

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, Glorion said:

Rape is I think pretty rare, except among those who don't mind turning into broos. That is definitely *not*  true for cannibalism, a major part of some cultures, notably the Old Tarshites, commonly seen as "good guys" unless you are a Lunar. Torture is quite common also, and there is no reason to expect that Sartarites would shrink back from torturing Lunar prisoners unless a Chalana Arroy is around to object. Human sacrifice is also fairly popular, though not among Sartarites. Primarily due to the fact that Ernaldans have human sacrifice rituals for "Year Kings,"  preferably Orlanthi.

Maran Gor evidently has rites for their priestesses' cannibalism - presumably practiced on the bodies of the human sacrifices that are powering Shaker's Temple. Stuff done with the proper rites won't turn people into ogres. It doesn't make groups like the Cannibal Cult any less fearsome.

The Pentans appear to have some gruesome rites - ppssibly the result of their survival struggles in the Greater Darkness - that allows them to do stuff that would turn others into broo in no time short, Check the names "Eats Women" and "Eater of Flesh" in the Glorious ReAscent of Yelm.

[Bill the barbarian]

Hey follks, I would like to try an X card here. Since they were introduced as a concept I know they are not universally accepted but imagine what ever request you wish for this.. and remember I mean only the best here.

 

After two years about talking about rape, in oh so many ways and in oh so many Fora, the fascination still escapes me. To be honest it makes me sick to my stomach and very bothered to read about it, but there have actually been reasons to bring it up (interesting choice of words). Now for this  lengthy time I have said little unless it broke out into a fight and than I usually pointed people toward the tavern (where else should a fight breakout in an RPG forum?)...

I suppose I will have to see this topic coming back more times then Asborn Fourborn, but I really I must ask people to consider:

1 Taste and age... taste is self explanatory but do we want our children reading this? There are still children here, no?

2 Is it necessary, or has it already been done, said, beaten to death...

I realize that I can and probably will be ignored by many for this but I really REALLY do not want this to instigate a fight argument or even discussion in Pavis, Y’all know where the bar is.

Cheers and all the best

Edited December 3, 2019 by Bill the barbarian
tidying up punctuation, etc. ...

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Hey follks, I would like to try an X card here Since they were introduced as a concept I know they are not universally accepted but imagine what ever request you wish for this.. and remember I mean only the best here.

 

After two years about talking about rape in oh so many ways and in oh so many Fora, the fascination still escapes me. To be honest it makes me sick to my stomach and very bothered to read about it but there have actually been reasons to bring it up (interesting choice of words). Now for this  lengthy time I have said little unless it broke out into a fight and than I usually pointed people toward the tavern (where else would a fight breakout in an RPG forum...

I suppose I will have to see this topic coming back more times then Asborn Fourborn but I really must ask people to consider

1 Taste and age... taste is self explanatory but do we want our children reading this? There are still children here, no?

2 Is it necessary, or has it already been done, said, beaten to death....

I realize that I can and probably will be ignored by many for this but I really REALLY do not want this to instigate a fight argument or even discussion in Pavis, Y’all know where the bar is.

Cheers and all the best

I'm with Bill the barbarian. I find the direction that this thread has gone down to be tedious and its persistant revival to be disappointing. If you feel you absolutely must have a soul-crushing thread about torture, etc. then at the very least do it somewhere else than on a thread about Pavis. Future attempts to revive that discussion in this thread will get deleted by the administrators.

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

13 hours ago, Glorion said:

 Torture is quite common also, and there is no reason to expect that Sartarites would shrink back from torturing Lunar prisoners unless a Chalana Arroy is around to object.

Orlanth's 6 Virtues are Courage, Wisdom, Generosity, Justice, Honor & Piety.  Some could, arguably, be used to oppose torture.

Ikadz is the God of Torture and is generally seen as Chaotic.

However, that is when you take it to the extreme. A little bit of torture is fine, isn't it?

[Dissolv]

I'm a lot more interested in information about the Pavis supplement.  

Although we do have a ton on Pavis already, every time someone puts something out in the area (like the Sun County material), it is always top notch.   I'm not sure what there is exactly about this area that gets the creative juices going, but clearly people love to write about the setting.  Heck, even Griselda is set in Pavis.   Argrath gets his start in Pavis.  It's like "everybody goes to Rick's" for adventurers.  

[Bill the barbarian]

1 hour ago, Dissolv said:

Argrath gets his start in Pavis.  It's like "everybody goes to Rick's" for adventurers.  

Loud Lilina’s or the Temple for this barbarian... Mind you, if the chantey men are playing somewhere...

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, soltakss said:

Ikadz is the God of Torture and is generally seen as Chaotic.

However, that is when you take it to the extreme. A little bit of torture is fine, isn't it?

I would imagine a lot of peoples draw the line at doing it for your own sadistic pleasure. 

[soltakss]

On 12/3/2019 at 9:16 PM, Akhôrahil said:

I would imagine a lot of peoples draw the line at doing it for your own sadistic pleasure. 

So, the stereotypical film SS Colonel is fine then? "I have to say, it gives me no pleasure to do this, but I must".

[Bill the barbarian]

3 minutes ago, soltakss said:

So, the stereotypical film SS Colonel is fine then? "I have to say, it gives me no pleasure to do this, but I must".

Yes, as long as you draw the line at that  Canadian classic from the  70’s “Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS” you might t be okay.

[soltakss]

52 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Yes, as long as you draw the line at that  Canadian classic from the  70’s “Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS” you might t be okay.

Or the dentist scene from the Marathon Man ...

[soltakss]

53 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Yes, as long as you draw the line at that  Canadian classic from the  70’s “Ilsa, She Wolf of the SS” you might t be okay.

Wasn't there another one set in the Soviet Union? I think she got around a bit.

[Bill the barbarian]

Just now, soltakss said:

Or the dentist scene from the Marathon Man ...

orrrrr. the hooorrrooorrrr. 

Steve as the dentist in...

 

 

Little Shop of Horrors!

[Bill the barbarian]

@Trifletraxor

Edited December 6, 2019 by Bill the barbarian

[soltakss]

You're at it again!

 

You're at it again!

[Bill the barbarian]

1 minute ago, soltakss said:

You're at it again!

 

It is truly driving me crazy crazy see above...

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

So, the stereotypical film SS Colonel is fine then? "I have to say, it gives me no pleasure to do this, but I must".

I'm sure captives get tortured for information in every war in Glorantha (just as in the real world), and probably without it being regarded as particularly chaotic. It's the Done Thing. Torture (in the form of unnecessarily painful executions) might also be part of particularly bloody vengeance - carving the blood eagle, crucifixion, and so on, and be seen as extreme but not chaotic.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Akhôrahil

[Jon Hunter]

Anyway i'm actually interested in the orginal subject and aim of the thread ? 

What is Pavis going to be like in 1625 -27

Which cults hold power?

Which families fared well, which have done badly ?

Does the city feel lawless or civlized?

Is Argarath a good or bad ruler?  Is it meet the new boss same as the old boss?