Goods & Services

[buckwheats]

One of my players got very lucky during establishing family history and now sits on roughly 2.000L.

He now asked me, how he could invest all that money. Specifically he wanted to sponsor a new shrine or build his own house.

I was loathe to just guess, that's why I am asking here.

So is there a more complete list of goods and services anywhere?

Thanks.

[Ali the Helering]

2 hours ago, buckwheats said:

One of my players got very lucky during establishing family history and now sits on roughly 2.000L.

He now asked me, how he could invest all that money. Specifically he wanted to sponsor a new shrine or build his own house.

I was loathe to just guess, that's why I am asking here.

So is there a more complete list of goods and services anywhere?

Thanks.

I am afraid that it involves research if you want to construct a price system that in any way parallels the RW. 

House rental varies between 1.5 and 4 silver shekels per year (always strikes me as astoundingly reasonable) and the only price I can find for house purchase was 5 talents and 30 mina of lead! That computes to around 20,000 bolgs. 

Land purchase varies between 1 and 3 shekels depending upon distance from the settlement. 

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, buckwheats said:

One of my players got very lucky during establishing family history and now sits on roughly 2.000L.

He now asked me, how he could invest all that money. Specifically he wanted to sponsor a new shrine or build his own house.

I was loathe to just guess, that's why I am asking here.

So is there a more complete list of goods and services anywhere?

Thanks.

THere's a huge list of ways to spend money in RQG. Did that not work?

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

THere's a huge list of ways to spend money in RQG. Did that not work?

gods think of the household they could amass. sure you could get good armour but you could also have herds of shaggy cows! sheep, think of the sheep, gods you'd have wool for DAYS. You'd be on the fast track to the Ring if you knew how to give that away properly.

 

 

... this game does weird things to the brain

[Richard S.]

My sorcerer got about the same amount by pawning off a chunk of iron. I invested in some slave warriors and a magic crystal then squirreled the rest away.

[Qizilbashwoman]

8 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

My sorcerer got about the same amount by pawning off a chunk of iron. I invested in some slave warriors and a magic crystal then squirreled the rest away.

how do you feed the warriors

[Videopete]

Start by paying for training and gain nobility the old fashioned way.  Buy a wife and some extra hides from an impoverished noble. But I have  a feeling 2K Lunar ain't much.  A cow is only 20L, so it's only about 100 cows, or the equivalent of 5 hides. Enough for the land but not enough for the supporting staff and facilities.  So buy a hide, get a spouse, and set some aside for the ransom.

[Qizilbashwoman]

20 minutes ago, Videopete said:

Start by paying for training and gain nobility the old fashioned way.

"Nobility" in the familiar our-world sense is not a thing in Theyalan societies, which involves wealthgiving and personal achievement, but certainly wealth is a valuable resource in the trail to glory that gives you a nice leg up.

You can't buy a wife. But you can buy livestock and get someone to work it for percentage.

[Akhôrahil]

If you mean "invest" literally, 1500 L nets you 500 sheep. That's enough to put 5 herders to work, and you will earn (on a successful Manage Household roll and after taxes) 160L yearly, which is pretty damned good and supports a Noble living standard. 

Edited January 4, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[scott-martin]

Great question. The back of my google envelope tells me that a Greek in 400 BC might pay 20-50 cows for a new house (typically 3000 square feet so you can play with graph paper) and the land will be extra. Buying an existing building in a really prime location might be 2.5X as expensive. A hut in the boondocks could go down to 2-3 cows. And of course fantasy bronze age may differ.

It would be fun to build an Apple Lane. Any money left over could ransom people the player likes . . . become a kind of "gini banker" or bail bond office. Distraught families come in and make their plea, the players decide whether it's worth taking the case and buying this person back for the right terms. While waiting for the locals to get into trouble, buy your Harst license and park the cash in commodities you bargained down on the right day and are saving for the right minute to sell. Suddenly you're a shrine. Hire a few derelicts to whittle the sticks into furniture or whatever. The adventure begins.

EDIT and the most important thing for campaign planning purposes: where did this dragon hoard come from and who else wants a piece?

Edited January 4, 2020 by scott-martin

[Ali the Helering]

Oh yeah, investments.  The general rate of interest across the Bronze / Early Iron Ancient Near East appears to have been 20%. A specific 'new Sumerian' deal is at a very generous 8.5%, while a specific Neo-Assyrian one is at a hefty 3.3% per month. I can only find evidence for Simple interest rates, not Compound. 

 

If you want a wider group of pricing structures, although from the later Iron and an imposed pattern that brought the Roman Empire to the brink of total collapse, have a look at Diocletian's 'Price Edict'. 😩

Edited January 4, 2020 by Ali the Helering

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

a Noble living standard

now that's a thing that exists in Theyalan society! The real question is how much you should expect to tithe to family who suddenly start living with you

[Shiningbrow]

Are you allowing for retroactive use of the funds, such as they're allowed to spend some on Bless Pregnancy to.get highest stats?

Can they spend on training for stats?

Powered (or even dead) crystals?

Spell matrices?

Or even blessings or buffs? (E.g., sorcery)

 

Less personal, paying for votive images in shrines (a 100L image gives one extra RP return per season).

Or... Host a large party, including expensive sacrifices, ensuring a famous bard/story-teller is there to sing praises for years to come! Invite influential nobles etc. Give lots of shiny gifts... Rule of hospitality and all! 

Edited January 5, 2020 by Shiningbrow
OMGs.... Weird auto-correct!!!

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Are you allowing for retroactive use of the funds, such as they're allowed to spend some on Bless Pregnancy to.get highest stats?

I don't uh think you can spend your inheritance before you are born

[Bill the barbarian]

13 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I don't uh think you can spend your inheritance before you are born

and why ever not?

we are spending our unborn grandkids inheritance everyday here on the blue marble.
sigh

[g33k]

58 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I don't uh think you can spend your inheritance before you are born

I think the idea is, can you take a given sum (rolled before birth as inheritance-to-come) as alternative "services" of equivalent value (such as Bless Pregnancy)?

I am inclined to look with a jaundiced, anti-munchkin eye at the general question, and say "MAYBE:  decide case-by-case, and disallow anything too munchkinous."

But there's too much scope for awesome stories in these sorts of custom backstories; a flat always-disallow would disallow that awesome.

Others' GWV.

Edited January 5, 2020 by g33k

[Videopete]

First of all parents spend their Kids future money all the time. Where do you think the money for college went. And moving fund from liquid assets to land and cattle is an investment.

[Austin]

22 hours ago, Jeff said:

THere's a huge list of ways to spend money in RQG. Did that not work?

I mean, it sounds like it didn't? Plenty of fancy stuff to buy, but less in the way of homesteading stuff the OP's player is interested in.

@buckwheats I figure most of that sort of stuff is slated for the Gamemaster's Guide (or whichever book that got transformed into now), since the stuff in the core rulebook seems more in the vein of "things you can carry around/poke around with a stick."

I seem to recall greater Glorantha buffs than I suggesting somewhere that it'd be damn hard or impossible to just buy a hide of land. Sort of as an "un-Gloranthan" concept (although of course YGMV ) due to clan dynamics regarding control of land and whatnot. Of course, if this is 2,000L in inheritance that inheritance might have come down as land, a house, etc., so who knows...

On MGF, maybe take a look at what the Thane of Apple Lane gets in the Gamemaster Screen Pack, and consider offering your player that package (or slightly reduced?) as an equivalent, and a warning about the sorts of challenges having to take care of tenant farmers can lead to—but hey, plenty of story hooks, and a place for the rest of the adventurers to bed down! I've got no real clue what 2,000L should equate to in terms of tangible property, but that's double a priest or noble's (starting) ransom, so...

Hrm. Double a noble's ransom. "Everything I have!" as ransom if someone won't provide surety to pay, so maybe a Thane's package for 1k?

I'm fixating on the Thane bit because it seems simplest and to involve the least math. And, it's the only example I think we've got of a minor noble's possessions being written up.

[Brootse]

On 1/4/2020 at 12:13 PM, buckwheats said:

One of my players got very lucky during establishing family history and now sits on roughly 2.000L.

He now asked me, how he could invest all that money. Specifically he wanted to sponsor a new shrine or build his own house.

I was loathe to just guess, that's why I am asking here.

So is there a more complete list of goods and services anywhere?

Thanks.

If you divide the prices from the old editions by 10 you get about the current edition's prices. People's houses cost about their yearly income, and this seems to be quite accurate historically. He could perhaps "buy" (by giving gifts) land, and building labor and materials from a chieftain or a king, and go to a slave market to buy slaves. 2000L would get him a large house, two hides of land and slaves to work the land and serve him. His yearly income would be 80L. If he wanted to just get something built, a mansion from RQ3 would be 2400L RQG Lunars, so 2000L should be enough for a small temple.

Another way to handle the gifts would be to use the Loyalty Passions:

Gifts
For every 20 L given as gifts to another adventurer, temple, or other community, an adventurer may get a +1% bonus to a single Loyalty roll with that entity. For every 50 L given, the adventurer gets a +1% cumulative and permanent increase in that Loyalty.

So giving all that money to the local temple/clan/tribe would give him Loyalty (Temple/Clan/Tribe) 100% and +100% for his next Loyalty roll. You could also combine these methods and give him the Loyalty bonuses, and have some important NPC in your campaign give him a title and job like eg. the Thain of Apple Lane.

[Shiningbrow]

The character shouldn't really need to do any "buying". It should all have been inherited (as a good backstory for a Noble occupation).

[g33k]

18 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

The character shouldn't really need to do any "buying". It should all have been inherited (as a good backstory for a Noble occupation).

Well, maybe SOME buying.  Maybe he inherited a busy mercantile operation in Boldhome, and needs to buy goods to sell there; maybe he inherited lands outside Sartar-proper ("outside" because, as noted, Clan lands are Clan-owned) and needs to decide if he'll have ranching or farming, and either way what he'll put onto the land... and then BUY that!  (And get some people to work the hides).

Etc.

[Akhôrahil]

51 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

The character shouldn't really need to do any "buying". It should all have been inherited (as a good backstory for a Noble occupation).

Since this was generated in Family history, it’s already defined where it came from, surely? Or do you just mean that the inheritance shouldn’t be in cash?

Edited January 6, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[g33k]

20 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Since this was generated in Family history, it’s already defined where it came from, surely?

Yes, but the query is specifically (as I understand it) if the player may opt to change the "form" of the value received.  If the table specifies 200L from here, and 500L from there, may the character instead begin play with 700L worth of goods and/or services?  Still coming from the same ancestor(s) and patron(s), but coming as non-cash awards...

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Well, maybe SOME buying.  Maybe he inherited a busy mercantile operation in Boldhome, and needs to buy goods to sell there; maybe he inherited lands outside Sartar-proper ("outside" because, as noted, Clan lands are Clan-owned) and needs to decide if he'll have ranching or farming, and either way what he'll put onto the land... and then BUY that!  (And get some people to work the hides).

Etc.

True the first bit.

No reason the lands couldn't have been gifted (unless, of course, it came from outside the clan... But even then a case could be made).

[Brootse]

On 1/4/2020 at 6:59 PM, Ali the Helering said:

Oh yeah, investments.  The general rate of interest across the Bronze / Early Iron Ancient Near East appears to have been 20%. A specific 'new Sumerian' deal is at a very generous 8.5%, while a specific Neo-Assyrian one is at a hefty 3.3% per month. I can only find evidence for Simple interest rates, not Compound. 

 

If you want a wider group of pricing structures, although from the later Iron and an imposed pattern that brought the Roman Empire to the brink of total collapse, have a look at Diocletian's 'Price Edict'. 😩

Diocletian's Edict of prices most certainly didn't "bring the Roman empire to the brink of total collapse". It didn't fix the rampant inflation, and caused some economic distubance, and then was ignored. But for a very short period of time it showed the approximate prices of some goods and services. If we use the untrained worker's daily wage as the baseline -25 denarii + upkeep of about 8 denarii- we can divide the denarii prices with 330 to get RQG Lunar prices.

Some examples of the prices. A Roman cow was worth 5 Roman sheep, while in Dragon Pass the rate is 6.67 sheep per cow. But the Roman cows would have been cheaper for an untrained worker, costing only 60 days of work, compared to the 200 days of work for the Dragon Pass worker. The prices for male slaves are quite similar, 909 and 1000 days of work.