Elmal?

[JustAnotherVingan]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Except that Elmal seems like he will be an awful pick for anyone wanting fighting magic, if he’s going to be a poor man’s Yelmalio, when Yelmalio already has among the weakest magic of any of the gods.

If the player is roleplaying is that why they pick a cult? Surely choosing a cult is at least partly picking an archetype that fits the character the player wishes to play.

Not that there aren't quiet, thoughtful Uroxi but they are probably going to be unusual.

Its possible that Elmal and Yelmalio will be uncommon picks except when the campaign is set in an area where those cults provide the local leadership but they are uncommon cults outside those areas.

The gods vary in power and influence, that's going to affect how useful they are in game terms but they can still offer roleplaying opportunities.

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, JustAnotherVingan said:

If the player is roleplaying is that why they pick a cult? Surely choosing a cult is at least partly picking an archetype that fits the character the player wishes to play.

The point of the discussion was that some cults are really bad from the perspective of performing rules-wise in play. Recommending Yelmalio (or, supposedly, Elmal) as a cult for a warrior without big qualifications may lead to an unhappy player. Being able to see in the dark while the others toss lightning or cut ghosts at 200% skill might feel... unimpressive. 

This doesn’t mean these cults are wrong for someone wanting this play experience, but they’re not cults that can be safely recommended the way Humakt and Orlanth can.

[JustAnotherVingan]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

The point of the discussion was that some cults are really bad from the perspective of performing rules-wise in play. Recommending Yelmalio (or, supposedly, Elmal) as a cult for a warrior without big qualifications may lead to an unhappy player. Being able to see in the dark while the others toss lightning or cut ghosts at 200% skill might feel... unimpressive. 

This doesn’t mean these cults are wrong for someone wanting this play experience, but they’re not cults that can be safely recommended the way Humakt and Orlanth can.

That's not a reason for complaining about the cults as presented though. Its a reason for the referee to give advice to inexperienced players but trying to balance cults in the way D&D classes are balanced would make Glorantha a less interesting place.

[Qizilbashwoman]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

With RQG though, at least you can extend this to "pick Humakt or Orlanth - do you prefer swords or lightning?". 🙂

There's a few choices. Heler is also one, [insert name variant of Redalda] as well as Yinkin all jump to mind.

[Akhôrahil]

Just now, JustAnotherVingan said:

That's not a reason for complaining about the cults as presented though. Its a reason for the referee to give advice to inexperienced players

Yes, or perhaps for the game book to give this information to inexperienced GMs or other new readers. 

[Akhôrahil]

7 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

There's a few choices. Heler is also one, [insert name variant of Redalda] as well as Yinkin all jump to mind.

Ooh, Yinkin is not a good fighter cult - it’s another cult with very limited magic (and unlike Odayla, who has few but brutally powerful spells). And Redalda doesn’t exist even in the Cults book, does she?

Is Heler any good (from a combat perspective) in the Cults book?

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Tindalos]

3 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

If the player is roleplaying is that why they pick a cult? Surely choosing a cult is at least partly picking an archetype that fits the character the player wishes to play.

Not that there aren't quiet, thoughtful Uroxi but they are probably going to be unusual.

Except maybe in Pelanda.

But I agree, there's more there than just relative power. But fitting stuff is nice. And of course there's the irony of the version most famous for losing their heat aspect having the most fire magic.

  

5 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Well, Elmal is most strongly worshipped by Hyalorings, so yeah, that makes sense.

But, as I've said, I still don't know who "the sun" is.... 

The guide and sourcebook say Elmal and that's good enough for me.

5 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I still think Elmal should be a variant of the Sun-as-Horse. The Riders brought Elmal south and His worship was assimilated. The Thane of Orlanth isn't the great lord Yelm, but He still keeps the stead warm and safe.

I don't know about spells, but I'd focus on his role as supporter. Maybe he should have the fiery bow spell? YGWV

The Sun-as-Horse is sometimes an aspect of Yelm and sometimes an aspect of Yelmalio, depending on the time, found as Kargzant, Beren, Galan(in/a), etc. Just like the Bird aspect is likely Sun Hawk and Tholm.

[Lordabdul]

36 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

Its a reason for the referee to give advice to inexperienced players but trying to balance cults in the way D&D classes are balanced would make Glorantha a less interesting place.

Nobody asked for cults to be balanced (I specifically said that it wasn't the point). But yes, I did ask for advice. As a newcomer to Glorantha, I'm the GM who is supposed to give advice to players. So I need advice myself. That's why I said it would be nice if either the Cults book or Gamemaster Guide had such advice, with both roleplay and gameplay comparative descriptions of cults.

35 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

There's a few choices. Heler is also one, [insert name variant of Redalda] as well as Yinkin all jump to mind.

As @Akhôrahil said, I don't think Yinkin is a good fighter cult. It's more of a Rogue/Thief cult (with a bit of overlap with the Rogue/Ranger of Odayla). As for Heler, I don't know how that cult will be in the Cults book, but I hope it won't have a lame treatment like "it's a subcult of Orlanth for people who want gender-related roleplaying opportunities, but woops you loose all kinds of cool magic and weapon bonuses, and gain the ability to make rain instead" (unless it's converted to an "NPC cult").

Gameplay-wise, cults are really like, say, archetypes/playbooks in PbtA games or something. Players pick them because they fit what they want to play as a character, and that has to translate to stats somehow. You can either play the crop-blessing-and-battle-support Earth priestess, or the Chaos-fighting berserker, or the undead-loving troll warrior, or the sun-reflecting-shield-wielding hoplite soldier, and so on. But there's a bunch of cults for which I have no idea what the "less than 10 words elevator pitch" is. I'm definitely not sure how to pitch Heler or Elmal to my players (although given Jeff's comment, it's possible that gods like Heler are a consequence of Greg writing material without playing it).

Edited January 22, 2020 by lordabdul

[Ali the Helering]

26 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

 

The Sun-as-Horse is sometimes an aspect of Yelm and sometimes an aspect of Yelmalio, depending on the time, found as Kargzant, Beren, Galan(in/a), etc. Just like the Bird aspect is likely Sun Hawk and Tholm.

 

Let us never forget Veng/Ghevengus, now only treated as a demonic aspect inside Dara Happa.  There is every reason to suppose that he continues in his full nature (God of Avilry) in Rinliddi. 

The name Ghevengus illustrating his celestial origin. 

Edited January 22, 2020 by Ali the Helering

[Akhôrahil]

31 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Except maybe in Pelanda.

I badly hope Bisos shows up in the Cults book.

[Akhôrahil]

16 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

 But there's a bunch of cults for which I have no idea what the "less than 10 words elevator pitch" is. I'm definitely not sure how to pitch Heler or Elmal to my players.

Elmal I think I could do (“Steadfast god of the sun and horses”). Heler without making him look like meeker Orlanth might be hard (especially as Orlanth already covers rain fairly well with Cloud Call). Seven Mothers Collective... no way could I even get started in ten words!

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

10 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Elmal I think I could do (“Steadfast god of the sun and horses”).

I'm talking about the pitch for what kind of characters the players would play. Not a pitch for the deity itself. In some cases, the god and the initiates are the same, or close ("Chaos-hating beer-drinking berserker"), but when you're an initiate of Elmal you're not a "steadfast god of the sun and horses"... what are you? "horse-riding average fighter with weak light powers"?

Edited January 22, 2020 by lordabdul

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

I'm talking about the pitch for what kind of characters the players would play.

Good point! ”Horse-riding noble with Sun powers”, perhaps? (Unfortunately, it seems that you should add in ”weak” before ”Sun powers” and append ”who hasn’t learned to worship his god the proper way yet”...)

[Tindalos]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Good point! ”Horse-riding noble with Sun powers”, perhaps? (Unfortunately, it seems that you should add in ”weak” before ”Sun powers” and append ”who hasn’t learned to worship his god the proper way yet”...)

Geas-bound warrior who carries light with them.

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, Tindalos said:

Geas-bound warrior who carries light with them.

Do Elmali have geases now? How did that happen?!

Edited January 22, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Tindalos]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Do Elmali have geases now? How did that happen?!

Well from the latest version of the write up I've seen, here.

 

[Akhôrahil]

37 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Well from the latest version of the write up I've seen, here.

Whoa. What’s the backstory for the geases here? They have never been seen before.

Getting Shield as Rune magic is a massive deal, though, and puts them head over shoulders beyond Yelmalio in the magic department. Much better player characters from a performance standpoint. So take that, Yelmalio! 😉

Edited January 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Lordabdul]

21 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Well from the latest version of the write up I've seen, here.

Thanks! Well at least that makes Elmal's elevator pitch easier to come up with. I assume the roleplaying aspects will be quite different from Yelmalio though, even if the mechanics are very similar.

[Akhôrahil]

27 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Thanks! Well at least that makes Elmal's elevator pitch easier to come up with. I assume the roleplaying aspects will be quite different from Yelmalio though, even if the mechanics are very similar.

Actually, likely to function better than Yelmalio for adventurers. The whole pike thing is weird for adventurers, while a lance and bow cavalry package (supported by the Fire rune) with scouting (Farsee, Catseye, Fire rune) and acces to an actual combat spell (Shield) seems like it could work out fine. Both fills a niche and stands out in a Sartarite group.

I’d play it.

(That and you avoid some of the worst Yelmalio cultural traits, if that’s a factor.)

Edited January 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Qizilbashwoman]

Redalda, Redaylda, etc. is Elmal's wife or daughter and/or Beren's wife, the horse goddess of the Orlanthi, and the apex ancestor of the Berennethtelli, is she really being ignored?

I think you could mock her up pretty fast if that's so.

Yinkin is in fact a kind of fighter: the skirmisher and ambusher. Reda(y)lda is the cavalry, and Heler is sort of like a D&D monk, I'd say. Water magic is going to be interesting; we know Heler and his kin on land are famous grapplers and brawlers with tremendous constitution. (Not the D&D kind.)

Edited January 23, 2020 by Qizilbashwoman

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

Redalda, Redaylda, etc. is Elmal's wife or daughter and/or Beren's wife, the horse goddess of the Orlanthi, and the apex ancestor of the Berennethtelli, is she really being ignored?

I think you could mock her up pretty fast if that's so.

Yinkin is in fact a kind of fighter: the skirmisher and ambusher. Reda(y)lda is the cavalry, and Heler is sort of like a D&D monk, I'd say. Water magic is going to be interesting; we know Heler and his kin on land are famous grapplers and brawlers with tremendous constitution. (Not the D&D kind.)

With the write-up linked, you could probably say that Redalda is just ”Elmal for women” in the same way as Vinga for Orlanth. No special rules required.

(The “only love Earth worshipers” geas might be tricky for straight Redaldans, though.)

Also, Barntar is the best wrestler!

Edited January 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Richard S.]

(Maybe this is a little late but it's still appropriate methinks)

[Qizilbashwoman]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Also, Barntar is the best wrestler!

Barntarites just hit people with a plow

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

(Maybe this is a little late but it's still appropriate methinks)

BRP can have a little Elmal infighting, as a treat

[Shiningbrow]

@Akhôrahil why limit your PCs to just 1 cult? Sure, for starting characters you might, but if you're looking for a longer campaign, I'd mention that they can join associated cults. 

Looking from that perspective, Yelmalio gets Yelm, Elmal gets Orlanth (+). Humakt perhaps gets nobody!

[Lordabdul]

17 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Looking from that perspective, Yelmalio gets Yelm, Elmal gets Orlanth (+). Humakt perhaps gets nobody!

Humakt has no associated cults, yes, but I think it only means that you won't find Humakti shrines or other worship sites at any other cult temple, and no cult teaches secrets (like special magic) to Humakti initiates. But as far as being a lay member or initiate of multiple cults, RQG only says the cults must be "compatible". I haven't found out if that means "at least neutral" or "at least friendly", but that opens up opportunities for Humakti to belong to a couple other cults at least, if not many other cults. They would have separate Rune point pools though.

Edited January 23, 2020 by lordabdul