Elmal?

[Darius West]

16 hours ago, lordabdul said:

....or that the Elmal cult has been absorbed by the Yelmalio cult politically and culturally speaking, which is apparently what happened.

I agree with this interpretations lordabdul, and I would also add that the absorption is not complete, despite the colonialist efforts of Harvar Ironspear.  Elements of the Tovtari and the Tres never accepted this new cold sun, just as they never accepted the Chaos Moon. 

[Jeff]

12 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Hm. If you had an Elmali, a Yelmalion, a Kargzanti, and an Antirian all together, what would they think of each other? I'd imagine the Yelmalion would either try to convince them they really worshiped Yelmalio or just be quietly assured of it himself, but how would the others feel about worshippers of the other forms of Lightfore?

Probably about the same as if you got a Roman, an Athenian, a Thracian, and a Syrian together. They'd likely all agree that Jupiter, Zeus, Zibelthiurdos, and Baal are names for the same entity (the old interpretatio graeco) and be impressed with whoever had the most secrets about the god.  

[Minlister]

And then the Roman calls the legion and win the argument

[Jeff]

Just now, Minlister said:

And then the Roman calls the legion and win the argument

By putting up a column to Jupiter Dolichenus. And maybe labelling it also in Greek as Zeus Orimasdes.

 

[Tindalos]

1 minute ago, Jeff said:

By putting up a column to Jupiter Dolichenus. And maybe labelling it also in Greek as Zeus Orimasdes.

 

Or somewhere else, like say maybe on a prominent hill, and upsetting the locals when they plan to dedicate it to Jupiter Capitolinus and get Simon ben Kosevah involved.

[soltakss]

23 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

He's repeatedly called "the sun god" in the Guide, though, and carries the sun on his back/is the divine sun stallion.

Yelm is the sun god.

Yelmalio is the sun god.

Elmal is the sun god.

Yamsur is the sun god.

Kargzant is the sun god.

They are all the sun god.

They are all variants of the sun god.

in Glorantha, each culture might think that their god is the "real" sun god, but saying that any one god is the only god of something is probably wrong.

[Minlister]

@Jeff Well, I doubt it will work on the Athenian and the Thracian, but, of course, I see your point, very "We are all us".

This reminds me the beautiful Flaubert sentence "The gods being no more and Christ not having yet come, there was a time from Cicero to Marcus Aurelius when there was only man" (les dieux n'étant plus et Christ n'étant pas encore, il y eut un temps, de Cicéron à Marc Aurèle, où l'homme seul a été". (from memory so maybe slightly mistaken)

Edited January 25, 2020 by Minlister

[soltakss]

On 1/24/2020 at 1:13 PM, Darius West said:

On 1/24/2020 at 1:01 PM, Jeff said:

Yelmalio appears in Orlanth's myths. And Yelmalio also has his own myth cycle - which actually has more interaction with Orlanth and Ernalda. 

Except that Yelmalio didn't exist yet.  Yelmalio only comes about as a result of Monrogh and distinctly after time begins, ergo, a separate deity who was retrofitted into the myths and smacks of God Learning

The cult of Yelmalio, as restructured by Monrogh, is a recent construct. However, it builds on earlier cults that may, or may not, have been Yelmalio. I am happy to give them the benefit of the doubt.

After all, the Sun Dome temples in Balazar date back to before the Dragonkill, way before Monrogh, as does the Sun Dome Temple in Prax.

So, clearly, the cult of Yelmalio existed before Monrogh. What Monrogh did was to attract many of the worshippers of Elmal to the cult of Yelmalio.

On 1/24/2020 at 12:40 PM, Darius West said:

So, how is it then that Elmal features in Orlanthi myths, but Yelmalion has his own and very separate myth cycle?  I simply don't buy it.  If there are tribes still worshipping Elmal, then they aren't worshipping Yelmalio.  2 different gods.  No monomyth. Consider... how many Sun gods are there?  Are they all the same or all different?  Even in Dara Happa there are dozens of deities who are all essentially just the Sun, but are also different deities, or at least different aspects of the deity.

Elmal and Yelmalio are different gods. They are also the same god worshipped in different ways. Both can be true mythically and both can be true in God Time.

Think of it this way. At the Hill of Gold, Orlanth meets Yelmalio and defeats him, stripping him of his armour, thus showing that Air/Storm is victorious over Fire/Sky. One myth of Elmal might be that Orlanth then gave his armour back to Elmal when he met him later, thus showing the bonds of friendship between Air/storm and Fire/Sky. So, Elmal is the Thane who left the Fire Tribe and joined the Storm Tribe. 

So, Yelmalio cultists don't remember the myths of Yelmalio as Orlanth's Thane, because they concentrate on their own myths. Elmal cultists don't bother with myths of being an elf-friend or of fighting Storm Gods, as they don't fit their cult beliefs. 

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by soltakss

[soltakss]

19 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Classing him as a subcult to Yelmalio in the actual rules is making such an objective determination, though. This is one reason I dislike it. It's now an objective fact of the world that Elmal is just Yelmalio.

That is just to save space, I think.

19 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It would be different if it was just "instead of printing Elmal on his own, just use Yelmalio with these changes" for initiates (I handle Uralda as variant-Eiritha for now, for instance, in the absence of a write-up). 

That is essentially what is happening.

14 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Even if it's not really canon, Elmal Guards the Stead has got me thinking. We know that, for a little bit, probably directly after the dawn before they had met the Pelorians, Elmal was the primary sun god of the Heortlings. Perhaps back then he had some disease fighting powers similar to Yelm's, won from the foes he fought while guarding the stead, and after Yelm was encountered and identified as the sun those powers were gradually forgotten and the myth changed to emphasize Elmal as Loyal Thane. I'm tempted to give a "secret" association between Yelm and Elmal that grants Fight Disease, perhaps requiring some unorthodox questing through that myth. Not sure if I'd allow the same opportunity to Yelmalions though.

That makes sense. I can see some Clans having a subcult that other people don't have.

14 hours ago, Richard S. said:

Hm. If you had an Elmali, a Yelmalion, a Kargzanti, and an Antirian all together, what would they think of each other? I'd imagine the Yelmalion would either try to convince them they really worshiped Yelmalio or just be quietly assured of it himself, but how would the others feel about worshippers of the other forms of Lightfore?

They would probably accept each other as sun cultists.

I don't think they would particularly care that the gods are the same or different. What they would care about is their attitudes to different things. A lot of them hate trolls, great. Yelmalio sort-of likes Lunars, not so great. Antirius doesn't like storm barbarians, not so great for the Elmali but fine for the Yelmalian. 

The only people who would be interested in combining them are HeroQuestors.

 

 

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

The cult of Yemlaio, as restructured by Monrogh, is a recent construct. However, it builds on earlier cults that may, or may not, have been Yelmalio. I am happy to give them the benefit of the doubt.

The benefit of the doubt in what sense?

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

After all, the Sun Dome temples in Balazar date back to before the Dragonkill, way before Monrogh, as does the Sun Dome Temple in Prax.

Actually the Sun Dome in Balazaar worships the hero Balazaar not Yelmalio.  Now Balazaar was some sort of Sun Worshipper, but can we be sure that he really worshipped Yelmalio?  I know it says so in Griffin Mountain, but that was written in our world pre-Elmal.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

So, clearly, the cult of Yemlaio existed before Monrogh. What Monrogh did was to attract many of the worshippers of Elmal to the cult of Yelmlaio.

 Monrogh was a late-comer.  He only died in 1582.  No doubt sent by the Lunars to stir up trouble in Sartar and to split the Elmali clans of the South.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Elmal and Yelmalio are different gods. 

Correct.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

They are also the same god worshipped in different ways. Both can be true mythically and both can be true in God Time.

 I am sure that the God Learners could also invent reasons why Shargash and Orlanth are the same deity.  The same god worshipped in different ways.  That doesn't make it so in all places and for all peoples or for all time.  Regional differences matter.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

Think of it this way. At the Hill of Gold, Orlanth meets Yelmalio and defeats him, stripping him of his armour, thus showing that Air/Storm is victorious over Fire/Sky. One myth of Elmal might be that Orlanth then gave his armour back to Elmal when he met him later, thus showing the bonds of friendship between Air/storm and Fire/Sky. So, Elmal is the Thane who left the Fire Tribe and joined the Storm Tribe. 

Pics or it never happened.

1 hour ago, soltakss said:

So, Yelmalio cultists don't remember the myths of Yelmalio as Orlanth's Thane, because they concentrate on their own myths. Elmal cultists don't bother with myths of being an elf-friend or of fighting Storm Gods, as they don't fit their cult beliefs. 

Oh, they remember all right, and the memory shames them.  It shames them because they realise they betrayed their sovereign Yelm.  It shames them because they realise that they betrayed their sovereign Orlanth too.  Yelmalio is a twice traitor and a bit too close to Thanatar for anyone's liking.  Elmal however is a loyal thane.  Who would you sooner worship?  Me?  I'd like to bind Monrogh in a POW crystal for all time.

[kr0p0s]

10 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Yelmalio is a twice traitor and a bit too close to Thanatar for anyone's liking.

Hey! What? Thanatar?

[jajagappa]

7 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Although, my understanding is that a lot of Sartar, Holy Country and surroundings aren't that high up...

Upland Marsh is probably one of the low points in Sartar and that's 700 meters above sea level. And it goes up from there. All of Sartar is high up.

Holy Country depends on which part. Much of Esrolia is low and flat. Heortland is a high plateau around 300 meters above sea level.

16 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Actually the Sun Dome in Balazaar worships the hero Balazaar not Yelmalio.  Now Balazaar was some sort of Sun Worshipper, but can we be sure that he really worshipped Yelmalio? 

There is a long history of Yelmalion Sun Domes in Saird. That's their origin point. They produced the soldiers who died in the Dragonkill, and most indications are that they produced Balazar as well. The temples survived the Dragonkill (north of the Death Line), and were still the heart of the Yelmalio cult. Monrogh simply brought back the cult worship, practice, and rites from these temples to Sartar.

[Shiningbrow]

55 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Pics or it never happened.

😛

 

[Shiningbrow]

I finally got my hands (mouse??) on Smoking Ruins today.

Perhaps you can understand my bemusement given this thread (and others like it) at the opening lines of the first adventure...

"It is Waterday, Harmony Week, in 1626, a typical day in Clearwine Fort. The weather is beautiful: bright, sunny, warm. Yelm shines in all his glory, his worshippers couldn't ask for anything better. Auspicious indeed".

 

Unless, of course, you're Orlanthi!!! 

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I finally got my hands (mouse??) on Smoking Ruins today.

Perhaps you can understand my bemusement given this thread (and others like it) at the opening lines of the first adventure...

"It is Waterday, Harmony Week, in 1626, a typical day in Clearwine Fort. The weather is beautiful: bright, sunny, warm. Yelm shines in all his glory, his worshippers couldn't ask for anything better. Auspicious indeed".

 

Unless, of course, you're Orlanthi!!! 

Few Orlanthi have any problem at all with Yelm in the sky. After all, putting him back there was Orlanth's greatest deed.

 

[White Coke]

Are there going to be separate cult rules for Antirius and Kargzant?

[Tindalos]

20 minutes ago, White Coke said:

Are there going to be separate cult rules for Antirius and Kargzant?

Not separate cults, but variant cults, going from the last thing I saw on the matter.

[Richard S.]

57 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

Not separate cults, but variant cults, going from the last thing I saw on the matter.

I want to know what Arrow of Light does so I can compare all of their magics. I'm assuming it's basically just an arrow that hurts creatures of darkness, since I haven't seen it in any previous editions.

[Qizilbashwoman]

12 hours ago, Darius West said:

Now Balazaar was some sort of Sun Worshipper, but can we be sure that he really worshipped Yelmalio?  I know it says so in Griffin Mountain, but that was written in our world pre-Elmal.

Balazar definitely 100% worshipped Yelmalio, this is definite. I'm an Elmali and I am 100% certain about Balazar - he was a grade A Yelmalion. Well, Tharkantite. At the time, Yelmalio was known as the "Banked Fire" or whatever Tharkantus means. The shrines in Balazar have Balazar as the chief Hero of the cult but the main god of the Domes is Yelmalio. They are not for Balazar, they are Yelmalio shrines that focus on Balazar as His main subcult.

 

[Shiningbrow]

14 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Upland Marsh is probably one of the low points in Sartar and that's 700 meters above sea level. And it goes up from there. All of Sartar is high up.

Holy Country depends on which part. Much of Esrolia is low and flat. Heortland is a high plateau around 300 meters above sea level.

After checking, that's most of Spain, Greece, Italy, Turkey..   so, nice warm sunny places...

[Mirza]

I actually have a question that this topic is somewhat related to, does Kargzant have a Hill of Gold style quest? Forgive my ignorance, but while I know Kargzant's mythic role to the Pentans, and Grazers as their Lightfore god, and thus probably has one, I'm not familiar with his myths themselves.

I'm also wondering a bit about how in Grazer religion how much Kargzant is subsumed into Yu-Kargzant, are there still Kargzant cultists in Grazer society? Or is the subsuming of Kargzant so complete that he is only given praise to in worship for Yu-Kargzant? I know the Solar Pentans worship him still apart from the Sun as his own deity, but the Grazers it's more ambiguous to me.

[Jeff]

16 minutes ago, Mirza said:

I actually have a question that this topic is somewhat related to, does Kargzant have a Hill of Gold style quest? Forgive my ignorance, but while I know Kargzant's mythic role to the Pentans, and Grazers as their Lightfore god, and thus probably has one, I'm not familiar with his myths themselves.

I'm also wondering a bit about how in Grazer religion how much Kargzant is subsumed into Yu-Kargzant, are there still Kargzant cultists in Grazer society? Or is the subsuming of Kargzant so complete that he is only given praise to in worship for Yu-Kargzant? I know the Solar Pentans worship him still apart from the Sun as his own deity, but the Grazers it's more ambiguous to me.

Kargzant/Yelmalio does not have much of a cult among the Grazers or other Pure Horse People (such as the Char'un). They are descended from the Hyalorings, and maintained strict taboos that kept them "pure" enough to directly contact Yelm with the Dawn. During the rule of the Sons of the Sun, they served as a priestly tribe. The Grazers did not embrace Yelmalio (whose cult is much more open and accessible than Yelm's) during their time in Prax, and remained "pure" Yelm worshipers. Although they have included worship of the Lightbringers, and have switched Dendara for Ernalda, they are still Yelm worshipers rather than Yelmalion (as explained in Greg's old essay, the Grazers's beliefs were untroubled by the renewed contact with lowland Peloria - in part because they already had their crisis of faith and ended up with the Feathered Horse Queen).

[Mirza]

25 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Kargzant/Yelmalio does not have much of a cult among the Grazers or other Pure Horse People (such as the Char'un). They are descended from the Hyalorings, and maintained strict taboos that kept them "pure" enough to directly contact Yelm with the Dawn. During the rule of the Sons of the Sun, they served as a priestly tribe. The Grazers did not embrace Yelmalio (whose cult is much more open and accessible than Yelm's) during their time in Prax, and remained "pure" Yelm worshipers. Although they have included worship of the Lightbringers, and have switched Dendara for Ernalda, they are still Yelm worshipers rather than Yelmalion (as explained in Greg's old essay, the Grazers's beliefs were untroubled by the renewed contact with lowland Peloria - in part because they already had their crisis of faith and ended up with the Feathered Horse Queen).

Oh wow, that actually makes things click into place rather nicely, I hadn't really considered that by being Pure Horse People that had allowed for direct contact with Yelm at the Dawn, I just (incorrectly) assumed that the Yu-Kargzant cult "grew" out of the Kargzant cult at some later date. Thanks for the corrections and clarifications Jeff.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Mirza
Added in the quote for a new page.

[Akhôrahil]

On 1/25/2020 at 6:41 AM, Shiningbrow said:

Perhaps it's just me... This "we really don't care much about the sun" just seems really odd!

I like (and use) the interpretation (that does have some textual support) that Yelm is the sun disk (whom we don’t worship because he sucks), and Elmal transports the sun disk (carrying it, perhaps in his horse shape) on his back, which is a job worthy of praise and worship. That offers room for actual sun worship and heat powers, without writing Yelm out of the picture.

Edited January 26, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[White Coke]

Would Orlanthi even be able to worship Yelm if they wanted to? Dara Happans need to be descended from Yelm to worship him directly, and the Grazelanders can because they've maintained sufficient ritual purity by being Pure Horse People.

If Yelmalions can get their fire powers back from completing a Hill of Gold Heroquest, would Elmali also be able to get fire power from a Heroquest?