Elmal?

[soltakss]

3 minutes ago, White Coke said:

Would Orlanthi even be able to worship Yelm if they wanted to?

Only if they could show descent, through the male line, from Yelm.

3 minutes ago, White Coke said:

Dara Happans need to be descended from Yelm to worship him directly, and the Grazelanders can because they've maintained sufficient ritual purity by being Pure Horse People.

Also, they need to be descended from Yelm. However, that isn't a problem as Grazelanders are usually descended from Yelm.

Yelmalio is worshipped when they want a sun god like Yelm that anyone can join.

4 minutes ago, White Coke said:

If Yelmalions can get their fire powers back from completing a Hill of Gold Heroquest, would Elmali also be able to get fire power from a Heroquest?

I would say yes, but not perhaps for the reason you think.

Elmal might not have been at the Hill of Gold, or he might have been, depending on your mythology.

However, Elmali performing the Hill of Gold HeroQuest as Yelmalio gain the same benefits as Yelmalians do and have the same risks. If they win the encounter with Zorak Zoran, they gain some Fire Magic, or at least gain the ability to use Fire Magic. If they lose against Zorak Zoran, they lose all Fire Magic and the ability to use Fire Magic. I would also say that they lose the Fire/Sky rune completely.

[Richard S.]

3 minutes ago, White Coke said:

Would Orlanthi even be able to worship Yelm if they wanted to? Dara Happans need to be descended from Yelm to worship him directly, and the Grazelanders can because they've maintained sufficient ritual purity by being Pure Horse People.

If Yelmalions can get their fire powers back from completing a Hill of Gold Heroquest, would Elmali also be able to get fire power from a Heroquest?

That's a good point. Yelm also, according to the sourcebook, requires total submission of his worshippers to the priests, something that I doubt would sit well with Orlanthi.

I'd imagine so, though the Elmali may not know the Hill of Gold myth, as that's not as important to Elmal's identity as the loyal thane.

[White Coke]

Perhaps Elmali could get fire powers through a Heroquest about helping Yelm at the first Dawn? Something to do with returning the role of the sun to Yelm and rule over the world to Orlanth. In exchange they allow Elmal to exercise some of their power.

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 minutes ago, White Coke said:

Perhaps Elmali could get fire powers through a Heroquest about helping Yelm at the first Dawn? Something to do with returning the role of the sun to Yelm and rule over the world to Orlanth. In exchange they allow Elmal to exercise some of their power.

or a kind of secret subcult "order / drive Yelm Power" where elmali can learn fire spirit magic. After all what I understand is Elmal drives Yelm , doesn't he ?

 

but personaly I m ok with the official RQG (Y)Elmal(io) cult

I am not sure you need fire power when you live among people who dance naked under rain and manage wind so strongly that will extinguish your riduculous flame (you re just the little "yo", not "YELM" after all)

Your powers are elsewhere : courageous, loyal, among friends with initiative (not like alone Yelm with slaves under orders)

Last and not least, you are not the deceived husband of Ernalda (but you can become her lover) So why Elmali would like more  ? 😛

[Shiningbrow]

Can someone point me in the right direction for information about the Hyalorings in Colymar? Something with more detail than Adventurers, the Guide, and a bit on a couple of websites.

My thinking is - the Enhyli, Narri and (now) Taralang follow a line from Hyalor horsebreaker, who follows Yu-Kargzant (aka Yelm) as the Pure Horse People. Many got wiped out, and after moving became the Grazelanders.

It would make sense for the Hyaloring Triaty to have come from the Grazelanders, from a geographical perspective... However, they could also have come from the north or east... Albeit a rather long journey.

Either way, if they do actually follow Hyalor's line cleanly, they should be worshipping an aspect of Yelm, not Yelmalio.

Unless.....

[Grievous]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Can someone point me in the right direction for information about the Hyalorings in Colymar? Something with more detail than Adventurers, the Guide, and a bit on a couple of websites.

My thinking is - the Enhyli, Narri and (now) Taralang follow a line from Hyalor horsebreaker, who follows Yu-Kargzant (aka Yelm) as the Pure Horse People. Many got wiped out, and after moving became the Grazelanders.

It would make sense for the Hyaloring Triaty to have come from the Grazelanders, from a geographical perspective... However, they could also have come from the north or east... Albeit a rather long journey.

Either way, if they do actually follow Hyalor's line cleanly, they should be worshipping an aspect of Yelm, not Yelmalio.

Unless.....

Uhh well we don't know exactly, but.. the Hyaloring Triarchy came from the south, but how they got there is unclear. Nothing points to them being Pure Horse People though. They look like distant descendants of Hyalorings and Vingkotlings, ie. likely Berenethelli. So they'd have worshipped Elmal from the start and not have been subject to the curse laid on the distant Elmal worshippers (he was doomed to be forgotten in Peloria). How they'd end up in Heortland or thereabouts is a mystery, but right now a lot of this specific history is that. Equally, how Elmal worship changes as it is taken up by the Berenethelli.. and how exactly it stops among the Hyalorings.. yeah, these are questions that have no answers right now. 

That kinda leaves room for a counter-reformation, btw. A remembering of Elmal's original role. There's some Heroquesting to be done. Think of the arguments we can have on the Internet when that happens - Elmal subsuming Yelmalio (who has subsumed Elmal). Can't wait. However, it does seem like a potential campaign idea centered on the Hyaloring Triarchy, with heavy experimental Heroquesting waiting to be done...

Edited January 27, 2020 by Grievous

[Shiningbrow]

5 minutes ago, Grievous said:

Uhh well we don't know exactly, but.. the Hyaloring Triarchy came from the south, but how they got there is unclear. Nothing points to them being Pure Horse People though. They look like distant descendants of Hyalorings and Vingkotlings, ie. likely Berenethelli. So they'd have worshipped Elmal from the start and not have been subject to the curse laid on the distant Elmal worshippers (he was doomed to be forgotten in Peloria). How they'd end up in Heortland or thereabouts is a mystery, but right now a lot of this specific history is that. Equally, how Elmal worship changes as it is taken up by the Berenethelli.. and how exactly it stops among the Hyalorings.. yeah, these are questions that have no answers right now. 

Thanks.

Do you have references for this? 

What I've read only slightly suggests an Orlanthi beginning (from the south). But like a lot of the history, the *specifics* are left out (same with RW history).

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Can someone point me in the right direction for information about the Hyalorings in Colymar? Something with more detail than Adventurers, the Guide, and a bit on a couple of websites.

My own opinion is that they were Pure Horse People who ended up among the Hendriki in the Imperial Age.  Seeking ancestors to make themselves acceptable to their new neighbours, they took up the worship of Beren and al.  Thus at the start of the human resettlement, they were thoroughly accultured Orlanthi with a funny history.

Other interpretations are possible and routes are possible, mind you.

[Jeff]

51 minutes ago, metcalph said:

My own opinion is that they were Pure Horse People who ended up among the Hendriki in the Imperial Age.  Seeking ancestors to make themselves acceptable to their new neighbours, they took up the worship of Beren and al.  Thus at the start of the human resettlement, they were thoroughly accultured Orlanthi with a funny history.

Other interpretations are possible and routes are possible, mind you.

They were originally detailed by Greg as "Hyaloring Triarchy - three pony clans. Enyhli are the Yelmalio clan. Join Colymar c 1410."

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

Uhh well we don't know exactly, but.. the Hyaloring Triarchy came from the south, but how they got there is unclear.

Probably west of the Starfire ridges, through Volsaxi and Kitori lands. I expect the Runegate triaty to have been in place when Lismelder split the Malani tribe and entered the area west of the Starfire Ridges adjacent to the Upland Marsh (which may have been significantly smaller then).

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

Nothing points to them being Pure Horse People though.

All evidence points against them having been Pure Horse People in the last two millennia (since the Silver Age), or against them leading a nomadic lifestyle at any point in that time. Nomadic horse herding may have been a viable alternative to sitting out the ravages of the Darkness in fortifications, but the Dawn Settlement list suggests that the two rider tribes of the Heortlings had sat the worst of the Darkness out in fortified villages like the rest of the Heortlings.

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

They look like distant descendants of Hyalorings and Vingkotlings, ie. likely Berenethelli.

I would give them a greater chance to be descendants of the Orgovaltes, who had Ulanin the Rider as their Hyaloring ancestor. Shorter migration distance southwards (possibly as horse archer mercenaries for Palangio's phalangites, moving into the possibly when the Orgovaltes tribe was discontinued shortly after the Gbaji Wars, possibly when the dragonfriends came to dominate the Council of Orlanthland, possibly as a reaction to the famine of 1042 and 1043, possibly fleeing from the Pelorians 1118 or so).

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

So they'd have worshipped Elmal from the start and not have been subject to the curse laid on the distant Elmal worshippers (he was doomed to be forgotten in Peloria). How they'd end up in Heortland or thereabouts is a mystery, but right now a lot of this specific history is that. 

If they are descended from the Orgovaltes, possibly as early as the second or third century of Time, as the Orgovaltes expanded and possibly replaced Garanvuli settlements. The Hendriki were formed from remnants of the Garanvuli, but at that time non-Garanvuli already had moved into the Marzeel valley and the Heortland plateau. There may well have been clans or minor tribes formerly of the Orgovaltes among the newly-founded Hendriki.

Alternatively, they could have come in the wake of Palangio. Worshipping Elmal rather than Daysenerus, offering light horse auxilary to Palangio's hoplites.

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

Equally, how Elmal worship changes as it is taken up by the Berenethelli.. and how exactly it stops among the Hyalorings.. yeah, these are questions that have no answers right now. 

The Berennethtelli start with Elmal as one of their ancestral deities, and a similar assumption goes for the Orgovaltes. We don't know how exactly worship or dedication to a deity inside the pantheon worked in Vingkotling times. There would have been sacrifices of beasts and personal magic, but whether or how there was any cult structure is unknown. Ulanin ends up as a hero cult of Orlanth, much like Heort, but needn't have been anything like an initiate of Orlanth (like Heort wasn't either). The Orlanthi initiation pattern appears to start with the Heortlings, introduced by Hantrafal.

Worship of divine ancestors (often just a few generations ago) and living heroes may have been the main religious activity of the Vingkotlings. The sacrifices may well have been received in person, much like a visiting king gets hosted in the manor/longhouse/whatever set aside for use of the tribe (or usually used as clan assembly).

1 hour ago, Grievous said:

That kinda leaves room for a counter-reformation, btw. A remembering of Elmal's original role. There's some Heroquesting to be done. Think of the arguments we can have on the Internet when that happens - Elmal subsuming Yelmalio (who has subsumed Elmal). Can't wait. However, it does seem like a potential campaign idea centered on the Hyaloring Triarchy, with heavy experimental Heroquesting waiting to be done...

I don't expect much (if any) Yelmalio presence in Runegate, or the Colymar hinterland. Those who were inclined to follow Yelmalio would have left for Vanntar, to live the life of thanes rather than lowly carls or weaponthanes. Monrogh's offer of a basic income with tenants was a very strong honey trap, similar to the stipend that the early converts to Islam received under the first few Caliphs (all converts were expected to give military service while able-bodied, so this was more like a soldier's salary than a stipend, turning into a pension at old age).

[Darius West]

On 1/26/2020 at 10:42 AM, White Coke said:

Are there going to be separate cult rules for Antirius and Kargzant?

Well, don't you think it would be a good idea to quantify what makes them the same and what makes them different?

[Darius West]

On 1/26/2020 at 12:36 AM, kr0p0s said:

Hey! What? Thanatar?

You heard right.  Ever wonder why Yelmalios like to use gold coins?  It's because their silver ones tarnish.  It can all be traced back to the Krjalki elves, who followed a Yelmalion heroquest where their version of Yelmalio always chooses to succumb to chaos, and changes...  Yelmalios are an ambitious lot... always trying to get a head.

[Darius West]

On 1/26/2020 at 12:42 AM, jajagappa said:

There is a long history of Yelmalion Sun Domes in Saird. That's their origin point. They produced the soldiers who died in the Dragonkill, and most indications are that they produced Balazar as well. The temples survived the Dragonkill (north of the Death Line), and were still the heart of the Yelmalio cult. Monrogh simply brought back the cult worship, practice, and rites from these temples to Sartar.

I completely agree with this.  In the meantime however, the indigenous Heortland version of Yelmalio was very different to that of Saird, having been split off for the duration of the Line of Death at least, and probably longer.  This is in contrast with the Sun County Yelmalios, who were obviously of a more Sairdite persuasion.  On the other hand, Monrogh only happened about 44 years ago in Glorantha.  Prior to that Elmal was a separate entity, and while Harvar Ironfist has worked hard to force Elmal tribes to become Yelmalios, there are still hold-outs, much like in any period of colonial oppression.  Elmal is culturally distinct, and while one can choose to convert to Yelmalio,  there is good reason not to. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Darius West

[Jeff]

12 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I completely agree with this.  In the meantime however, the indigenous Heortland version of Yelmalio was very different to that of Saird, having been split off for the duration of the Line of Death at least, and probably longer.  This is in contrast with the Sun County Yelmalios, who were obviously of a more Sairdite persuasion.  On the other hand, Monrogh only happened about 44 years ago in Glorantha.  Prior to that Elmal was a separate entity, and while Harvar Ironfist has worked hard to force Elmal tribes to become Yelmalios, there are still hold-outs, much like in any period of colonial oppression.  Elmal is culturally distinct, and while one can choose to convert to Yelmalio,  there is good reason not to. 

Harvar didn't have to work very hard, since the Tarshite settlers knew Yelmalio Golden Spear, and not the Hendriki Elmal.

But do you have the same degree of concern whether Orlanth Adventurous is the same god as Orlanth Thunderous? Or whether Zeus is Jupiter?

[Tindalos]

25 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Harvar didn't have to work very hard, since the Tarshite settlers knew Yelmalio Golden Spear, and not the Hendriki Elmal.

But do you have the same degree of concern whether Orlanth Adventurous is the same god as Orlanth Thunderous? Or whether Zeus is Jupiter?

In some places, yes. Like whether Mercury is Wotan, or Thunderbird is Little Brother.

[Darius West]

39 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Harvar didn't have to work very hard, since the Tarshite settlers knew Yelmalio Golden Spear, and not the Hendriki Elmal.

But do you have the same degree of concern whether Orlanth Adventurous is the same god as Orlanth Thunderous? Or whether Zeus is Jupiter?

I would say that these aspects are very divergent.  They can't even access many of the same spells.  As to Zeus and Jupiter, there are huge differences.  In fact there were huge inconsistencies in how Zeus was worshipped.  For example not many people talk about Lycaean Zeus, i.e. Zeus the Werewolf as worshipped by the Neuri, was not at all similar to how Zeus was worshipped in other places.  Regional variation was and is important.

Also, if you look up the Vantaros clan, one thing that comes across loud and clear is that they have banned Elmal worship.  Now if there was no Elmal worship that wouldn't be necessary would it?  Clearly there was Elmal worship that Harvar felt he needed to suppress.  I think the Tarshites didn't have many Yelmalio worshippers in their ranks at all, and the ones who did exist were subsumed into Elmal worship voluntarily for want of a shrine.  Monrogh's schism only happened 44 years ago for Sartarites, and it was likely a Lunar plot to sow disunity in the Kingdom.

I would also point out that Elmal even has distinct spirits of retribution, including the Yoskati and Reflartings.  Yelmalio only has Monrogh as its spirit of retribution.  It is also worth pointing out that Elmal's runes  are fire and truth, while Yelmalio's runes are light and truth.  Ergo, Elmal has intact fire powers.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Darius West

[Tindalos]

12 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I would also point out that Elmal even has distinct spirits of retribution, including the Yoskati and Reflartings.  Yelmalio only has Monrogh as its spirit of retribution.  It is also worth pointing out that Elmal's runes  are fire and truth, while Yelmalio's runes are light and truth.  Ergo, Elmal has intact fire powers.

That's something that's changed explicitly, spirits of retribution can change equally (Yelmalio obviously wouldn't have Monrogh in places untouched by the Monrogh doctrine), the Yoskati and Reflartings may belong to many different cults.

[Joerg]

17 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I would say that these aspects are very divergent.  They can't even access many of the same spells. 

Thunderous, Adventurous and Rex? Yes. Same god, very different cults, although rather easy to progress in between.

17 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Regional variation was and is important.

Like the prevalence of horse archers among the Templars. None in Prax or Balazar, plenty elsewhere.

 

17 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Also, if you look up the Vantaros clan, one thing that comes across loud and clear is that they have banned Elmal worship.  Now if there was no Elmal worship that wouldn't be necessary would it? 

I was surprised to see Elmal mentioned for the Far Place. Shouldn't have been there. I regard the article in WF15 as wrong in that aspect.

 

17 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Clearly there was Elmal worship that Harvar felt he needed to suppress. 

IMO there were differences among the Yelmalians. Harvar harbored dissidents who had fled from Vanntar, and it is possible that others who would subscribe to Vanntar's ways may have been troublesome.

 

17 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I think the Tarshites didn't have many Yelmalio worshippers in their ranks at all, and the ones who did exist were subsumed into Elmal worship voluntarily for want of a shrine.  Monrogh's schism only happened 44 years ago for Sartarites, and it was likely a Lunar plot to sow disunity in the Kingdom.

Monrogh's schism was brewing since 1540 or so, and when Tarkalor helped establish Monrogh in Vanntar about 70 years ago (give or take a few years) Monrogh also had a temple hierarchy to back him up.

I had the information that the Tarshite-speaking tribes in Sartar worship Yelmalio rather than Elmal in the mid-nineties when I wrote the cattle-raid/dragonewt encounter scenario for Free INT, directly from Greg.

 

17 minutes ago, Darius West said:

 It is also worth pointing out that Elmal's runes  are fire and truth, while Yelmalio's runes are light and truth.  Ergo, Elmal has intact fire powers.

Citing the Guide would have given this a bit more canonicity (p.152) than the wikia.

The runes assigned in RQG are selected from a more reduced subset of runes than those in the Guide or HQG. There are differences.

One difference is that in RQG, Yelmalio gets the Fire Rune, too, as no character has any elemental sub-runes like Cold or Light.

 

[Tindalos]

2 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I was surprised to see Elmal mentioned for the Far Place. Shouldn't have been there. I regard the article in WF15 as wrong in that aspect.

I dunno, I don't see why it would be a problem during the resettlement era?

 

On the subject of Yelmalio, I find it interesting that both Sun Counties in RQG are described as theocracies. Given priest-kings are the norm for much of Glorantha, how do their theocracies differ so much as to be notable?

[Grievous]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Also, if you look up the Vantaros clan, one thing that comes across loud and clear is that they have banned Elmal worship.  Now if there was no Elmal worship that wouldn't be necessary would it?  Clearly there was Elmal worship that Harvar felt he needed to suppress.  I think the Tarshites didn't have many Yelmalio worshippers in their ranks at all, and the ones who did exist were subsumed into Elmal worship voluntarily for want of a shrine.  Monrogh's schism only happened 44 years ago for Sartarites, and it was likely a Lunar plot to sow disunity in the Kingdom.

What I find curious is how did the Tarshites come to worship Elmal at all? They arrived with knowledge of Yelmalio, but they didn't settle in areas where the sourthern Elmal was an influence. There must have been some proselytizing of some type going on to make that switch happen. Or more generally, why did Yelmalio mostly disappear in northern Dragon Pass (or well, did he)?

This is relevant also to the issue concerning the Dinacoli - and really the Coming Storm/Eleven Lights more generally. Which also raises the question whether I should retcon some of the Elmali present in the the Coming Storm/11 Lights into Yelmalions for my Glorantha to be more in line what is current RQG canon. But I wonder how does tribal worship of Yelmalio even look outside of Vanntar? It at least feels like it'd quite easily be more pro-Lunar. 

Also, what exactly is the reasoning behind Elmal worshippers giving the Sartarites trouble (before Monrogh's reformation)? I find that somewhat vague, but curious! Any ideas?

Edited January 27, 2020 by Grievous

[Grievous]

6 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Thanks.

Do you have references for this? 

What I've read only slightly suggests an Orlanthi beginning (from the south). But like a lot of the history, the *specifics* are left out (same with RW history).

References to which parts? That's me incorporating (or attempting to incorporate) Six Ages lore into what I know about the Triarchy.

[Tindalos]

3 minutes ago, Grievous said:

Also, what exactly is the reasoning behind Elmal worshippers giving the Sartarites trouble (before Monrogh's reformation)? I find that somewhat vague, but curious! Any ideas?

Some Elmali clans had adopted lowlander ways, using Lodrili ploughs rather than Bantar's, etc. They probably started envying the Solars from the north, despite being unable to join Yelm's cult. It really came to a head when one clan were rebelling against their king, and went so far as to worship a foreign god to gain access to the Sunspear magic.

[Shawn Carpenter]

You're all missing the real question: Can more Elmal or Yelmalio spirits dance on the head of a pin? And which spirits have the hottest dance moves?

[Tindalos]

5 minutes ago, Shawn Carpenter said:

You're all missing the real question: Can more Elmal or Yelmalio spirits dance on the head of a pin? And which spirits have the hottest dance moves?

Neither, because they're all too cool for that.

[Akhôrahil]

16 minutes ago, Shawn Carpenter said:

You're all missing the real question: Can more Elmal or Yelmalio spirits dance on the head of a pin?

Yelmalio spirits wouldn't do something as impure and sinful as dancing. There's a high risk that someone might enjoy themselves!

Edited January 27, 2020 by Akhôrahil