Elmal?

[NewMars]

I mean, yes, it can very much be part of a greater myth. If you're willing to go and say that there's only one real way it happened and it was this one. Thinking that two different myths might have some kind of similar root isn't bad: but thinking that them being different means nothing, or that one of them is more "accurate" than the other is really missing the wood for the trees there. The kind of thing that, say, could lead to switching two nearly-identical goddesses around and then wondering why nothing grows anymore.

Mind you, that sort of sickly light is right, there. But that ignores that every other time his light comes up, it is described as a burning, hot thing. Not to mention repeated references to him being a torchbearer.

[Tindalos]

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

Come on guys, this is what the Guide actually says:

On page 37 Elmal is listed among "Minor Gods" as "Elmal the Sun God." 

On page 152, Elmal is listed in the Storm Pantheon as Elmal the Sun God with the runes of Fire and Truth. That's a typo - should be Light and Truth. There's a few other errors in that chapter about the Runes for specific gods, all of which are corrected in the Cults Book.

Page 160, Elmal is described as "a horse carrying the Sun on his back." Note that the Sun is not Elmal.

Page 188, Runegate is described as having a temple to Elmal the Sun God and Hyalor Horsebreaker. That's true.

Page 236, illustration has Elmal the Sun Stallion pulling Orlanth and Ernalda's chariot. That's an in-Gloranthan piece of art, possibly dating to the First Age.

Before you all argue with me about this, I wrote all of this. None of that contradicts what all I have been saying (except the typo on page 152). Gloranthans themselves do not make these sorts of Talmudic distinction. Elmal may well remain an artistic feature (the Sun Stallion) - even though his actual cult now identifies him as Yelmalio. The Orlanthi call the Sun Disk "Yelm" but recognise numerous minor sun gods  (Elmal, Yelmalio, Yamsur, Sun Hawk, etc.). Elmal's cult is now largely subsumed into Yelmalio's AND that has been the case since Greg wrote his "Making Gods" essay (which I advise reading carefully).

You did miss out page 646 as well. Where it mentions Orlanthi call the sun disk Yelm, similar to the Sourcebook where he's again mentioned as the sun disk on page 100.

The sourcebook also has the nice bit about Orlanth naming Elmal to rule the world while Orlanth was on the LBQ on page 117, and yeah it also mentions Yelmalio eclipsing Elmal in Dragon Pass over the page. Which if this is also part of Yelmalio's mythos is a really interesting one.

Also, the mention of Elmal being among minor gods, without context, may create a bad impression about what minor gods means in that context. Other minor gods mentioned on page 37 of the guide include Chalanna Arroy, Eurmal, Maran Gor, and Storm Bull.

Making Gods didn't give the impression that the Elmal cult was destroyed, it describes his first converts coming from the Elmal worshippers who wanted to join the new solar religion, and about him being chosen as leader by half the Pavic tribes.

One implication I have seen with regard to Yelmalio is the decreasing of importance when it comes to the sun, and them being more associated with the Lightfore. If this is an erroneous inference, I'm very glad about that. It would be a shame for the Orlanthi to lose two suns.

[Godweyn]

32 minutes ago, NewMars said:

Not to mention repeated references to him being a torchbearer.

that’s the same that being the horse that carry the sun, not the sun itself, in the myth Orlanth bring the torch from the underworld and give it to Elmal so he can bring light to the world again, the torch is Yelm.
In my mortal understanding Elmal is not the sun, but is the one in charge of it.

[Jeff]

More to the point, the Book of Heortling Mythology was the collection of every Orlanthi myth Greg and I could find and put together as a reference document SO WE COULD SIFT THROUGH IT. Like all of the Unfinished Works, it is not intended to canon or definitive - it is a work in progress, a notebook. It was certainly not intended to be a straightjacket for us and to be honest, I don't even recommend writers use it as a resource (as better resources now exist). 

Greg was always deeply ambivalent about publishing these unfinished works. I thought it was a good idea to give people access to these notebooks, as I figured they'd use them as a well of ideas, some of which may well get contradicted by finished publications. 

[Shawn Carpenter]

1 hour ago, prinz.slasar said:

I don't like the 100 different sungods and variations of Yelmalio.

I hear you, but I disagree. I like the fact that the farther my character gets from their homestead the more likely they are to encounter different, unfamiliar versions of the gods. In fact, this is what initially drew me into Glorantha. It was the first fantasy game setting I'd encountered that didn't revolve around a monolithic monomyth. It recognized and encouraged the idea that different truths aren't mutually exclusive, they're just different. 

I hate the idea of world spanning, canonical representations of any of Glorantha's gods, heroes, or myths. It is counter to my understanding of Glorantha's cosmology and replaces much of the joy and wonder of the world with dull orthodoxy.

Sure, homogenizing the Gloranthan mythos might make the world slightly easier for newly minted GRQ players to access, but is that worth the loss of some of the world's mysterious mythic conflictions? I don't think so.

Still, at the end of the day, it all comes down to YGWV and MGF. I don't care for the new treatment of Elmal and retrofitting my campaign to reflect it wouldn't be fun for my players or me, so I choose to ignore pale, official Elmal in favor of a steadfast old friend. 

[Lordabdul]

5 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Humakt, Maran  and other fanatical and very dedicated cults need to understand a lot of lore to be well played (except if you play only with the dice not the lore, your pleasure may vary)

So the only two options are "play by the dice" or "play by the 40 years of published canon lore"? Nah, I'm very much OK with pitching a cult to a player and if it somehow resonates with them, they can play however they want within the broad boundaries. There are enough "balances and checks" in place in the form of Runes and Passions to keep them in the archetype... and for the rest, isn't collaborative worldbuilding the whole philosophy here? There's no "one right way" to play any cult IMHO.

2 hours ago, prinz.slasar said:

I would just like to say that I like what Jeff is doing with Elmal. I don't like the 100 different sungods and variations of Yelmalio.

Gotta agree with that. When I first read RQG (while knowing only a little about Glorantha) I was a bit confused as to why we have both Yelm and Yelmalio in there, as I thought that was a bit redundant (compared to the other deities who don't have that much overlap). And then I realized it's not even Yelm, it's really Yu-Kargzant, and then I learned about more sun-related crazyness, and now I'm thinking "why are we doing this to ourselves?". There's no such thing happening with water or earth or any other deities and cults. Arguably it's because the Earth Goddesses are the only grown ups in the pantheon and can figure things out between themselves, and because sun-god worshippers are, for the most part, all crazy alpha-males who keep fighting each other (in which case, forget the myths, the worshippers are just going with whatever the victors tell them). So anyway, yes, less moving parts are good -- Glorantha is already all moving parts all the way down.

33 minutes ago, Shawn Carpenter said:

hear you, but I disagree. I like the fact that the farther my character gets from their homestead the more likely they are to encounter different, unfamiliar versions of the gods.

I get your point and I agree, but for me this is not the situation here: if you go by HQ-era canon you have no less than 4 different sun deities with active worship in or next to Sartar. Not a lot of travel needed. Compare that to how much travel is needed to find a different Earth Goddess.

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

That's a typo - should be Light and Truth.

Speaking of, is there an errata for the Guide to Glorantha?

Also, I had never realized there was a Light Rune, separate from the Fire/Sky Rune. It's surprising to me that it's a Condition Rune, too -- I would have considered it a (lesser?) Element Rune.

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by lordabdul

[Richard S.]

3 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Also, I had never realized there was a Light Rune, separate from the Fire/Sky Rune. It's surprising to me that it's a Condition Rune, too -- I would have considered it a (lesser?) Element Rune.

Where are you reading that it's a condition? AFAIK it's always been interpreted as a heatless subelement of sky/fire.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

So the only two options are "play by the dice" or "play by the 40 years of published canon lore"? Nah, I'm very much OK with pitching a cult to a player and if it somehow resonates with them, they can play however they want within the broad boundaries. There are enough "balances and checks" in place in the form of Runes and Passions to keep them in the archetype... and for the rest, isn't collaborative worldbuilding the whole philosophy here? There's no "one right way" to play any cult IMHO.

Gotta agree with that. When I first read RQG (while knowing only a little about Glorantha) I was a bit confused as to why we have both Yelm and Yelmalio in there, as I thought that was a bit redundant (compared to the other deities who don't have that much overlap). And then I realized it's not even Yelm, it's really Yu-Kargzant, and then I learned about more sun-related crazyness, and now I'm thinking "why are we doing this to ourselves?". There's no such thing happening with water or earth or any other deities and cults. Arguably it's because the Earth Goddesses are the only grown ups in the pantheon and can figure things out between themselves, and because sun-god worshippers are, for the most part, all crazy alpha-males who keep fighting each other (in which case, forget the myths, the worshippers are just going with whatever the victors tell them). So anyway, yes, less moving parts are good -- Glorantha is already all moving parts all the way down.

I get your point and I agree, but for me this is not the situation here: if you go by HQ-era canon you have no less than 4 different sun deities with active worship in Sartar. Not a lot of travel needed. Compare that to how much travel is needed to find a different Earth Goddess.

Speaking of, is there an errata for the Guide to Glorantha?

Also, I had never realized there was a Light Rune, separate from the Fire/Sky Rune. It's surprising to me that it's a Condition Rune, too -- I would have considered it a (lesser?) Element Rune.

 

Different Earth goddess in Sartar? There's Ernalda, Esrola, Kero Fin, sometimes Pelora, Maran Gor (who is the twin of Ernalda and sometimes conflated). Go a little further and you start getting Dendara, Pelora-Oria, and not to mention Deezola and Hon-eel. Try to tell me where Ernalda ends and Esrola or Pelora begins. Or where Ernalda is Dendara, and where she is not.

The most consolidated cult is probably Orlanth, and even he has Humakt and Storm Bull circling around, not to mention Ygg if you go far enough out. And that you can probably blame on Harmast, Arkat, and Alakoring.

[Martin]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

More to the point, the Book of Heortling Mythology was the collection of every Orlanthi myth Greg and I could find and put together as a reference document SO WE COULD SIFT THROUGH IT. Like all of the Unfinished Works, it is not intended to canon or definitive - it is a work in progress, a notebook. It was certainly not intended to be a straightjacket for us and to be honest, I don't even recommend writers use it as a resource (as better resources now exist). 

Greg was always deeply ambivalent about publishing these unfinished works. I thought it was a good idea to give people access to these notebooks, as I figured they'd use them as a well of ideas, some of which may well get contradicted by finished publications. 

I would like to  support this postion  100%, when Greg  asked me to collate the existing Orlanthi myths and also flesh out  some others or write new ones that "fitted" it  was one of the things he stressed to me, that it was not intended to ever  be a final or definitive version more an exploratory tool  

Edited January 24, 2020 by Martin

[Eff]

1 minute ago, Richard S. said:

Where are you reading that it's a condition? AFAIK it's always been interpreted as a heatless subelement of sky/fire.

It appears on the Condition Rune tree of life diagram in the Guide, but so does Moon. (And the sub-elemental Runes don't appear on Zzabur's Sigil, either.)

[Martin]

FWIW i feel that some of those who struggle with the whole Yelmalio-Elmal-Yelm issue (or indeed with other Gloranthan myths) is that they have a  fundamental and deep seated  misunderstanding of Mythology...it is never intended to be an objective  world view  in either an ontological or epistemolgoical fashion.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Martin

[Akhôrahil]

11 minutes ago, Martin said:

FWIW i feel that some of those who struggle with the whole Yelmalio-Elmal-Yelm issue (or indeed with other Gloranthan myths) is that they have a  fundamental and deep seated  misunderstanding of Mythology...it is never intended to be an objective  world view  in either an ontological or epistemolgoical fashion.

Classing him as a subcult to Yelmalio in the actual rules is making such an objective determination, though. This is one reason I dislike it. It's now an objective fact of the world that Elmal is just Yelmalio.

It would be different if it was just "instead of printing Elmal on his own, just use Yelmalio with these changes" for initiates (I handle Uralda as variant-Eiritha for now, for instance, in the absence of a write-up). 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Martin]

17 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Classing him as a subcult to Yelmalio in the actual rules is making such an objective determination, though. This is one reason I dislike it. It's now an objective fact of the world that Elmal is just Yelmalio.

It would be different if it was just "instead of printing Elmal on his own, just use Yelmalio with these changes" for initiates (I handle Uralda as variant-Eiritha for now, for instance, in the absence of a write-up). 

This demonstrates the point I was making...yes in the "rules" (which are just  a way for us to explore  and game in Glorantha) you call  it an "Objective fact" (whatever that actually  means  and with   what ramifcations in a  game) Dont forget the people in Glorantha  dont  read  the RQG  rule book...they expereince Glorantha and its enitities through  their  lives with their (often non-linear, non-sequential, or indeed contradictory)  experiences and understandings. 

 

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by Martin

[Lordabdul]

26 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Different Earth goddess in Sartar? There's Ernalda, Esrola, Kero Fin, sometimes Pelora, Maran Gor (who is the twin of Ernalda and sometimes conflated). Go a little further and you start getting Dendara, Pelora-Oria, and not to mention Deezola and Hon-eel. Try to tell me where Ernalda ends and Esrola or Pelora begins. Or where Ernalda is Dendara, and where she is not.

To be clear, I was talking from an RQG gameplay point of view. My point is that it doesn't "bleed" much into the core rulebook and gameplay -- someone wants to play an Earth Priestess, they take Ernalda in RQG, even if they're picking Esrolia as their homeland, for instance. It keeps things simple for first-time players. It's a good thing. Of course I assume the upcoming Cults book is going to make all those other cults as available to the players, but that's OK since it's a big splatbook and that's what it's there for.

27 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It's now an objective fact of the world that Elmal is just Yelmalio.

....or that the Elmal cult has been absorbed by the Yelmalio cult politically and culturally speaking, which is apparently what happened.

[Richard S.]

Technically speaking Yelmalio is no more legitimate a name than Elmal or Antirius or Kargzant. They're all just different approaches towards the same thing: Lightfore.

[dumuzid]

6 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Technically speaking Yelmalio is no more legitimate a name than Elmal or Antirius or Kargzant. They're all just different approaches towards the same thing: Lightfore.

Rankest God Learnerism!  Kargzant is the only true sun!

[Prinz Slasar]

1 hour ago, Martin said:

FWIW i feel that some of those who struggle with the whole Yelmalio-Elmal-Yelm issue (or indeed with other Gloranthan myths) is that they have a  fundamental and deep seated  misunderstanding of Mythology...it is never intended to be an objective  world view  in either an ontological or epistemolgoical fashion.

I'm a person with a scientific background in philosophy [and mythology] and my own writings and settings all are deep into mythological things.

For me, RQG is an RPG in a fantasy world. Straight and simple.

Don't judge people only by their opinions on a commercial Fantasy RPG.

 

Edited January 24, 2020 by prinz.slasar

[Richard S.]

54 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Rankest God Learnerism!  Kargzant is the only true sun!

Viva la Ehilm, all your suns are the same! I'll God Learner who and what I please you ignorant barbarians!

[Richard S.]

Even if it's not really canon, Elmal Guards the Stead has got me thinking. We know that, for a little bit, probably directly after the dawn before they had met the Pelorians, Elmal was the primary sun god of the Heortlings. Perhaps back then he had some disease fighting powers similar to Yelm's, won from the foes he fought while guarding the stead, and after Yelm was encountered and identified as the sun those powers were gradually forgotten and the myth changed to emphasize Elmal as Loyal Thane. I'm tempted to give a "secret" association between Yelm and Elmal that grants Fight Disease, perhaps requiring some unorthodox questing through that myth. Not sure if I'd allow the same opportunity to Yelmalions though.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Richard S.

[Richard S.]

Hm. If you had an Elmali, a Yelmalion, a Kargzanti, and an Antirian all together, what would they think of each other? I'd imagine the Yelmalion would either try to convince them they really worshiped Yelmalio or just be quietly assured of it himself, but how would the others feel about worshippers of the other forms of Lightfore?

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, lordabdul said:

So the only two options are "play by the dice" or "play by the 40 years of published canon lore"? Nah, I'm very much OK with pitching a cult to a player and if it somehow resonates with them, they can play however they want within the broad boundaries. There are enough "balances and checks" in place in the form of Runes and Passions to keep them in the archetype... and for the rest, isn't collaborative worldbuilding the whole philosophy here? There's no "one right way" to play any cult IMHO.

 

I said only "play by dice" or "invest time to understand more", yes passion / rune helps, but you need to know a little bit. I fully agree of collaborative worldbuilding is the best way.

All depends on the "new". Is he/she able to wait for your explanation some time or not.

My view is,

- if you have players who want to start quickly, start with average local guys (sartarite = ernalda / orlanth, praxian, well there is not a lot of choice, etc...) and visit their local world in one or two scenarii (fest /cult / delegate mission / ...) to meet each "archetype" describe attitude and see what they like for them. Then create the true pc

- if you have more patient / literacy / autonomous players, propose them to read extract of RQG / gagogagogu /

- if you have more patient / hearer players propose a session of "discovery"

As player, I prefer to read on my side, then discuss with GM. As GM it depends on the players and their wish. If it is clear and archetypal, let start with the cult I (GM) think is good (or few choices with explanation). If not, let discover the world (local, don't care kralori, western, etc at the beginning) by the way the GM and the players are comfortable

 

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I said only "play by dice" or "invest time to understand more", yes passion / rune helps, but you need to know a little bit. I fully agree of collaborative worldbuilding is the best way.

All depends on the "new". Is he/she able to wait for your explanation some time or not.

My view is,

- if you have players who want to start quickly, start with average local guys (sartarite = ernalda / orlanth, praxian, well there is not a lot of choice, etc...) and visit their local world in one or two scenarii (fest /cult / delegate mission / ...) to meet each "archetype" describe attitude and see what they like for them. Then create the true pc

- if you have more patient / literacy / autonomous players, propose them to read extract of RQG / gagogagogu /

- if you have more patient / hearer players propose a session of "discovery"

As player, I prefer to read on my side, then discuss with GM. As GM it depends on the players and their wish. If it is clear and archetypal, let start with the cult I (GM) think is good (or few choices with explanation). If not, let discover the world (local, don't care kralori, western, etc at the beginning) by the way the GM and the players are comfortable

 

Is there a good scenario or 3 in which new players are slowly introduced to various cults, in a way which is clearly described for GMs (and players) new to Glorantha can find relatable? Like a Biturian Varosh campaign... 

But one that *doesn't* require a lot of knowledge about the cults. The ones I've seen require a lot of presumed knowledge...

I'm guessing they're out there, but I don't recall reading any.

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, Richard S. said:

After being up in the mountains, I think I understand why Y/Elmal/io was worshiped more for light than heat. Even with the sun out it can be pretty cold up there, Yelm 's heat doesn't make a huge difference. The light is pretty useful for not falling off stuff though.

That's actually a good argument, and should have been up front and centre.

Although, my understanding is that a lot of Sartar, Holy Country and surroundings aren't that high up...

 

 

Perhaps it's just me... This "we really don't care much about the sun" just seems really odd! If Elmal was left alone as the sun, (even as a sub-cult in a Yelmic monomyth), perhaps losing *some* of his Fire powers, it would all makes sense. 

If Orlanth chained the sun, and it therefore does as he commands, it also works... 

Ignoring, laughing at, pitying the god that you actually rely on, and enjoy being out in - doesn't.

I know Glorantha isn't real, and thus RW logic doesn't apply, but I kinda figured that humans are pretty much humans... is there a RW example where people anthropomorphised a natural phenomenon that they need to survive into a god that they shun?

 

[Shiningbrow]

15 hours ago, Richard S. said:

 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Shiningbrow
Double Post

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

 is there a RW example where people anthropomorphised a natural phenomenon that they need to survive into a god that they shun?

 

natural desire = lucifer ?