Elmal?

[scott-martin]

9 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

What I don't get is why that big thing in the sky that provides heat, warmth, crops, livelihood, enjoyment, etc is not worshipped by the Orlanthi, who so clearly rely on it's powers for survival. Apparently, not even in a propitiary way.

Even children know the big guy is responsible for life as we know it. We greet the sun when it returns every morning when he's young and generous. But one of the central characteristics of Storm Rune is that we can separate our enjoyment of his largesse from any sort of respect or worship. We can take the guy's money but nobody can tell us to like him. Some of us do like him . . . maybe we hope he'll do it differently today, learn from his mistakes and do better this time. He never does. The fixed path is his nature. It's up to us to learn from our mistakes, make the tough calls and do better. If he won't save us, we have to save him. That's no incentive for worship. If anything, we pity the sun more than we propitiate. That asshole tries to buy a world of friends and that's how the world works. 

What does another husband-protector offer Esrolia to justify his seat at the uh table? That's up to her to say and her answers change with the circumstances. But usually what I see is that she simply loves having options. More options give her more routes to ultimately getting what she wants. Fire, wind, rain, dark, another dark, another fire, another wind, whatever. Keep the suitors guessing. Maybe there's a true love coming back by sea, maybe not.

I don't know if Belintar played that role, by the way.

[Eff]

The real grenade to throw into any Elmal discussion would be to revive Voudisea the Lance Goddess from the Heroquest 1 Esrolia homeland. (Prospective Rune Magic: Lance, Lance 2, Automatically Catch Replacement Lances Tossed At You, Taunt Seshnegi?) 

[Richard S.]

11 minutes ago, Eff said:

Taunt Seshnegi

Finally, some useful magic!

[NewMars]

Wait, without his fire powers, how does any part of Elmal Guards the Stead make sense? Half of that myth is specifically about the power of flame. When the stead is assaulted, it is by chaos creatures that represent disease: first is the eater of skin, which makes abscesses and bleeding wounds open on the skin. Second is the Author of sores, which causes wounds to fester and last is the maker of bad growth, which causes one's insides to multiply endlessly (i. e. tumours).

Elmal slays them all with fire in different ways, either through a burning spear or using the sun to turn them to ash and that's important. I mean, a myth isn't just a thing the gods did, but it illuminates something, namely it tells how one can fight disease through the use of flame to cauterise and purify. But without fire, none of that part makes any sense, both from telling what Elmal does/can do and from telling us that Orlanthi know flame can fight the Chaos of disease. So what is up with that, now?

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, NewMars said:

Wait, without his fire powers, how does any part of Elmal Guards the Stead make sense? Half of that myth is specifically about the power of flame. When the stead is assaulted, it is by chaos creatures that represent disease: first is the eater of skin, which makes abscesses and bleeding wounds open on the skin. Second is the Author of sores, which causes wounds to fester and last is the maker of bad growth, which causes one's insides to multiply endlessly (i. e. tumours).

Elmal slays them all with fire in different ways, either through a burning spear or using the sun to turn them to ash and that's important. I mean, a myth isn't just a thing the gods did, but it illuminates something, namely it tells how one can fight disease through the use of flame to cauterise and purify. But without fire, none of that part makes any sense, both from telling what Elmal does/can do and from telling us that Orlanthi know flame can fight the Chaos of disease. So what is up with that, now?

This leads into another question: are KoDP and 6A even considered canon? I know many of us use and reference the myths given in them, such as this one, but I don't believe I've ever seen an official statement as to whether those myths are even canon.

[NewMars]

Quote

This leads into another question: are KoDP and 6A even considered canon? I know many of us use and reference the myths given in them, such as this one, but I don't believe I've ever seen an official statement as to whether those myths are even canon.

This isn't from KoDP (exactly), the myth is actually in the book of Heortling Mythology. So even if KoDP isn't canon, that myth is.

Edited January 24, 2020 by NewMars

[Richard S.]

1 minute ago, NewMars said:

This isn't from KoDP (exactly), the myth is actually in the book of Heortling Mythology. So even if KoDP isn't canon, that myth is.

Ah, my mistake.

[Richard S.]

7 minutes ago, NewMars said:

This isn't from KoDP (exactly), the myth is actually in the book of Heortling Mythology. So even if KoDP isn't canon, that myth is.

Okay, so I just read the myth as presented in the BoHM, and there are only two mentions of burning. The first one is when Elmal throws Eater of Skin into the sky, where it burns up. The second one is when he burns up Maker of Bad Growth's remains with his brightness. Neither of these require him to have fire: in the first one the burning is done by the sky, and in the second it could easily be assumed that Maker of Bad Growth has some darkness connection and therefore was destroyed by sheer light.

[NewMars]

7 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Okay, so I just read the myth as presented in the BoHM, and there are only two mentions of burning. The first one is when Elmal throws Eater of Skin into the sky, where it burns up. The second one is when he burns up Maker of Bad Growth's remains with his brightness. Neither of these require him to have fire: in the first one the burning is done by the sky, and in the second it could easily be assumed that Maker of Bad Growth has some darkness connection and therefore was destroyed by sheer light.

Remember that he fought using his spear, though, and at this point and in this context it was unspoken that this was a burning spear. Which was rather my point: he defeated the creators of disease with his spear, which doesn't make a lot of sense if his spear isn't the flaming lance.

[Richard S.]

7 minutes ago, NewMars said:

Remember that he fought using his spear, though, and at this point and in this context it was unspoken that this was a burning spear. Which was rather my point: he defeated the creators of disease with his spear, which doesn't make a lot of sense if his spear isn't the flaming lance.

Why is it unspoken that it was flaming? There's nothing in there to suggest that the spear represented fire powers. Everything Elmal uses is called out for its light and brightness, there's nothing about heat. Yelmalio uses a spear too, but you don't see him burning things with it.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Richard S.

[Richard S.]

I think Elmal Guards the Stead is supposed to be a story about his loyalty and purity, not a story about fighting disease. Perhaps that's what it was at one time, and the first three does certainly seem like diseases, but in the current era I feel it makes more sense that it is told to emphasize his steadfastness, especially since all the disease fighting is the domain of Chalana.

Maybe Elmal, back when he was the primary sun of the Orlanthi, had disease fighting powers, but as his and Yelmalio's cults began to associate and Yelm was revealed as the sun he lost those. Teller of Lies may have also been added into the myth to emphasize that the story was now about loyalty and light, not disease fighting.

[NewMars]

I'll admit, it does seem like the myth is kind of like two different myths that ended up stapled together. But that makes it kind of bizarre that a myth about loyalty to Orlanth and not the emperor would be the core myth of what is now apparently a regional subcult of a god who is about loyalty to the emperor. Also I was wrong, he has the justice spear, not the fire spear. That was my mistake.

Mind you, the whole Elmal no longer having fire thing becomes strangely hilarious because of a reference in the guide, where it says "He also fought against Orlanth at the Hill of Gold, and even stole fire from Elmal one time."

Are we sure that Jeff's not just heroquesting a myth here?

[JustAnotherVingan]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2020 at 6:02 AM, lordabdul said:

It's the "professional warrior" cult, and that doesn't have to be exclusive with the "scary, death" cult. It is scary because these people are weird (they have strange behaviour imposed by their geases), ruthless, and detached from the human experience. They're the mercenary who enters the inn and everybody falls quiet as he walks around slowly, because everybody knows he's not here for a drink (and in fact he probably doesn't drink). They're professional warriors, as in "that's all they do all day", compared to Orlanthi warriors who actually do some farming and drinking and community participation. The Orlanthi are Bruce Willis while the Humakti are Clint Eastwood.... (but YGMW and so on). But yes, Rune affinities are roleplaying cues here.

AFAICT the whole "severing ties" is actually only in HW/HQ. I can't find any mention of it in Cults of Prax and other RQ2-era supplements, and it's not mentioned at all in RQG either. My guess is that the authors went back to the original design of the Humakt cult, with multiple geases, as opposed to one geas + severing. Note that some of the geases relate to that (one is to remove all your Love passions, the other is to remove a Loyalty passion).

They're the psychopaths dressed in black all too often.

Like the Humakti who cured a plague by killing everyone who had it including himself (forget where I read that).

Not every Humakti is quite that fanatical ofc but the further you go in the cult the more you resemble Humakt who is not a nice god.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

They're the psychopaths dressed in black all too often.

Like the Humakti who cured a plague by killing everyone who had it including himself (forget where I read that).

Not every Humakti is quite that fanatical ofc but the further you go in the cult the more you resemble Humakt who is not a nice god.

Agree

I woudl'nt recommand an humakti / xxx-gor to a "new" player, Orlanth or Stormbull for power or roleplaying, (Y)Elmal(io) or Yelm or Argan argar for roleplaying and power on specific opponent.

Humakt, Maran  and other fanatical and very dedicated cults need to understand a lot of lore to be well played (except if you play only with the dice not the lore, your pleasure may vary)

I make a difference with Stormbull because  it is a very "easly understandable" dedicated cult (kill the bad = chaos, drink, laugh, break what you want..)

[Akhôrahil]

26 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I make a difference with Stormbull because  it is a very "easly understandable" dedicated cult (kill the bad = chaos, drink, laugh, break what you want..)

A new player should probably be told about the very serious issues with life-expectancy for Storm Bulls, though...

Edited January 24, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

8 hours ago, NewMars said:

I'll admit, it does seem like the myth is kind of like two different myths that ended up stapled together. But that makes it kind of bizarre that a myth about loyalty to Orlanth and not the emperor would be the core myth of what is now apparently a regional subcult of a god who is about loyalty to the emperor. Also I was wrong, he has the justice spear, not the fire spear. That was my mistake.

Mind you, the whole Elmal no longer having fire thing becomes strangely hilarious because of a reference in the guide, where it says "He also fought against Orlanth at the Hill of Gold, and even stole fire from Elmal one time."

Are we sure that Jeff's not just heroquesting a myth here?

I am pretty sure that is not in the Guide to the Glorantha. Or the Sourcebook. May I ask what you are referring to?

[Akhôrahil]

24 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I am pretty sure that is not in the Guide to the Glorantha. Or the Sourcebook. May I ask what you are referring to?

He's repeatedly called "the sun god" in the Guide, though, and carries the sun on his back/is the divine sun stallion.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

He's repeatedly called "the sun god" in the Guide, though, and carries the sun on his back/is the divine sun stallion.

Come on guys, this is what the Guide actually says:

On page 37 Elmal is listed among "Minor Gods" as "Elmal the Sun God." 

On page 152, Elmal is listed in the Storm Pantheon as Elmal the Sun God with the runes of Fire and Truth. That's a typo - should be Light and Truth. There's a few other errors in that chapter about the Runes for specific gods, all of which are corrected in the Cults Book.

Page 160, Elmal is described as "a horse carrying the Sun on his back." Note that the Sun is not Elmal.

Page 188, Runegate is described as having a temple to Elmal the Sun God and Hyalor Horsebreaker. That's true.

Page 236, illustration has Elmal the Sun Stallion pulling Orlanth and Ernalda's chariot. That's an in-Gloranthan piece of art, possibly dating to the First Age.

Before you all argue with me about this, I wrote all of this. None of that contradicts what all I have been saying (except the typo on page 152). Gloranthans themselves do not make these sorts of Talmudic distinction. Elmal may well remain an artistic feature (the Sun Stallion) - even though his actual cult now identifies him as Yelmalio. The Orlanthi call the Sun Disk "Yelm" but recognise numerous minor sun gods  (Elmal, Yelmalio, Yamsur, Sun Hawk, etc.). Elmal's cult is now largely subsumed into Yelmalio's AND that has been the case since Greg wrote his "Making Gods" essay (which I advise reading carefully).

[Darius West]

On 1/22/2020 at 1:52 AM, Jeff said:

Elmal lost his fire magic being repeatedly defeated, cut-up, robbed, etc., defending "the Stead" (AKA the Hill of Gold). He has no more Fire Magic than Elmal.

And actually maybe less - I keep going around and around whether Sandy was right when he removed Summon Small and Medium Fire Elemental from Yelmalio (although probably should come from Yelm).

Greg always said that Yelmalio is a comparatively weak war god, but in the Grey Age he had the great advantage of Not Being Dead. So his cult was important at the Dawn and found an important purpose in the Broken Council with his comparative advantage in fighting trolls (Catseye and Sunbright are fantastic at fighting trolls). Their gifts mean the cult has a disproportionate number of initiates with a 90% weapon skill, a disproportionate number of remarkable horsemen, etc.

Now Yelmalio isn't that good at fighting Orlanth (although Cloud Clear certainly can get rid of some of Orlanth's heavy artillery), but he doesn't need to be. He just needs to be tough enough to maintain his own autonomy. Orlanth and Yelmalio are rivals, but not bitter ones. And the cults work together as often as against each other,

So, how is it then that Elmal features in Orlanthi myths, but Yelmalion has his own and very separate myth cycle?  I simply don't buy it.  If there are tribes still worshipping Elmal, then they aren't worshipping Yelmalio.  2 different gods.  No monomyth. Consider... how many Sun gods are there?  Are they all the same or all different?  Even in Dara Happa there are dozens of deities who are all essentially just the Sun, but are also different deities, or at least different aspects of the deity.

What we have is a situation where Elmal has the older story and is the older god, but hasn't been updated with the "further adventures" of the younger cult.

Elmal is clearly the older religion.  As a result it is probably easy for an Elmal worshipper to convert to Yelmalio, but not for a Yelmalio worshipper to convert to Elmal.  We all know that Yelmalions who complete the Hill of Gold successfully get their fire powers back, well, Elmal never lost his, because the Hill of Gold was never his stead, and not his adventure.

Monomything is shabby and lazy Jeff.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Darius West

[Jeff]

14 minutes ago, Darius West said:

So, how is it then that Elmal features in Orlanthi myths, but Yelmalion has his own and very separate myth cycle?  I simply don't buy it.  If there are tribes still worshipping Elmal, then they aren't worshipping Yelmalio.  2 different gods.  No monomyth. Consider... how many Sun gods are there?  Are they all the same or all different?  Even in Dara Happa there are dozens of deities who are all essentially just the Sun, but are also different deities, or at least different aspects of the deity.

What we have is a situation where Elmal has the older story and is the older god, but hasn't been updated with the "further adventures" of the younger cult.

Elmal is clearly the older religion.  As a result it is probably easy for an Elmal worshipper to convert to Yelmalio, but not for a Yelmalio worshipper to convert to Elmal.  We all know that Yelmalions who complete the Hill of Gold successfully get their fire powers back, well, Elmal never lost his, because the Hill of Gold was never his stead, and not his adventure.

Monomything is shabby and lazy Jeff.

Yelmalio appears in Orlanth's myths. And Yelmalio also has his own myth cycle - which actually has more interaction with Orlanth and Ernalda. 

And I don't think Elmal is the oldest of the Lightfore cults. That honor probably goes to Antirius and Kargzant. Or maybe even Yamsur.

Jeff

[Darius West]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yelmalio appears in Orlanth's myths. And Yelmalio also has his own myth cycle - which actually has more interaction with Orlanth and Ernalda. 

Except that Yelmalio didn't exist yet.  Yelmalio only comes about as a result of Monrogh and distinctly after time begins, ergo, a separate deity who was retrofitted into the myths and smacks of God Learning

8 minutes ago, Jeff said:

And I don't think Elmal is the oldest of the Lightfore cults. That honor probably goes to Antirius and Kargzant. Or maybe even Yamsur.

You didn't understand my point.  There are literally 100s of deities who are all basically the Sun, all across Glorantha.  It doesn't matter which is the oldest, only that there are hundreds of them and they are all as mythically valid as any other.  What is invalid is hijacking them into a God Learner monomyth.

[Richard S.]

After being up in the mountains, I think I understand why Y/Elmal/io was worshiped more for light than heat. Even with the sun out it can be pretty cold up there, Yelm 's heat doesn't make a huge difference. The light is pretty useful for not falling off stuff though.

Edited January 24, 2020 by Richard S.

[Prinz Slasar]

I would just like to say that I like what Jeff is doing with Elmal. I don't like the 100 different sungods and variations of Yelmalio.

For me, RQG is the best way to handle Elmal.

[NewMars]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

I am pretty sure that is not in the Guide to the Glorantha. Or the Sourcebook. May I ask what you are referring to?

Oh, sorry, I meant the book of Heortling Mythology, page 169 to be precise.

[Godweyn]

Well in the ""the book of heortling mythology" there are a LOT of mentions of the good Elmal, but if you look close enough, he is not a fire god, not now, he was stripped of his fire powers too, or in other words, the story of Elmal is like the counterpart of  the Yelmalio story, for a greater myth. The only problem is the order of the events, that, of course, are impossible of really trail because time don’t exist, so is entirely possible to two entities that are the same to be in two places, with to different outcomes at the same moment... after all there was no such thing like a "moment".

Example nº1 page 124 : " ...We lived on, in peace, and had a chance to have children again, even though there was only poor light from Elmal, and it was always cold."

Example nº2 page 148: "...Elmal was wounded several times, each time worse than the last. At last he stood guard, feeble but still lit, atop the inert body of Kero Fin, lighting the land like a dim sun. When Orlanth and Ernalda cured Yelm of his wounds the Emperor gave them a horse of healing that they released. It galloped across the sky to Elmal, who mounted upon it and rode to the Underworld."