Elmal?

[Richard S.]

One important thing is that Yelmalio is not solely a god of war. Sure, his cult is famed for their mercenaries, but he is also a patron of farmers, and through his association with Ernalda he can grant Bless Crops, something that no other war god can. Especially for those in areas with a high troll presence, I have no trouble understanding how his cult can be so prominent despite its apparent magical weakness. And in those areas with a hostile Darkness presence, I feel he could easily become the dominant god.

Also, light magic can be pretty effective in combat, moreso than most give it credit I think. You ever tried wrapping a Lightwall around someone's head? Or centering a Light on their nose? A blind man can quickly become a dead man. Sunbright gives Shimmer 2 (I know it's only -10% but it's still something), and a commanded hawk can be a valuable ally.

I do think Yelmalio should get something more to help him in combat though. Personally I may end up giving him Shield. Sureshot and True Spear would be appropriate too I think, though I wonder if maybe the reason he's bereft of so many spells it would make sense for him to have is because Orlanth stole his weapons. Y'know, that's probably it.

[Shiningbrow]

17 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

Humakt has no associated cults, yes, but I think it only means that you won't find Humakti shrines or other worship sites at any other cult temple, and no cult teaches secrets (like special magic) to Humakti initiates. But as far as being a lay member or initiate of multiple cults, RQG only says the cults must be "compatible". I haven't found out if that means "at least neutral" or "at least friendly", but that opens up opportunities for Humakti to belong to a couple other cults at least, if not many other cults. They would have separate Rune point pools though.

Yeah. I know. Just slightly harder. Especially if the cutting of all other ties is actually taken seriously!

Humakt shouldn't really be seen as the "warrior" cult, but more as the "scary, death" cult. (Runic associations should really be a roleplay thing, and people with a high Death Rune should feel really unnerving to be around).

[Richard S.]

9 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Yeah. I know. Just slightly harder. Especially if the cutting of all other ties is actually taken seriously!

Humakt shouldn't really be seen as the "warrior" cult, but more as the "scary, death" cult. (Runic associations should really be a roleplay thing, and people with a high Death Rune should feel really unnerving to be around).

Yeah, I really wish RQG had upped the Humakti insistence on severing ties, maybe even bringing back the requirement from HQG that you had to cut all family ties to initiate (in RQ terms that'd probably mean removing the Love (Family) passion). Without family support (and for the really dedicated, maybe even clan and tribe support), Humakti are at a disadvantage in a lot of situations. And yeah, the RP aspects of runes and cults should be emphasized a shit ton, too many people, especially new players I've encountered, just look at the cults as lists of spells, skills, and requirements.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Richard S.

[Shiningbrow]

5 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

You ever tried wrapping a Lightwall around someone's head?

You can't. (Unless it's an extremely loose "wrap").

(And it coats 4 MP - so that had better be an important enemy, or you've got lots on MPs to space.

But, yeah, normal usage is good!

 

5 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Or centering a Light on their nose?

And this (as well as the above attempt) require a Resistance Roll.

 

Besides which, just because a cult doesn't offer up a certain spell doesn't mean you can't buy them elsewhere... Yelmalio doesn't list Heal or Bladesharp or Protection - but bet your boots cultists will have them!

[Shiningbrow]

2 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

too many people, especially new players I've encountered, just look at the cults as lists of spells, skills, and requirements

WAAAYYYYY too true!!!!

[Richard S.]

1 hour ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

BRP can have a little Elmal infighting, as a treat

Let's be honest, Y/Elmal/io debates are this board's Dart Wars. They hone our skills (in terms of lore and debate) while also keeping us busy enough that we can't challenge the mods' power 😋

[Shiningbrow]

7 hours ago, Tindalos said:

The guide and sourcebook say Elmal and that's good enough for me.

I understand what you are saying.

But I'm after the god that has the Light and Fire/Heat powers that the sun actually has - not merely a name.

A god of the air and wind with no wind powers would be ridiculous. A god of the earth with no earth powers would be ridiculous. So, why isn't a sun god with no fire/heat powers ridiculous?

The "there's a myth that explains how they were lost" doesn't help when the big ball in the sky still has them... 

[Lordabdul]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

Humakt shouldn't really be seen as the "warrior" cult, but more as the "scary, death" cult. (Runic associations should really be a roleplay thing, and people with a high Death Rune should feel really unnerving to be around).

It's the "professional warrior" cult, and that doesn't have to be exclusive with the "scary, death" cult. It is scary because these people are weird (they have strange behaviour imposed by their geases), ruthless, and detached from the human experience. They're the mercenary who enters the inn and everybody falls quiet as he walks around slowly, because everybody knows he's not here for a drink (and in fact he probably doesn't drink). They're professional warriors, as in "that's all they do all day", compared to Orlanthi warriors who actually do some farming and drinking and community participation. The Orlanthi are Bruce Willis while the Humakti are Clint Eastwood.... (but YGMW and so on). But yes, Rune affinities are roleplaying cues here.

59 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Yeah, I really wish RQG had upped the Humakti insistence on severing ties, maybe even bringing back the requirement from HQG that you had to cut all family ties to initiate

AFAICT the whole "severing ties" is actually only in HW/HQ. I can't find any mention of it in Cults of Prax and other RQ2-era supplements, and it's not mentioned at all in RQG either. My guess is that the authors went back to the original design of the Humakt cult, with multiple geases, as opposed to one geas + severing. Note that some of the geases relate to that (one is to remove all your Love passions, the other is to remove a Loyalty passion).

Edited January 23, 2020 by lordabdul

[Jeff]

32 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I understand what you are saying.

But I'm after the god that has the Light and Fire/Heat powers that the sun actually has - not merely a name.

A god of the air and wind with no wind powers would be ridiculous. A god of the earth with no earth powers would be ridiculous. So, why isn't a sun god with no fire/heat powers ridiculous?

The "there's a myth that explains how they were lost" doesn't help when the big ball in the sky still has them... 

That god is Yelm. The god of the fiery hot sun that first rose with the Dawn. Even the Orlanthi call it that. Killing Yelm and then undertaking the Lightbringers Quest (the name provides a hint) to resurrect Yelm are two of the defining myths of the Orlanthi religion. 

[Jeff]

Yelmalio gets Shield as an associate cult of Yelm. Elmal gets Shield as an associate cult of Orlanth.

[Shiningbrow]

6 minutes ago, Jeff said:

That god is Yelm. The god of the fiery hot sun that first rose with the Dawn. Even the Orlanthi call it that. Killing Yelm and then undertaking the Lightbringers Quest (the name provides a hint) to resurrect Yelm are two of the defining myths of the Orlanthi religion. 

I'm fully aware of the LBQ. And I had thought Orlanthi called that big thing in the sky Yelm.

What I don't get is why that big thing in the sky that provides heat, warmth, crops, livelihood, enjoyment, etc is not worshipped by the Orlanthi, who so clearly rely on it's powers for survival. Apparently, not even in a propitiary way.

Orlanth as King of the Gods and Yelm somewhere down the line - sure. Not at all - baffling! (This is true for all agricultural societies)

I get the mythic reasons. Not the pragmatic. And I'm clearly not the only person with this issue.

[Richard S.]

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yelmalio gets Shield as an associate cult of Yelm.

Would be nice if that was in the core rules.

Edited January 23, 2020 by Richard S.

[metcalph]

9 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

Would be nice if that was in the core rules.

Yelmalio is not an associate of the cult of Yelm in the core rules.  

[Shiningbrow]

31 minutes ago, lordabdul said:

It is scary because these people are weird (they have strange behaviour imposed by their geases), ruthless, and detached from the human experience

I'm agreeing I with you.

I doubt many players would play that way. Certainly not all the time.

That last bit is really the main point!

[Richard S.]

1 minute ago, metcalph said:

Yelmalio is not an associate of the cult of Yelm in the core rules.  

Er...

[Shiningbrow]

29 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Yelmalio gets Shield as an associate cult of Yelm. Elmal gets Shield as an associate cult of Orlanth.

Associated Cults•

Aldrya: Provides Heal Body.

• Ernalda: Provides Bless Crops.

• Yelm: Provides Sunspear (one-use) to High Priests of Yelmalio.

 

My version... 

3 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Yelmalio is not an associate of the cult of Yelm in the core rules.  

I'm not sure what you're looking at, but mine has cross associations.

Yelmalio gives Cat'seye to his father...

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Yelmalio gets Shield as an associate cult of Yelm.

This is a huge upgrade, and makes Yelmalio’s fighting magic non-awful in one stroke. Just the kind of survivability-magic I wanted to see!

Edited January 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm fully aware of the LBQ. And I had thought Orlanthi called that big thing in the sky Yelm.

What I don't get is why that big thing in the sky that provides heat, warmth, crops, livelihood, enjoyment, etc is not worshipped by the Orlanthi, who so clearly rely on it's powers for survival. Apparently, not even in a propitiary way.

Orlanth as King of the Gods and Yelm somewhere down the line - sure. Not at all - baffling! (This is true for all agricultural societies)

I get the mythic reasons. Not the pragmatic. And I'm clearly not the only person with this issue.

That big thing that helps the crops grow is Yelm. Ernalda acknowledges him as a husband-deity, and he is often invoked in her worship (even if he is something of a prick). But he's not seen as particularly friendly by the Orlanthi (neutral at best), but Ernalda knows how to use his heat. And she is more useful to worship anyways.

This conflict between Sun and Storm is something that has been hard-wired into Greg's myths since Ehilm and Humak first appeared in the stories of Jonat Bigbear in the 1960s. Some cultures worship both Orlanth and Yelm - traditionally that is how it has been handled in Saird (prior to the Sixth Wane), Fronela, or Safelster. But in Dragon Pass, Orlanth is the tribal patron and in many cases the ancestor - they are Orlanth-partisans. Same thing in Dara Happa - Yelm is the tribal patron, and in many cases the ancestor deity. 

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, Jeff said:

That big thing that helps the crops grow is Yelm.

So in the Elmal/Heler rivalry over Esrola, what does Elmal actually offer? If the sun is all Yelm, I mean?

Edited January 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

So in the Elmal/Heler rivalry over Esrola, what does Elmal actually offer? If the sun is all Yelm, I mean?

Obviously neither offer much, since Esrola favours Argan Argar.

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

...

I get the mythic reasons. Not the pragmatic. And I'm clearly not the only person with this issue.

I think the "pragmatic" reason is that Orlanth is real.  And he and Yelm don't get along  ...  The mythic reason IS the pragmatic reason!

 

Good Orlanthi dan't stay good Orlanthi if they actively worship Yelm, and Yelm frankly can't stand the Orlanthi anyhow... they'd need to convert -- and change their behavior! -- to be acceptable Yelm worshipers.

Fortunately, the Orlanthi have "little sun" deities; and even more -- they worship Ernalda, who can manage that bastard Yelm (because she's just that awesome).

So the Orlanthi worship Ernalda, and get their bountiful crops and their healthy flocks and etc (all relying on Yelm) and Ernalda manages the unpleasant stuff about Yelm.

 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Obviously neither offer much, since Esrola favours Argan Argar.

I'm serious, though. If Elmal is the sun, the myth makes sense - the crops need both rain and sunlight, but neither in unlimited amounts, and Esrola maintains a balance.

If he isn't, and has nothing to do with making the crops grow because that's all Yelm, how does the myth even work out? Heler offers Esrola rain, and Elmal offers her... if not sunlight, then what?

Edited January 23, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

20 minutes ago, g33k said:

I think the "pragmatic" reason is that Orlanth is real.  And he and Yelm don't get along  ...  The mythic reason IS the pragmatic reason!

 

Good Orlanthi dan't stay good Orlanthi if they actively worship Yelm, and Yelm frankly can't stand the Orlanthi anyhow... they'd need to convert -- and change their behavior! -- to be acceptable Yelm worshipers.

Fortunately, the Orlanthi have "little sun" deities; and even more -- they worship Ernalda, who can manage that bastard Yelm (because she's just that awesome).

So the Orlanthi worship Ernalda, and get their bountiful crops and their healthy flocks and etc (all relying on Yelm) and Ernalda manages the unpleasant stuff about Yelm.

 

As an aside, it is worth thinking about what role the Lightbringers Quest plays into this - particularly Harmast's Lightbringers Quest.

[Tindalos]

7 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm serious, though. If Elmal is the sun, the myth makes sense - the crops need both rain and sunlight, but neither in unlimited amounts, and Esrola maintains a balance.

If he isn't, and has nothing to do with making the crops grow because that's all Yelm, how does the myth even work out? Heler offers Esrola rain, and Elmal offers her... if not sunlight, then what?

The balance between Heler's Rain and Elmal's Cloud Clear? Also Elmal's version of Bless Crops presumably.

Yelm's magic would be useful for helping the crops, that's more Lodril's remit with Earthwarm.

And of course, as page 288 says "This is the name by which the deity is best known (and not necessarily the name used by the deity’s worshipers)" which is very helpful. Many worshippers are gonna be using the same basic cult write up, but they'll have their own god, they'll recognise outsiders names for them, but just like how the pure horsemen know the sun is Yu-Kargzant, variants will exist elsewhere. And it's more interesting that way, helps make cults and mythology feel alive.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I'm serious, though. If Elmal is the sun, the myth makes sense. If he isn't, and has nothing to do with making the crops grow because that's all Yelm, how does the myth even work out? Heler offers Esrola rain, and Elmal offers her... if not sunlight, then what?

I am serious as well. Esrola's main husband is Argan Argar. Yelmalio and Heler are also both sometimes husbands of the local Grain Goddess. The rivalry between Elmal/Yelmalio and Heler over Esrola appears as one sentence in Sartar Companion, and when I revisited Heler for the Cults Book, I dropped it entirely.