Elmal?

[Jeff]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

I would say that these aspects are very divergent.  They can't even access many of the same spells.  As to Zeus and Jupiter, there are huge differences.  In fact there were huge inconsistencies in how Zeus was worshipped.  For example not many people talk about Lycaean Zeus, i.e. Zeus the Werewolf as worshipped by the Neuri, was not at all similar to how Zeus was worshipped in other places.  Regional variation was and is important.

Also, if you look up the Vantaros clan, one thing that comes across loud and clear is that they have banned Elmal worship.  Now if there was no Elmal worship that wouldn't be necessary would it?  Clearly there was Elmal worship that Harvar felt he needed to suppress.  I think the Tarshites didn't have many Yelmalio worshippers in their ranks at all, and the ones who did exist were subsumed into Elmal worship voluntarily for want of a shrine.  Monrogh's schism only happened 44 years ago for Sartarites, and it was likely a Lunar plot to sow disunity in the Kingdom.

I would also point out that Elmal even has distinct spirits of retribution, including the Yoskati and Reflartings.  Yelmalio only has Monrogh as its spirit of retribution.  It is also worth pointing out that Elmal's runes  are fire and truth, while Yelmalio's runes are light and truth.  Ergo, Elmal has intact fire powers.

If Zeus and Jupiter were real and not cultural contructs, they are either the gods of certain phenomena with many names and many aspects in many lands, or they are tribal patrons. Yelmalio is not a mere tribal patron (nor is Orlanth). He is a real deity, with many names (including Elmal, Antirius, Kargzant, etc.). I call him "Yelmalio" in the Cults Book because that what Greg and I normally called him unless were were talking about a local version or variant.

You look at GRoY, Entekosiad, etc., and the monomyth is still there. There is a consistent whole to Gloranthan mythology - that's a key part of its appeal. You can see elements of the Weapons Contest in the conflict between Oorsu Sara and Govmeranen. Details differ because the mythic event is being experienced from a different vantage point or with different purposes and priorities. But the framework is still there.

Jeff

[Tindalos]

It's the age old Lumpers vs Splitters debate, and which is more important the similarities or the differences.

While I am very much a splitter, I'd also say neither is a wrong way to view things, and certainly lumping is more useful for most rpg experiences.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Tindalos said:

It's the age old Lumpers vs Splitters debate, and which is more important the similarities or the differences.

While I am very much a splitter, I'd also say neither is a wrong way to view things, and certainly lumping is more useful for most rpg experiences.

Also most Gloranthans are Lumpers, not Splitters. That's not just the God Learners, but the Theyalan missionaries, the Lunars, and many others. A Sun Priest and an Light Priest challenge each other over the identity of the Sun by magical contest of clarification and identification. The Light Priest can show off his light magic, can see in the dark, etc. and prove that his god did not die in the Darkness, but the Sun Priest can get the Light Priest's god to acknowledge that Yelm is the Sun who died with the Darkness and returned with the Dawn. A similar thing happens when a Storm Voice encounters a Storm Khan - the Storm Voice can demand aid from the Storm Khan and the Khan must accept, although he may demand a price in return. That isn't social convention - that's Storm Bull acknowledging Orlanth. And it happened wherever the Orlanthi went. 

Two Light Priests meet. The first says that their god is the ally and servant of Orlanth and calls upon Orlanth for the gift of Shield. The other says that their god is no servant, but is the son of the Sun and calls upon Yelm for the gift of Shield. Both are right, for at times Lightfore did aid Orlanth and at times Lightfore fought with Orlanth. But the second can likely reveal more secrets than the first, and can reveal what Yelmalio received at the Hill of Gold and fill it the gaps in stories that now make more sense.  And they ask Elmal if this is true and he says yes. Some refuse this new insight, because of tradition, ambition, politics, or identity, but most accept this. When they worship Yelmalio, no spirits of retribution come for them, and Elmal does not protest.

[Akhôrahil]

How is the Hill of Gold a better core myth than Elmal Guards the Stead?

What I find so unusual about this whole discussion is that Glorantha is normally very wary of deciding that someone is right and someone else is wrong. There would never be any objective statements that the Lunars are in the right and the Orlanthi just fools, or vice versa. But with Elmal/Yelmalio, we now essentially have Word of God that Elmalites are just stubborn reactionary fools who can’t accept the actual truth for bad reasons.

(I mean, I’m sure that what Jeff says here is the Yelmalio party line.)

Edited January 27, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Tindalos]

15 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Also most Gloranthans are Lumpers, not Splitters. That's not just the God Learners, but the Theyalan missionaries, the Lunars, and many others.

Doesn't surprise me that empire builders find it useful to lump.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

How is the Hill of Gold a better core myth than Elmal Guards the Stead?

What I find so unusual about this whole discussion is that Glorantha is normally very wary of deciding that someone is right and someone else is wrong. There would never be any objective statements that the Lunars are in the right and the Orlanthi just fools, or vice versa. But with Elmal/Yelmalio, we now essentially have Word of God that Elmalites are just stubborn reactionary fools who can’t accept the actual truth for bad reasons.

 

But the Lunars are right about many of their claims. Their Goddess did gain acknowledgement from most of the forces of the cosmos at the Battle of Castle Blue (although some claim she cheated). She has proven her power over and over again, which is usually a pretty good authority. She acknowledges that she embraces Chaos - AND that is what keeps her from being fully accepted by Orlanth, Storm Bull, and others. But no one denies that she is the Red Moon Goddess.

Same thing with Orlanth. He led the Lightbringers Quest, made peace with Yelm, and helped form the Cosmic Compromise that saved the Cosmos. He may be a rebel, a murderer, and a destroyer, but he can back up those claims. Even Yelm acknowledges it (although he puts the emphasis a bit differently).

 

[Akhôrahil]

And this makes things interesting. Which is why I would prefer both sides having a point or a case in Yelmalio/Elmal, as well, without an objective referee deciding who is right.

Elmal worship is getting very close to just doing it wrong.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Jeff]

24 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

And this makes things interesting. Which is why I would prefer both sides having a point or a case in Yelmalio/Elmal, as well, without an objective referee deciding who is right.

Elmal worship is getting very close to just doing it wrong.

In Glorantha things do get proven to the acceptance of most everyone. Khordavu definitely proved to everyone's satisfaction that the Dara Happans know more about the Sun God than their neighbours, and Yelm was quickly acknowledged throughout Peloria and beyond. Harmast definitely proved to everyone's satisfaction that Orlanth led the Seven Lightbringers, having performed the quest twice to restore a Broken World.

Now perhaps in the Hero Wars, someone proves to most everyone's satisfaction that Yelmalio is actually responsible for destroying Sedenya in the Lesser Darkness, or maybe that it was Yelmalio who killed the Sky Tyrant (both could be prove very useful in the Hero Wars). Or maybe an Orlanthi might prove that Elmal was a name for Reladivus, who served Orlanth instead of being destroyed by Ram Barbarians (and thus not Yelmalio). But in the Sartar of 1625, the Elmal cult has largely been subsumed into Yelmalio as described in the Making Gods essay.

Jeff

[Shawn Carpenter]

In the canonical Sartar of 1625, the Elmal cult has largely been subsumed into Yelmalio as described in the Making Gods essay.

And there's nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't have anything to do with the game I'm running. 

If I'm invited to play in someone else's game and they've chosen to be canonical about Yelmalio and Elmal, that will be my character's truth and I'll play them accordingly.

Arguments about it are fun to watch and occasionally unearth some tidbit of lore I wasn't aware of, but other than that they're pointless. Canon is what the franchise owners say it is. That's exactly as it should be.

The weight of canon doesn't extend any further than the covers of an official publication, though. It's not like there are competitive Glorantha tourneys being played that people will be disqualified from if they show up with a non-canonical god in their army list. It's not like canon is enforceable at your table or mine.

Canon (and the Vice-Presidency) isn't worth a warm bucket of spit, so why fret about it? I'm perfectly content with the Chaosium sourcebooks. They're well-written, inspire me to run games, and are well worth the price even if I don't decide to use everything in them.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Shawn Carpenter said:

In the canonical Sartar of 1625, the Elmal cult has largely been subsumed into Yelmalio as described in the Making Gods essay.

And there's nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't have anything to do with the game I'm running. 

If I'm invited to play in someone else's game and they've chosen to be canonical about Yelmalio and Elmal, that will be my character's truth and I'll play them accordingly.

Arguments about it are fun to watch and occasionally unearth some tidbit of lore I wasn't aware of, but other than that they're pointless. Canon is what the franchise owners say it is. That's exactly as it should be.

The weight of canon doesn't extend any further than the covers of an official publication, though. It's not like there are competitive Glorantha tourneys being played that people will be disqualified from if they show up with a non-canonical god in their army list. It's not like canon is enforceable at your table or mine.

Canon (and the Vice-Presidency) isn't worth a warm bucket of spit, so why fret about it? I'm perfectly content with the Chaosium sourcebooks. They're well-written, inspire me to run games, and are well worth the price even if I don't decide to use everything in them.

This is absolutely true, You can do what you want with your Glorantha. 

When I am writing these forums, I am laying down the take we will take in publications, and also helpfully giving details useful for people who want to use those publications, write for us, etc. If you as an individual GM or player want to go in a different direction, go for it.

[Shawn Carpenter]

Thanks, Jeff! I never doubted it. Chaosium's mantra of YGWV says it all, sir!

[scott-martin]

1 hour ago, Akhôrahil said:

How is the Hill of Gold a better core myth than Elmal Guards the Stead?

For me at least Hill of Gold is more broadly applicable to a wide range of life circumstances. 

Guards the Stead is great but it revolves around accepting a subordinate role. His greatest pains come from following orders despite all temptations to the contrary. Failure means you're not Elmal any more. Full success means realizing that submission to your duty transcends personal loyalty and is a higher reward. It's a magnificent story with something to teach us all, especially the winners who need to learn how to step back.

But Hill of Gold forces failure by setting you up to lose. You're probably not going to keep your fire. You're vanishingly unlikely to win anything back. But you go anyway. You get your butt kicked and the parts of you that survive will always mourn the sacrifice. We've all been there. Shitty things happen to the best and brightest. And that's how the work of the world gets done. It's a magnificent story with something to teach us all, especially the losers who need a reason to go on. It supports a more nuanced and flexible moral consciousness, which is good unless you see nuance and flexibility as part of the problem.

Are everyday initiates engaged with the full revelation of either story? No way. Most of them are only a little less petty than the rest of us. They want to win. Sacrifice is not something to embrace. But maybe in some sun domes they remember different pieces of it. There's still a lot we don't know about those other domes. Put them all together, maybe you get an even better god. Some will set their jaw and renounce what they see as tellers of lies, false prophets. 

I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the Pavis Dome favors Elmal forms. I don't hear a lot about those guys even paying lip service to the idea of pilgrimage to Hill of Gold, assuming they even remember where it is. They play it down. More important here on the edge of the wasteland to maintain discipline, obey the chain of command, do what the other guy tells you even though it goes against your self image and instinct for self preservation. You take it for the team so the community can survive. You Guard The Stead. 

Whether that means Yelmalio-in-Pavis gets fire magic, the hero wars will say.

[Akhôrahil]

47 minutes ago, Shawn Carpenter said:

In the canonical Sartar of 1625, the Elmal cult has largely been subsumed into Yelmalio as described in the Making Gods essay.

And there's nothing wrong with that. It just doesn't have anything to do with the game I'm running. 

And even if it does happen, I find a large difference between saying happened for a complex set of social reasons, and saying it happened because the Yelmalio cult was more right and true and the Elmalites just mostly realized this once it was revealed. While the winner does gets to write the mythology, I don't think we should say that the winner is automatically the one who got things right.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[M Helsdon]

One thing to consider, that in a Bronze/Iron Age setting even the 'same' god will have cults with greater and lesser variations in ritual, dogma, and a variety of other things, so there isn't a Yelmalio cult but a variation of Yelmalio cults. Those temples in Saird will be broadly similar (but not identical) whilst those further away will deviate further, either because the cult has changed due to regional circumstances, and/or because the cult retains features from the past. In that scenario, Elmal is simply another divergent form.

I'm probably wrong, but the version in RQ:G will reflect the cult in Dragon Pass/Prax, as, probably, the Cults books will - because attempting to document cultic variations would be of little interest to most readers, and add significantly to the size of the books.

It is worth bearing in mind the very different features of a cult that isn't totally dissimilar to Yelmalio: Mithras. Mithras was seen as a god of light, truth and contracts, in addition to being a soldiers' god.

You can rest assured that the cults of Mithras within the western and eastern portions of the Roman Empire weren't identical, and these in turn differed from the Commagene cult of Mithras-Helios, Armenian Mihr, the Persian cult of Mithra, the Indian cult of Mitra, the Greco-Bactrian Mithro, the Hittite/Hurrian Miitra, and perhaps even the Buddhist Maitreya...

Edited January 27, 2020 by M Helsdon

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

You can rest assured that the cults of Mithras within the western and eastern portions of the Roman Empire weren't identical, and these in turn differed from the Commagene cult of Mithras-Helios, Armenian Mihr, the Persian cult of Mithra, the Indian cult of Mitra, the Greco-Bactrian Mithro, the Hittite/Hurrian Miitra, and perhaps even the Buddhist Maitreya...

Can't remember who said that talking about "the Cult of Orlanth" is pretty much like talking about "the Cult of Dyáuṣ Pitṛ́".

[Ali the Helering]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Can't remember who said that talking about "the Cult of Orlanth" is pretty much like talking about "the Cult of Dyáuṣ Pitṛ́".

I take the approach that Orlanth is a title rather than a name, and that each Thunder Brother is an Orlanth.  

[Akhôrahil]

8 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

I take the approach that Orlanth is a title rather than a name, and that each Thunder Brother is an Orlanth.  

Even Heler shares a whole bunch of mythic characteristics with Orlanth.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

I'm probably wrong, but the version in RQ:G will reflect the cult in Dragon Pass/Prax, as, probably, the Cults books will - because attempting to document cultic variations would be of little interest to most readers, and add significantly to the size of the books

I sincerely hope that we are going to get a "Cults of Dragon Pass and Saird", as we have suffered from the Praxian (lack of) perspective for too long.

Don't get me wrong, Cults of Prax is brilliant - for the Zola Fel valley in Prax.

But it is of limited use describing Sartar.

The Cult of Ernalda in RQ3 DeLuxe box was an attempt to get beyond the Praxian ghetto, and describe the Orlanthi.

Only it was possible to read the cult without realizing that half of the people in Dragon Pass are members of this cult, and probably 95% of the population worship her.

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I sincerely hope that we are going to get a "Cults of Dragon Pass and Saird", as we have suffered from the Praxian (lack of) perspective for too long.

That would be so great - we get (by necessity) a high-level view of most cults, so seeing all the local differences would really round the vision out. I want to see a weird local interpretation of Orlanth, and so on.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Tindalos]

32 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

I take the approach that Orlanth is a title rather than a name, and that each Thunder Brother is an Orlanth.  

And of course Yelmalio is a title.

 

23 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Even Heler shares a whole bunch of mythic characteristics with Orlanth.

You can say similar about Storm Bull and Kolat, big storm gods who live on top of mountains.

[Lordabdul]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

Now perhaps in the Hero Wars, someone proves to most everyone's satisfaction that Yelmalio is actually responsible for destroying Sedenya in the Lesser Darkness, or maybe that it was Yelmalio who killed the Sky Tyrant (both could be prove very useful in the Hero Wars).

Is there a difference between "someone proves XYZ about the Gods" and "someones manages to change the Gods in order to make XYZ true"? Is the difference that the former can be achieved with a single sufficiently deep heroquest (or even without heroquest, by just intensely studying historical documents) while the latter can only be achieved through many many heroquests performed by many people?

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, lordabdul said:

Is there a difference between "someone proves XYZ about the Gods" and "someones manages to change the Gods in order to make XYZ true"?

I think it’s always good to start with what Gloranthans experience. If they can’t tell the difference, there probably isn’t one in any way that matters. How do you prove anything about the gods? Presumably by creating an efficacious ritual or magic or heroquest. Could anyone tell whether you ‘changed’ something or just discovered it? I don’t think so.

Of course, one problem here is that two contradictory things can both be efficacious, so while you can prove things, it’s super hard to disprove anything. That’s God-Learner level stuff, not just showing what you can do but stopping others from doing their stuff by messing up their myths.

[Bill the barbarian]

Hey, all! Ya know, I don’t have a horse running in this race. But as a neutral can I say, that at 10 pages of possible bruised egos, fights and silliness this is quite a well behaved discourse.

Bravo!

Edited January 28, 2020 by Bill the barbarian

[Lordabdul]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think it’s always good to start with what Gloranthans experience. If they can’t tell the difference, there probably isn’t one in any way that matters. How do you prove anything about the gods? Presumably by creating an efficacious ritual or magic or heroquest. Could anyone tell whether you ‘changed’ something or just discovered it? I don’t think so.

Sure, but the difference is in how the change was brought into the world. Gloranthans would know if XYZ was "revealed" by (solution 1) this obscure person who just showed up one day and convinced the High Prest that this was true, or by (solution 2) a 10 year long campaign  from a large faction of people who may or may not have acted in secret but, still, took 10 years to achieve this. I'm asking from world-building / adventure-writing point of view.

[Darius West]

On 1/28/2020 at 1:11 AM, Tindalos said:

That's something that's changed explicitly, spirits of retribution can change equally (Yelmalio obviously wouldn't have Monrogh in places untouched by the Monrogh doctrine), the Yoskati and Reflartings may belong to many different cults.

On the whole, spirits of retribution are quite specific to their cult.  My point was that the different spirits of ret are indicative of a different religion operating.  I did like your Monrogh Doctrine pun though.