Human sacrifice and other dark rituals in Orlanthi culture

[Sir_Godspeed]

3 hours ago, Eff said:

To this we can add Grazelanders and vendref, a relationship I'm still not sure is easy to model. 

I'm not sure if we have an easy and convenient shorthand for it, but the idea of a conquering military elite turning the conquered population into a serf class does seem to be something that pops up fairly often in RW history, although I admit with a lot of variety and a tendency to collapse after a while. 

The main difference might be that in this case the "conquered" were the immigrants, and the "conquerors" were the natives.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

I meant where do we see indications of thralls in Heortland since you noted "Heortlanders".

The Sambari tribe immigrated to the Quivin Mountains from Heortland, and they are known for having a hand in the slave trade. This implies that there are non-Hendriki clans and tribes in Heortland that practice slavery.

This isn't really surprising. In the fifth century, the Hendriki king Aventus recognized various non-Hendriki "foreigners" living in Heortland, making the ruling Hendriki at best the dominating minority. And then the Hendriki got a taste for overlordship in the Adjustment Wars in Esrolia, and enough were expelled and returned to Heortland when the Grandmothers struck back.

[Ali the Helering]

Thralls are the lowest class of person, mere slaves without any legal status at all. They are considered to be their owner’s property, as if an alynx, cow, or horse, and are not identified as people. Among the Dragon Pass Orlanthi, the status is recognized, but has long been out of favor in most clans, especially to emphasize their love of freedom. Most thralls are debt slaves, other criminals, and occasionally recalcitrant war prisoners. The children of Orlanthi slaves are not slaves, and are adopted into the clan that owns the mother.

Guide to Glorantha page 33.

This gives no indication either way for clans outside Dragon Pass.  However, I would read the third sentence to imply that DP Orlanthi are unusual in their emphasis on freedom.  MGWV

[Sir_Godspeed]

7 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

This gives no indication either way for clans outside Dragon Pass.  However, I would read the third sentence to imply that DP Orlanthi are unusual in their emphasis on freedom.  MGWV

That sorta makes sense. Mountains valleys versus the heavily agrarian flatlands of Seshnela/Ralios on the one side, and Peloria on the other, makes for a more lucrative slave trade, one would imagine.

[Akhôrahil]

23 hours ago, Eff said:

To this we can add Grazelanders and vendref, a relationship I'm still not sure is easy to model. 

It seems like a situation where slaves managed to turn themselves into serfs, with limited but not non-existent rights?

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It seems like a situation where slaves managed to turn themselves into serfs, with limited but not non-existent rights?

yeah, it's where ergeshi were moderated into a serf class, perhaps due to the deep influence of the Orlanthis - they intermarried with Tarshites a lot, and keeping massive numbers of Tarshite-descended or -captured actual field slaves would likely have been eased into "well maybe we can just let them be serfs, cheaper anyway"

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

yeah, it's where ergeshi were moderated into a serf class, perhaps due to the deep influence of the Orlanthis - they intermarried with Tarshites a lot, and keeping massive numbers of Tarshite-descended or -captured actual field slaves would likely have been eased into "well maybe we can just let them be serfs, cheaper anyway"

With the strategic alliance with the FHQ that seems like it was a big part of propelling her to prominence. Basically "Hi, we can be your power base if you act a bit in our interests".

[Eff]

20 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It seems like a situation where slaves managed to turn themselves into serfs, with limited but not non-existent rights?

Well, the big question would be "do vendref have their own communities (the Lakota and Mandan/Arikara relationship) or are Pure Pony People and vendref in the same communities within the Grazelands (something more similar to slavery on the Eurasian steppes)?"

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, Eff said:

Well, the big question would be "do vendref have their own communities (the Lakota and Mandan/Arikara relationship) or are Pure Pony People and vendref in the same communities within the Grazelands (something more similar to slavery on the Eurasian steppes)?"

I get the impression that they run their own villages - this at least seems to be the implication of "The Other Side of the Dragon" in Sartar Rising. That plot could never work out otherwise.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[dumuzid]

I've been interested in those grim, ostensibly vendref Humakti who've guarded all the Feathered Horse Queens ever since I first read of them.  The suggestion of a sort of sword-guerilla movement within the vendref populace that stepped into the open when the first FHQ's struggle presented an opportunity is terribly intriguing.

[Qizilbashwoman]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

I get the impression that they run their own villages

For sure they must have their own infrastructure, and the Grazers just live on the outside as protectors and lords. We know that they are permitted to worship the Earth cults, but not Orlanth - as dumuzid points out, apparently Humakt is acceptable, and likely Barntar and maybe even Heler. Contact with outside groups is certainly proscribed and they are going to be kept isolated, poor, and unarmed.

I don't know how the Grazers manage the ongoing domination of the people. Historically this is done through numerical advantage, siphoning the strongest of the youth, and cruelty, but there can also be religious control. If the FHQ has convinced the vendref of Her sanctity and can offer some reward for service? That usually sells it to the young men and women.

[Leingod]

From what I've read, I've gotten the impression that the Grazers rule with a fairly light hand these days; so long as proper tribute is paid, the vendref are left alone to do their work. The Grazers themselves likely credit this solely to the Feathered Horse Queen's influence, as a way to avoid acknowledging the fact that the vendref have used every means at their disposal to ensure better treatment over the years. King of Sartar mentions the vendref have historically resisted in ways both violent (assisting foreign invaders, or even inviting their Orlanthi cousins in to invade) and non-violent (packing up and moving somewhere else en masse) when the Grazers went too far.

Add to that, the vendref have made themselves vital to contemporary Grazelands society and enriched themselves in the process by doing work (namely farming and trade) the Grazers think themselves too good for but are now too appreciative of the fruits of to want to go without. Essentially, the Grazers continue to claim the vendref as slaves, and the vendref don't dispute that, but they're more like a separate caste than anything these days, with their own rights and restrictions and with a certain amount of potential for upward mobility. And like most caste systems, however unfairly the hierarchy might be arranged, at the end of the day they're mutually dependent on each other for the functioning of their society. The vendref have even managed to work at least one of their gods directly into the Grazer pantheon: Kanestal One-Hand, the vendref Issaries, is named as the slave treasurer of Yu-Kargzant in King of Sartar.

[Akhôrahil]

6 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I don't know how the Grazers manage the ongoing domination of the people. Historically this is done through numerical advantage, siphoning the strongest of the youth, and cruelty

This is a good point, especially in the context of "niceness" in this thread. You don't keep an entire people enslaved by being nice about it. 

[Ali the Helering]

40 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This is a good point, especially in the context of "niceness" in this thread. You don't keep an entire people enslaved by being nice about it. 

Another method of great historicity is to convince the slaves that they don't deserve any better, that they are fulfilling the role destiny holds for them.  By being the best slave they can be they might be rewarded a) in heaven or b) in their next incarnation.

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, Ali the Helering said:

Another method of great historicity is to convince the slaves that they don't deserve any better, that they are fulfilling the role destiny holds for them.  By being the best slave they can be they might be rewarded a) in heaven or b) in their next incarnation.

Are there any examples of this working for actual slaves (as opposed to merely downtrodden peasants)? Besides, it's not something likely to work in the theistic parts of Glorantha...

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, Qizilbashwoman said:

I don't know how the Grazers manage the ongoing domination of the people. Historically this is done through numerical advantage, siphoning the strongest of the youth, and cruelty, but there can also be religious control. If the FHQ has convinced the vendref of Her sanctity and can offer some reward for service?

Sinc the FHQ is an incarnation of Ernalda upon the Earth, it seems likely that the vendref end up honoring the Earth deities, and in return gain her (and Ernalda's) favors and blessings.  They gain peace and prosperity, and the FHQ directs the sun-oriented Grazers outward to keep the land peaceful and riches coming in.

[Leingod]

Plus the vendref themselves are militarily dependent on the Grazers for protection. Outside the elite Humakti bodyguards that serve the Feathered Horse Queen they're banned from worshiping warlike gods, and it's been noted in text that the major difference between vendref and Sartarite villages is that the former are completely unfortified. Without the Grazers, the vendref would be vulnerable to attack from pretty much all of their neighbors, many of whom would no doubt enslave them or sell them as slaves.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Leingod

[Bren]

Do vendref self-select to worship Humakt or are the Grazers choosing particular children to train up as elite warriors?

Are these elite Humakti bodyguards similar to real world Jainissaries?

[Ali the Helering]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Are there any examples of this working for actual slaves (as opposed to merely downtrodden peasants)? Besides, it's not something likely to work in the theistic parts of Glorantha...

Yes there are.  However, given that this involves citing several living cultures and subsections thereof that are frequently both numerous and vociferous, and having had my fill of threats and hate over the years, I will leave you to do your own digging on this one.  Sorry, but I have been physically attacked for answering such questions before. 

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, Bren said:

Do vendref self-select to worship Humakt or are the Grazers choosing particular children to train up as elite warriors?

Are these elite Humakti bodyguards similar to real world Jainissaries?

My personal guess would be that the cult goes around selecting promising candidates, and that only then is there any weapons practice (weapon training can't possibly be legal among the general population). Enforcing severing makes sense to me as well, since you absolutely don't want your excellent killers to have any kinship with the oppressed population.

Janissaries might not be a bad idea, although this would be very early ones who haven't grabbed the power yet.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Eff]

I strongly suspect that the Feathered Horse Queen's bodyguards are selected primarily if not solely from vendref. But that gets into the question of just where the Feathered Horse Queen comes from and what political power really looks like in the Grazelands. 

(Certainly, the Luminous Stallion King seems about as important as actual stallions are to horse herders in the RW.)

[Akhôrahil]

11 hours ago, Eff said:

I strongly suspect that the Feathered Horse Queen's bodyguards are selected primarily if not solely from vendref. But that gets into the question of just where the Feathered Horse Queen comes from and what political power really looks like in the Grazelands. 

(Certainly, the Luminous Stallion King seems about as important as actual stallions are to horse herders in the RW.)

Bigtime power struggle where the FHQ came out on top. She's certainly more important now than the LSK.

"Eneera Tor (born 1430, Feathered Horse Queen 1455 to 1535, Queen of Dragon Pass 1494 to 1535). Eneera was born around 1430 and emerged from the womb of the Earth Goddess around 1455 as the Feathered Horse Queen. For the next fifteen years she fought to assert her authority and in 1570 she crushed the king of Grazers. The next Sun King submitted to her (the version presented in Pure Horse People tales preserves as much dignity for the Sun King as is possible, but in truth he was humiliated and forced to acknowledge her as his suzerain).In 1594, Eneera Tor proved she was the incarnation of Sorana Tor (and thus the avatar of Kero Fin) when she married Prince Sartar and became the Queen of Dragon Pass."

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/feathered-horse-queen-dynasty/

It seems that her power rests on the twin but related pillars of being an incarnation of Kero Fin/embodiment of sovereign power in Dragon Pass, and the patron of the Vendref (who know they could have it a whole lot worse and actually have something to lose now).

[Eff]

2 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Bigtime power struggle where the FHQ came out on top. She's certainly more important now than the LSK.

"Eneera Tor (born 1430, Feathered Horse Queen 1455 to 1535, Queen of Dragon Pass 1494 to 1535). Eneera was born around 1430 and emerged from the womb of the Earth Goddess around 1455 as the Feathered Horse Queen. For the next fifteen years she fought to assert her authority and in 1570 she crushed the king of Grazers. The next Sun King submitted to her (the version presented in Pure Horse People tales preserves as much dignity for the Sun King as is possible, but in truth he was humiliated and forced to acknowledge her as his suzerain).In 1594, Eneera Tor proved she was the incarnation of Sorana Tor (and thus the avatar of Kero Fin) when she married Prince Sartar and became the Queen of Dragon Pass."

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/feathered-horse-queen-dynasty/

It seems that her power rests on the twin but related pillars of being an incarnation of Kero Fin/embodiment of sovereign power in Dragon Pass, and the patron of the Vendref (who know they could have it a whole lot worse and actually have something to lose now).

Well, I sort of meant that in a broader historical forces sense. What are the forces working in Dragon Pass that Eneera was able to take away the avatarship of the Sorana Tor priestesses of Tarsh? What does it mean that the Grazelands are now the metaphysical center of Dragon Pass? Was Eneera a Pure Horse Woman or a vendref before she had her third birth? Does the triumph of the Feathered Horse Queen represent a sort of political alliance between the disfavored of the Grazelands, the women of the Pure Horse People and the vendref (and possibly other subalterns within the PHP)?

For that matter, how did she crush the Sun King and reduce him to a mere stud breeder figurehead? Did she fight him on Solar terms (her title is very suggestive, because it suggests she was able to do what the Red Goddess did at Seven Horses and demonstrate sufficient mastery of horses so as to manifest their heritage as birds) and thus perhaps prove the injustice of the Grazelands? Did she fight him outside these Solar terms, via Earth or perhaps even outside of elemental associations entirely?

Whatever happened, the victory that emerged is one where Pure Horse People remain on top for now, but the vendref control commerce. And in the world that is emerging at the start of the Hero Wars, commerce would be the stronger force. So perhaps the first Feathered Horse Queen won a slow victory in the longue duree, or would have done so if not for the Hero Wars disrupting any clear sense of what will emerge.

[Akhôrahil]

21 minutes ago, Eff said:

Whatever happened, the victory that emerged is one where Pure Horse People remain on top for now, but the vendref control commerce. And in the world that is emerging at the start of the Hero Wars, commerce would be the stronger force. So perhaps the first Feathered Horse Queen won a slow victory in the longue duree, or would have done so if not for the Hero Wars disrupting any clear sense of what will emerge.

Yes, it's easy to see how the situation could be shaky - the Pure Horse People have the military power, but they're becoming increasingly reliant on extracting resources from a more "productive" class (the whole Pure Horse thing only works because they found this economic workaround). The rise of the FHQ could be interpreted as a first step here, combining the political/economic power from the Vendref with the magical power of Earth as opposed to Sun. It's a contradiction that can't easily be overcome. The Pure Horse People must be feeling very itchy, realizing what might happen if a foreign Orlanthi power marched in and attempted to raise their Vendref kin in a war of liberation. "Marry the FHQ to be King of Dragon Pass" could even be seen as a self-defence mechanism, ensuring an alliance with whatever Orlanthi power is dominant at the time.

I would be very interested to learn how the struggle played out, though - this being Glorantha, there may not even be any sharp lines between political/economic/magical struggles. You could have a magical challenge and a Vendref sit-in.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Akhôrahil

[Sir_Godspeed]

10 hours ago, Eff said:

And in the world that is emerging at the start of the Hero Wars, commerce would be the stronger force

Is it though? Kinda seems like trade is going to go the way of the dodo once the veritable apocalypse starts. At least for a while.