What is spirit magic, exactly?

[gochie]

So I'm going through all the rules and modifying whatever I don't like or can't explain logically. One such thing is spirit magic; What in the gods' names are spirit spells and how exactly do they happen? 

The spirit magic intro is extremely vague and doesn't make any sense when trying to explain it to a new player. Do spirits actually show up and perform these effects? Definitely not. Then what? What spiritual energy is there other than a straight up spirit? 

Please explain to me how any of it makes sense (or make something up) before I completely destroy/rewrite spirit magic for my table! 

 

[Pheres]

I am not sure to well understand your query... Why do you want to change spirit magic?

I have read that initially, perhaps before the time come, there was only one kind of way to access magic.

An event occur and broke it into several type, i am not sure, but i think that it's linked to when the Spike was broken.

After that access to magic used differents ways, the sorcery one, the runic one and the spirit one (i have read that others can exist)...

As i understand it, spirit magic is linked to the inner spirit power of the magician, where other type of magic can be linked to other powers, runes spells are linked to Runes, for exemple.

I don't think that spirit magic take its source from the spirit world, yes, spirits can use spirit magic, but from my point of view it's just because spirits have inner power and because it's easiest for them to use spirit magic, in general, than other form of magic...

[Sumath]

What do we know about spirit magic (and apologies because its been a while since I've read the spirit magic or shamans chapters)?

Shamans (or priests) have to find spirits to obtain the knowledge of each particular spell - so a spell is either knowledge of an effect or an ability known to an inhabitant of the spirit world that is able to affect the middle world. In other words a spell is either:

• The use of knowledge imparted by a spirit to draw upon and manipulate one's own reservoir of spiritual energy to produce a particular effect in the Middle World - this seems the most likely candidate from what we are told about spirit magic.
• The effects of a spirit acting (on demand) to bring about an effect using its abilities (like a Sandestin in Vancian magic) with the effect either powered using the spellcaster's power, or with the spirit briefly summoned (using the spellcaster's power) to use its own power - in this case the spell knowledge is the ability to impel a spirit to generate the effect from the Spirit World into the Middle World. This seems convoluted and much less likely from the examples given.

If we then assume that the first option is how spirit magic works - that spells are methods of manipulating one's inherent magical power - then it is clear that the term 'spirit' in spirit magic is largely referencing the soul of the caster, rather than the invocation of other spirits (apart from when learning spells, of course).

[soltakss]

5 hours ago, gochie said:

So I'm going through all the rules and modifying whatever I don't like or can't explain logically. One such thing is spirit magic; What in the gods' names are spirit spells and how exactly do they happen? 

Spirit Magic used to be called Battle Magic in RQ2. It is minor magic that you learn and can cast to give you minor effects.

You learn Spirit Magic from a Priest or a Shaman, either can teach the spirit Magic spells they know.

Casting a Spirit Magic spell means rolling POWx5% or below, success means you lose the Magic Points indicated in the spell's description.

Some spells are Variable, which means you learn various strengths of the spell. so, you could learn Bladesharp 1 or Bladesharp 4. If you have a Variable spell then you can cast it at up to its stated amount, so someone with Heal 6 could cast Heal 4 to heal a 4 point wound. If you have a variable spell, you can learn extra points of the spell, but each point has to be paid for, so someone with Heal 4 could learn Heal 6 but would have to pay for learning 2 spells (effectively Heal 5 and Heal 6) although the spell is learned as one spell. 

Some spells are commonly available, some are restricted to a Cult or special School. It is normally forbidden to teach a cult special spell to non-cultists, although this could happen on HeroQuests and as a special reward.

5 hours ago, gochie said:

The spirit magic intro is extremely vague and doesn't make any sense when trying to explain it to a new player. Do spirits actually show up and perform these effects? Definitely not.

That is a similar mechanic to spirit Magic in Mythras, which is different.

Spirit Magic in RQG is more like Folk Magic or Common Magic in games such as Mythras or Legend.

5 hours ago, gochie said:

What spiritual energy is there other than a straight up spirit? 

Spirit Magic is powered by Magic Points, which are related to your POW. Your POW is effectively your Spirit, so that is why they are called Spirit Magic.

The earlier term was Battle Magic, but that didn't work for non-combat spells or spells cast out of battle situations.

5 hours ago, gochie said:

Please explain to me how any of it makes sense (or make something up) before I completely destroy/rewrite spirit magic for my table! 

I wouldn't read too much into the name. These are spells that you learn and can cast using Magic Points by rolling POWx5%. That is pretty much all your Players need to know, except for the descriptions of the spells.

[Shiningbrow]

2 hours ago, Sumath said:

If we then assume that the first option is how spirit magic works - that spells are methods of manipulating one's inherent magical power - then it is clear that the term 'spirit' in spirit magic is largely referencing the soul of the caster, rather than the invocation of other spirits (apart from when learning spells, of course)

Given you need POW to be able to cast Spirit magic, and undead (e.g., vampires) can't cast Spirit magic, that makes a lot of sense!

[jajagappa]

8 hours ago, gochie said:

What in the gods' names are spirit spells and how exactly do they happen? 

What spiritual energy is there other than a straight up spirit?

The Spirit World is a place of spirits and energy that is coterminous with the real world, yet distinct.  (See RQG p.371: The Spirit World)  As noted on p.253 this is the place of the "natural energy currents of the world."

Most people cannot interact with the Spirit World directly even though it is there and around you (perhaps think of it like Dark Matter?). But you can learn (through communication with spirits provided by temples or shamans) how to focus your mind in order to tap into that inherent energy to force a temporary change in reality.

As it says on p.253 "An adventurer’s POW is the measure of their ability to affect the universe by force of will. The amount of magic points an adventurer can expend is equal to their POW. Of course, with no knowledge of spells, this POW can only be used to resist other forces. It cannot cause a magical effect in and of itself."

So you've got all this spiritual energy all around (though you cannot see it with normal sight). And because you are living and have a life force, you have some small ability to make a change to the world through that force. 

What you need in order to force that magical change is knowledge of: 1) how to use your will to draw on the spiritual energy for a specific purpose (a spell); and 2) how to direct the energy to make a specific change (a focus). 

Generally, you learn both from spirits that you have contact with. The spirit teaches you how to pull that spiritual energy to you. Then it teaches you how to focus that energy (faster if there is a symbol for you to look at, slower if you're forming the image in your mind) and finally how to release it. 

Once imparted to you, the spirit returns to its world, but you retain the knowledge of how to manipulate that spiritual energy for that particular spirit spell, and a focus for manipulating the energy to complete the spell.

Edited February 22, 2020 by jajagappa

[Dissolv]

I always just thought of Spirt/Battle magic as a spell that you learn and cast yourself using your own knowledge and spiritual force.    It is dwarfed in power by Rune Magic, which comes from the gods, but everyone, ever where can access and use Spirit Magic. 

I don't recall ever reading where it originally came from, but it is one of the features of Glorantha that it is so permeated by magic that even the farmers know a couple of spells. 

[PhilHibbs]

Spirit Magic is a game mechanic that imperfectly describes certain low level Gloranthan magics, as do all game mechanics. I would not try to read too much into Gloranthan reality from the RuneQuest game mechanics.

[gochie]

Alright, so it's my bad then. Although I will place some blame on the spirit magic chapter that describes it as:

"communication with the spirits that reside in the natural energy currents of the world and is practiced in one form or another by nearly every Gloranthan culture and religion. To cast a spirit magic spell, the caster concentrates upon the spirits they have a focus with and temporarily alters the spiritual energy currents to create an effect."

I guess the name Spirit Magic, the fact that you learn spells from spirits, and that description made me think the magic actually came directly from spirits, somehow.

So to conclude, everyone in Glorantha (with POW) is like Harry Potter, and has an innate ability to perform minor magic with a wa... Foci.

Cool, thanks everyone! 

[jajagappa]

33 minutes ago, gochie said:

I guess the name Spirit Magic, the fact that you learn spells from spirits, and that description made me think the magic actually came directly from spirits, somehow.

I think much of the confusion comes from the RQ2/RQ3 heritage.

As @soltakss noted, in the old RQ2, this magic was called Battle Magic. Not quite right since much of it is relevant outside of battle.

RQ2 p.34: "Battle magic involves the forceful alteration of the fabric of reality by use of one’s POW. For this reason, battle magic spells, while powerful, are of short duration (usually two minutes) and drain a good deal of energy in the form of POW points from the user. However strong a mortal may be, he lacks the POW to make long lasting changes in the basic stuff of the Universe." [Note there were no Magic Points in RQ2, just "temporary" POW.]

But RQ2 never quite described "how" you got the spells - just that you went to the temple (or a shaman) to learn them.  Nor did it particularly describe "how" your spell particularly manipulated the world to achieve the result.

RQ3 took a couple added steps. 1) Changed the name of this magic to Spirit Magic; and 2) specifically identified "Spell" Spirits as the origin of learning the magic. In this case, your temple or shaman had to find/contact the "right" type of spirit and it would transmit its knowledge of the spell to you.   IIRC it did not explicitly state anything on what the actual spell casting did.

But moving into the RQG world, we've retained the name and the basic concept that you do contact spirits to learn how to cast these spells. Only in the case of actually "binding" a spirit to an enchantment though will the magic actually come directly from a spirit. Otherwise, it's all from your character's will (i.e. POW/MP) and whether that's high enough to force a temporary change upon the real world.

[jajagappa]

46 minutes ago, gochie said:

So to conclude, everyone in Glorantha (with POW) is like Harry Potter, and has an innate ability to perform minor magic with a wa... Foci.

That you do! 

And that was actually one of the major features that sold me on Glorantha years ago.

[gochie]

19 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I think much of the confusion comes from the RQ2/RQ3 heritage.

As @soltakss noted, in the old RQ2, this magic was called Battle Magic. Not quite right since much of it is relevant outside of battle.

RQ2 p.34: "Battle magic involves the forceful alteration of the fabric of reality by use of one’s POW. For this reason, battle magic spells, while powerful, are of short duration (usually two minutes) and drain a good deal of energy in the form of POW points from the user. However strong a mortal may be, he lacks the POW to make long lasting changes in the basic stuff of the Universe." [Note there were no Magic Points in RQ2, just "temporary" POW.]

But RQ2 never quite described "how" you got the spells - just that you went to the temple (or a shaman) to learn them.  Nor did it particularly describe "how" your spell particularly manipulated the world to achieve the result.

RQ3 took a couple added steps. 1) Changed the name of this magic to Spirit Magic; and 2) specifically identified "Spell" Spirits as the origin of learning the magic. In this case, your temple or shaman had to find/contact the "right" type of spirit and it would transmit its knowledge of the spell to you.   IIRC it did not explicitly state anything on what the actual spell casting did.

But moving into the RQG world, we've retained the name and the basic concept that you do contact spirits to learn how to cast these spells. Only in the case of actually "binding" a spirit to an enchantment though will the magic actually come directly from a spirit. Otherwise, it's all from your character's will (i.e. POW/MP) and whether that's high enough to force a temporary change upon the real world.

The history explains a lot, especially the fact that this knowledge first came from (spell) spirits.

Thanks! 

[Darius West]

15 hours ago, gochie said:

So I'm going through all the rules and modifying whatever I don't like or can't explain logically. One such thing is spirit magic; What in the gods' names are spirit spells and how exactly do they happen? 

The spirit magic intro is extremely vague and doesn't make any sense when trying to explain it to a new player. Do spirits actually show up and perform these effects? Definitely not. Then what? What spiritual energy is there other than a straight up spirit? 

Please explain to me how any of it makes sense (or make something up) before I completely destroy/rewrite spirit magic for my table! 

Spirit magic is a collection of small spells that some spirits can teach you, and which you power using your own spirit (i.e. Magic Points).  In previous versions of the game there was a divine spell called Spell teaching that would allow Priests to give people new spells.  In RQ3 shamans could capture spell spirits that would provide specific values of spells, and the names of which the shaman could remember and use again later.  RQG doesn't presently include any rules about this afaik.

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, gochie said:

So to conclude, everyone in Glorantha (with POW) is like Harry Potter, and has an innate ability to perform minor magic with a wa... Foci.

Cool, thanks everyone! 

Correct. Glorantha is not everyone's cup of tea, and the ubiquity of magic is one of the reasons. For others, it's one of the major attractions. If you want to call our characters Harry Potters, fine. I won't rise to it.

[g33k]

8 hours ago, gochie said:

 ... So to conclude, everyone in Glorantha (with POW) is like Harry Potter, and has an innate ability to perform minor magic with a wa... Foci.

Almost.

Everyone with POW has an innate ability to learn minor (Spirit-type) magic (which typically includes knowledge of how to craft a focus)...

... and to cast any spells they know...

... but if they never learn any magic, they cannot perform any magic!

 

[Richard S.]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

Almost.

Everyone with POW has an innate ability to learn minor (Spirit-type) magic (which typically includes knowledge of how to craft a focus)...

... and to cast any spells they know...

... but if they never learn any magic, they cannot perform any magic!

 

To be fair, I could see an argument for Rune augments being a form of very minor magic. So even if you don't know spells, you're still a little magical.

[Glorion]

13 hours ago, gochie said:

Alright, so it's my bad then. Although I will place some blame on the spirit magic chapter that describes it as:

"communication with the spirits that reside in the natural energy currents of the world and is practiced in one form or another by nearly every Gloranthan culture and religion. To cast a spirit magic spell, the caster concentrates upon the spirits they have a focus with and temporarily alters the spiritual energy currents to create an effect."

I guess the name Spirit Magic, the fact that you learn spells from spirits, and that description made me think the magic actually came directly from spirits, somehow.

So to conclude, everyone in Glorantha (with POW) is like Harry Potter, and has an innate ability to perform minor magic with a wa... Foci.

Cool, thanks everyone! 

Actually, that's exactly right. No Muggles on Glorantha! Spirit magic is magic that you perform with the mana of your very own spirit, your own inherent magical nature as a Gloranthan. The spirits jmerely teach you how. Rune Magic is from your connection with the divine, sorcery from your mental understanding of the inherent magics omnipresent in Glorantha which you learn to manipulate.