Kallyr's Dragonrise heroquest

[Stephen L]

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

But everything and anything is ultimately expendable.

If Argrath's focus is Pavis at the time, then perhaps he's less worried about a Dragon gobbling up Sartar.  However, its still very risky, as the temple/dragon site isn't that far away!

[Akhôrahil]

18 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If this is truly Argrath's attitude, I sure hope our PCs pick it up **before** we invite him back in glory to be Prince of Sartar.

One of the big questions of The Great Argrath Campaign is always going to be ”why are we supporting this asshole, again?”

[Jeff]

44 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

One of the big questions of The Great Argrath Campaign is always going to be ”why are we supporting this asshole, again?”

I think that says more about you than the fictional character.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

I think that says more about you than the fictional character.

I'm not saying there won't be an answer - there are any number that can be imagined. "He seems to be the only one who can stand up against the Lunars at the moment, so we will just have to tolerate the rest." "I got pulled into a debt of gratitude." "I got manipulated into this, what you do?" "He critted a social roll against my PC, so the PC is convinced." "Hey, I approve of what he does, I wish we could have killed all the Telmori and made clothing out of their skins long ago!"

I would expect my players to draw the line at genocide if not before that, though.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[Rodney Dangerduck]

6 hours ago, Jeff said:

I think that says more about you than the fictional character.

Will there be more material coming out (hopefully soon) describing, and showing, the positive aspects of Argrath as of 1626-1627?  Much of the existing material, e.g., the list of his close companions, is off-putting, and I think some players ~~overreact~~ react negatively to that.

Or, please point me to some of the existing positive material.  Thanks.

Edited December 5, 2020 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Ian Absentia]

4 hours ago, Jeff said:

I think that says more about you than the fictional character.

As my mother would tut-tut me in my youth, "I imply, you infer."  Plenty of blame to go around. 🙂

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Much of the existing material, e.g., the list of his close companions, is off-putting, and I think some players overreact negatively to that.

Or, to be fair, simply react.  Argrath, as an agent of world-spanning paradigm shift is proving to be a very polarising character.  Are we surprised by this?  As readers?  As writers?  After several decades of assuming him to be a hero and redeemer, yeah, finally watching the sausage being made is jarring.

!I!

Edited December 5, 2020 by Ian Absentia

[Jeff]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Will there be more material coming out (hopefully soon) describing, and showing, the positive aspects of Argrath as of 1626-1627?  Much of the existing material, e.g., the list of his close companions, is off-putting, and I think some players ~~overreact~~ react negatively to that.

Or, please point me to some of the existing positive material.  Thanks.

Argrath manages to unify a Sartar that was on the brink of civil war, defeat the Lunar Empire, turn enemies into allies, protect merchants - including Lunar merchants - and restore trade, marries the Feathered Horse Queen, and unifies Earth and Air. He develops new ways for the cults to cooperate that puts them on an even footing with the Lunar Empire, and is the most effective foe the Lunar Empire has ever had (including Sheng Seleris, and definitely more than Jannisor or Yarandros). He's viewed even by his enemies as honourable and learned in a wide range of subjects. All of that is in King of Sartar and the Sourcebook, as well as WBRM. Heck even Sir Ethilrist is impressed with him.

He's also got lots of unsettling aspects - frex, his draconic allies, his friendship with Harrek the Berserk and Gunda the Guilty, Jaldon Goldentooth, and not to mention his Arkati-style heroquesting, but he's an Alexander figure. He is going to be breaking a lot of eggs.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

@Jeff Wonderful answer, thanks.

I think the issue some are facing is that, in the ~1626 timeframe, his wonderful good accomplishments are as yet unknown, awaiting the uncertain future.  And his unsettling aspects are all too apparent in the present.  Most groups and GMs should be able to work through it.

[Akhôrahil]

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I think the issue some are facing is that, in the ~1626 timeframe, his wonderful good accomplishments are as yet unknown, awaiting the uncertain future.  And his unsettling aspects are all too apparent in the present.  Most groups and GMs should be able to work through it.

I think The Eleven Lights does a really great job here - when Argrath turns up, he's a real weirdo, and his pals are even worse, and they're obviously going to be trouble, and no sensible Red Cow PC would ever accept a mission from him. Except that the situation is utterly dire and you're grasping for straws just in order to survive, which is of course why he turned up now when you have little choice. 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Akhôrahil

[jajagappa]

12 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

And his unsettling aspects are all too apparent in the present.

But are they really?  Most Sartarites would only know that he helped defeat the Lunars at Pennel Ford, and might connect him to the liberation of Orlanth.  They may have heard that he liberated Pavis, or saved Pavis from the nomads.  They might have heard that he has gathered strange allies with unusual magics or powers.  Whether that's a good or bad thing is still yet to say.

There may be varied other rumors about him, but he is still a largely unknown quantity.  At the end of 1626/start of 1627 though he helps liberate Alda-Chur and the Far Place from the Lunars.  So he may be seen as a pro-Sartar/anti-Lunar force at that point.  

[Jeff]

51 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

But are they really?  Most Sartarites would only know that he helped defeat the Lunars at Pennel Ford, and might connect him to the liberation of Orlanth.  They may have heard that he liberated Pavis, or saved Pavis from the nomads.  They might have heard that he has gathered strange allies with unusual magics or powers.  Whether that's a good or bad thing is still yet to say.

There may be varied other rumors about him, but he is still a largely unknown quantity.  At the end of 1626/start of 1627 though he helps liberate Alda-Chur and the Far Place from the Lunars.  So he may be seen as a pro-Sartar/anti-Lunar force at that point.  

He's also a proclaimed heir to the House of Sartar with about as good (or slender) a lineage as Kallyr. In 1625, he's probably pretty exciting. So is Kallyr. In early 1627, there is a lot more trepidation, in large part because Kallyr's reign ended so badly.

[Ian Absentia]

3 hours ago, jajagappa said:

But are they really?  Most Sartarites would only know...

I think the point is that many readers are finding the emerging depiction of Argrath unsettling.  There's a disconnect between how he's being revealed in print, including the negatives, and how he's received in the historical narrative.  We're seeing events taking place behind the curtain, as it were.

!I!

Edited December 6, 2020 by Ian Absentia
"Revealed"?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Most Sartarites would only know that he helped defeat the Lunars at Pennel Ford

Thanks for pointing this out, valid point.  But his participation was apparently so forgettable that our group, who has been trying to figure out "which PCs have ever met or seen Argrath?" had completely forgotten this.  We all remembered Broyan, Samastina, Harrek, Harrek, or possibly Harrek.  This may help our reaction to him though - several of the PCs "fought with great distinction" at Pennel Ford.  Thanks.

 

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

Kallyr's reign ended so badly.

Her life ended badly (or heroically???).  One could argue that her reign ended o.k. - Lunars driven from most of Sartar and in civil war.  If the stupid troglodyte Tribal chiefs had elected the boring, manipulative, but extremely competent Leika, things could be pretty good for Sartar.

Your point that there is some trepidation about the House of Sartar is important, enlightening, and interesting.  Is it time for a "Glorious Revolution"?
 

[Frp]

Argrath does seem a bit off. And if he weren't he'd be the first major Gloranthan hero that wasn't. 

[dumuzid]

He helped a character of mine achieve Draconic illumination, I've got no real gripes with the guy.

[Leingod]

I mean, Sartar himself was a weird magician espousing strange ideas and cooperating with peoples the Quivini hated - he made an alliance with the Telmori, who'd destroyed multiple clans and tribes, and he married a Horse-Spawn, just to name the two big ones. It came with the territory of being a Larnsting.

So, Argrath being a weird magician espousing strange ideas and with companions and alliances with weird and traditionally hostile peoples? Well, it worked out pretty well the first time, so I can see why a lot of the Sartarites would at least be willing to see where this goes, especially as long as Argrath is winning against the Lunars. All the other people who had or might have ended up in his position (Kallyr, Broyan, Leika, etc.) could only boast mixed successes against them, after all, and while Argrath is due for his own major setbacks later, that's off in the unknown future.

[jajagappa]

40 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Her life ended badly (or heroically???).  One could argue that her reign ended o.k.

But really, really disastrous Sacred Time quest.  And remember that she got many of the tribes to support her in this - so their magic goes all awry.  Bad things happen in 1626.  I'd have evil omens, poor crops, raiding trolls, Chaos, other bad stuff.  And the Battle of the Queens was nearly a disaster save for Leika.  The leaders of the Malani, the Cinsina, the Kheldon (i.e. Kallyr), and possibly Culbrea are all killed, even though the Lunars driven off.  

Nothing overly heroic in that, and most of her companions and allies are dead.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Frp said:

Argrath does seem a bit off. And if he weren't he'd be the first major Gloranthan hero that wasn't. 

In our last campaign, he was the drunkard in the tavern, crying into his mead that he could have been someone if it hadn't been for those River Voices stealing all his glory.

[Jeff]

 

18 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Thanks for pointing this out, valid point.  But his participation was apparently so forgettable that our group, who has been trying to figure out "which PCs have ever met or seen Argrath?" had completely forgotten this.  We all remembered Broyan, Samastina, Harrek, Harrek, or possibly Harrek.  This may help our reaction to him though - several of the PCs "fought with great distinction" at Pennel Ford.  Thanks.

 

Her life ended badly (or heroically???).  One could argue that her reign ended o.k. - Lunars driven from most of Sartar and in civil war.  If the stupid troglodyte Tribal chiefs had elected the boring, manipulative, but extremely competent Leika, things could be pretty good for Sartar.

Your point that there is some trepidation about the House of Sartar is important, enlightening, and interesting.  Is it time for a "Glorious Revolution"?
 

There is great fear in the winter of 1626 and 1627. Sartar is falling apart, and Kallyr's Lightbringer Quest was a disaster. There is nothing to stop the seemingly inevitable reconquest of Sartar - the Red Emperor must merely reach out and it shall collapse. To hope that this outsider and adventurer might withstand the might of the Empire was beyond imagination. And thus it was not with hopeful optimism that Argrath marched into Boldhome with his companions and allies, but with fear and anxiety.

If I recall I included something to this effect in the Appendix to the Guide.

[Scorus]

There are a lot of issues with telling players (and GMs) about what is going to happen in the future. Not the least is the foreshadowing of calling him Argrath well before he has earned the title! King of Sartar is not quite a hagiography, but it certainly doesn't show him warts-and-all any more than early works on Alexander the Great showed how the sausage was made. There will be moments when players have to hold their nose to follow someone like the White Bull, but few Sartarites would compare him poorly to the Lunar Empire and success can paper over a whole lot! The fact that we already know what happens diminishes his successes. For those who go through the chaos and near helplessness of 1627 and really feel that the end is nigh, Argrath's successes look like miracles and not just events.

There are elements of character creation that can ally players with the White Bull. Most groups are likely to have had a player at the Jaldon Goldentooth summoning in 1624 and come away with Loyalty to him, so they can lead the cheers in his direction as he takes power. And if your game credits him with forming the Eleven Lights then he deserves a good bit of credit for the Battle of Dangerford. They can point to his liberation of Pavis (and his defeat by Tatius is more forgettable because of the ensuing Dragonrise).

Another factor is their leaders' opinion of him, since they aren't exactly on a 24/7 news cycle! If whatever leader they respect and trust likes or dislikes him, then that is going to be what they hear and is likely to rub off. How do people like Leika, Samastina, etc. feel about him? Admiration? Jealousy? Let's face it, between the memories of Starbrow's Rebellion and the failed heroquest he doesn't have a hard act to follow. Though most credit her with the Dragonrise.

Edited December 7, 2020 by Scorus

[Rodney Dangerduck]

 

2 hours ago, Jeff said:

There is great fear in the winter of 1626 and 1627.

"Now is the winter of our discontent 
Made glorious summer by this son of Sartar"

Sorry, couldn't resist...

The discussion here has been useful in giving me and my character more ideas on how to better assess Argrath, and how to be more openminded.  Thanks everybody.