heroquest knowledge

[French Desperate WindChild]

Thanks to whitebull campaign, I start to understand the future rules of heroquestiong and I think the episode 29 "propose" very nice rules, by the way(of course that s just an overview and some points need to be defined, but it is great.).

 

The question I have is both rp/gp and is about the knowledge characters try to obtain before heroquest (to know what to do in a particular set of circumstances).

I think that to check if the character knows something, we have to do a roll under the right cult lore.

That is nice for an orlanthi (cultist of Orlanth) being Orlanth to roll under Orlanth cult lore.

 

But now.. What about a non orlanthi being Orlanth ?

Let say we have an Issaries cultist who wants (or has to) become Orlanth

I see several options but I would like to know your perspective (and maybe the forthcoming official rules about that, if it is already defined)

- our guy rolls against its own cult lore (Issaries), with malus (-10/20 if the god is associated in the quest, -30/-40 if not ?)

- our guy has access to the other gods cult lore of his god's pantheon (as lay member), so he can learn the right cult lore (Orlanth) like any orlanth cultist. => Being Orlanth must need to roll against Orlanth cult lore

- our guy reads and has access to many documents in great libraries (Nochet, Boldhome, Jonstown, Glamour ....) so he can pursue his own research and learn the right cult lore (Orlanth)=> Being Orlanth must need to roll against Orlanth cult lore

- some other options, or maybe, not use cult lore skill but other ?

 

 

 

 

[soltakss]

12 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- our guy rolls against its own cult lore (Issaries), with malus (-10/20 if the god is associated in the quest, -30/-40 if not ?)

I would roll Cult Lore (Issaries) without a penalty. He will know what Orlanth did on the HeroQuest, as that might be well known, but he might not know why Orlanth did it or the cult secrets around Orlanth's actions.

 

13 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- our guy has access to the other gods cult lore of his god's pantheon (as lay member), so he can learn the right cult lore (Orlanth) like any orlanth cultist. => Being Orlanth must need to roll against Orlanth cult lore

You can, in theory, learn Cult Lore (Orlanth) without belonging to Orlanth, but Orlanthi might not like it. As an Issaries cultist it should be OK. If you have both Cult Lore (Orlanth) and Cult Lore (Issaries) then you have a choice of which to roll. In that case, I would make a single roll and if it is under both skills you know from both points of view, if under Cult Lore (Orlanth) but not Cult Lore (Issaries) then you know the Orlanth knowledge and if below Cult Lore (Issaries) but above Cult Lore (Orlanth) you know it from the point of view of Issaries.

 

16 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- our guy reads and has access to many documents in great libraries (Nochet, Boldhome, Jonstown, Glamour ....) so he can pursue his own research and learn the right cult lore (Orlanth)=> Being Orlanth must need to roll against Orlanth cult lore

Yes, that works as well. You learn about Cult Lore (Orlanth) without being a worshipper. same would apply as above, in my opinion.

16 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

- some other options, or maybe, not use cult lore skill but other ?

You could have Lore (HeroQuest), Lore (Lightbringers) or Lore (Specific HeroQuest) and use the same method as above. 

The alternative is to go in blind and hope for the best. You should have an idea of the myth, so you are not completely blind, but it depends on how well-known the myth is.

 

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I think that to check if the character knows something, we have to do a roll under the right cult lore.

I think there are several options.  Cult Lore for your god is one.  I'd let Devotion to your god or Meditation be options where you seek through prayer or meditation to understand the ways of your god.  Divination spell of course is also an option.

Other Lores may provide clues.  Underworld Lore, Celestial Lore, Spirit Lore, perhaps even Animal or Plant Lore might suggest the interaction of the various world "forces" (aka gods).

And then you can find documents, particularly in various Temples of Knowledge, but also in the palaces of Kings and Princes (King Gormoral of Vanch is known for his library) and in various temples (e.g. Sun Dome temples have the ritual scrolls and books for Yelmalio).  Obviously some of these are very limited or restricted (and may be why you'd like a thief or trickster in your company???).  But obtaining such a document and making a successful R/W roll on the language used should give you some information to work with.

 

[Charles]

Start with the story. Then work out the mechanics.

Issaries is a Lightbringer and is among the key figures of the Orlanth and Ernalda pantheon, so I can't see fundamental religious opposition among Orlanth initiates to this (but there may well be jealousy at a personal level). Issaries is a talker, newsbringer, negotiator, and storyteller, so cultists may well know more than usual among non-Orlanth initiates of the powers and hints of Orlanth's secrets. On the other hand, they absolutely do not know the secrets of Orlanth or of Orlanth's cults.

So I'd suggest that the character can use Cult Lore at a high penalty.

And there should be consequences if they succeed. If they succeed in becoming Orlanth they they pretty much have become an Orlanth cultist afterwards - so that could lead to a lot of interesting stories. And maybe they have also become less of an Issaries cultist but I would suggest that they have not left the Issaries cult, so that could be even more stories.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Charles

[Eff]

Is this Issaries initiate playing Orlanth as the main character, or playing him as part of the supporting cast? The latter probably shouldn't rely on cult secrets, because it's not a story the Orlanth cult preserves, most likely. 

But in that case, I'm not sure how you'd determine their knowledge of the myth and their part in it. Perhaps you could make it all about the Air and/or Movement Runes, having them act on instinct. Alternately, you could give them a temporary and appropriate Cult Lore skill from being instructed. Perhaps at 20%, like a "free" augment. Or make it a characteristic roll involving INT. Or Devotion Passions, or homeland-related Passions. 

[Darius West]

On 1/31/2021 at 3:23 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

But now.. What about a non orlanthi being Orlanth ?

The secrets of Hero Quests are something the tribes themselves guard and trade.  Often clans have practices that differ from those of other clans.

Now, people in an Orlanthi clan are all raised in pantheistic worship of the entire pantheon and have a decent idea about the myths of all the deities as part of their upbringing, and their childhood lay-membership of many deities before they finally chose who to initiate with.  This is not the same as knowing a hero quest's finer details however.

If a hero quest is Orlanth based, then the knowledge will lie with one's clan's Orlanth representative priests and lords.  Will they tell your Issaries merchant what to do?  How is his relationship with them?  Is it good enough that they might perform the hero quest on his behalf?  That would be the preferable outcome.

Any male worshipper might stand in for Orlanth in a Hero Quest, but I would put it to you, not many people will choose to participate in or endorse a hero quest where the main "actor" is not even a cult initiate of the primary participant.  Hero Quests are expensive in wealth and in magic, such that they are an enterprise for a whole community, and if they fail, the ill effects can curse that community for years to come.  Most communities will thus go to a lot of trouble to choose the very best candidate to play a god's role, and to guarantee the very best chance of success they can manage.

I would suggest that the tribe would certainly rush-initiate the Issaries fellow into Orlanth before the HQ.

[soltakss]

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Any male worshipper might stand in for Orlanth in a Hero Quest, but I would put it to you, not many people will choose to participate in or endorse a hero quest where the main "actor" is not even a cult initiate of the primary participant.

It depends on the HeroQuest. Biturian Varosh was forced to play Orlanth in the Three Blows of Anger HeroQuest, even though he was not a worshipper of Orlanth.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

On 1/30/2021 at 4:23 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

But now.. What about a non orlanthi being Orlanth ?

The secrets of Hero Quests are something the tribes themselves guard and trade.  Often clans have practices that differ from those of other clans.

Yes they do and this can be important. Some clans, or bloodlines, carry secrets that nobody else has. This might mean that they know something odd about a HeroQuest station, or have a HeroQuest trick that they can use, or even have a different Station that can be used on a HeroQuest. This could be GM interpretation or something Player-inspired.

 

[Shiningbrow]

24 minutes ago, soltakss said:

It depends on the HeroQuest. Biturian Varosh was forced to play Orlanth in the Three Blows of Anger HeroQuest, even though he was not a worshipper of Orlanth.

One could almost make the case that that's why it failed... 

[French Desperate WindChild]

45 minutes ago, soltakss said:

It depends on the HeroQuest. Biturian Varosh was forced to play Orlanth in the Three Blows of Anger HeroQuest, even though he was not a worshipper of Orlanth.

yes absolutly, it was (without the name I lost) my idea

20 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

One could almost make the case that that's why it failed... 

Yes absolutly, because he/they failed their role / roll (sorry....) but the question is what roll !

[Shiningbrow]

9 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Yes absolutly, because he/they failed their role / roll (sorry....) but the question is what roll !

I believe it was Parry (or Dodge) 😜

Edited February 3, 2021 by Shiningbrow

[Darius West]

On 2/3/2021 at 6:45 PM, soltakss said:

It depends on the HeroQuest. Biturian Varosh was forced to play Orlanth in the Three Blows of Anger HeroQuest, even though he was not a worshipper of Orlanth.

In the case of Biturian Varosh playing Orlanth, the expectation for the Yelmalios was they wanted a weak adversary they could defeat easily.

Edited April 12, 2022 by Darius West

[Jose]

Hi, I am preparing a partial star heart heroquest. And I would like your opinion. When my player pass the Second Son I plan to manage the next stage this way. 

1- take every rune power or form which is above 50 and add it to the pool. You have stasis 75 then add 75 to the pool because Change 25 is weak for you and now is empowered. 

2- divide the pool by the number of empowered Runes you added. For example (75+80+90)/3. That's the number that represent your weakness. 

3- roll cha x 5 or less to get your inspiration bonus. 

4-roll  against weakness number for a bonus as inspiration against you. This is the cosmos testing you. 

5- you have to get 7 Victory points in the resistance table to win. confronting the rune you choose +inspiration + 10 from mastery rune, versus the weakness number+"weakness inspiration" 

If you win you sacrifice 1 Pow or more and get access to the Charisma spell and the passion Star heart as boons

If you fail by 1,2 then  you lose 1 point of POW and 1 point of cha. 3,4 you lose 2 points each. 5,6 3 points + a Fear passion. 7 roll in madness spell table. 

If you are stronger in the beast rune the force confronting you take the humanoid form or if you are an aldryani with high man rune value it takes a plant related form. 

What do you think? 

Edited April 8, 2022 by Jose

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Jose said:

Hi, I am preparing a partial star heart heroquest. And I would like your opinion. When my player pass the Second Son I plan to manage the next stage this way. 

...What do you think? 

It feels very abstract, and not overly memorable.  Sometimes that is ok, but the Star Heart is about courage in the face of the ultimate evil & dissolution of the world, about having to stand alone even when there is no hope.  That should be something the characters take personally, and remember. 

Have you looked at how Andrew Logan Montgomery handled it in Six Seasons in Sartar? 

One way to get it more memorable would be to translate the "weakness" into something personal.  Rather than abstract numbers, flip those over and make this the polar opposite character - that is, they are facing their doppelganger, but the doppelganger has the opposite abilities (where the PC is Change @75%, the doppelganger is Stasis @75%), their characteristics are shuffled, AND the doppelganger has Chaos Features.  Maybe because of a high Beast rune, the doppelganger looks bestial; or with a high Water Rune, they can easily flow into different forms; etc.  And they have to fight the doppelganger alone with the thought that only one of them will return from the fight... 

Their very soul is at stake here.

[Jose]

9 hours ago, jajagappa said:

It feels very abstract, and not overly memorable.  Sometimes that is ok, but the Star Heart is about courage in the face of the ultimate evil & dissolution of the world, about having to stand alone even when there is no hope.  That should be something the characters take personally, and remember. 

Have you looked at how Andrew Logan Montgomery handled it in Six Seasons in Sartar? 

One way to get it more memorable would be to translate the "weakness" into something personal.  Rather than abstract numbers, flip those over and make this the polar opposite character - that is, they are facing their doppelganger, but the doppelganger has the opposite abilities (where the PC is Change @75%, the doppelganger is Stasis @75%), their characteristics are shuffled, AND the doppelganger has Chaos Features.  Maybe because of a high Beast rune, the doppelganger looks bestial; or with a high Water Rune, they can easily flow into different forms; etc.  And they have to fight the doppelganger alone with the thought that only one of them will return from the fight... 

Their very soul is at stake here.

This is not confronting the Devil, only looking for and getting the Star heart. The player confront weakness, failures and being truly alone and lost. But I understand what you explain. These are going to be the mechanics not the role-playing. That part you explain I planned to use it with the Devils part. I read about Sir Ethilrist confronting the huge jackbear and I got the idea of a doppelganger fueled by chaos trying to negate the heroquester, an antimatter of sorts. That's the soul destruction part.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Jose

[soltakss]

16 hours ago, Jose said:

Hi, I am preparing a partial star heart heroquest. And I would like your opinion. When my player pass the Second Son I plan to manage the next stage this way. 

It sounds really complicated to me.

17 hours ago, Jose said:

1- take every rune power or form which is above 50 and add it to the pool. You have stasis 75 then add 75 to the pool because Change 25 is weak for you and now is empowered. 

2- divide the pool by the number of empowered Runes you added. For example (75+80+90)/3. That's the number that represent your weakness. 

Some people won't like even that level of arithmetic.

 

17 hours ago, Jose said:

3- roll cha x 5 or less to get your inspiration bonus. 

What is it used for?

What happens if you fail?

17 hours ago, Jose said:

4-roll  against weakness number for a bonus as inspiration against you. This is the cosmos testing you. 

How do you roll?

In the example above, your Weakness Number is 82, do you roll D100?

17 hours ago, Jose said:

5- you have to get 7 Victory points in the resistance table to win. confronting the rune you choose +inspiration + 10 from mastery rune, versus the weakness number+"weakness inspiration" 

I am not sure what this means.

What do you mean by Victory points in the resistance table?

If you use the Resistance Table, what are you matching with what?

I just don't understand this step at all, perhaps an example would help.

17 hours ago, Jose said:

If you win you sacrifice 1 Pow or more and get access to the Charisma spell and the passion Star heart as boons

Fair enough.

17 hours ago, Jose said:

If you fail by 1,2 then  you lose 1 point of POW and 1 point of cha. 3,4 you lose 2 points each. 5,6 3 points + a Fear passion. 7 roll in madness spell table. 

Seems a bit harsh, but it is a HeroQuest after all.

Do 5 and 6 also lose 2 POW and 2 CHA?

Does 7 mean you lose 2 POW and CHA and gain the Fear passion as well?

17 hours ago, Jose said:

If you are stronger in the beast rune the force confronting you take the humanoid form or if you are an aldryani with high man rune value it takes a plant related form.

Aldryami strong in the Plant Rune should get a plant form, same as someone strong in Beast getting a beast form. An Aldryami or Beast person strong in the Man Rune should get a Man form.

 

[jajagappa]

6 hours ago, Jose said:

The player confront weakness, failures and being truly alone and lost.

But what weakness are you confronting?  A low value in a Rune does not imply a weakness, just that it is subordinate trait to your dominant trait.  Or the lack of an elemental Rune just means it is not part of your constitution.  What failure is reflected here?  Poor choice in choosing Runes?  That they should have tried to be at 50% in each?  

The HQG Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes included a section on gaining your Star Heart (p.350) which I think may be useful:

Each hero finds himself lost and alone in the Dark to be tormented by his own weaknesses, wrongs, and fears.

Your Star Heart: Handle the search for a hero’s Star Heart as an extended contest against a manifestation of his greatest Flaw. For example, if the hero is hated by the Greydogs, he is attacked by all the curses of that clan, their ancestors and guardians; if he is lustful or an addict, then he is seduced by a demon of Temptation; and so on. The hero must select some appropriate ability with which to overcome his Flaw.

Instead of trying to abstract some arbitrary weakness, start with their most powerful negative Passion.  Maybe it's Fear, maybe Hate.  If it's not obvious from the Passions, look at the highest rated Rune and have the player express what they consider the most negative aspect of that Rune (e.g. Death: remorseless; Air: reckless; Earth: calculating, or unmovable; etc.).  The attack is based on the value of that Passion or Rune.  The character must determine how they will resist.

I'd use Opposed Rolls here, probably working towards whichever gets to 5 points first (character or "foe").  A tie in level of success yields 0 points; one level of success better = 1 point; 2 levels better = 2 points; 3 levels better = 3 or 4 points.

That keeps the mechanics simple, and it clarifies what the weakness is based on - something very tangible and strong in their personality.

[EricW]

What happens if Etyries stands in for Issaries in a lightbringer heroquest? Or even stands in for Orlanth? Does it work? Or does it go horribly wrong in some way?

[JRE]

I would say it depends on the particular worshipper, and Orlanth's role in the quest. So no general response.

As for the LBQ, I think that if she was brought up an orlanthi, and if she really believes Etyries is a good daughter living up to dad, she could do well, as she probably knows what she has to do. A Heartland trader with no knowledge of the LBQ, not so well, but she may still handle the communication parts, and may well do it better than a Humakti, or an Ernaldan, or even a headstrong violent Orlanth Adventurous type.

I would say Issaries role in the LBQ is finding the path, talking with people, not being killed, losing the path and then being confident when all goes sideways and finding it again. Etyries will be more suitable than Heler, or Elmal, or the guys mentioned above.

[Darius West]

On 2/3/2021 at 6:45 PM, soltakss said:

It depends on the HeroQuest. Biturian Varosh was forced to play Orlanth in the Three Blows of Anger HeroQuest, even though he was not a worshipper of Orlanth.

You are quite correct...  The choice was deliberate.  The Yelmalios wanted a victim, not a real Orlanthi.

[davecake]

On 4/11/2022 at 8:33 AM, EricW said:

What happens if Etyries stands in for Issaries in a lightbringer heroquest? Or even stands in for Orlanth? Does it work? Or does it go horribly wrong in some way?

That is exactly the sort of question that should be settled by the actions of your players.
Or even not settled, but explored - maybe it succeeds but the outcome is tinged with Lunar magic (you brought someone back, but now they are Illuminated and have a 100% Moon rune! And may have met the Goddess in the Underworld!), then many might see it as having gone horribly wrong despite success, or even horribly right! 
(though I think Etyries as Orlanth is likely setting yourself up for failure at other parts of the quest. Which may not necessarily mean total failure, but is unlikely to mean traditional success)

[AndreJarosch]

On 4/11/2022 at 2:33 AM, EricW said:

What happens if Etyries stands in for Issaries in a lightbringer heroquest? Or even stands in for Orlanth? Does it work? Or does it go horribly wrong in some way?

IMHO Ethyries can stand in for Issaries, because even if they don´t have the exact same backstory, they are both into trading and communication, so most of the impulses an Etyries worshipper would follow are in line what an Issaaries worshipper would do. 
Etyries as a stand in for Orlanth is a totally different thing. 

If you are a car salesman and have to take a job as an Avon agent you would lack the expertise of the wares you are selling, but the basics (sales, communication, psychology of the potential customer) are the same. 
If you are a car salesman and have to work as a hairdresser: you are lost!

Edited May 7, 2022 by AndreJarosch

[EricW]

2 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

IMHO Ethyries can stand in for Issaries, because even if the don´t have the exact same backstory, they are both into trading and communication, so most of the impulses an Etyries worshipper would follow are in line what an Issaaries worshipper would do. 
Etyries as a stand in for Orlanth is a totally different thing. 

If you are a car salesman and have to take a job as an Avon agent you would lack the expertise of the wares you are selling, but the basics (sales, communication, psychology of the potential customer) are the same. 
If you are a car salesman and have to work as a hairdresser: you are lost!

But Etyries is the messenger of the chaos moon. How would this impact a LBQ?

[AndreJarosch]

14 minutes ago, EricW said:

But Etyries is the messenger of the chaos moon. How would this impact a LBQ?

Etyries ist the Goddess of Trade and Communication of the Lunar Empire (you can call it "messemger of the chaos moon"), and therefore not much different from Issaries, the god of Trade an Communication of the Heortlings. 

[soltakss]

On 4/11/2022 at 1:33 AM, EricW said:

What happens if Etyries stands in for Issaries in a lightbringer heroquest? Or even stands in for Orlanth? Does it work? Or does it go horribly wrong in some way?

It could work, as Etyries is the daughter of Issaries.

There is, of course, always the possibility of sabotage, or of taking the HeroQuest in unusual directions.

59 minutes ago, EricW said:

But Etyries is the messenger of the chaos moon. How would this impact a LBQ?

It wouldn't, unless the participant wanted it to.

It is possible that a HeroQuestor might need to roll Cult Lore (Issaries) to know something that could be used on the HeroQuest, and Cult Lore (Etyries) won't do, or has a big penalty, that would affect the HeroQuest but not in the way that you mean.

What are the Runes of Etyries? I am not sure, but don't think she has the Moon Rune, so most of her Runes should be the same as Issaries.

Her Passions are similar, but maybe the HeroQuestor has a moon-related Passion, which could cause some unusual behaviour on the HeroQuest.

[Joerg]

On 4/8/2022 at 8:16 PM, Jose said:

Hi, I am preparing a partial star heart heroquest. And I would like your opinion. When my player pass the Second Son I plan to manage the next stage this way. 

1- take every rune power or form which is above 50 and add it to the pool. You have stasis 75 then add 75 to the pool because Change 25 is weak for you and now is empowered. 

I had the impression that the IFWW usually is part of the initiation, at least for Heortling males, which means it is the quest through which their runic stats and at least some of their passions are formed, rather than going into the quest.

That said, I have suggested this quest as an extraordinary feat of desperation when facing unstoppable Chaos approaching, to be performed by extremely experienced heroquesters (Full Lighbringers Quest veterans on one occasion), but if I had to do this again I would take their experiences from such previous quests and challenge those as their personal tests.

 

At least to my understanding, identification is a very big part of succeeding in stations of a heroquest. By proving your identity, the challenge becomes a narrative pass, even if it results in a major setback in the original narrative and forces the quester to suffer the consequenc of that setback.