Western Hero Wars Status Quo

[Nevermet]

5 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Okay, so basically, the entry-level of Western adventures is something more akin to knight-errant adventures, ronin and wuxia stories? Wandering warriors relying on their own moral compass to get things done. 

There is, however, a meta-structure, with them being sent around on missions by their superiors (talars, Zzaburi), so not entirely wandering by their own rudder. 

Presumably, there are going to be small-scale events that take PCs from being minor "problem-solvers" of their liege lord and/or sorcerer superior and turns it into a more profound (and perhaps self-driven) quest for deeper meaning and secrets.

From the comments above, this will, somehow, coalesce into revelations and decision that has the potential to upend the social order. 

Is this more on the ball, or have I still completely missed the point?

That feels right to me, though I'm not sure it is truly distinctive to me, as I can easily imagine a lot of Pelorian and Kathaelan adventurers whose activities can be summaries as Wandering warriors relying on their own moral compass to get things done while being sent around on missions by their superiors.

 

So, I'm a bit lost.  

 

At lower levels, I'd imagine the big differences are a matter of context (the political landscape of Location A vs. Location B).  At higher levels... I think the "anticipated" central Genertelan Hero Warrior is asked the question, "What version of Your God will you become to gain the power you want?  How will becoming your god change how you use power?"

 

I'm fuzzy what the top tier Hero Warriors of the West will be asked.

[Nevermet]

Also, I'm babbling over my paygrade.  Please be gentle when you point out I have no clue what I'm talking about, but please nevertheless point it out 🙂

[Nick Brooke]

Join the club. But don’t ever let on!

[Nevermet]

9 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Join the club. But don’t ever let on!

I keep forgetting that!

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by Nevermet

[scott-martin]

23 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

I'm fuzzy what the top tier Hero Warriors of the West will be asked.

If I were betting now I would want them to find the answer to an extremely simple question

What is the secret of the [world], whom does it serve

Not all of them will get it. There will be wrong answers along the way. It's how we get there.

[Joerg]

37 minutes ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

Okay, so basically, the entry-level of Western adventures is something more akin to knight-errant adventures, ronin and wuxia stories? Wandering warriors relying on their own moral compass to get things done. 

That's what a game in Fronela is likely to look like, and possibly the Aamor story-line in Fornoar (just northwest of Rindland), too. Safelster is already a different beast with its rivaling city states and the Arkat theme.

"Knights" in "Seshnela" are talar caste warriors. When "errant" that means they aren't the designated heirs of the holdings that support the cataphract equipment and stable of horses a full cataphract talar-warrior requires. Let's assume that younger (or otherwise non-heir) sons who don't want to serve under a brother and playground rival will seek distinction and rewards away from the family holdings, hoping to impress a patron - ideally the king or the High Watcher - to appoint them to some newly vacated holding.

Given Guilmarn's track record to unite all the provincial ruling holdings to his person, the remaining talars are reduced to rural holdings, or secondary cities at best. While they are valued as providers of regiments to ride in the king's numerous campaigns, maintaining such regiments will stress the output of thier holdings 

 

To me (and presumably to the Rokari Watchers), men-of-all-errant sound like the worst of the Hrestoli aberrations, and need to be censured, except where they might be exploited for deeper plots of the High Watcher and his cabal.

Quote

There is, however, a meta-structure, with them being sent around on missions by their superiors (talars, Zzaburi), so not entirely wandering by their own rudder. 

Unless they form up or join a mercenary company in the Safelstran playground.

Once upon a time Greg also toted a chivalric "Army of Tomorrow", an order with 10 chapters, one of these active in Kethaela. I cannot tell whether or not these are identical with Sir Narib's Company. There is enough overlap.

 

Quote

Presumably, there are going to be small-scale events that take PCs from being minor "problem-solvers" of their liege lord and/or sorcerer superior and turns it into a more profound (and perhaps self-driven) quest for deeper meaning and secrets.

There is no problem taking the concept of Lunar Dart Competitions and adapting it to high ranking Tanisoran struggle for power and influence at Guilmarn's court, with the leading families represented by wives and concubines of the king and military field leaders, possibly mercantile or administrative officials in his name, too. The most influential houses in (modern) Seshnela are the Rindland families who supported Bailifes in his conquests of all of Tanisor and much of Safelster. Older ruling families lost their main titles, and probably the main lines of those houses, but many lesser lines of the same Old Seshnelan descent (as opposed to strongly Enerali descent like the Rindland nobility) and practically all of the Pithdaran familiies remained as lesser talar houses, waiting to come to some office above local level.

I am very curious what happened to the Zzaburi lineages that must have existed at some previous time. The Zzabur caste started out as one of several hereditary castes. While we know about monastic sorcerers in Imperial Seshnela (like the fanatics transplanted by Jonat into his homeland), it doesn't appear like these orders could be joined by anyone of the talar, horal or dronar caste, or by men-of-all of non-zzaburi birth (if at all).

 

Quote

From the comments above, this will, somehow, coalesce into revelations and decision that has the potential to upend the social order. 

The entire concept of the Man-of-All is antithetical to the Rokari sense of order. Going errant on a quest of self-insight is not at all what the Watchers encourage - they claim the sole authority for magial insight for themselves.

 

But then, I have a slight conceptual problem with the talar caste of Seshnela practicing ancestor worship and the Rokari doctrine of complete dissolution in the state of Solace. Manifesting dead ancestors shoudl be impossible under that doctrine, shouldn't it?

The Hrestoli sects apparently are fine with the concept of re-incarnation (mentioned for the Galvosti sect in the Guide).

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

That's what a game in Fronela is likely to look like, and possibly the Aamor story-line in Fornoar (just northwest of Rindland), too. Safelster is already a different beast with its rivaling city states and the Arkat theme.

"Knights" in "Seshnela" are talar caste warriors. When "errant" that means they aren't the designated heirs of the holdings that support the cataphract equipment and stable of horses a full cataphract talar-warrior requires. Let's assume that younger (or otherwise non-heir) sons who don't want to serve under a brother and playground rival will seek distinction and rewards away from the family holdings, hoping to impress a patron - ideally the king or the High Watcher - to appoint them to some newly vacated holding.

Given Guilmarn's track record to unite all the provincial ruling holdings to his person, the remaining talars are reduced to rural holdings, or secondary cities at best. While they are valued as providers of regiments to ride in the king's numerous campaigns, maintaining such regiments will stress the output of thier holdings 

 

To me (and presumably to the Rokari Watchers), men-of-all-errant sound like the worst of the Hrestoli aberrations, and need to be censured, except where they might be exploited for deeper plots of the High Watcher and his cabal.

Unless they form up or join a mercenary company in the Safelstran playground.

Once upon a time Greg also toted a chivalric "Army of Tomorrow", an order with 10 chapters, one of these active in Kethaela. I cannot tell whether or not these are identical with Sir Narib's Company. There is enough overlap.

 

There is no problem taking the concept of Lunar Dart Competitions and adapting it to high ranking Tanisoran struggle for power and influence at Guilmarn's court, with the leading families represented by wives and concubines of the king and military field leaders, possibly mercantile or administrative officials in his name, too. The most influential houses in (modern) Seshnela are the Rindland families who supported Bailifes in his conquests of all of Tanisor and much of Safelster. Older ruling families lost their main titles, and probably the main lines of those houses, but many lesser lines of the same Old Seshnelan descent (as opposed to strongly Enerali descent like the Rindland nobility) and practically all of the Pithdaran familiies remained as lesser talar houses, waiting to come to some office above local level.

I am very curious what happened to the Zzaburi lineages that must have existed at some previous time. The Zzabur caste started out as one of several hereditary castes. While we know about monastic sorcerers in Imperial Seshnela (like the fanatics transplanted by Jonat into his homeland), it doesn't appear like these orders could be joined by anyone of the talar, horal or dronar caste, or by men-of-all of non-zzaburi birth (if at all).

 

The entire concept of the Man-of-All is antithetical to the Rokari sense of order. Going errant on a quest of self-insight is not at all what the Watchers encourage - they claim the sole authority for magial insight for themselves.

 

But then, I have a slight conceptual problem with the talar caste of Seshnela practicing ancestor worship and the Rokari doctrine of complete dissolution in the state of Solace. Manifesting dead ancestors shoudl be impossible under that doctrine, shouldn't it?

The Hrestoli sects apparently are fine with the concept of re-incarnation (mentioned for the Galvosti sect in the Guide).

 

I don't disagree with your points, Joerg, but I'm trying to nail down what direction Jeff is pointing us in, as I'm attempting to grok it.

[Jeff]

42 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

That feels right to me, though I'm not sure it is truly distinctive to me, as I can easily imagine a lot of Pelorian and Kathaelan adventurers whose activities can be summaries as Wandering warriors relying on their own moral compass to get things done while being sent around on missions by their superiors.

 

So, I'm a bit lost.  

 

At lower levels, I'd imagine the big differences are a matter of context (the political landscape of Location A vs. Location B).  At higher levels... I think the "anticipated" central Genertelan Hero Warrior is asked the question, "What version of Your God will you become to gain the power you want?  How will becoming your god change how you use power?"

 

I'm fuzzy what the top tier Hero Warriors of the West will be asked.

We aren't talking about hypothetical Pelorian campaigns (I suspect the Lunar Heartland campaign arc is VERY different from what your described). But in running a Western game, say in Seshnela, we have:

1. A background ideology that is pushed by the zzaburi that is rational to the point of amoral, and which is deeply suspicious of Hrestoli chivalry (along with everything else associated with Hrestol). There are rules, and they are based on reason - you can manipulate them and that's just what there is. Call it cold-eyed modern Western rationalism.

2. An ingrained sympathy for Hrestoli chivalry among most of the other castes. The strong have a duty to the weak and to fair play that trumps all other rules. Call it Pre-Raphaelite Romanticism.  

3. An ambitious and ruthless king who is supported by the zzaburi but needs the chivalrous warriors to carry out his conquests. Call him the anti-Pendragon, a modern Machiavellian.

Meanwhile we have all sorts of remnants of a pre-rational age - the ruins of Seshna Likita, the Beastfolk, the Elder Races, the Beast Brotherhoods, and most dangerous of all, the secretive Arkati who are the Shadow to Reason's Light. Plus we have the return of the original men - think immortal Melniboneans or Vadagh, the Flying Dutchman, and demigod Luathans. There's a lot going on there.

[John Biles]

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

 But then, I have a slight conceptual problem with the talar caste of Seshnela practicing ancestor worship and the Rokari doctrine of complete dissolution in the state of Solace. Manifesting dead ancestors shoudl be impossible under that doctrine, shouldn't it?

The Hrestoli sects apparently are fine with the concept of re-incarnation (mentioned for the Galvosti sect in the Guide).

 

I think the Guide is a little bit verballly sloppy when it talks about the Beast Societies.  These societies are made up of *Horali*, though each Regiment is pledged to some Talar.  

And this likely reflects a differing understanding of what exactly Solace is.

 

[Eff]

13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Plus we have the return of the original men - think immortal Melniboneans or Vadagh, the Flying Dutchman, and demigod Luathans. There's a lot going on there.

...That sets off a thought. Arkat, a person from a legendary magical island of near-immortals whose ethics are baroque and bizarre, carrying a magical sword whose precise provenance and purpose he was unaware of... 

Of course, Arkat isn't much like Elric at all, but perhaps Elric is a good model for a man-of-all who was raised Rokari, or a Westerner in general- grasping for new philosophy in the face of the old's inadequacy, torn between the traditional/chemical dependency and the seductive-destructive new/ensiformic dependency. Here, I suppose, this would be importations of strange spirit cults and gods, whether the returned Arkats or Vadeli imports or what have you, carrying oneself closer to krjalkiness, Chaos, and Gbaji, by design or by abuse.

[Tindalos]

21 minutes ago, Joerg said:

But then, I have a slight conceptual problem with the talar caste of Seshnela practicing ancestor worship and the Rokari doctrine of complete dissolution in the state of Solace. Manifesting dead ancestors shoudl be impossible under that doctrine, shouldn't it?

I get the feeling that the Rokari vision of Seshnegi society is still a "work in progress." They're still having problems of what to do with the lower and middle classes (Guide to Glorantha page 413), who they've been unable to exactly turn into proper castes (the wealthier townsfolk of the trader and crafter subcastes mentioned on page 51 are probably an example of the middle class, and likely look down on lower class workers combined into the Worker Caste)

It wouldn't surprise me if the Rokari Watcher's response would be "yes it's bad, but at the moment we're still rooting out major heresies and convincing showing everyone we've got the Right version of Malkionism. Just look the other way until we've got everything else sorted out, and then we'll get to work on restoring the Talars to their proper place and ending their corruptive ancestor worship." (But in private of course)

[Jeff]

4 minutes ago, Eff said:

...That sets off a thought. Arkat, a person from a legendary magical island of near-immortals whose ethics are baroque and bizarre, carrying a magical sword whose precise provenance and purpose he was unaware of... 

Of course, Arkat isn't much like Elric at all, but perhaps Elric is a good model for a man-of-all who was raised Rokari, or a Westerner in general- grasping for new philosophy in the face of the old's inadequacy, torn between the traditional/chemical dependency and the seductive-destructive new/ensiformic dependency. Here, I suppose, this would be importations of strange spirit cults and gods, whether the returned Arkats or Vadeli imports or what have you, carrying oneself closer to krjalkiness, Chaos, and Gbaji, by design or by abuse.

Arkat embraced irrationalism in a very rational way! A rational skeptic who delved deep into the subconscious of the cosmos in order to overcome the Deceiver who is his shadow. Arkat must descend to the very bottom of the Pit in order to comprehend his foe, and returns changed but with the tools he needs. And then whenever he discovers that those tools are insufficient, he descends further and is further changed. 

[Nevermet]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

We aren't talking about hypothetical Pelorian campaigns (I suspect the Lunar Heartland campaign arc is VERY different from what your described). But in running a Western game, say in Seshnela, we have:

1. A background ideology that is pushed by the zzaburi that is rational to the point of amoral, and which is deeply suspicious of Hrestoli chivalry (along with everything else associated with Hrestol). There are rules, and they are based on reason - you can manipulate them and that's just what there is. Call it cold-eyed modern Western rationalism.

2. An ingrained sympathy for Hrestoli chivalry among most of the other castes. The strong have a duty to the weak and to fair play that trumps all other rules. Call it Pre-Raphaelite Romanticism.  

3. An ambitious and ruthless king who is supported by the zzaburi but needs the chivalrous warriors to carry out his conquests. Call him the anti-Pendragon, a modern Machiavellian.

Meanwhile we have all sorts of remnants of a pre-rational age - the ruins of Seshna Likita, the Beastfolk, the Elder Races, the Beast Brotherhoods, and most dangerous of all, the secretive Arkati who are the Shadow to Reason's Light. Plus we have the return of the original men - think immortal Melniboneans or Vadagh, the Flying Dutchman, and demigod Luathans. There's a lot going on there.

This is all helpful to me, even in Manira 😉

[Nevermet]

This may be a dumb question, but did the Middle Sea Empire have Men-of-All?

 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, Nevermet said:

This may be a dumb question, but did the Middle Sea Empire have Men-of-All?

Yes, they did.  We even have a name for one of them, Rodard of Neleswal (Guide p352).  They were part of the official structure but they existed, were tolerated and even used from time to time.  Basically they were the Bad Batches, Suicide Squads and Dirty Dozens for the God Learners.  

[Nevermet]

43 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Yes, they did.  We even have a name for one of them, Rodard of Neleswal (Guide p352).  They were part of the official structure but they existed, were tolerated and even used from time to time.  Basically they were the Bad Batches, Suicide Squads and Dirty Dozens for the God Learners.  

ok, that makes sense

thank you.

[Snugz]

I got into the West by accident and happenstance, and for practical issues. When I played RQ3 as a Pavis campaign, even with Sandy's rules we never liked sorcery much but my curiosity was piqued by the well-characterised Rokari in Strangers in Prax. I set that aside, since we never were going to play in the West.

Then years later I decided to start a new campaign using MRQ (ouch! yeah, we moved on quickly enough), and I thought this Tradetalk article on the little Pithdaran isle of Giraine was utterly fantastic. I loved the tiny enclave of Malkioni heretic colonists set against the savage even more heretical native Malkioni (the Giranois) and underneath it all tones of tension between sorcery, theism, animism and (with a hint of draconic presence) mysticism plus the social struggle of castes; on one tiny island. Plus Godlearner necromancers, Waertagi, and hints of Arkati + Uz. it was easy, too, to make it a "sea campaign" and wander around other regions via 1 PC's ship, for variety so players wouldn't get too bored stuck on that island (we played various published stuff like the Island of Nekeros from TOTRM10). 

With other articles on Vadeli and such, I felt I had enough to build a fun campaign on that explored the main plotline of (1) broader Western Hero Wars e.g. Quinpolic League vs. Seshnela; and (2) local, seemingly trivial issues that grow in importance (a Talar gets moved here with his household and realizes its a s***hole island; then they find out that there are amazing epic things to do and get caught up in island politics that eventually connect with big Hero Wars issues).

I like the Rokari as "baddies" (but they do mean well), and so do my players. And then they're not nearly as bad as the Vadeli, who do NOT mean well at all but sometimes still must play by Lawful rules. So there's a lot of moral spectra to explore along with the adventure. I didn't understand the Waertagi but eventually came around, sort of. And the fact that so little was (and still is) written meant that I could make a lot up myself, and/or adapt to what got published. Frankly by that time as a GM I was immensely bored with much of Dragon Pass/Prax and wanted something new that was Gloranthan. So it fit the bill. I wouldn't be brave enough to try to run a Kresh wagon-rider campaign as I'd have no clue how to do it, but I bet it would be fun if I knew how.

[Nick Brooke]

1 hour ago, Snugz said:

I thought this Tradetalk article on the little Pithdaran isle of Giraine was utterly fantastic.

Oh God, yes, that was brilliant. Tradetalk #15, The Isle of Giraine by Barry Blatt. It's one of those articles you just read slack-jawed and drooling with envy, like Stew's piece on Duck brothels and Lunar military vice: all those little fragments you and your friends wrote and shared, now picked up and fitted together to create a masterpiece. Absolutely wonderful stuff.

[Snugz]

49 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

Oh God, yes, that was brilliant. Tradetalk #15, The Isle of Giraine by Barry Blatt.

I loved it so much, I even Photoshopped the Guide's map of the coast to return it to match the Orange Box's island configuration, which had Giraine visible as a pathetic sliver of land; for some reason deleted in the Guide (probably stochastic reasons).

Good to know the author; for some reason I never knew it! 

[Nevermet]

19 hours ago, Tindalos said:

I get the feeling that the Rokari vision of Seshnegi society is still a "work in progress." They're still having problems of what to do with the lower and middle classes (Guide to Glorantha page 413), who they've been unable to exactly turn into proper castes (the wealthier townsfolk of the trader and crafter subcastes mentioned on page 51 are probably an example of the middle class, and likely look down on lower class workers combined into the Worker Caste)

It wouldn't surprise me if the Rokari Watcher's response would be "yes it's bad, but at the moment we're still rooting out major heresies and convincing showing everyone we've got the Right version of Malkionism. Just look the other way until we've got everything else sorted out, and then we'll get to work on restoring the Talars to their proper place and ending their corruptive ancestor worship." (But in private of course)

I agree with all of this.

One of my big questions for Rokarism is given what they want to do and be, why don't they just become Brithini?  I think they answer is that's more or less what they want, but the Brithini aren't about converts.  So, IMG Rokarism's ideal goal is to start with "normal", mortal humans and the surviving insights of the Abiding Book after Rokar "sharpened" it, and figure out how to bend that toward the eternal stability and immortality of the Brithini.

[Sir_Godspeed]

Ah, the People's Fundamentalist Revolution of Rokarism is an ever and ongoing project, of course. The New Man was not made in one day. Please report to your local Zzabur Logical Officer for re-educaction into proper, rational caste protocols if you notice subversive thoughts.

[French Desperate WindChild]

28 minutes ago, Nevermet said:

why don't they just become Brithini?  I think they answer is that's more or less what they want, but the Brithini aren't about converts. 

are we sure that Brithini are humans ? Maybe they have something other have not. Something they can lose if they don't follow their way, but something humans cannot gain ?

Edited May 3, 2021 by French Desperate WindChild

[aumshantih]

10 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

are we sure that Brithini are humans ? Maybe they have something other have not. Something they can lose if they don't follow their way, but something humans cannot gain ?

Ah yes, the infamous Brithini spleenpendix.   It atrophies immediately when exposed to Error, and no one has been successful at regaining such an elusive organ.*

* Do not believe the Red Vadeli surgeon's lies about being able to transfer a spleenpendix from a living Brithini into a new owner.    

[Jeff]

26 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

are we sure that Brithini are humans ? Maybe they have something other have not. Something they can lose if they don't follow their way, but something humans cannot gain ?

According to the Brithini, they are the true humans who have kept to the full Law of Malkion. We are the failures and the descendants of failures.

[Joerg]

29 minutes ago, Jeff said:

According to the Brithini, they are the true humans who have kept to the full Law of Malkion. We are the failures and the descendants of failures.

Or worse, the descendants of beasts and animated dirt.