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High Llama Riders and 2H Dagger Axe


Ryan Kent

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Special case given the sheer height of the High Llamas. The text supporting this is consistent, especially the High Llama write up in the Bestiary p154, and the fact that Dagger-Axe is a cultural skill for the tribe (RQG p64), along with flavour text in the Homelands section (RQG p119). 

They need SR0 or 1 weapons to reach infantry at all (Bestiary p154 again) which list is limited to Dagger-Axes*, Greatswords, Great Hammers, Mauls, Lances*, Pikes, Long Spears, & Pole-Lassos* (RQG 208-209). EDIT: For added hilarity, they still roll 1D10+10 for hit location against other mounted opponents (except other High Llama) riders, even with the long weapons (Bestiary p154 again). 

If you do want to apply restrictions, I’d suggest the * marked weapons above, since those are the cultural weapons. An argument could be made that they train to use those mounted and that the other weapons, although technically feasible, are not understood well enough in the tribe to be made workable.

Edited by Arcadiagt5
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On 10/18/2021 at 1:53 AM, Ryan Kent said:

My understanding is that RAW you can’t use 2H swinging weapons from the back of a mount. However the write up for the High Llama Riders implies they use the Dagger Axe from the back of their mount.  What is going on with that?

The notion that you can't use a 2h weapon from a mount is wrong.  It isn't optimal, but it isn't impossible, and training can compensate irl.  I mean, cataphracts used sarissa sized lances in an overhand 2 handed position with no shield, and a bow isn't exactly a one handed weapon, and bastard swords are purpose designed for cavalry use and they are 1h/2h weapons.  If anyone debates the use of a pole-arm from horseback I draw your attention to Guan Di, War God of China and hero of the 3 Kingdoms period who used a guan dao (glaive-like polearm) from horseback, much as samurai used naginata from horseback.

Edited by Darius West
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4 hours ago, Darius West said:

The notion that you can't use a 2h weapon from a mount is wrong.  It isn't optimal, but it isn't impossible, and training can compensate irl.  I mean, cataphracts used lances in an overhand 2 handed position with no shield, and a bow isn't exactly a one handed weapon, and bastard swords are purpose designed for cavalry use and they are 1h/2h weapons.  If anyone debates the use of a pole-arm from horseback I draw your attention to Guan Di, who used a guan dao from horseback, much as samurai used naginata from horseback.

russians too used a sort of glaive from horseback around 16-17th century, I believe it was.

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On 10/17/2021 at 3:53 PM, Ryan Kent said:

My understanding is that RAW you can’t use 2H swinging weapons from the back of a mount. However the write up for the High Llama Riders implies they use the Dagger Axe from the back of their mount.  What is going on with that?

While a dagger-axe is technically a two-handed polearm, the easiest way to imagine High Llama riders using it is like a polo mallet. When used this way, it's technically a one-handed weapon with a wrist thong. When dismounted it's used two-handed. I imagine that the shaft is much more flexible than a usual spear. Polo is an ancient game (originating with late bronze age horse nomad), so thinking about it this way is a good model in my mind.

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44 minutes ago, David Scott said:

While a dagger-axe is technically a two-handed polearm, the easiest way to imagine High Llama riders using it is like a polo mallet. When used this way, it's technically a one-handed weapon with a wrist thong. When dismounted it's used two-handed. I imagine that the shaft is much more flexible than a usual spear. Polo is an ancient game (originating with late bronze age horse nomad), so thinking about it this way is a good model in my mind.

And you probably need two hands to use it, even though you swing it with just one. Like when you raise it after an attack, or when you want to bring it to the other side of your mount. You won't be moving around a long pole with a heavy metal head much with just one hand at the end of it.

Edited by Akhôrahil
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6 hours ago, David Scott said:

While a dagger-axe is technically a two-handed polearm, the easiest way to imagine High Llama riders using it is like a polo mallet. When used this way, it's technically a one-handed weapon with a wrist thong. When dismounted it's used two-handed. I imagine that the shaft is much more flexible than a usual spear. Polo is an ancient game (originating with late bronze age horse nomad), so thinking about it this way is a good model in my mind.

Well I’m now imagining my Axe Sister Varena using “Tally Ho!” as her battle cry when mounted… 

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On 10/17/2021 at 4:53 PM, Ryan Kent said:

My understanding is that RAW you can’t use 2H swinging weapons from the back of a mount. However the write up for the High Llama Riders implies they use the Dagger Axe from the back of their mount.  What is going on with that?

I believe there is evidence that the scythians used dagger axes from horseback, presumably one handed. This may be the inspiration.

I'd be curious to know if there were any ancient cultures that actually used dagger axes as two-handed Infantry weapons... Sounds a bit pole-axey to me. 

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On 10/18/2021 at 3:55 PM, Arcadiagt5 said:

Oh they do. It’s hilarious. 

Yes, actually, I am playing a High Llama Tribe Axe Sister with a dagger-axe in one game. Why do you ask? 

Hmmm.  The munchkin player in me *loves* the idea of Axe-Trance'ing here...
but the cold-hearted GM in me doesn't think it qualifies as B.Gor's Sacred Earth weapon(*).

bleah.

Sometimes my cold-hearted inner-GM is such a Danny Downer!


(*) I'm even considering the notion that ONLY the double-bitted "labrys" style axes qualify (and only cross-guarded straightswords for Humakt).  Because mythics, obvs.

 

Edited by g33k
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On 10/17/2021 at 7:27 PM, Arcadiagt5 said:

... EDIT: For added hilarity, they still roll 1D10+10 for hit location against other mounted opponents (except other High Llama) riders, even with the long weapons (Bestiary p154 again)...

I'm considering a HR here.  Bison/Rhino/Horse/etc riders - 1d12+8 hit location.  Smaller mounts 1d10+10 (as per people on foot).

But the small-framed Tribes, like Impala and Ostrich?  On foot, it's 2d4+12...

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4 minutes ago, Nick Underwood said:

We'll that looks pretty conclusive! 

It's interesting, but a fixed target is quite different to a battlefield. He's braced for the impact of hitting the target, but if he misses, or his weapon gets snagged, how does that affect him in terms of balance and signals to the mount? Being able to use it is different to it being useful.

On the other hand, it's awesome and I'm allowing it in my game.

Edited by PhilHibbs
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8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It's interesting, but a fixed target is quite different to a battlefield. He's braced for the impact of hitting the target, but if he misses, or his weapon gets snagged, how does that affect him in terms of balance and signals to the mount? Being able to use it is different to it being useful.

I'm sure there are limiting factors which explain why pole arms don't seem to have been widely adopted en masse as cavalry weapons... Especially, I can imagine how unwieldy it would be in a cavalry formation. 

But for free ranging High Llama skirmishers... Agreed. It's conclusively badass!

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On 10/20/2021 at 1:23 AM, Akhôrahil said:

And you probably need two hands to use it, even though you swing it with just one. Like when you raise it after an attack, or when you want to bring it to the other side of your mount. You won't be moving around a long pole with a heavy metal head much with just one hand at the end of it.

I imagine you use it in scythe-like swinging attacks from the side.  (That's the way I use my rhomphaia in Bannerlord and it is a phenomenal weapon in that role.  Straight up Crimson Bat level carnage.  "So choice". ☺️)

Edited by Darius West
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