Happy Second Birthday to the Jonstown Compendium!

[Shiningbrow]

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

OK, then, I must not be a True Fan, as I only ever buy PDFs nowadays.

I suppose that playing in Glorantha for almost 40 years doesn't make me a True Fan.

OR... perhaps, you're part of the percentage that don't want physical copies (or willing to pay for them...).

 

How's about you go back and fully read what I wrote??

 

7 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

There are no circumstances under which I would say that over two thirds of my customers are not “true fans.”

 

4 hours ago, soltakss said:

Nick's figures show that approximately 20% of the total sales of Secrets of Dorastor were POD, which meant that not very many people really wanted it in print.

Correlation =/= causation.

The *only* way to determine what someone actually wants/prefers is to ask it directly, not to presume it from a few figures. Such as a poll asking - "If price and delivery time were not factors (ie, were the same), would you prefer to have a) PDF, b) hardcopy, or c) both?"

I chose to spitball a percentage. It's probably a bit high, but not very far off. (Both would probably win out by quite a lot). 

 

(Another poll could be "when deciding on purchasing RQ/JC products, what factors do you consider in your choice of format?" <insert multiple ranked options>)

[Nick Brooke]

But what is the point of this navel-gazing? As the programme stands, we have to bring out books out in PDF. If they sell well in PDF, we can bring them out in print later. If we do an end run around that, DriveThruRPG will shut down the POD option, disappointing between 32% @Nick Brooke and 67% @Squaredeal Sten of our customer base.

Before the rules changed, one book did come out in both formats simultaneously: Valley of Plenty. In total, it sold 141 print (43%) and 186 PDF (57%) copies: that's nowhere near 67% print / 33% PDF. You can see that in the bar chart above. And don't waste my time saying "but that book was for QuestWorlds, proper RuneQuest players have different preferences because reasons..."

As you know, we can't implement Chaosium-style discounts for "early" PDF buyers. The economics of POD via DTRPG are completely different.

So buy our books, or don't buy them. In PDF, in print, or both. Wait for print if that's your preference; if it never happens, so be it.

[Nick Brooke]

One last data point from me. We've sold Glamour 829 times, to 752 customers. As the publisher, Chaosium gets the customer ID for each transaction, so I can analyse the dataset looking for multiple sales of the same product. Just 71 customers (9%) bought the PDF and then came back for a printed copy; 3 customers bought the PDF and came back for two printed copies. (They are the best customers!). Bundled data (print+PDF) and format split (premium vs. cheap) was in my earlier post. And that's yer lot.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Nick Brooke

[simonh]

19 hours ago, Scotty said:

Thanks to @Nick Brooke for coming along to Dragonmeet with a suitcase of JC & ML books and showing them off to all. It was great to see the quality of the physical books. It was likewise great to meet a few of the JC authors in person.

Gutted that I couldn't make Dragonmeet, but I was working all weekend. Bummer.

[PhilHibbs]

Personally, I buy the PDFs because they might be the only option, and it helps them make it to the print threshold. I could leave it for others to get the product to that point and then just buy print, but since I feel I can afford it, that would be mean.

I'm just a single data point, though.

Edited December 8, 2021 by PhilHibbs

[Akhôrahil]

On 12/8/2021 at 10:13 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Personally, I buy the PDFs because they might be the only option, and it helps them make it to the print threshold. I could leave it for others to get the product to that point and then just buy print, but since I feel I can afford it, that would be mean.

I'm just a single data point, though.

A little surprising that DriveThru doesn't implement a solution with a rebate option for a later print version when buying PDF. It seems to be what everyone asks for, after all, and they could certainly create it within their own ecosystem if they wanted to.

[Nick Brooke]

55 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

A little surprising that DriveThru doesn't implement a solution with a rebate option for a later print version when buying PDF. It seems to be what everyone asks for, after all, and they could certainly create it within their own ecosystem if they wanted to.

The economics of large commercial print-runs (like Chaosium's) are completely different to those of print-on-demand (via Lightning Source). Feel free to check the cost of printing books on DriveThru's website: those tools are available for everyone to use. Any money that goes to pay the printer does not go to the creator, publisher or platform: how would you suggest DriveThru gets around that? Remember that they're primarily a PDF distributor, with a small sideline in outsourced print-on-demand.

[AndreJarosch]

On 12/8/2021 at 10:13 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Personally, I buy the PDFs because they might be the only option, and it helps them make it to the print threshold. I could leave it for others to get the product to that point and then just buy print, but since I feel I can afford it, that would be mean.

I'm just a single data point, though.

That is exactly how i do my JC purchases. 
I WANT printed books, but i buy the PDFs because
a) i might not have a chance to get them in print if they are not selling 251 PDF copies. So it is PDF or nothing.
b) by buying the PDF i help to reach the 251 sold PDFs faster, so that i can get my printed book!

I have to pay more this way, as if i had waited until the PoD was available, but most of the PoD titles until now were worth that extra money, so i will continue to handle it this way. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by AndreJarosch

[Akhôrahil]

20 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

The economics of large commercial print-runs (like Chaosium's) are completely different to those of print-on-demand (via Lightning Source). Feel free to check the cost of printing books on DriveThru's website: those tools are available for everyone to use. Any money that goes to pay the printer does not go to the creator, publisher or platform: how would you suggest DriveThru gets around that? Remember that they're primarily a PDF distributor, with a small sideline in outsourced print-on-demand.

Obviously the printer needs to be paid and DriveThru get its share - that's just part of the model - but how is this different in principle (I'm completely onboard with the different printing costs) from Chaosium refunding the cost of the PDF later when the same person orders the completed Print + PDF package? I get the impression that plenty of creators would like this (including some who have implemented it manually).

[Nick Brooke]

OK, I'll run some numbers for you. This is ball-park stuff from when we were pricing up A Rough Guide to Glamour: the details changed last July (with expensive premium and cheap standard formats), but the principles are still the same.

Let's say it costs about $15 to print a 120-page book. So we price our PDF at $15, and our printed book at $30. Chaosium customers are used to the idea that digital cost is half physical, and those numbers look sensible alongside other RPG books in the marketplace.

We sell a PDF for $15, we earn $15. Half of that goes to our platform (DriveThruRPG: 30% share) and publisher (Chaosium: 20% share). Split the $7.50 that's left between the authors and artists who get a share of royalties: in this case I get about 30% of the creators' share. Let's say $2.25.

We sell a printed book for $30 plus shipping, the printers take $15 because that's what it costs to print (inc. their margin), and they also take all the shipping costs because they're the ones paying to package and post it. We have $15 left in the kitty, exactly as intended: it all gets divvied up the same way. (There is some wobble room because of differential US & UK printing costs: I tend to average those when working things out).

When Chaosium prints thousands of books the same size, you can guarantee they did not cost $15 each to print. Big print runs mean small print costs per unit. Ergo, their margin on a print sale is higher than their margin on digital. So they have the leeway to offer an "incentive" discount to get customers to buy printed books from the company store, as the company gets more income that way than they would if the customer bought the printed book from a FLGS after the distributor takes their cut. (Customers also have an incentive to buy from FLGSs in the Bits and Mortar scheme, because everyone likes supporting friendly local game stores. Customers who don't care about that stuff can buy PDF-only from DriveThru, or physical-only from online sellers: they have choices, all with their pro's and con's). 

Selling through DriveThruRPG, we don't have that leeway or that incentive, and you don't have those choices: there's only one storefront, with no distributors or FLGSs in the picture. Also, the way I do it, we don't get a bigger margin on print sales than we do on digital. (Other creators can do it differently: I'm talking about my pricing model here)

But your suggestion means someone loses income -- it won't be the printers, and I don't see DriveThruRPG or Chaosium volunteering to take smaller shares to implement a print discount, so at the end of the day it's me (and my co-authors and artists). I suppose I could always increase my cover prices (say: PDF is $20, print is $40, so now my margin on a print sale is $25 not $20 and I can start to get clever...), but that hurts my sales. And I know that only 10% of my customers have bought Glamour separately in both formats, so at the end of the day it's a pretty small problem. After all: this is a luxury product I'm selling here (a book for a silly elf game), nobody needs to buy it, our prices in both formats are reasonable, and any money I make from community content gets reinvested to buy art for my next books. So all in all, I feel pretty good about the way things are working today. (But I'm an accountant: I would say that, wouldn't I?)

If you can see a flaw in this (other than the hardy perennial, "we asked your customers, and they want better products for free"), please let me know. I've been doing this less than two years, it's quite possible I've missed something, and maybe the smart answer is to jack up all my prices/margins and then get cute with the differential between PDF and print. But that makes work for me, and hurts my customers, and I don't really want to do it: I'd rather just sell great books, in PDF and print formats, at reasonable prices.

Edited December 9, 2021 by Nick Brooke

[M Helsdon]

The rebate for buying the POD doesn't really work, because as I understand it, the sales model is very different, between on demand printing and being able to expect to print and sell thousands of units.

The margins are much better for mass printing, but even the best selling JC title probably doesn't shift a fifth of a Chaosium product.

There's an economy of scale, and a rebate system needs someone to implement and manage it. DriveThru simply isn't set up to do this - it isn't their core business - and authors cannot do it, because they would need DriveThru support. Someone would have to pay for it.

Chaosium does mass printing - their printing costs will be way lower than for a POD. You just have to select an online printer and run the numbers. Let's see, I take Armies and Enemies through a quote:

This particular printer says:

£37.66 for a print run of a single copy.

£19.73 per copy for ten.

£14.42 per copy for a hundred.

£11.71  per copy for a thousand.

As you can see, DriveThru's printers are much more competitive, and those Chaosium printers will be even more competitive.

We are lucky to be getting any PODs and if the system gets overworked, their availability might be further limited or terminated.

 

 

Edited December 9, 2021 by M Helsdon

[Diana Probst]

4 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

That is exactly how i do my JC purchases. 
I WANT printed books, but i buy the PDFs because
a) i might not have a chance to get them in print if they are not selling 251 PDF copies. So it is PDF or nothing.
b) by buying the PDF i help to reach the 251 sold PDFs faster, so that i can get my printed book!

I have to pay more this way, as if i had waited until the PoD was available, but most of the PoD titles until now were worth that extra money, so i will continue to handle it this way. 

We are so massively grateful to fans like you and @PhilHibbs, both for supporting us in the first place, and by making sure people know that you like our work that much.  By people, I include the creators there.  It's a boost like you wouldn't believe.

[Diana Probst]

6 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Obviously the printer needs to be paid and DriveThru get its share - that's just part of the model - but how is this different in principle (I'm completely onboard with the different printing costs) from Chaosium refunding the cost of the PDF later when the same person orders the completed Print + PDF package? I get the impression that plenty of creators would like this (including some who have implemented it manually).

The principle is different for that exact reason; there isn't any spare money.

The margins on the printed version are, for Beer With Teeth, less than the cost of the printing.  We make less on each printed book than we make from each PDF sale.  If we gave a rebate, we'd be making a loss on each book.  Even if we gave a small rebate, we'd be giving back money we had already earned, and that had been distributed to different people in the team.

We do that so that the books are affordable, but we absolutely cannot afford to pay you to take our books away.  We love you, but not that much.

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

b) by buying the PDF i help to reach the 251 sold PDFs faster, so that i can get my printed book!

Bearing in mind, of course, that 251 copies does not guarantee an automatic print run. We still rely on the extra hard work from the creator or other heroic assistants to get the print run approved and prepared, and the whims of the capricious OBS Great Spirits to allow it to happen.

[AndreJarosch]

3 hours ago, Diana Probst said:

We are so massively grateful to fans like you and @PhilHibbs, both for supporting us in the first place, and by making sure people know that you like our work that much.  By people, I include the creators there.  It's a boost like you wouldn't believe.

I am always happy to help, but belive me: 
I am only VERY selfish: I want that book in printed form.  
I support you, so that I can get what I want. 

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, Diana Probst said:

The principle is different for that exact reason; there isn't any spare money.

The margins on the printed version are, for Beer With Teeth, less than the cost of the printing.  We make less on each printed book than we make from each PDF sale.  If we gave a rebate, we'd be making a loss on each book.  Even if we gave a small rebate, we'd be giving back money we had already earned, and that had been distributed to different people in the team.

We do that so that the books are affordable, but we absolutely cannot afford to pay you to take our books away.  We love you, but not that much.

Thanks, this reasoning makes sense!

[M Helsdon]

9 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Obviously the printer needs to be paid and DriveThru get its share - that's just part of the model - but how is this different in principle (I'm completely onboard with the different printing costs) from Chaosium refunding the cost of the PDF later when the same person orders the completed Print + PDF package? I get the impression that plenty of creators would like this (including some who have implemented it manually).

It's down to costs.

Anyone who has Word can create a PDF that looks acceptable with some work; it won't look professional, it won't look as good as a professionally laid out Chaosium book, but it will suffice. For most JC authors Word or a similar word processor will be a resource they already have.

However, that Word PDF won't satisfy the DriveThruRPG quality control criteria for a POD.

For that you need other applications and skills, and if you don't already have those, either you cannot create a POD, you have to purchase and learn to use the necessary tools, or you have to find someone willing to do this for you. Unless you are very fortunate, the latter won't be free. There's also the factor that you can't guarantee the 251 sales to reach the criteria to permit a POD so investing upfront means you may be starting at a loss.

This means that the economics of creating a POD for most JC authors is very different from a Chaosium book and PDF. It means that often a POD has a reduced margin to a PDF, so if you gave a rebate, you are reducing your income.

I lack the tools and skills to turn my PDFs into PODs.

It would be nice to use the same sales model as Chaosium, but there's a huge difference between industry, and what is effectively a cottage industry.

I would love to be able to provide rebates, but my sales simply aren't large enough to consider doing this, and I suspect I'm in the upper sales ranking, based on Nick's graphs. It simply isn't something that is practical; this isn't greed. Anyone expecting to make money out of this enterprise, commensurate with the time and effort expended,  is at best misguided... I am investing my POD sales into art for my next book, so I am supporting artists.

The way to look at it, is that PDF sales are a vote of confidence in a title which may in time become a POD. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by M Helsdon

[Nick Underwood]

8 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

If you can see a flaw in this (other than the hardy perennial, "we asked your customers, and they want better products for free"), please let me know.

Slap an extra score on Premium hardbacks. If folks choose less costly options you still make the same margins. But many will buy. PhilHibbs will buy!

You can call it the Solidarity Version - and we will all get to feel good about ourselves, too. 

(My credentials here are having bought exactly one printed rpg book in 20 years. You may want a second opinion...) 

[Diana Probst]

15 hours ago, AndreJarosch said:

I am always happy to help, but belive me: 
I am only VERY selfish: I want that book in printed form.  
I support you, so that I can get what I want. 

I am amazingly OK with this being how it works, and I believe you.

[MOB]

17 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Bearing in mind, of course, that 251 copies does not guarantee an automatic print run. We still rely on the extra hard work from the creator or other heroic assistants to get the print run approved and prepared, and the whims of the capricious OBS Great Spirits to allow it to happen.

And don't forget the capricious whims of Chaosium. 251 PDF sales means a JC title is eligible for POD. But not all JC titles need to be or should be available as POD.

Please also remember the Electrum threshold comes from us (Chaosium), not OBS. We have instituted this to help our community content programs stay in OBS's good graces. We have to be mindful of how often we approve titles to get processed for POD publishing on DTRPG. They have a limited capacity to add POD titles on their site.

[soltakss]

On 12/9/2021 at 10:46 PM, M Helsdon said:

However, that Word PDF won't satisfy the DriveThruRPG quality control criteria for a POD.

For that you need other applications and skills, and if you don't already have those, either you cannot create a POD, you have to purchase and learn to use the necessary tools, or you have to find someone willing to do this for you. Unless you are very fortunate, the latter won't be free. There's also the factor that you can't guarantee the 251 sales to reach the criteria to permit a POD so investing upfront means you may be starting at a loss.

Those of us without the applications and skills can be lucky enough to have friends who will do the work for us.

Nick Brooke did the work for Secrets of Dorastor and Neil Gibson did the work for secrets of HeroQuesting, and fixed an issue with the new version of Secrets of Dorastor.

Thanks, Nick and Neil for all your help.

On 12/10/2021 at 12:36 AM, Nick Underwood said:

Slap an extra score on Premium hardbacks. If folks choose less costly options you still make the same margins. But many will buy.

Personally, I don't like doing that.

What I have done is to add the PDF cost to the cost of printing the book, very roughly.

This means that I get the same margin for a POD as for a PDF.

I am aware that some people will buy everything and don't like to abuse that by inflating prices.

However, that is a personal view and I have no problem with others adding a premium for Hardcover.

[Squaredeal Sten]

On 12/5/2021 at 8:37 AM, Shiningbrow said:

The *only* way to determine what someone actually wants/prefers is to ask it directly, not to presume it from a few figures. Such as a poll asking - "If price and delivery time were not factors (ie, were the same), would you prefer to have a) PDF, b) hardcopy, or c) both?"

Actually not so.  The track record of results from asking it directly is not good.  People pose and lie and mislead and exaggerate and flip into bargaining mode when asked such things directly.  Especially when price is one of the considerations.   (And the difference between print and PDF prices is definitely important.) I can give you a RW war story..... but that's getting pretty far from Runequest as a topic.

That's why marketing researchers developed conjoint analysis, asking about combinations of characteristics  indirectly but methodically to get derived preference; and also why people analyze sales figures, looking at demonstrated preferences.  And also why we do qualitative research.  Yes we do ask those direct questions -  but it's sensible to doubt the answers, and they should just be starting points.  

 

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Actually not so.  The track record of results from asking it directly is not good.  People pose and lie and mislead and exaggerate and flip into bargaining mode when asked such things directly.  Especially when price is one of the considerations.   (And the difference between print and PDF prices is definitely important.) I can give you a RW war story..... but that's getting pretty far from Runequest as a topic.

That's why marketing researchers developed conjoint analysis, asking about combinations of characteristics  indirectly but methodically to get derived preference; and also why people analyze sales figures, looking at demonstrated preferences.  And also why we do qualitative research.  Yes we do ask those direct questions -  but it's sensible to doubt the answers, and they should just be starting points.  

 

Valid, true and fair. (I'd be one of the outliers - I'd love to have the hard copies, and have the funds to buy... But not going to happen while I'm in China).

I was only trying to point out that sales aren't a true reflection of preference. Otherwise, we'd have to presume that people prefer to drive a cheap Toyota rather than a Porsche or BMW... 

 

[jajagappa]

16 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

we'd have to presume that people prefer to drive a cheap Toyota rather than a Porsche or BMW...

And I can attest that that is a real preference. 🙂

[g33k]

18 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

I was only trying to point out that sales aren't a true reflection of preference. Otherwise, we'd have to presume that people prefer to drive a cheap Toyota rather than a Porsche or BMW... 

1 hour ago, jajagappa said:

And I can attest that that is a real preference. 🙂

 

It's worth googling for "celebrities who drive cheap cars"
There's a fair number of them, actually...