Transferring cults

[Godlearner]

So let's say and initiate of  Ernalda wants to "take up the ax" and join Babeester Gor. What happens to her Ernalda Rune Pool? Is this the same for an initiate of Seven Mother who may decide at various times to join a particular one of the seven mothers?

[soltakss]

I would say that the Rune Pool would be transferred across, if the worshipper left on good terms and followed the correct procedures.

If an Ernaldan slaughtered all the Priestesses at her Temple because they were seen as traitors to the Earth then all bets are off and she might just lose those points.

For Seven Mothers, you probably still retain your Seven Mothers Rune Pool and just open up a new one for the particular Mother that you are worshipping.

[g33k]

I would say the "normal" process is to look at the Ernaldan's various Skills, Passions, etc, and ask:  does she qualify for B.Gor?

If so, skip this step and go to the next; if not, she has to study at a B.Gor temple, or at least under the tutelage of an Axe Sister, until she does qualify.

Next High Holy day, worship B.Gor, sac a point (or more) of POW, and voila!  She's a B.Gor initiate with 1 (or more) Rune Points.
(I do not see that her Ernaldan rune-pool is affected in any way; she's initiated into both cults)

Edited February 17, 2022 by g33k

[Godlearner]

3 minutes ago, g33k said:

(I do not see that her Ernaldan rune-pool is affected in any way; she's initiated into both cults)

Here is a problem I see in this situation; the person keeps jumping from allied cult to allied cult and in each case can get their CHA worth of Rune Points. 

[Kloster]

4 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Here is a problem I see in this situation; the person keeps jumping from allied cult to allied cult and in each case can get their CHA worth of Rune Points. 

I don't think it is a problem in itself. But don't forget  that you must give time and tithing to both cults (or more if you are initiated in more than 2 and don't leave any). The rules are even describing how you can be priest of 1 cult and godspeaker of another, so you surely have a rune pool for each.

Edited February 17, 2022 by Kloster
missing space

[g33k]

Just now, Godlearner said:

Here is a problem I see in this situation; the person keeps jumping from allied cult to allied cult and in each case can get their CHA worth of Rune Points. 

I think that's a feature, not a bug.  But I don't think the problematic issue is as bad as you fear...

• There's only so many jumps to be made (but a well-connected deity like Ernalda certainly has quite a few!)
• Cult demands on your time & money are going to become prohibitive.
• Priests and Temples will become offended at your pokeball "gotta catch 'em all!" attitude.

I think 2 Cults is very reasonable and possible, 3 cults is pushing the matter, and 4 cults borders on impossible to sustain; you will begin catching Ban's & Spirits of Reprisal, etc

Becoming Illuminated will help -- add at least 1-2 more Cults to what's possible, drop the limit of Cult Compatibility, and likely not face SoR's.

[Godlearner]

51 minutes ago, g33k said:

There's only so many jumps to be made (but a well-connected deity like Ernalda certainly has quite a few!)

Take for example Seven Mothers instead. Lots and lots of allied cults.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Godlearner said:

Here is a problem I see in this situation; the person keeps jumping from allied cult to allied cult and in each case can get their CHA worth of Rune Points. 

not an issue for me :

yes the gain is multiple CHA limit

but the pain are time, money and POW sacrifice

 

imagine you have CHA 15 and be initiate of 3 cults... it means you sacrifice 45 POW to be at the limit. Not so easy... and if you add heroquest powers... very hard, isn't it

 

now GM have a lot of options to add more pain, 2 temples would request opposite solution (peace, war...) for the same quest, asking the pc to choose what is her "true" / prime goddess.

 

but I ask myself (I don't use it, but one day maybe) if requesting a devotion "first goddess" roll before trying to initiate to the second cult is a good idea :

If the pc fails, she may have to choose one cult (as they are allied, not a big issue, not reprisals, just a choice), if shee succeeds, she can join the second one, with a good faith to the first one.

I know that for those who consider MGF as let do what players want it is an abomination, but for those who consider role / background / logic of the world, that may be a safeguard ?

[g33k]

2 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Take for example Seven Mothers instead. Lots and lots of allied cults.

Yes, but all the other limits still apply -- for 3 deities, triple the annual POW sacrifices, make undefined probably onerous amounts of tithes, juggle the demands of rival Temples & High Priests who may personally hate one another, etc...

It can be done, but it isn't likely going to be easy; neither to achieve, nor to maintain.

[dumuzid]

I agree with @French Desperate WindChild, I don't see it as an issue as such because of the sheer amount of POW you'd need to sacrifice to have multiple cults at, say, 8 RP or higher under the current rules.  POW gets so much scarcer once a character gets near their species max, unless they're investing in all these rune cults while keeping their personal POW around 10 it'll take some while to recover the POW sacrificed to empower themselves deeply in a new cult--having a POW pruned down in that way makes them vulnerable in any contest with another magician, which seems like a perfectly reasonable balancing mechanic to me.

[Godlearner]

Ok, in that case I do not want to hear any more complains about Thanatari running around with three Rune Pools .............. <queue evil laugh> 😈😈😈

[jajagappa]

57 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

Ok, in that case I do not want to hear any more complains about Thanatari running around with three Rune Pools

You won't need to.  The Thanatari can force their heads to cast magic with the head's Rune Pools.  And the Atyar cultists can probably just Consume the Rune Pools! 😉

[Shiningbrow]

Along with others, I don't see a problem with multiple cults within the same pantheon, and in fact I'd expect it even among NPCs. I'd be fairly surprised if the Babeester Gor wasn't at least a Lay Member of Ernalda, especially since I suspect that many take up the axe after having been a quiet Ernalda initiate for years, until something breaks. Asrelians would also be members of Ernalda, as would many Grain Goddesses. Yinkin & Orlanth. Elmal & Orlanth. Humakt & Orlanth.

 For that matter, Orlanth & Ernalda... 

 

7 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

now GM have a lot of options to add more pain, 2 temples would request opposite solution (peace, war...) for the same quest, asking the pc to choose what is her "true" / prime goddess.

I wouldn't go with any "prime" if just at Initiate level, although a Devotion/Loyalty Opposed check would make sense in your example. However, after Initiate level, whichever is the higher rank would be the primary deity, and should be followed first (e.g., both cults need a task done urgently, or two (or more) opposing commands).

5 hours ago, g33k said:

juggle the demands of rival Temples & High Priests who may personally hate one another, etc...

That sounds like MGF 😃

[Godlearner]

57 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

The Thanatari can force their heads to cast magic with the head's Rune Pools.  And the Atyar cultists can probably just Consume the Rune Pools

Yes, yes, and they can be in Thanatar and Atyar and Than.

[JustAnotherVingan]

If you have a real problem with multiple runepools I'd suggest allowing the runepool to transfer over when the player changes cults so long as its to an associate cult. They won't know any of the cult special runespells to begin with.

1 of my players is running an Ernaldan farmer who took the Red Vows and went off to war and is planning to switch to either Vinga (which I'm including as a small cult in its own right) or the Vinga Adventurous subcult of Orlanth. If she doesn't want to pay the extra tithes etc I'll probably let her transfer the points over.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, Godlearner said:

Yes, yes, and they can be in Thanatar and Atyar and Than.

but this is only one cult and three subcults, isn't it ? only one runepool ?

[JRE]

The thread is moving fast. Going back to the original question, it would depend on the motivations of the character. BG and Ernalda, though both are Earth deities, and friendly to each other, have quite opposed runic associations. So for a non-fully committed initiate, who does not wish to lose her fertility magic, I would keep them separate. She wants to defend the earth or avenge herself on someone, but not to devote herself to the death aspect. But for someone that decides to fully commit to Babeester Gor, I am sure that there are ceremonies to make her an Avenger, and transfer the Ernalda rune points to Babeester Gor, and her non fertility magic as well. 

Though power gamers will see the long term benefits of separate runepools, for a normal person functionality, it is better to have just one, bigger, runepool, and only one serious commitment rather than two. 

If you want to use magic, 50/50 runic associations are risky, and I do not see you as a typical Ernalda initiate with 20% Fertility, at least one that will join the most important ceremonies for the clan. It would be possible, focusing on the earth, but most of your sisters will pity you and your partial experience of the goddess bounty.

As well, although BG does not have disorder as her sister Maran, I do not see the typical BG as particularly harmonious, except for temple guards, so that could be a problem as well.

You can make work practically any combination, but some require a lot of stretching and bending, so make the player work for it. 

[Godlearner]

16 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but this is only one cult and three subcults, isn't it ? only one runepool ?

No, they have different spells and different Runes.

[Jeff]

They stay with Ernalda. She has a deep link with THAT goddess. Babeester Gor is a radically different archetype, sharing only Earth in common. Our new Babeester Gor initiate needs to build up that connection.

Seven Mothers is different, because each cult is a subcult of the collective.

[svensson]

1 hour ago, Jeff said:

They stay with Ernalda. She has a deep link with THAT goddess. Babeester Gor is a radically different archetype, sharing only Earth in common. Our new Babeester Gor initiate needs to build up that connection.

Seven Mothers is different, because each cult is a subcult of the collective.

Your Ernaldan will not suffer any social consequences, she's taking up the warrior role in the Earth pantheon.

But Rune Points are unique to each deity, even those in the same pantheon. An Orlanth worshiper who begins worshiping Heler but develop a completely separate pool of 'Heler magics'.

There are some exceptions. As @Jeff mentioned, the Seven Mothers are treated as 'one deity of seven aspects'. Another example is Vinga. She is the female aspect of Orlanth, so in this case the points would transfer because the worshiper hasn't changed deities.

[Jose]

7 hours ago, Jeff said:

They stay with Ernalda. She has a deep link with THAT goddess. Babeester Gor is a radically different archetype, sharing only Earth in common. Our new Babeester Gor initiate needs to build up that connection.

Seven Mothers is different, because each cult is a subcult of the collective.

Can you give us some more information please? One of my players want to be a deezola initiate. Does he need to initiate in the seven mothers cult first? 

[dumuzid]

On 2/18/2022 at 7:59 PM, Jeff said:

Seven Mothers is different, because each cult is a subcult of the collective.

Are there any other Gloranthan cults that function this way?  Is the Seven Mothers model how one would mechanically render, say, the cult system of the Deneron Council in Pelanda?

[g33k]

On 2/19/2022 at 12:36 AM, Jose said:

Can you give us some more information please? One of my players want to be a deezola initiate. Does he need to initiate in the seven mothers cult first? 

As I understand it, the 7M cult is overwhelmingly the "entry point" for Lunar worship outside the Lunar Heartlands.

If the character isn't from deeply-Lunarized areas, I'd have them "technically" be initiated into 7M... but with a focus (in terms of Passions, Rune-Magic, etc) on the Deezola themes and philosophy.  This will be, functionally, "the same" as a pure-Deezola initiate from the Heartlands.

 

[dumuzid]

4 minutes ago, g33k said:

If the character isn't from deeply-Lunarized areas, I'd have them "technically" be initiated into 7M... but with a focus (in terms of Passions, Rune-Magic, etc) on the Deezola themes and philosophy.  This will be, functionally, "the same" as a pure-Deezola initiate from the Heartlands.

This is almost precisely the approach we've taken in my campaign for a Lunar Tarshite 7M cultist who feels a personal affinity for She who Waits.