Can a Stormbull sense an Ogre

[JustAnotherVingan]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Seems to me the best way, just I would change "will be" (can glorantha gods see the future  ? not sure) by "could be"

 

mmm will you be initiate into any cult deep secret even the weakest without any proof of trust ? I don't make a so big difference between powerful gods and other gods.

Of course if the god has only 2 worshippers, one more initiate could be nice after only one ceremony... but from an established cult, seems to me daredevil

for sure, and after some seasons of "good standing"  as lay member (don't eat anyone, fool !) our long teeth friend is now well known by Issaries, Ernalda  & friends... and can candidate as initiate !

And maybe, because is well known, and well appreciated, the priest will not ask these troublesome stormbullers to evaluate the candidate

 

Divination can only tell you what the Gods know which is what their worshippers tell them through prayer and matters relating to their sphere of influence. They can't read a persons mind or know their motivation (except Lhankor Mhy perhaps since he grants his followers the ability to read minds). Deciding on the suitability of a candidate is down to the priesthood and will be based on what they know of the candidates actions, how important they are, and how much they donate.

[Godlearner]

12 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

Deciding on the suitability of a candidate is down to the priesthood and will be based on what they know of the candidates actions, how important they are, and how much they donate.

In a lot of cults .... 80%

[Stephen L]

On 3/22/2022 at 5:49 PM, Ironwall said:

so the Bestiary states the ogres innate chaotic taint wont give them away when joining non chaos cults.

Funny, I read the Bestiary entry entirely opposite to how you are.

For 

Quote

Ogres sometimes join local cults where their
innate Chaotic taint will not give away their secret.

I read that, where their innate Chaotic taint is not a giveaway, they can join a cult.  But where is it, they can't (unless, of course the cult doesn't care about chaos members).

No matter how I read it, just can't make it mean that that their chaos taint is unreadable when trying to join a cult.

 

Edited March 25, 2022 by Stephen L
that grammar thing

[tnli]

Stormbulls Sense Chaos will only tell if there is chaos *present*, not pinpoint it to any individual or item (unless a lot of time is spent with individual tests, which may or may not be possible in a given situation).

Also, I read the sentence as ogres joining cults when possible, and not it giving them the power to do so and to avoid detections.

[Soccercalle]

How about Storm Bull Detect Chaos and Telmori? The later got a chaotic taint by Gbaji.

[Dragon]

3 hours ago, Stephen L said:

No matter how I read it, just can't make it mean that that their chaos taint is unreadable when trying to join a cult.

Agreed.

[Dragon]

6 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

How about Storm Bull Detect Chaos and Telmori? The later got a chaotic taint by Gbaji.

Storm Bull's Sense Chaos may trigger when a Telmori is near. That is how I always played it. Barring an Illuminate Telmori, of course.

[French Desperate WindChild]

11 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Storm Bull's Sense Chaos may trigger when a Telmori is near. That is how I always played it. Barring an Illuminate Telmori, of course.

same for me

a Telmori, if tainted/cursed, is detected (well not directly as previously said : "there is chaos here).

of course the Telmori is detected if he / she is tainted/cursed, not because he / she is a Telmor hunshen.

[JustAnotherVingan]

22 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

How about Storm Bull Detect Chaos and Telmori? The later got a chaotic taint by Gbaji.

I've always played that tainted by Chaos like Cave Trolls and Telmori is not the same as chaotic and does not trigger a Storm Bull's sense chaos. After all both cave trolls and Telmori have existed alongside fiercely anti-Chaos peoples for a long time and their being tainted by Chaos isn't exactly a secret. 

[soltakss]

There are several ways an Ogre can escape detection:

• Use the False Form Spell
• Avoid Storm Bull cultists
• Become Illuminated
• Avoid getting close to Cacodemon Shrines

 

[soltakss]

4 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

I've always played that tainted by Chaos like Cave Trolls and Telmori is not the same as chaotic and does not trigger a Storm Bull's sense chaos.

I play that it absolutely does.

Zorak Zorani hate Chaos almost as much as Storm Bull, yet they allow Cave Trolls and Sea Trolls to live alongside other trolls without harming them. Why? Because they are fellow trolls.

It is one of the areas that Storm Bull and Zorak Zoran cultists don't agree on.

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, soltakss said:

Zorak Zorani hate Chaos almost as much as Storm Bull, yet they allow Cave Trolls and Sea Trolls to live alongside other trolls without harming them. Why? Because they are fellow trolls.

I am not sure about Sea Trolls, but Cave Trolls make great Zombies. That in itself is a great reason for a Zorak Zorani to keep them around.

[Kargzant]

Reading the Cult Compendium I noticed that there's a Cacodemon Rune Spell called False Form that lets Ogre worshipers appear to be unremarkable humans. I don't think it erases their Chaotic taint, but it does mask their cult tattoo and make it a lot easier for them to pass as human for a season. Technically any worshiper of Cacodemon can use it, but it's definitely most useful for Ogres.

[Akhôrahil]

On 3/25/2022 at 2:48 PM, Soccercalle said:

How about Storm Bull Detect Chaos and Telmori? The later got a chaotic taint by Gbaji.

Sure. Each Chaos is All Chaos. But apparently, social conditions (such as royal protection) can be enough to not start wailing on them.

[Godlearner]

 

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

But apparently, social conditions (such as royal protection) can be enough to not start wailing on them.

I would not be so sure about that. I can easily see that it would not stop most Storm Bull worshippers.

[JustAnotherVingan]

7 hours ago, Godlearner said:

 

I would not be so sure about that. I can easily see that it would not stop most Storm Bull worshippers.

Shouldn't stop Orlanth Windlords either if they take their duties seriously.

And the Telmori bodyguards of the royal house of Sartar would encounter a lot of tribal and religious leaders.

[Akhôrahil]

44 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

Shouldn't stop Orlanth Windlords either if they take their duties seriously.

And the Telmori bodyguards of the royal house of Sartar would encounter a lot of tribal and religious leaders.

My interpretation here is that there’s an amount of give for both. They’re supposed to go ”Foul slime…” or just start chopping respectively, but certain circumstances get to override it and apparently the Spirits of Reprisal think this is alright.

This is a bit like how Storm Bulls are duty-bound to search out Chaos, but apparently don’t have to attack Snake Pipe Hollow or Dorastor all the time anyway. Practicalities seem to be allowed.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

By the way, what did the royal bodyguarding look like on Wilddays? Were they able to do their job even then?

Edited March 27, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[soltakss]

57 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

My interpretation here is that there’s an amount of give for both. They’re supposed to go ”Foul slime…” or just start chopping respectively, but certain circumstances get to override it and apparently the Spirits of Reprisal think this is alright.

If a Wind Lord meets a Telmori they can start with the "Foul Slime, Curse of existence, Lie and whimper before me", then the Telmori simply lies and whimpers before them, the Gloranthan equivalent of BAD DOG!

 

[Akhôrahil]

17 minutes ago, soltakss said:

If a Wind Lord meets a Telmori they can start with the "Foul Slime, Curse of existence, Lie and whimper before me", then the Telmori simply lies and whimpers before them, the Gloranthan equivalent of BAD DOG!

I think calling out the royal bodyguard that way would... lead to complications.

[Shiningbrow]

I would imagine Passions would need rolling... both sides using Loyalty.

[Joerg]

On 3/22/2022 at 7:27 PM, Runeblogger said:

No, I don't think so. I think ogres are always wary of approaching Storm Bull cultists so they can slink away before the berserkers can detect them.

A "Sense Storm Bull" skill?

 

  

On 3/23/2022 at 1:11 AM, svensson said:

Yes, Bulls can sense ogres.

In order to join a cult without detecting as Chaos, they would need to be Illuminated or be under a spell like Detection Blank or False Face. And that would be hard to keep going for the duration of most initiation rituals. It CAN be done... with enough Extension you can do a lot. But it is difficult and, of course, the sentence for failing is death.

So, does your Glorantha hire Storm Bull examiners to check all candidates for initiation for Chaos traits, or would your Gloranthans be (righteously or mischeviously) be outraged at the implied accusation of being chaos-harboring scum?

If your answer is yes, then in your Glorantha McCarthy has a field day.

 

On 3/23/2022 at 6:00 PM, JRE said:

Related to this, I play that all cults with access to Divination will cast it (usually just one point, unless there are suspicions or reasons to expect greatness) before initiation to ask if the candidate will be a good initiate.

An answer "I do not know her" may be good for a River God, or even a City God, as it assumes the candidate is not an enemy, till now, but it would be insufficient for an earth cult, as that means you are a stranger, or Issaries, which means no trade contacts. 

A god's knowledge of things in the mortal world is limited to what happens in their domain. Sensing Chaos falls into the domain of the Bull, and no other gods.

Can the cultists of a deity use their worship or other rites to update the deity on community gossip, and make that available as part of their divination? If so, does hearsay slip into divine pronouncements?

Other than Storm Bull, I see few cults where an ogre would be revealed to the deity sooner or later. The mandatory vegetarian initiates of Chalana Arroy should be hard to infiltrate for ogres, even on a diet of aldryami.

Orlanth has a certain stake in marital fidelity thanks to his marriage to Ernalda, but then there are aspects of Orlanth which require him to perform sexual activities outside of the bond of marriage, or that represent a younger, yet unwed deity that coexists with the married one. So how good will Orlanth be at detecting marital infidelity of one of his initiates? And who will send the impests on that perp, the deity, or the local cult? On what evidence?

 

My question is: how does the deity learn about the candidate being chaotic? Imagine someone initiated to a deity not hostile to the new cult (and vice versa), would the divination of the new cult deity be able to provide any inside data from the other cult? And why would that be the case?

The phrasing "Will X be ..." also assumes that the deity has knowledge of a future yet to be shaped by the multitude of entities exercising their free will, leading that concept ad absurdum.

And yet a mortal's free will is what makes them different from a deity establlished on the Other Side.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Joerg

[Dragon]

50 minutes ago, Joerg said:

So, does your Glorantha hire Storm Bull examiners to check all candidates for initiation for Chaos traits, or would your Gloranthans be (righteously or mischeviously) be outraged at the implied accusation of being chaos-harboring scum?

If your answer is yes, then in your Glorantha McCarthy has a field day.

What happens when the Storm Bull rolls a fumble when close to the hundredth normal humanoid candidate? Which will happen 1% to 5% of the time. The Core Rules do not state what happens on a fumble. If it that the Storm Bull wrongly gets that pain of Chaos, and yells out 'There is Chaos about' could have nasty repercussions.

[Godlearner]

8 hours ago, Dragon said:

What happens when the Storm Bull rolls a fumble

He kills it anyway and lets Storm Bull sort it out. Being a Storm Bull means you never doubt.

[Akhôrahil]

15 hours ago, Dragon said:

What happens when the Storm Bull rolls a fumble when close to the hundredth normal humanoid candidate? Which will happen 1% to 5% of the time. The Core Rules do not state what happens on a fumble. If it that the Storm Bull wrongly gets that pain of Chaos, and yells out 'There is Chaos about' could have nasty repercussions.

This actually might be part of why they keep in bands. Majority opinion out of five people’s Sense Chaos is a lot sounder (both for Type 1 and Type 2 errors).