Can a Stormbull sense an Ogre

[Ironwall]

so the Bestiary states the ogres innate chaotic taint wont give them away when joining non chaos cults. does this extend to  A stormbulls sense chaos?

[Runeblogger]

No, I don't think so. I think ogres are always wary of approaching Storm Bull cultists so they can slink away before the berserkers can detect them.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Ironwall said:

so the Bestiary states the ogres innate chaotic taint wont give them away when joining non chaos cults. does this extend to  A stormbulls sense chaos?

for me yes

bestiary says : "Other intelligent creatures of Chaos will recognize ogres by their aura and usually not attack them" so stormbull sense should detect them. They have too chaos rune at 60%

 

but Ogres may have some spells to help them

and above all, Ogres may be smart (no more no less than humans)

they can avoid the storm buller presence,

or at least be far enough (few meters I think ?) to not be detected,

or have some tricks (yes there is chaos somewhere, but not me... oh wait ! Am I hearing some broo near this door ... ?)

 

 

[Godlearner]

5 hours ago, Ironwall said:

so the Bestiary states the ogres innate chaotic taint wont give them away when joining non chaos cults. does this extend to  A stormbulls sense chaos?

Ogres are detectable by Sense Chaos (same as Broos) even if they do not have a Chaos Feature. In regard to joining other cults, I would say no without being Illuminated or a False Form Cacodemon spell. Note that Illumination would protect them against Sense Chaos but False Form would not.

[svensson]

Yes, Bulls can sense ogres.

In order to join a cult without detecting as Chaos, they would need to be Illuminated or be under a spell like Detection Blank or False Face. And that would be hard to keep going for the duration of most initiation rituals. It CAN be done... with enough Extension you can do a lot. But it is difficult and, of course, the sentence for failing is death.

[Ironwall]

In response to the two comments above the bestiary said it was a feature they had

[Ironwall]

Here's the excerpt from the book

[Shiningbrow]

Firstly,  it says "join", not "initiate into", do being a Lay Member would qualify,  and not draw attention.

Secondly,  they might be able to get into Humakt.

[JustAnotherVingan]

There was a story in a Chaosium publication I think featuring an ogre WindLord.

Reading the skill entry RQG p183 

The skill does not single out the source, but rather gives the Storm Bull cultist a sense of unease or even pain, and the knowledge that Chaos is close at hand.

If an ogre is in a crowd a Storm Bull cultist won't know the ogre is chaotic, just that chaos is near.

Pretty certain an ogre can join any cult except Storm Bull fine although their chaotic nature may give them away eventually.

[French Desperate WindChild]

6 hours ago, Ironwall said:

In response to the two comments above the bestiary said it was a feature they had

that is not a feature, that is a behaviour, they can decide to join (or infiltrate) no chaotic cults.

that  doesn't mean they are undetectable. But cults who are not able to detect chaos, will not detect ogres.

 

 

stormbuller detects chaos and, even if they may not be the smarter (well, why not after all), they should have in their process of acceptance a step of chaos detection more deeper than just check if the candidate as a tentacle (or other visible "feature")

[JustAnotherVingan]

25 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

that is not a feature, that is a behaviour, they can decide to join (or infiltrate) no chaotic cults.

that  doesn't mean they are undetectable. But cults who are not able to detect chaos, will not detect ogres.

 

 

stormbuller detects chaos and, even if they may not be the smarter (well, why not after all), they should have in their process of acceptance a step of chaos detection more deeper than just check if the candidate as a tentacle (or other visible "feature")

Eventually they will twig that they always get a headache when that nice, charming new member is around.

[RobNic]

This is in the RuneQuest section so I guess mechanics are important but maybe it is more interesting to consider that Chaos is corrupting and insidious, and that it can hide in plain sight and that maybe Storm Bull senses aren't always sufficient? What would a society do if their defence against Chaos is unreliable?

[Godlearner]

8 hours ago, Ironwall said:

In response to the two comments above the bestiary said it was a feature they had

And note that it does not say which cults. So, what is a "local" cult? City Gods, River Gods, Grain Goddess, etc. In other words cults which have no means to determine if someone is Chaotic and rely on the person being known in the community.

 

12 hours ago, svensson said:

It CAN be done... with enough Extension

I believe False Form last for 8 hours.

[PhilHibbs]

20 hours ago, Ironwall said:

so the Bestiary states the ogres innate chaotic taint wont give them away when joining non chaos cults. does this extend to  A stormbulls sense chaos?

It does not say that. To me it says that they will join local cults, as long as their chaotic nature doesn't prevent it.

[Godlearner]

3 hours ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

Eventually they will twig that they always get a headache when that nice, charming new member is around.

That really depends on how you play "What does you deity know".  This is likely to branch into a whole separate topic, but IMW, a deity knows all myths which are associated with them as well as the sum of what their initiates tell them. Under that rule, there would never be a "headache" unless another initiate suspected that the new member is an ogre and mentioned it in their prayers. This information would then be passed along to the congregation as a "headache". 

[JustAnotherVingan]

56 minutes ago, Godlearner said:

That really depends on how you play "What does you deity know".  This is likely to branch into a whole separate topic, but IMW, a deity knows all myths which are associated with them as well as the sum of what their initiates tell them. Under that rule, there would never be a "headache" unless another initiate suspected that the new member is an ogre and mentioned it in their prayers. This information would then be passed along to the congregation as a "headache". 

I'd disagree with this.

A Storm Bull cultist doesn't have to know there are broos or other chaos around to sense chaos.

Its a sense, not information passed on by their god.

[Godlearner]

10 minutes ago, JustAnotherVingan said:

A Storm Bull cultist doesn't have to know there are broos or other chaos around to sense chaos.

I agree with this. I am excluding Storm Bulls from this as the information comes from their ability and not Storm Bull.

[JRE]

Related to this, I play that all cults with access to Divination will cast it (usually just one point, unless there are suspicions or reasons to expect greatness) before initiation to ask if the candidate will be a good initiate.

An answer "I do not know her" may be good for a River God, or even a City God, as it assumes the candidate is not an enemy, till now, but it would be insufficient for an earth cult, as that means you are a stranger, or Issaries, which means no trade contacts. 

That would require a smart ogre choosing Gods without divination, or with small areas of knowledge and open to almost anyone, as the mentioned River or City gods. Or remaining as a Lay member, which is probably the best choice. 

Storm Bulls are present in only a few areas of Glorantha, so Sense Chaos is not such a big threat to a Pelorian or Ralian Ogre. 

[Nick Brooke]

Storm Bulls are rightly seen as more disruptive in many places than quiet, well-behaved Ogres who just want to blend in socially and might occasionally eat someone who probably won’t be missed.

[soltakss]

23 hours ago, Ironwall said:

so the Bestiary states the ogres innate chaotic taint wont give them away when joining non chaos cults. does this extend to  A stormbulls sense chaos?

Yes, if they are tainted by Chaos they show up on Sense Chaos, at least they do in my games.

Unless, they are Illuminated, in which case they are Good Ogres.

 

[Godlearner]

8 hours ago, soltakss said:

in which case they are Good Ogres.

Zombie Ogres? 

[Darius West]

On 3/23/2022 at 4:49 AM, Ironwall said:

so the Bestiary states the ogres innate chaotic taint wont give them away when joining non chaos cults. does this extend to  A stormbulls sense chaos?

Yes, unequivocally a Storm Bull can sense chaos on ogres... That is why any ogre who is self- aware knows they need to get illuminated asap.  That being said, while ogres have a chaos taint and want to eat people, if they resist the urge they need not be considered evil.  Remember also that most Stormbulls regard ALL Lunars as chaos even if they don't detect as such (obviously they are all illuminated).  Any chaos=all chaos.  Nuanced shades of character and values are a bit lost on most Stormbulls.

The Bull Wind blows bulldust in the face of everyone, the stinging of the dust just hurts chaos worse.

[Mugen]

On 3/23/2022 at 5:17 AM, Ironwall said:

Here's the excerpt from the book

I have a completely different understanding of that sentence as the one you stated in the first post ("so the Bestiary states the ogres innate chaotic taint wont give them away when joining non chaos cults.").

To me, it clearly means that *if* an Ogre can join a cult where his Chaos Taints won't be a problem (either because the cult can't sense these, or the cult doesn't care), he may do it.

It's not a magical feature at all.

 

 

[AndrewTBP]

See The Smell of a Rat by Alan LaVergne in the RQ Classic RuneQuest Companion. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

17 hours ago, JRE said:

Related to this, I play that all cults with access to Divination will cast it (usually just one point, unless there are suspicions or reasons to expect greatness) before initiation to ask if the candidate will be a good initiate.

Seems to me the best way, just I would change "will be" (can glorantha gods see the future  ? not sure) by "could be"

 

17 hours ago, JRE said:

An answer "I do not know her" may be good for a River God, or even a City God, as it assumes the candidate is not an enemy, till now

mmm will you be initiate into any cult deep secret even the weakest without any proof of trust ? I don't make a so big difference between powerful gods and other gods.

Of course if the god has only 2 worshippers, one more initiate could be nice after only one ceremony... but from an established cult, seems to me daredevil

17 hours ago, JRE said:

but it would be insufficient for an earth cult, as that means you are a stranger, or Issaries, which means no trade contacts. 

That would require a smart ogre choosing Gods without divination, or with small areas of knowledge and open to almost anyone, as the mentioned River or City gods. Or remaining as a Lay member, which is probably the best choice. 

for sure, and after some seasons of "good standing"  as lay member (don't eat anyone, fool !) our long teeth friend is now well known by Issaries, Ernalda  & friends... and can candidate as initiate !

And maybe, because is well known, and well appreciated, the priest will not ask these troublesome stormbullers to evaluate the candidate