Unwilling Hero Quest Opponent - Hero Quest Basics

[Erol of Backford]

I am curious if there is a Hero Quest Challenge and the opponent doesn't wish to accept the challenge does it not happen?

Where is there a description as to what is wagered and if Hero Points may be added to influence the outcome?

I like the idea of running RQ3 with Hero Quests integrated but am worried it'll turn out as an operator's error...

I have the sorties/myths/paths etc. for several Hero Quests but what is the most basic one that is spelled out like ABC's and has the Hero Point stuff detailed as well? 

(Please move this post to wherever it should be.)

 

[Joerg]

15 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I am curious if there is a Hero Quest Challenge and the opponent doesn't wish to accept the challenge does it not happen?

That's an automatic loss of identification for the opposing quester. The quester may retain their magic but will fail their quest.

15 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Where is there a description as to what is wagered and if Hero Points may be added to influence the outcome?

Using HeroQuest 1 rules: By both sides.

15 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I like the idea of running RQ3 with Hero Quests integrated but am worried it'll turn out as an operator's error...

The RQ3 character sheet lacks categories to wager stuff other than gifts received from geases.

 

15 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I have the sorties/myths/paths etc. for several Hero Quests but what is the most basic one that is spelled out like ABC's and has the Hero Point stuff detailed as well? 

No such detail survives contact with player actions, at least in my experience. You'll need to improvise anyway, and you need to find a "power level" you feel comfortable to run your game with.

[Runeblogger]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

 

The RQ3 character sheet lacks categories to wager stuff other than gifts received from geases.

On the contrary, I think everything on the RQG character sheet can be used as a wager: skills, characteristics, passions and even runes. In the HQ Glorantha rulebook there is a myth in which the hero wagers his skill with the javelin that he can catch Asrelia’s Dancing Jar, for example.

If you lose the challenge, you lose that skill and it is reduced to its basic %. Of course, I’d rule you can only wager skills and such that you have a high % in.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

On the contrary, I think everything on the RQG character sheet can be used as a wager:

I was especially mentioning the RQ3 character sheet.

On the RQG sheet, I am willing to wager runes and passions - basically what you are. Gifts might be ok, and so are possessions and bound spirits.

Knowledge may be shared, rather than wagered, and that may include most skills. 

 

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

skills, characteristics, passions and even runes.

Funny - my sequence of things to wager on the RQG sheet would be runes first, passions second, characteristics other than POW or CHA a distant third and skills as knowledge to be shared or leaked.

 

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

In the HQ Glorantha rulebook there is a myth in which the hero wagers his skill with the javelin that he can catch Asrelia’s Dancing Jar, for example.

Maybe in a weird gift/geas way, or after the hero establishes the heroic entity of his ability (never "skill rating in HQ). With the hero point mechanic in HQ to cement abilities, that heroic entity might be assumed, but I don't see the RQ check boxes as quite the same narratively.

 

1 hour ago, Runeblogger said:

If you lose the challenge, you lose that skill and it is reduced to its basic %. Of course, I’d rule you can only wager skills and such that you have a high % in.

Basically yes - I would be willing to wager a mastery in the skill, and possibly receiving something akin to a Humakti or Yelmalian geas "Never use X".

If your skill with the spear makes it into a nom-de-guerre or gets otherwise acknowledged by the people you encounter while questing, you may be able to bet it, but in HQ I would establish the availability of that ability for a wager with a roll. Bragging about stuff makes that easier. Having someone introduce you as a javelineer makes it easier, or possibly allows it without any challenge of worthiness.

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Joerg said:

19 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I am curious if there is a Hero Quest Challenge and the opponent doesn't wish to accept the challenge does it not happen?

That's an automatic loss of identification for the opposing quester. The quester may retain their magic but will fail their quest.

So, abstracting from particular/detailed game system mechanics, what happens when questers identifying with gods with different, clashing myths meet?

For example:

• Cult of A says god A met god B and they fought over item C (which A had a firm hold of) and god B made off with item C
• Cult of B says that god A and god B never met, that god B had always possessed item C, and that cult of A are dirty stinking liars
• Cult of A heroquester is performing the loss of item C heroquest and meets cult of B heroquester performing some unrelated quest
• Cult of A heroquester challenges cult of B quester to fight over item C
• Cult of B heroquester says, “Go away, I never met you, and besides I have item C in my backpack already.”
• In this situation, “cult of B heroquester automatically loses identification” seems harsh

Myths — and so heroquests — will conflict like this. In a game where contradictions are not allowed, you just hand someone the shitty end of the stick: it turns out their cult was lying to them/had smoked too much hazia/imbibed too much reindeer urine — shit happens, and people (players and PCs) know this going in. But in Gloranthan games, where otherworlds/myths can contain contradictions, how does one handle it? Play the scene twice, with cult of A heroquester reporting that cult of B quester failed, and with cult of B getting a re-run with identification kept and maybe going on to succeed in their quite different quest, and definitely not reporting acquisition of item C from cult of A heroquester?

(If cult of B heroquesters will never take up the challenge — in their playbook, the encounter never happened — how will cult of A questers ever get to succeed in their quest to get beaten up and robbed by cult of B questers, even if cult of B is represented by an NPC?)

Keep an eye on the myths in play and ensure that awkward PC-on-PC encounters never get started?

Of course, there are non-canon ways around this, but they will be unpalatable to many:

1. just play heroquests like any “normal” encounter, with usual consistency requirements
2. play heroquests as — albeit magical — drug dreams: you might obtain something real from your dream/quest/twitching fit on the mats of your hut, but in it you are fighting phantoms/delusions/your own unconscious, not any real third party (mortal or divine)

[Eff]

20 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I am curious if there is a Hero Quest Challenge and the opponent doesn't wish to accept the challenge does it not happen?

 

From what perspective? I think that there are a couple of scenarios here:

1) A PC is attempting to ferret out whether the opponent is a suitable one for their quest.

2) A PC knows, or thinks they know, the person they're facing and their "IRL"/materialspace identity, and is attempting to force them into the role of opponent for this quest.

3) A PC, their opponent, or both is attempting to alter the contours of the myth.

So I think that the first case is largely a failure case- one area where the GM should be upfront, I think, is with the basic facts of the mythic situation. If this guy is in the role of Shargash and the PC is in the role of Orlanth, that is something that the player should be aware of at the beginning so that we can bypass the fairly uninteresting procedure of trying to get accurate information before getting a decision and move into the more interesting instances.

The second case pretty much collapses into the third, because what's really at stake here- the basic conflict that's happening in the moment- is that the player character or their opponent are trying to assert control of the situation. I think that this should therefore be resolved by an opposed contest between the participants. Make sure to clearly understand the intent of the player(s), because it's, in my opinion, not a zero-sum game by default- both sides are likely able to win, both sides are certainly able to lose.

Failure means- failure. You get ejected from the otherside, you take a serious penalty, something that marks that you fucked up. Mutual failure means that both participants seriously affected each other- but they pulled themselves out of sync with the environment, broke their astral projective trance, kicked them out of the high, etc. Mutual success, though, that's dependent on the situation.

Going back to Orlanth vs. Shargash, let's say the PC is trying to reshape a myth where Orlanth chases Shargash around the world, incidentally taking away the rain with him and leaving Daga free to run around, into one where Orlanth crushes Shargash right then and there. But the Shargashi, meanwhile, is trying to reshape matters into a myth where Shargash leads a much dumber storm entity, possibly Vadrus or Gagarth, into an ambush or a trap.

If they both succeed, then they both get some of what they want- Orlanth fights Shargash right then and there, but the PC has a penalty using anything other than sheer brute force to fight. And maybe when they get back, what happens is that the dry spell is broken but it's accompanied by a tornado or tornadoes. Or maybe they get a flash of insight on how to defeat the Yelmalio or Lodril worshipers, but the insight relies on them leading a foolhardy attack... Many possibilities.

[Joerg]

Storm encountering Shargash is tricky - if the Shargash side can push Storm into the role of Umath, that's very bad news. Orlanth never mangaged to slay or destroy Shargash, not even after his conquest of the Skies. He did fend Shargash off numerous times, emerging with his goals fulfilled and Shargash thwarted, but never destroyed. Other than Umath, there is also Pamaltelan Bredjeg overcome by (the sword of) Tolat.

Two opposing heroquesting parties may not agree on the myth they were following to the encounter, and establishing which of the parties is more correct is half or more of the contest.

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Orlanth never mangaged to slay or destroy Shargash

Probably because the only way to destroy War is with Peace (or perhaps Love) - something that belongs to Ernalda or Chalana Arroy (or maybe Uleria).

[Erol of Backford]

58 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Probably because the only way to destroy War is with Peace (or perhaps Love)

Surely death would destroy Shargash...

[svensson]

On 12/16/2022 at 10:41 AM, Erol of Backford said:

I am curious if there is a Hero Quest Challenge and the opponent doesn't wish to accept the challenge does it not happen?

Where is there a description as to what is wagered and if Hero Points may be added to influence the outcome?

I like the idea of running RQ3 with Hero Quests integrated but am worried it'll turn out as an operator's error...

I have the sorties/myths/paths etc. for several Hero Quests but what is the most basic one that is spelled out like ABC's and has the Hero Point stuff detailed as well? 

(Please move this post to wherever it should be.)

 

Good questions, though I really do think that RQ3 is probably too 'granular' or 'ticky-tack' to do HeroQuesting with. I personally like the RQG Runes and Passions to help manage the various ebbs and flows of a HeroQuest in addition to the skills checks. But that's just me, YGMV and what not.

I really like your basic question of 'Is it possible to be an 'involuntary hero' in a HeroQuest?'. One would presume that in order to enter into the Gods Plane as the focal point of mythic interactions one would almost have to accept the burdens and challenges. But this brings up a question that might be a bit of a digression from your original intent. Please bear with me...

- We have several examples over multiple editions of player characters or narrators encountering people who are 'on a HeroQuest' but are still present in and interacting with the Mundane Plane. Specifically, Biturian Varosh in 'Cults of Prax' when he encounters Rurik Runespear, first in a ritual reenactment of the Three Blows of Anger myth and later, 'with the light of HeroQuesting in his eyes' asking about the armor Biturian won that day. Then we have the encounter with Jardarin the Sun Lord in 'The Pegasus Plateau' who is specifically stated as 'being on a HeroQuest' but is still interacting with the player characters on the Mundane Plane. But we also have outright statements in multiple editions that speak of a given hero actually going to the Celestial Realms [Kallyr Starbrow] or physically traveling the Hells [Sarostip Prince-Killer in RQG, and the Hands of Hofstaring HeroQuest from 'Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes' the HQ game system].

All this begs the question, "Is 'HeroQuesting' a mental state [sort of a religious fugue state], a physical passage to the Gods Plane, or both?".

If HQs are in the physical world, then certainly someone could involuntarily find themselves part of the Quest. If it's transporting oneself to the Gods Plane, I can't see how a 'Hero-conscript' could be transported from one plane to another without consent. That doesn't mean it can't happen, of course.

Edited December 19, 2022 by svensson

[Erol of Backford]

So if an Orlanthi female seduces a Lunar male during a Hero Quest that happens to be a Lunar ritual would the child be special in any way knowing it was begotten on the Hero Plane or would it be a normal typical human?

[Nick Brooke]

As Greg Stafford would doubtless say, "Yes." 😜

[jajagappa]

13 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

Surely death would destroy Shargash...

Shargash and Orlanth are not men.  They are gods who embody certain archetypes (War and Storm).  BOTH wield Death.  Shargash already knocked Orlanth's father out of the Sky.  What is the death that kills War?  It's not Storm...  

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, svensson said:

We have several examples over multiple editions of player characters or narrators encountering people who are 'on a HeroQuest' but are still present in and interacting with the Mundane Plane … All this begs the question, "Is 'HeroQuesting' a mental state [sort of a religious fugue state], a physical passage to the Gods Plane, or both?"

Here’s the boring answer (not original to me): if I set off to find the holy grail, I am likely already a little crazy, but not necessarily entry in the APA crazy; I may need to pass into an exotic mental state and/or some otherworld to complete my quest, but I will probably be in mundane locations and mental states for much of my quest. Someone can be “on a heroquest” even when few or none of the special heroquest game rules apply.

Personally, I am a fan of characters not always knowing when they have “entered faerie” — not knowing when “the acid has kicked in” — and it is fine to have the quester see things that others sharing the mundane world with them cannot see; the planes overlap, if you like.

The touchstone for me is always Eric Rohmer’s Perceval le Gallois for look and feel.

To others, that probably sounds like no fun at all.

[Joerg]

8 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Shargash and Orlanth are not men.  They are gods who embody certain archetypes (War and Storm).  BOTH wield Death.  Shargash already knocked Orlanth's father out of the Sky.  What is the death that kills War?  It's not Storm...  

According to Plentonius (GRoY), Shargash destroyed everything, and then himself, towards the extreme of the Greater Darkness.

[jajagappa]

4 minutes ago, Joerg said:

According to Plentonius (GRoY), Shargash destroyed everything, and then himself, towards the extreme of the Greater Darkness.

Agree - if there's nothing left to destroy or wage war upon, then he's effectively destroyed himself.

[JRE]

Almost all remaining deities died and met in hell to craft the Compromise. So there must be myths of that, even if it is just "killed itself because there did not remain anything left to kill". 

I agree with Eff that most well established heroquests are not a zero sum game, so both sides can win. Take a classical Hill of Gold. An orlanthi gets some item enchanted or access to Shield, a ZZ reaffirms his mastery of fire, possibly getting access to a one use Sunspear, and a Yelmalion gets that his community will need half the normal food to weather the Dark season, losing some easily replaced armour and reaffirming his inability to use fire. If all goes well, the Yelmalion is probably the big winner, but the others win too.

The problem is with creative heroquesting, as in that case you are usually wishing to hamper or weaken someone, and any heroquester drawn into it may not really know what is the myth represented.

I play that not always is your opposition heroquesters from opposing pantheons, though that happens from time to time. In many cases, specially when following a well trod myth the opposition is a figment of the Hero Plane, some cult spirit of the right characterization. I play hero plane creatures as dull and inflexible, while living questers are creative and often introduce small or big changes.

Creative heroquesting will almost always bring some conscious opposition. After all, that is one of the main roles of rune levels, do ceremonies in your temple that reaffirm the myths as you know them. So if you heroquest to weaken Orlanth by making his father someone other than Umath (usually by making sure Umath does not meet Kero Fin, meanwhile having someone representing the storm godling of your choice seduce the mountain) you may well face thousands of questers from temples all over Genertela. While if you just want to make the Lismelder's bulls shoot blanks for the coming year (possibly spiritually castrating them, or stealing their seed, depending how you plan on doing it), only the Lismelder may oppose it, and if they are focusing on something else this Holy Time, it is likely the opposition will be Hero plane simulacrums (typically Lismelder spirits and ancestors, but less flexible than living ones).

[metcalph]

The mythlet of Shargash's end (source: the Story of Our Goddess, called Rufelza)

Eons end

Shargash the Destroyer

Slew Life

Slew Death

Even Himself

Shargash is the God of Destruction.  When Yelm was slain then Shargash began to destroy everything which was an enemy to him and Yelm.  Then Shargash slew everything he didn't like.  Then he slew everything else, and finally even himself.

 

[svensson]

@mfbrandi

But when Persival accepted the Grail quest, does that not suppose that he accepted a HeroQuest? To use your analogy, the brother knew he'd dropped acid so he's just waiting for it to kick in. Sir Percival knew that he was on a great undertaking and CHOSE to enter into myth, even if he didn't know when or where he would find it. Even if he was never translated into the Mansions of the Lord and come into the presence of The Christ, encountering the Grail at all is a significant sacred moment that Percival chose to attempt. And no, I'm not confusing him with Sir Galahad. Sir Percival, the least worldly and most innocent of the Ko/tRT, also swore to the Grail Quest.

For that matter, one would be hard-pressed to find a greater quest in Christendom [at least the highly idealized no-faults Christendom of the Ko/tRT] than the [Hero]Quest of the Holy Grail. And if at this point you hear Indiana Jones saying, 'This is the cup of a carpenter's son.', you're on the right track 😁

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

And no, I'm not confusing him with Sir Galahad. Sir Percival, the least worldly and most innocent of the Ko/tRT, also swore to the Grail Quest.

Sure, my reference to the Rohmer flick wasn’t accidental. As an atheist with “godless bastard” written through my bones as if they were sticks of Brighton rock, I reckon the “vision” scene (or whatever you want to call it) in Perceval le Gallois is as close to understanding Christianity as I am ever likely to get. (Rohmer was a devout Catholic.)

As to whether all those on heroquests understand that they are — or understand what that means even if they know they are — I would think it is more fun if some don’t: sometimes, the “brother” gets spiked and wouldn’t know a psychedelic from a hole in the ground; they stumble into the quest and become “heroic” by learning on the job. But some people will have snagged a copy of the Haynes manual from the Godlearners (or some dodgy Arkati in an underground carpark) or cribbed the game rules via transdimensional timewarp from a future Chaosium publication — IMHO, these people have no soul and are trading in adventure for a tough day on the factory floor. I think it is a blessing that we don’t have a current set of approved heroquest rules.

Of course, I exaggerate a little for (mildly) comic effect, and I think that everyone should conceive of heroquests in a way that suits them, and that when there are official, comprehensive, rubber-stamped RQG heroquest rules, many people will love them. [Sits in the corner smugly polishing a stolen halo of tolerance and inclusivity.]

[Nick Brooke]

18 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Of course, I exaggerate a little for (mildly) comic effect, and I think that everyone should conceive of heroquests in a way that suits them, and that when there are official, comprehensive, rubber-stamped RQG heroquest rules, many people will love them. [Sits in the corner smugly polishing a stolen halo of tolerance and inclusivity.]

I’m looking forward to having an “official” set of heroquesting rules, as that’ll give me yet another set of expectations to subvert when I keep on running heroquests my way.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 12/17/2022 at 11:05 PM, jajagappa said:

Probably because the only way to destroy War is with Peace (or perhaps Love) - something that belongs to Ernalda or Chalana Arroy (or maybe Uleria).

the big issue, if war is destroyed, is what will be the new glorantha ? a world where there is no warrior as there is no war. It will disturb so much the societies (from far west to far east) so many gods will have fewer sense (even Orlanth and Yelm) so who want it ?

is

Chalana Arroy able to manage a world without war ? will mortals suffer less or more without war (and its impact) ?

is Enarlda able to manage a world without protector husbands, or with husbands always with her, as she cannot send to war , to be a little bit...quiet ? how women will choose their husbands, if they can't prove their virtus ?

i m speaking from a gloranthan perspective, nothing about my personal irl view , don't judge me 😛

On 12/16/2022 at 7:41 PM, Erol of Backford said:

I am curious if there is a Hero Quest Challenge and the opponent doesn't wish to accept the challenge does it not happen?

the right answer in my opinion is @Nick Brooke 's just before post

the point here is how the opponents are designed as opponents ?

if they (heroquestors and "opponents") are in the same ritual (for example you take some captives and " gently ask" them to wear the mask of opposite deities), I would say that some pow-will or devotion gods rolls could be use to decide if they are sent or stay in the mundane world. Of course if they have to play their own god, a devoted worshipper would accept to take the role ( = roll against the devotion roll if you hope to not be sent)

 

if the opponents are not part of the ritual, how could even be designed as opponents ? the heroquestors enter the god plane, now they are /wear the mask of their gods and who they meet are gods *  I don't say that random people will not enter the god plane unintentionnaly just I m not sure that the opponents of the heroquestors will be anyone they expect / designate or even they know

 

* at least that is what they see if they are "good" worshippers : not illuminate, not god learners, nothing in the background explaining why the heroquestors remember who they are and are able to "stay" in the god plane as mundane guests... -

[Eff]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

As to whether all those on heroquests understand that they are — or understand what that means even if they know they are — I would think it is more fun if some don’t: sometimes, the “brother” gets spiked and wouldn’t know a psychedelic from a hole in the ground; they stumble into the quest and become “heroic” by learning on the job. But some people will have snagged a copy of the Haynes manual from the Godlearners (or some dodgy Arkati in an underground carpark) or cribbed the game rules via transdimensional timewarp from a future Chaosium publication — IMHO, these people have no soul and are trading in adventure for a tough day on the factory floor. I think it is a blessing that we don’t have a current set of approved heroquest rules.

Mmmm. I think that my preference is that, regardless of character knowledge, players should have rules they can interact with, because one of the great bits of fun is the back-and-forth of player characters pressing buttons and flipping switches on the universe's control systems and the referee or GM developing out the implications of their intentional actions. Like in "It's a Wonderful Life". 

[PhilHibbs]

On 12/17/2022 at 2:46 PM, mfbrandi said:

For example:

• Cult of A says god A met god B and they fought over item C (which A had a firm hold of) and god B made off with item C
• Cult of B says that god A and god B never met, that god B had always possessed item C, and that cult of A are dirty stinking liars

Then that is the nature of the challenge, "My god encountered your god" versus "Our gods never met". If B wins then A is clearly in the role of another entity from B's myths and their identity is weakened.

Edited December 19, 2022 by PhilHibbs

[soltakss]

On 12/16/2022 at 6:41 PM, Erol of Backford said:

I am curious if there is a Hero Quest Challenge and the opponent doesn't wish to accept the challenge does it not happen?

My gut feeling is that not accepting the HeroQuest Challenge results in a deviation, especially if you are on a Re-enactment HeroQuest. You don't necessarily fail the HeroQuest, you are simply on another, possibly untrod, path. So, in the Birth of Babeester Gor HeroQuest, if Babeester Gor does not accept the challenge of opposing Zorak Zoran attacking Ernalda, then Ernalda might die, Babeester Gor might not be born and Zorak Zoran might keep his Axe, in reality the Zorak Zorani might be able to use Axe at Maul chance, effectively a permanent Tree Chopper Song effect, the Ernaldan might tale an unhealable wound and the Babeester Gori might be unable to use an axe.

The consequences could be minor, or could be severe. It depends on the HeroQuest and the situiation.

On 12/16/2022 at 6:41 PM, Erol of Backford said:

Where is there a description as to what is wagered and if Hero Points may be added to influence the outcome?

I just play Spell for Spell, Skill for Skill, Ability for Ability.

So, in RQ terms, if you wager a spell and lose then you lose the spell, however if you win you gain the opponent's wagered spell. If you wager a skill you could lose all the skill, and the opponent's skill could be increased by your skill value, or you wager an amount of skill, say 50, and the loser loses 50 from their skill, with the winner gaining 5. Abilities are simply lost/gained, so Soltak Stormspear could wager his Immunity to Detect Life ability and could gain Permanent Mobility, for example.

 

In HeroQuest/QuestWorlds terms, you could gamble some of your Rating , a Breakout or a Keyword. If you gamble part of your Rating, the loser loses the amount gambled and the winner gains it, so Soltak Stormspear could gain +10 in his Storm Rune and Derak the Dark Troll might lose -10 from his Darkness Rune. If you gamble a Breakout, the loser loses it and the winner gains it. Same with Keywords, the loser loses the entire Keyword, with Breakouts, and the winner gains the Keyword. 

 

On 12/16/2022 at 6:41 PM, Erol of Backford said:

I have the sorties/myths/paths etc. for several Hero Quests but what is the most basic one that is spelled out like ABC's and has the Hero Point stuff detailed as well? 

Hero Points appeared in HeroQuest and Mongoose's RuneQuest versions, I think.

You could use them as they are described in the rules. 

I am not sure what you mean by detailing the Hero Point stuff.