HEADS UP!!!! Here it is!!

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, g33k said:

The overarching conflict is the expansion of the Lunar Empire (under Sedenya, the Red Moon Goddess) running up against the Kingdom of Sartar (most of whom worship the "Lightbringer" pantheon under the Storm-God Orlanth).

A storm god, you know, like Yahweh. And I hope it is fair to say that like Yahweh, Orlanth is a god with a relationship with his people, and if you breathe the air, he will let you into his cult. So if you think of the Orlanthi as the Israelites of the Hebrew Bible, it might be productive. In this respect, the Orlanthi religion is “modern”. Watch out for windy prophets and wannabe messiahs — they are trouble.

Whereas the top gods of the Lunar Empire — the Moon & the Sun — are rather more distant from “their” people: the Emperor worships and maybe is the Sun but hoi polloi do not (think Akhenaten?); mystics in the religious elite are initiated to the Moon, not Waynetta Slob on the street and not even your average Lunar missionary. The Lunar/Solar religion is “old-school” in that an elite — including the ruler himself — stands between the people and the supreme godhead. But this situation is not stable.

This is an attempt at an alternative to the usual explanations: don’t swallow it, just chew it for the bitter flavour (and the psychoactive drugs) and then spit it out.

[g33k]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

A storm god, you know, like Yahweh. And I hope it is fair to say that like Yahweh, Orlanth is a god with a relationship with his people, and if you breathe the air, he will let you into his cult. So if you think of the Orlanthi as the Israelites of the Hebrew Bible, it might be productive. In this respect, the Orlanthi religion is “modern”. Watch out for windy prophets and wannabe messiahs — they are trouble.

Whereas the top gods of the Lunar Empire — the Moon & the Sun — are rather more distant from “their” people: the Emperor worships and maybe is the Sun but hoi polloi do not (think Akhenaten?); mystics in the religious elite are initiated to the Moon, not Waynetta Slob on the street and not even your average Lunar missionary. The Lunar/Solar religion is “old-school” in that an elite — including the ruler himself — stands between the people and the supreme godhead. But this situation is not stable.

This is an attempt at an alternative to the usual explanations: don’t swallow it, just chew it for the bitter flavour (and the psychoactive drugs) and then spit it out.

Honestly, I don't think this is all that helpful to the newbie perspective (I was replying to a new-to-RQ 1st-time poster).

It's delving deeper into the lore, and alternative perspectives; it is muddying rather than clarifying.

 

Edited March 9, 2023 by g33k

[Joerg]

7 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Whereas the top gods of the Lunar Empire — the Moon & the Sun — are rather more distant from “their” people: the Emperor worships and maybe is the Sun but hoi polloi do not (think Akhenaten?);

You are confusing RuneQuest initiation with worship here. The number of initiates may be low, but the number of (lay) worshipers is the adult population of the Heartlands.

 

7 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

mystics in the religious elite are initiated to the Moon, not Waynetta Slob on the street and not even your average Lunar missionary.

There is a grass roots illumination movement with agitators spreading riddles and "mobs" of simple folk without any possessions (or goals) hanging on their every word.

 

7 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

The Lunar/Solar religion is “old-school” in that an elite — including the ruler himself — stands between the people and the supreme godhead. But this situation is not stable.

The Lunar Way is open for everybody, regardless of birth caste. Not all entry paths lead to the top, though.

 

[svensson]

@Joerg

But lay worshipers do not devote POW or gain benefits. Lay Worshipers are a zero-sum participant, really

And while the Lunar Way is open to everyone, there is almost no guard rail or safety net for those same people to find the very negative aspects of the Lunar Way. A lot of converts find their way into become Tap monkeys for Lunar Sorcery, get fed to the Crimson Bat, find themselves enslaved, or fed into the arenas to die for the entertainment of their 'betters'.

The Lunar Way offers the possibility of more enlightenment, but at a very considerable price. This nonsensical theme of 'the Lunar Way is the better way' and Sedenya apologists is cute and all, but Argrath ends up destroying the Red Moon and everything she built.

[metcalph]

48 minutes ago, svensson said:

@Joerg

But lay worshipers do not devote POW or gain benefits. Lay Worshipers are a zero-sum participant, really

They can obtain spirit magics and training.

48 minutes ago, svensson said:

A lot of converts find their way into become Tap monkeys for Lunar Sorcery, get fed to the Crimson Bat, find themselves enslaved, or fed into the arenas to die for the entertainment of their 'betters'.

I very much doubt this.  Lunar converts are privileged, not cattle.

 

[svensson]

36 minutes ago, metcalph said:

They can obtain spirit magics and training.

I very much doubt this.  Lunar converts are privileged, not cattle.

 

IIRC, magical and skill training are the preserves of initiates unless the lay worshiper is willing to pay retail rates.

In the Empire there are numerous ways to end up a slave, initiate or not, Lunar citizen or not. And given the percentage of Illuminates among Lunar Sorcerers, there isn't a whole lot in the way of moral qualms about using a slave, ANY slave, as a Tap puppet.

Furthermore, I submit to you that a clan chief is more familiar with and more about the clan members than any member of the Lunar bureaucracy 'cares' for any citizen at all.

Edited March 9, 2023 by svensson

[Joerg]

17 minutes ago, svensson said:

IIRC, magical and skill training are the preserves of initiates unless the lay worshiper is willing to pay retail rates.

In the Empire there are numerous ways to end up a slave, initiate or not, Lunar citizen or not. And given the percentage of Illuminates among Lunar Sorcerers, there isn't a whole lot in the way of moral qualms about using a slave, ANY slave, as a Tap puppet.

The need to tap people has largely gone now that we have spells that tap the power of Orlanth directly (Steal Breath doesn't have to be cast on people, it will work on even still air). Tapping captured enemies might be seen as good use of spoilt resources, but tapping s

 

17 minutes ago, svensson said:

Furthermore, I submit to you that a clan chief is more familiar with and more about the clan members than any member of the Lunar bureaucracy 'cares' for any citizen at all.

Pelorian families (Lodrilites) have similar sizes of kinship groups and mutual care. Leaders of such kinship groups are comparable to clan chiefs in terms of care.

A member of an administration is ideally somewhat remote from their administrative unit. A Kitori shadowlord and  Lunar tax collector have about the same amount of care for their clientele.

Most Lunar officials will be part of a network of noble houses ultimately headed by some of the great families of the Empire, which is little different from how the Houses of Esrolia are nested under the Great Enfranchised Houses. As such, these officials will remain thankful to their sponsors, keeping a benevolent eye on those who operate under the aegis of said sponsors. This form of tribalism is not that different from actual tribal societies.

 

[metcalph]

37 minutes ago, svensson said:

IIRC, magical and skill training are the preserves of initiates unless the lay worshiper is willing to pay retail rates.

Nope.  RQG p274 sez otherwise and that's been the case as far back as Cults of Prax.

37 minutes ago, svensson said:

In the Empire there are numerous ways to end up a slave, initiate or not, Lunar citizen or not. And given the percentage of Illuminates among Lunar Sorcerers, there isn't a whole lot in the way of moral qualms about using a slave, ANY slave, as a Tap puppet.

Your original comment was to the effect that this happened to a "lot of converts" . Merely because it could happen does not make it a common occurrence.  

 

[jajagappa]

5 hours ago, svensson said:

But lay worshipers do not devote POW or gain benefits. Lay Worshipers are a zero-sum participant, really

But they do offer magic points, which while it doesn't gain Rune spells, does connect them to the worship ceremony (even if at a distance) and more specifically helps ensure the blessings to the community. That is not a zero-sum situation at a collective level.

[mfbrandi]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Lunar Way is open for everybody, regardless of birth caste. Not all entry paths lead to the top, though.

Oi! I didn’t mean to cause so much kerfuffle.

I was prompted by just having picked up a book on ancient political thought — which links political organisation and cult — and by recent emphasis by Jeff on the non-Chaotic nature of the Seven Mothers: communing with Our Lady of Chaos reserved for illuminates who have already climbed the greasy pole (even back to Gods of Glorantha), but yes, the Lunar Way is more capacious.

But I did note instability — because: White Moon cult (the Gully Foyles/Merry Pranksters of Lunar religion?) and presumably other Lunar splinter groups; upcoming Utuma via Shadow — and the chew and spit out nature of my comments.

[Nell]

17 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

A storm god, you know, like Yahweh. And I hope it is fair to say that like Yahweh, Orlanth is a god with a relationship with his people, and if you breathe the air, he will let you into his cult. So if you think of the Orlanthi as the Israelites of the Hebrew Bible, it might be productive. In this respect, the Orlanthi religion is “modern”. Watch out for windy prophets and wannabe messiahs — they are trouble.

Whereas the top gods of the Lunar Empire — the Moon & the Sun — are rather more distant from “their” people: the Emperor worships and maybe is the Sun but hoi polloi do not (think Akhenaten?); mystics in the religious elite are initiated to the Moon, not Waynetta Slob on the street and not even your average Lunar missionary. The Lunar/Solar religion is “old-school” in that an elite — including the ruler himself — stands between the people and the supreme godhead. But this situation is not stable.

This is an attempt at an alternative to the usual explanations: don’t swallow it, just chew it for the bitter flavour (and the psychoactive drugs) and then spit it out.

This seems like a bad comparison to me. Yahweh was a classical storm god, but comparatively little of Yahweh's career as a local storm god (especially in regards to being a member of a pantheon, Yahweh certainly was, and even had a wife, but compared to Odin, Zeus and a later example, this part of his divine life is a bit bare) remains and even in the educated mind his later myths hang over his old identity. Meanwhile, Indra fits the bill FAR better, being unusual already to western layman's ear, but having a far richer (and more accurate to Orlanth's own journeys and stories) tapestry of myth to pull from.

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Nell said:

This seems like a bad comparison to me. Yahweh was a classical storm god, but comparatively little of Yahweh's career as a local storm god … remains and even in the educated mind his later myths hang over his old identity.

Nothing of what follows is in the spirit of “I am right; you are wrong” — I am likely very, very wrong, but this is what I was trying to do and why …

The bit about Yahweh as storm god was just a lure to get the hook into the fish. I was not trying to hark back to a pre-monotheistic Yahweh. I was trying to pull focus from the god to the religion. It seems to me that there is more to religion than a god’s vital statistics and a list of their deeds. I know that when I was reading translations of the Greek myths as a child, I was left with no real idea of what it would be like to be a practitioner of the old Greek religion.

Although it is usual to pitch the Red Goddess as bringing the new thing and the Orlanthi as being dreadful stick-in-the-muds, I was trying to sell the idea of the situation’s being more complex than that: of there being a strand of “democracy” and directness in the Orlanthi religion & society (which IRL may have been new with mono-Yahwism) and of old-school elitism and mediation in the Lunar–Solar religion & state. That this would be reflected in the way the respective societies were organised and behaved. And after all — as @Eff likes to remind us — the Sartar rebels are the Taliban.

That whole “project” may have been misconceived — idiotic, even — but that was what I was attempting. Not “if you look at the nature and deeds of Orlanth, you will see they are more like Yahweh’s than they are like those of [insert Indo-European thunder god here].”

[Nell]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Nothing of what follows is in the spirit of “I am right; you are wrong” — I am likely very, very wrong, but this is what I was trying to do and why …

The bit about Yahweh as storm god was just a lure to get the hook into the fish. I was not trying to hark back to a pre-monotheistic Yahweh. I was trying to pull focus from the god to the religion. It seems to me that there is more to religion than a god’s vital statistics and a list of their deeds. I know that when I was reading translations of the Greek myths as a child, I was left with no real idea of what it would be like to be a practitioner of the old Greek religion.

Although it is usual to pitch the Red Goddess as bringing the new thing and the Orlanthi as being dreadful stick-in-the-muds, I was trying to sell the idea of the situation’s being more complex than that: of there being a strand of “democracy” and directness in the Orlanthi religion & society (which IRL may have been new with mono-Yahwism) and of old-school elitism and mediation in the Lunar–Solar religion & state. That this would be reflected in the way the respective societies were organised and behaved. And after all — as @Eff likes to remind us — the Sartar rebels are the Taliban.

That whole “project” may have been misconceived — idiotic, even — but that was what I was attempting. Not “if you look at the nature and deeds of Orlanth, you will see they are more like Yahweh’s than they are like those of [insert Indo-European thunder god here].”

Fair enough. 

[svensson]

9 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Oi! I didn’t mean to cause so much kerfuffle.

I was prompted by just having picked up a book on ancient political thought — which links political organisation and cult — and by recent emphasis by Jeff on the non-Chaotic nature of the Seven Mothers: communing with Our Lady of Chaos reserved for illuminates who have already climbed the greasy pole (even back to Gods of Glorantha), but yes, the Lunar Way is more capacious.

But I did note instability — because: White Moon cult (the Gully Foyles/Merry Pranksters of Lunar religion?) and presumably other Lunar splinter groups; upcoming Utuma via Shadow — and the chew and spit out nature of my comments.

Don't worry, MFB.

We're just digressing from the segue into the interruption of missing the point.

Again.

😁

[soltakss]

On 3/3/2023 at 8:16 PM, Starglyte said:

New to Runequest. My favorite genre is Sword and Sorcery followed by Dark/Gothic Fantasy. When it comes to fantasy cultures, I prefer ones based on Vikings, Celts, and Iron Age Germanic tribes. But since I also really love fantasy religions and myths, the announcement has given me the push to look into Runequest. I don't even know what books are in the pipeline, so this is all new to me. 

There are a lot of Alternate/Mythic Earth supplements that are similar enough that they can be fairly easily used with various D100 rulesets.

Have a look at http://www.soltakss.com/alternateearthrq/AESupplements.html for links to various supplements. I haven't updated it for a while, so it will be missing new ones.

[Jeff]

17 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Nothing of what follows is in the spirit of “I am right; you are wrong” — I am likely very, very wrong, but this is what I was trying to do and why …

The bit about Yahweh as storm god was just a lure to get the hook into the fish. I was not trying to hark back to a pre-monotheistic Yahweh. I was trying to pull focus from the god to the religion. It seems to me that there is more to religion than a god’s vital statistics and a list of their deeds. I know that when I was reading translations of the Greek myths as a child, I was left with no real idea of what it would be like to be a practitioner of the old Greek religion.

Although it is usual to pitch the Red Goddess as bringing the new thing and the Orlanthi as being dreadful stick-in-the-muds, I was trying to sell the idea of the situation’s being more complex than that: of there being a strand of “democracy” and directness in the Orlanthi religion & society (which IRL may have been new with mono-Yahwism) and of old-school elitism and mediation in the Lunar–Solar religion & state. That this would be reflected in the way the respective societies were organised and behaved. And after all — as @Eff likes to remind us — the Sartar rebels are the Taliban.

That whole “project” may have been misconceived — idiotic, even — but that was what I was attempting. Not “if you look at the nature and deeds of Orlanth, you will see they are more like Yahweh’s than they are like those of [insert Indo-European thunder god here].”

There's a lot in here - but first and foremost this is why I tend to ignore post written to "objectively" cheerlead one side or another. They tend to get things wrong - very wrong. Although one can certainly look at the tribes of Afghanistan to get some insight into Orlanthi - or Lunar - culture, neither side are the Taliban. The analogy breaks down the moment you look carefully. 

 

[scott-martin]

On 3/8/2023 at 5:58 PM, mfbrandi said:

I hope it is fair to say that like Yahweh, Orlanth is a god with a relationship with his people, and if you breathe the air, he will let you into his cult. So if you think of the Orlanthi as the Israelites of the Hebrew Bible, it might be productive. In this respect, the Orlanthi religion is “modern”. Watch out for windy prophets and wannabe messiahs — they are trouble.

Downright redemptive to say "MALKYN" here instead of this person you refer to as "Orlanth." Of course He was not a god but only the last of the line of storm gods, simultaneously fulfilling all old storm cult covenants and rendering them obsolete. 

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Jeff said:

post written to "objectively" cheerlead one side or another

For all its errors, I hope at least it wasn’t that.

[g33k]

22 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

...

Although it is usual to pitch the Red Goddess as bringing the new thing and the Orlanthi as being dreadful stick-in-the-muds, I was trying to sell the idea of the situation’s being more complex than that: of there being a strand of “democracy” and directness in the Orlanthi religion & society (which IRL may have been new with mono-Yahwism) and of old-school elitism and mediation in the Lunar–Solar religion & state. That this would be reflected in the way the respective societies were organised and behaved. And after all — as @Eff likes to remind us — the Sartar rebels are the Taliban...

I think there's an interesting insight, here.

For all her Hot Newness, and radical We Are All Us metaphysical democracy, you can't join Sedenya's cult except by working your way up within another of the Lunar cults... and then illuminating!!!  At least there's something of a meritocracy going on (for some values of "merit"), unlike the Dara Happan / Yelmic restriction to noble families (where bloodline (or marriage to it) is the only "merit" that matters) ... but it's almost like Sedenya is aping Yelm!

With Orlanth, though, "everybody" joins, it's not exclusive at all.  It's a much older religion, and there's certainly some "stick-in-the-muds" -- particularly in the backwaters -- but the kingdom of Sartar has been pretty darned cosmopolitan since the very founding.

(You really missed the ball with likening Orlanthi to the Taliban, though... sometimes the edgy/provocative stuff just doesn't work.  You have to REALLY cherry-pick the very worst of the Sartarite warbands, during the height of the Lunar occupation (and ignore the much-more-numerous and much-more-honorable ones) to get anything anywhere close to the Taliban.  And remember: when they regain a region, not even the most-reactionary Orlanthi will immediately force half the population into hijab and prevent their education & out-of-house occupations.)

[Soccercalle]

On 3/3/2023 at 9:16 PM, Starglyte said:

New to Runequest. My favorite genre is Sword and Sorcery followed by Dark/Gothic Fantasy. When it comes to fantasy cultures, I prefer ones based on Vikings, Celts, and Iron Age Germanic tribes. But since I also really love fantasy religions and myths, the announcement has given me the push to look into Runequest. I don't even know what books are in the pipeline, so this is all new to me. 

Runequest is quite different to Sword & Sorcery but very close to Vikings, Celts and Iron Age Germanic Tribes. The Orlanthi/heortling culture is in many ways based on the Indio-European culture that includes those cultures.

[John Biles]

46 minutes ago, g33k said:

I think there's an interesting insight, here.

For all her Hot Newness, and radical We Are All Us metaphysical democracy, you can't join Sedenya's cult except by working your way up within another of the Lunar cults... and then illuminating!!!  At least there's something of a meritocracy going on (for some values of "merit"), unlike the Dara Happan / Yelmic restriction to noble families (where bloodline (or marriage to it) is the only "merit" that matters) ... but it's almost like Sedenya is aping Yelm!

I think that's kind of stretching it.

Here's the thing.  Worshipping Sedenya directly isn't like your clan initiating you into Orlanth and you then spend your life herding cows and every so often either going on a raid or fighting one.

It's like becoming a Wind Lord.  Becoming a Larnste.  Or something else which the vast majority of people don't aspire to and which basically precludes the normal lifestyle.  Or even just becoming the head of a cult for a tribe.  

[g33k]

6 minutes ago, John Biles said:

I think that's kind of stretching it.

Here's the thing.  Worshipping Sedenya directly isn't like your clan initiating you into Orlanth and you then spend your life herding cows and every so often either going on a raid or fighting one.

It's like becoming a Wind Lord.  Becoming a Larnste.  Or something else which the vast majority of people don't aspire to and which basically precludes the normal lifestyle.  Or even just becoming the head of a cult for a tribe.  

I think you've hit it right on the nose:  "worshipping Sedenya directly isn't like your clan initiating you into Orlanth."

But here's the other thing.  Any Orlanthi who pursues an adventuring life might expect -- just as a matter of course -- to become a Wind Lord.  In the meantime, they're still a Good Orlanthi much like all the others.  After becoming a Wind Lord... they're still a Good Orlanthi, much like (though with more power, and likely more responsibilities) than all those others.  They began as Orlanthi, and stayed Orlanthi.

Sedenya doesn't welcome you until you're already among the elites... and one of those who's made their few-percent-per-sacred-time Illumination roll.

[John Biles]

54 minutes ago, g33k said:

But here's the other thing.  Any Orlanthi who pursues an adventuring life might expect -- just as a matter of course -- to become a Wind Lord.  In the meantime, they're still a Good Orlanthi much like all the others.  After becoming a Wind Lord... they're still a Good Orlanthi, much like (though with more power, and likely more responsibilities) than all those others.  They began as Orlanthi, and stayed Orlanthi.

Sedenya doesn't welcome you until you're already among the elites... and one of those who's made their few-percent-per-sacred-time Illumination roll.

Very few Orlanthi actually pursue the adventuring life as a permanent thing.  Very few become Wind Lords.  Becoming a Wind Lord is not even vaguely on par with being an ordinary Orlanthi.  You are part of the elite, the few, the Wind Lords.

A Lunar doesn't stop being a Lunar if they are let into Sedenya's personal cult.  Which is what you seem to be saying.

 

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

You really missed the ball with likening Orlanthi to the Taliban, though... sometimes the edgy/provocative stuff just doesn't work.

Ah, it was just a meta-joke. The original joke was Greg Stafford’s, but I must stress that he was *not* using it to make anything like any of my dubious points.

I am sorry my kinda off-the-cuff comment has caused so much fuss. If anyone is interested — and there is no reason why you should be — it was reading the Israel chapter of Antony Black’s A World History of Ancient Political Thought that set me thinking. (Others reading it may just end up thinking that I am crazier than they do already.)

Edited March 10, 2023 by mfbrandi

[mfbrandi]

22 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Downright redemptive to say "MALKYN" here instead of this person you refer to as "Orlanth." Of course He was not a god but only the last of the line of storm gods, simultaneously fulfilling all old storm cult covenants and rendering them obsolete. 

Sure, Malkion as Jesus, but the point was to play up the underplayed bits. Yes, you could say the Westerners are Christian analogues, but they also have colour-coded castes which is a clear reference to the Indo-Europeans in the Subcontinent (caste = varna = colour) … it is complicated, no?

In a very rare bit of sympathy for the Orlanthi I wondered whether the Orlanthi people had the relationship with their god (like the Jews, who sort of lost their priests along the way), rather than just their monarchs, illuminated elites, or Brahmins. I was wrong, but I did warn people not to swallow.