HEADS UP!!!! Here it is!!

[Jason Farrell]

7 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Which book is Humakt in?

The Lightbringer one.  Humakt is specificially mentioned in the teaser.

[metcalph]

30 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Which book is Humakt in?

Lightbringers. 

[Starcarr]

These look amazing. I like this approach of lots of books for the different groups of cults. This is more likely to attract newcomers too.

looking forward to the mythology book. 

Runequest is going to feel much more Runequesty with these!

What a beautiful collection this will be. 

[SDLeary]

8 hours ago, svensson said:

And Elmal is a Storm god, so he will likely be in the Storm Pantheon book.

Unless things have changed, I'm not sure that's true. Jeff has stated in the past that Elmal (at least differences between him and Yelmalio) would be listed in the Yelmalio write-up. I really really hope I'm wrong though... culture has to win out over Godlearnerism at some point.

SDLeary

[Richard S.]

41 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Unless things have changed, I'm not sure that's true. Jeff has stated in the past that Elmal (at least differences between him and Yelmalio) would be listed in the Yelmalio write-up. I really really hope I'm wrong though... culture has to win out over Godlearnerism at some point.

SDLeary

Antirius, Elmal, and Kargzant are variants of the Little Sun, Yelmalio - this is both evident and universally accepted in-universe, the same way West King Wind and Orlanth, or Lodril and Veskarthan, or Urox and Storm Bull are the same. Storm Tribe and S:KoH's take on Y/Elmal/io disagreed with what was presented in RQ2, 3, and King of Sartar, and has been discarded, obviously with Greg's blessing.

There's at least five different topics where this has all been discussed to death, but the decision has been made and whether it was right or not isn't something we should start arguing about again, at least here.

Yelmalio will be in the solar pantheon book unless there's been some massive shakeup, and Elmal will be right in there with himself.

Edited March 1, 2023 by Richard S.

[Wheel Shield]

On 2/28/2023 at 8:30 AM, jajagappa said:

I like the presentation of these as Player's Guides.  These aren't exclusive to the GM, and potentially the GM does not even need to pick up if the player has the one (or two) relevant to their characters.

That's a good observation. I had not thought of it that way.

[Wheel Shield]

10 hours ago, Richard S. said:

 

There's at least five different topics where this has all been discussed to death, but the decision has been made and whether it was right or not isn't something we should start arguing about again, at least here.

Yelmalio will be in the solar pantheon book unless there's been some massive shakeup, and Elmal will be right in there with himself.

Written in agreement:

The Yelmalio / Elmal topic is something I have chosen not to engage over the years. I've just skipped the threads for the most part. It's going to be great (for me at least) to open these books and read about these entities from a clear, definitive perspective. Just the straight dope, as the expression goes.

I'm not kidding. A clean fresh start is thrilling for me.

[radmonger]

Not having had access to the drafts that some people have had, I do await finding out how things work in practice. 

To pick a different example, the lightbringers cult book apparently will contain Waha. In Prax, he is, for most tribes, the dominant tribal cult. In Sartar, and likely elsewhere, he is the patron deity of the butchers guild.

Everyone acknowledges that Praxian Waha and Sartarite Waha are the same deity. They even have the same name; presumably it's a loan word in one or the other language. But the book series isn't called deities of glorantha, but cults of runequest.

How do you write up a single cult description that applies both to the ruling class of a praxian tribe and one low-status craft guild?

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Wheel Shield said:

Written in agreement:

The Yelmalio / Elmal topic is something I have chosen not to engage over the years. I've just skipped the threads for the most part. It's going to be great (for me at least) to open these books and read about these entities from a clear, definitive perspective. Just the straight dope, as the expression goes.

I'm not kidding. A clean fresh start is thrilling for me.

I completely agree.  A fresh clean start will be wonderful.

The reason for my original question is that two of our PCs, in a typical RQG Lightbringer group, are minor member of Yelmalio / Elmal.  In D&D terms, they "took a dip" to get the two good rune spells and some weapon skills. Yeah, we do some powergaming...

Too late to change for us, but wondering if that was o.k.  If Yelmalio is friendly, yes.  Otherwise, well, they got away with it and next time we will know better.

[Joerg]

50 minutes ago, radmonger said:

How do you write up a single cult description that applies both to the ruling class of a praxian tribe and one low-status craft guild?

"The Cult in the World" section needs to go to some detail for either occurrance.

The long Yelm Cult write-up for RQ3 tried to do that double stance for both Pentan horse nomads and Dara Happan urban nobility and didn't quite feel satisfactory for either. Transfer to e.g. Somash or the Pamaltelan new sun god Varama and his "not the same" predecessor Kendamalar would be tricky, and the weirdness of Ehilm's Flame in Yelm's Underworld court remains amusing. We're not going to find out before next year how this incarnation of the cult write-up will do that.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

43 minutes ago, g33k said:

although not in such powergame-y terms -- they want actual faithfulness, worship, earnest regard from their Initiates

True.  I have requested that the players work to get their Devotion skills up to 70% to show "faithfulness".

[Starcarr]

“Cults”

I like it. 
Back in the day “Cults” of Prax caused a bit of a (glorious) hoo-ha. 
Own it, I say. 
The word is  part of the Runequest heritage and there’s something about it that is so much more exciting and gutsy than “Religions of Runequest” or “Gods of Runequest”.

It gets my attention. 

[Darius West]

On 3/1/2023 at 12:19 AM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Aren't several of those going to be included in the Lightbringers? How many - notable/prevalent - Thunder Brothers are there that won't be one of the 19 in the Lightbringers? Obviously, I don't know what all those 19 will be beyond the core crew of the actual Lightbringer Quest, but I'm guessing they're going to squeeze in Storm gods closely associated with Orlanth, so maybe Storm Bull/Urox, and maybe even Vinga and uuhhh.... well, Hedkoranth and Helamakt might be pushing it in terms of notability/utility for players I guess.

There are so many Thunder Brothers, they require their own write-up in my estimation.  I seriously want to know what rune spells Finovan, Rigsdal, Barntar, Elmal and all the others get, and how they fit into Orlanthi societies.  They are more than just adjuncts to Orlanth imo.

[kr0p0s]

I wonder if, given the level of detail we will be getting, any extra regional flavour for say, Orlanth, will be given? Some ideas for how he is approached in Ralios by the henotheists or the Umathaelians in Pamalt, among others.

How do the degenerate Mraloti in Ramalia worship Zorak Zoran?

Lots of scope for widening the cults outside of Dragon Pass

[Jeff]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

There are so many Thunder Brothers, they require their own write-up in my estimation.  I seriously want to know what rune spells Finovan, Rigsdal, Barntar, Elmal and all the others get, and how they fit into Orlanthi societies.  They are more than just adjuncts to Orlanth imo.

They are the followers and tools of Orlanth. They are the Maruts who follow Indra, the howling winds and storms that follow Orlanth. The Thunder Brothers are always worshiped as a collective and as part of the Orlanth cult, usually led by Vinga (who is always worshiped as part of the Orlanth cult). They number anywhere between three and sixty, and provide the Rune spell of Summon Large Air Elemental. 

 

[Joerg]

Many of the Thunder Brothers in Thunder Rebels were basically faces for known rune spells of Orlanth, like e.g. Vanganth the Flyer or Hedkoranth the Thunderstone Slinger. They may be of local importance as ancestors or associated with local geographical features - essentially offering a shrine for a special spell otherwise available only at larger temples.

Direct initiation to these Thunder Brothers would be similar to joining a spirit cult, although I would apply the Orlanth rune pool rather than a Thunder Brothers rune pool.

[mfbrandi]

40 minutes ago, Jeff said:

They are the followers and tools of Orlanth.

  This reminded me of the discussion of Lodril in Sartar:

On 10/13/2022 at 5:05 PM, Jeff said:

Lodril … gets depicted as a fat red-faced drunken fool whose phallus drags on the ground

On 10/14/2022 at 10:09 PM, Nick Brooke said:

a picture of a diphallic Lodril shrine image in Citizens of the Lunar Empire.

Please, let no one heroquest for Orlanth’s tool belt.

[Darius West]

21 hours ago, Jeff said:

They are the followers and tools of Orlanth. They are the Maruts who follow Indra, the howling winds and storms that follow Orlanth. The Thunder Brothers are always worshiped as a collective and as part of the Orlanth cult, usually led by Vinga (who is always worshiped as part of the Orlanth cult). They number anywhere between three and sixty, and provide the Rune spell of Summon Large Air Elemental. 

I think I need to question this Jeff.  Many of the Thunder Brothers are named, and have their own subcults/hero cults and rune powers.  They include:

Hedkoranth, Helamakt, Elmal, Mastakos, Vinga, Finovan, Rigsdal, Destor, Vanganth, Vingkot, Yavor, Tatouth, Siwend, Starkval, and probably others too.  

These are named entities.  I agree that they are like Maruts, but they are also cults in their own rights, and it is likely that every Orlanthi clan can name at least one Thunder Brother as an ancestor, and know the secrets of their cult.   The Summon Large Elemental thing is a product of the WBRM board game, but there is more to these figures now.  They are listed in multiple publications.

[radmonger]

15 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I agree that they are like Maruts, but they are also cults in their own rights

A rune cult, by definition, must have rune priests or lords, and, unless using some special-case workaround, will have temples. A keen Orlanthi may well be able to name as many thunder brothers as a comics fan can superheroes. But there isn't the population, or level of economic development, in dragon pass to give every thunder brother their own full-time religious hierarchy.

Instead, there are clans who honor some particular ancestor, as the Haraborn of Six Seasons in Sartar do, getting their own unique rune magic in return. And there will be transient spirit cults, led by an individual shaman. These provide access to one or another this year, but as to next year, who can say.

Otherwise they are just a name and set of stories. Like some minor marvel superhero, they _could_ be turned into box office magic, and they very likely have fans who think that _should_ be done[1]. A single creative can drive the publication of a comic book so long as they retain interest in it. Some of the people who do this literally call themselves shamans[2].

But there are, even in the modern US, not enough directors, actors, movie theaters and audiences to make a movie for every named superhero.

[1] make Dredd 2

[2] https://etd.ohiolink.edu/apexprod/rws_etd/send_file/send?accession=bgsu1302288940&disposition=inline

 

 

[Eff]

3 minutes ago, radmonger said:

A rune cult, by definition, must have rune priests or lords, and, unless using some special-case workaround, will have temples. A keen Orlanthi may well be able to name as many thunder brothers as a comics fan can superheroes. But there isn't the population, or level of economic development, in dragon pass to give every thunder brother their own full-time religious hierarchy.

Instead, there are clans who honor some particular ancestor, as the Haraborn of Six Seasons in Sartar do, getting their own unique rune magic in return. And there will be transient spirit cults, led by an individual shaman. These provide access to one or another this year, but as to next year, who can say.

Otherwise they are just a name and set of stories. Like some minor marvel superhero, they _could_ be turned into box office magic, and they very likely have fans who think that _should_ be done[1]. A single creative can drive the publication of a comic book so long as they retain interest in it. Some of the people who do this literally call themselves shamans[2].

But there are, even in the modern US, not enough directors, actors, movie theaters and audiences to make a movie for every named superhero.

[1] make Dredd 2

[2] https://etd.ohiolink.edu/apexprod/rws_etd/send_file/send?accession=bgsu1302288940&disposition=inline

 

 

I don't see anything in the RQ2018 rules that indicates that a cult needs more than god-talkers or explicitly needs temples in order to exist. As far as population goes, you only need a few hundred people for cult ceremonies, in those few instances where that's been specified, and there are hundreds of thousands of people in Dragon Pass. It seems like population isn't a problem either. I dunno, it seems to me that it might be easier to use an out-of-universe answer. 

[Jeff]

30 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I think I need to question this Jeff.  Many of the Thunder Brothers are named, and have their own subcults/hero cults and rune powers.  They include:

Hedkoranth, Helamakt, Elmal, Mastakos, Vinga, Finovan, Rigsdal, Destor, Vanganth, Vingkot, Yavor, Tatouth, Siwend, Starkval, and probably others too.  

These are named entities.  I agree that they are like Maruts, but they are also cults in their own rights, and it is likely that every Orlanthi clan can name at least one Thunder Brother as an ancestor, and know the secrets of their cult.   The Summon Large Elemental thing is a product of the WBRM board game, but there is more to these figures now.  They are listed in multiple publications.

So who are the Thunder Brothers, if we ask the Orlanthi? They are the Airy offspring and brethren of Orlanth, who can split the clouds so that rain can fall, shake mountains and destroy forests. They are collective of some three to sixty - once we focus on any specific Thunder Brother (except their leader, Vinga), we aren't talking about the Thunder Brothers any more.

Scribes and poets love to make lists, but for the most part this is irrelevant. Usually you get a lot of local names that just mean things associated with Orlanth - eg., Donner and Blitzen - plus some local manifestations of Orlanth or named Umbroli. Sometimes Storm Bull, Kolat, Valind, Ygg, and even Gagarth get named. But it's understood you aren't talking about them individually (except maybe Vinga). Now Vinga is a very popular subcult of Orlanth, and Vingkot has the occasional cult. Lightning Spear is one of the Four Weapons and gets cult, but the rest are just names like Prancer, Vixen, Comet, and Cupid - we talk about Rudolph or about Santa's Reindeer collectively. But when we speak of the Thunder Brothers we always are speaking of them as a collective, with maybe Vinga as the leader.

Some entities definitely aren't Thunder Brothers. Elmal is definitely not a Thunder Brother in any imagining! Same with Polestar. Nor Mastakos - he's the charioteer of Orlanth, and not part of that group (he's not a warrior or an Air God). I'm pretty sure Humakt is never listed as one either.

Those figures were listed in the HW material, we reduced them in the HQ supplements, and then decided to get rid of them almost entirely in RQ. Hedkoranth makes an appearance in the Prosopaedia and the Sartar Book as a local incarnation of Orlanth Thunderous worshiped at Roundstone Fort, as does Rigsdal (as the personal guardian of Kallyr Starbrow).

[SDLeary]

Can anyone point me to an active archive with the old Glorantha Digest? I was searching last night, and found an index, but when I clicked on the link, it was broken. It was a link to a post from @Joerg from 1994 discussing Elmal.

More importantly, I’d like to add the Digest “issues” to my local archive of the old various RQ-Digest runs.

SDLeary

Edited March 3, 2023 by SDLeary
Damn phone keyboard! 😂

[radmonger]

12 minutes ago, Eff said:

As far as population goes, you only need a few hundred people for cult ceremonies, in those few instances where that's been specified, and there are hundreds of thousands of people in Dragon Pass. It seems like population isn't a problem either.

A few hundred people meeting regularly in one location is a clan, not a cult. Even with Sartar's roads, you are not going to be pulling from anything like the full national population, only a single city[1].

Boldhome has a (perhaps implausibly high) population of 25,000. Once you split that between the cults in the ten books, it's hard to find room for another 60. In fact, some of the ones included are going to have a job to do of plausibly justifying themselves.

Of course, it is always GM's privilege to add that one cult you need for a scenario, or for that one player who has a fixed concept for a character[2]. But Chaosium would find it hard to interview your players and create them each their own personalised cult. 

 

[1] travelling merchants, soldiers,  and wilderness hunters and a few others will kind of be an exception here.

[2] i kind of suspect this happened with Lanbril, back when ninjas were cool.

 

[Jeff]

1 minute ago, radmonger said:

A few hundred people meeting regularly in one location is a clan, not a cult. Even with Sartar's roads, you are not going to be pulling from anything like the full national population, only a single city[1].

Boldhome has a (perhaps implausibly high) population of 25,000. Once you split that between the cults in the ten books, it's hard to find room for another 60. In fact, some of the ones included are going to have a job to do of plausibly justifying themselves.

Of course, it is always GM's privilege to add that one cult you need for a scenario, or for that one player who has a fixed concept for a character[2]. But Chaosium would find it hard to interview your players and create them each their own personalised cult. 

 

[1] travelling merchants, soldiers,  and wilderness hunters and a few others will kind of be an exception here.

[2] i kind of suspect this happened with Lanbril, back when ninjas were cool.

 

Boldhome has around 10,000 people.

[Bill the barbarian]

11 minutes ago, SDLeary said:

Can anyone point me to an active archive with the old Glorantha Digest? I was searching last night, and found an index, but when I clicked on the link, it was broken. It was a link to a post from @Joerg from 1994 discussing Elmal.

More importantly, I’d like to add the Digest “issues” to my local archive of the old various RQ-Digest runs.

SDLeary

https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/

https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/BellDigest/

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by Bill the barbarian