Why does Argrath wipe out the Telmori?

[Joerg]

Hon-eel genocided the Pelorian Telmori by turning them into (normal) wolves full-time. I doubt that Argrath's genocide had the same success rate.

[Akhôrahil]

On 3/13/2023 at 9:15 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Our RQG campaign is approaching (actually, slightly past  canon) the time for this very troubling event.  (1627 ish) My question as current GM for this is simple: Why?

I understand why the neighboring tribes would want to get back for years of harm.  But why does Argrath?  I'm aware of one darker theory, to wipe out other possible heirs of Sartar.  Anything else?

Easier to genocide them than not to for him, and plus he gets cool magical wolfskins from them as part of it (for a modern reader, it's certainly something that he uses the skins of his genocided victims). It's not like he has much in the way of moral qualms about anything ever.

If you read Red Cow, you will see how Argrath has a power-base among the Telmori-hating Cinsina. I assume they were the ones pushing for a response, and were probably stunned by the ruthless efficiency of the genocide (after all, it's been a mostly slow-burn problem for centuries, and suddenly... all gone).

Edited March 14, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

On 3/13/2023 at 11:57 PM, g33k said:

• narratively, it's one of the signifiers that Argrath is not a Hero (except in the strictly game-mechanical sense of "hero"):  it shows that Argrath is a Destroyer

My personal reading of King of Sartar is how it describes and implictly compares two kings - Sartar and Argrath - with Sartar consistently coming out on top as far as morality goes. Sartar made peace with the Telmori - Argrath does not. It doesn't seem he even tried.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Darius West]

15 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

I have no idea what that means.

The Telmori are a Sartar unit in the Boardgame.

[Darius West]

16 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Royal Guard ends in 1624 when Goram Whitefang dies striving to defend his kinsman Temertain against the Humakti assassins, and the Telmori blood connection to the House of Sartar is severed. The Telmori Royal Guard completely disbands, abandoning their homes in Boldhome, and returns to the Wolf Ridges.

This doesn't preclude some sort of reforming of the Royal Guard at a later date.  In any case, the Telmori definitely fight for Sartar during the Hero Wars.  Whether or not the Royal Guard reform would be up to the individual GM, and what sort of Argrath he wants in his world.  

4 hours ago, Eff said:

Argrath believes that as Arkat reborn it is his duty to finish the job Arkat started through violence against the werewolves. 

Argrath seems more pragmatic than that to me.  He won't seek to destroy allies for such a spurious ideological reason imo, especially not a unit that is at its strongest when his enemies are at their strongest, i.e. during the full moon.  There needs to be a stronger reason.  The Telmori chaos taint may cause Stormbulls to arc up, but that is solved by keeping them away from the Praxians.  

4 hours ago, Eff said:

-The Telmori stand in the way of Argrath clear-cutting their forested lands to fuel a heavily expanded weapons industry, and Argrath can sidestep the power of the oaths and obligations between the werewolves and the principality through mass murder. 

There are plenty of other forests Argrath can be drawing upon that are less contested, especially as he makes gains in the west of Dragon Pass.

 

No, I still Argrath will only be attacking the Telmori if there is some sort of treachery on their part.  Other scenarios have lots of work-arounds, and the image of Argarath as a bloody handed butcher is Lunar propaganda for the most part.  This is not to say that Jaldon and Harrek aren't bloody handed butchers, but then let's not forget that Jar-Eel also had thousands of Beat-Pot's slave uprising slaughtered without recourse too.

Edited March 15, 2023 by Darius West

[Joerg]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

The Telmori are a Sartar unit in the Boardgame.

The Wolf Runners might be wolf-slayers wearing cursed werewolf hides rather than original Telmori - at least that's what King of Sartar seems to imply. No idea how much that is a "retcon" from the description in the board game.

[Nick Brooke]

Telmori, like dogs, have a really good sense of smell. They’ve had a long association with the House of Sartar, have even intermarried with it, and can probably recognise a true heir to the line of Sartar by scent alone.

Sorry, that was a bit off-topic, I can’t think of any reason why Argrath would want to murder them all.

[Nick Brooke]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

The Telmori are a Sartar unit in the Boardgame.

No they aren’t.

[Darius West]

9 minutes ago, Nick Brooke said:

No they aren’t.

Is that unit the wolf runners?  It has been years...

[M Helsdon]

7 hours ago, Darius West said:

The Telmori are a Sartar unit in the Boardgame.

Perhaps you are confusing the Wolf Runners unit with the Telmori?

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

This doesn't preclude some sort of reforming of the Royal Guard at a later date.  In any case, the Telmori definitely fight for Sartar during the Hero Wars.  Whether or not the Royal Guard reform would be up to the individual GM, and what sort of Argrath he wants in his world.  

We are told they are not 'reformed', and as the Wolf Runners are wearing Telmori skins, that is very improbable.

They fought for Sartar before 1624, but not afterwards.

[Joerg]

15 minutes ago, M Helsdon said:

They fought for Sartar before 1624, but not afterwards.

They supported Kallyr, and presumably fought (and died) by her side, maybe not at Dangerford but surely at the Battle of Queens.

[M Helsdon]

7 minutes ago, Joerg said:

They supported Kallyr, and presumably fought (and died) by her side, maybe not at Dangerford but surely at the Battle of Queens.

The Temori Royal Guard was disbanded in 1624 - see The Coming Storm/Eleven Lights.

Other Telmori may have aided Kallyr, but the guard were gone.

Edited March 15, 2023 by M Helsdon

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

Perhaps you are confusing the Wolf Runners unit with the Telmori?

The Wolfrunners in the Dragon Pass / White Bear Red Moon board game, are part of the Sartar Free Army:

Given that they have a cyclic Combat Factor, and the following from the Stafford House Campaign (page 6):

Quote

A couple of tribes (including the were-wolf worshipping Telmori, or Wolf Runners) owed allegiance only to the royal house, and not to any confederation.

I'd say Wolf Runners = Telmori.

Reading this article, it become clear what some of the tensions are, and what the consequences were.

 

 

[Nick Brooke]

Read King of Sartar p.19, David:

Quote

The fight against the wolfmen was arduous, and many good men died. But in the end Argrath was victorious. Afterwards, the tribe of the Wolf People was dispersed, and only bands of them were found anyplace, and then were hunted down. The human victors of Argrath’s battles against the wolfmen were called the Wolfskins, for they wore the pelts of their victims, and they were a very highly honored band of warriors wherever they were recognized.

It's natural to assume that the Wolfrunners in Argrath's Free Army are Telmori, until you read about what Argrath did to the Telmori wolfmen, and how his murderous followers wore the skins of the werewolf folk afterwards. YGWV, of course, and if you want to whitewash Argrath this would be a great place to start!

[M Helsdon]

42 minutes ago, David Scott said:

Given that they have a cyclic Combat Factor, and the following from the Stafford House Campaign (page 6):

I'd say Wolf Runners = Telmori.

From old material I have seen, that's because they wear the pelts of the defeated Telmori and gain magical powers every Wildday when the Red Moon is full.

Reading old material there is ambiguity, and before the campaigns to destroy the Telmori, the Wolf Runners may have been Telmori (in the Guide Telmori are referred to as Wolfrunners) but afterwards were people wearing Telmori skins.

One very old document Jeff shared with me several years ago is a draft of Greg's own Armies & Enemies, based on the RMWB board game. It's now long overtaken (for example the Yelmalions' Rune is an upwards arrow denoting Progress) but the Wolf Runners are described as fighting beside dogs and wearing wolf skins (though another list says they fought beside wolves). It reads as though their nature was in transition at the time, from Telmori to those who fought them.

Edited March 15, 2023 by M Helsdon

[Soccercalle]

5 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Telmori, like dogs, have a really good sense of smell. They’ve had a long association with the House of Sartar, have even intermarried with it, and can probably recognise a true heir to the line of Sartar by scent alone.

Sorry, that was a bit off-topic, I can’t think of any reason why Argrath would want to murder them all.

You really hate that maddafacka 😉

[kr0p0s]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

Read King of Sartar p.19, David:

It's natural to assume that the Wolfrunners in Argrath's Free Army are Telmori, until you read about what Argrath did to the Telmori wolfmen, and how his murderous followers wore the skins of the werewolf folk afterwards. YGWV, of course, and if you want to whitewash Argrath this would be a great place to start!

From the Jeff article linked above:

"How much trouble are Telmori in when there are Storm Bulls around? I imagine they try to avoid each other whenever possible. But in close proximity, it is not good. For either group.

Pre-1627, They outnumber the Stormbull worshipers . Post-1627 they are outnumbered by the Stormbull worshipers. Wonder what happened that year."

In Sartar, there are more Telmori than there are Storm Bull cultists in all of Sartar. HOWEVER, Argrath is the head of a Storm Bull magical society and is supported by the more than 10,000 Storm Bull cultists of Prax. So he may change that calculation somewhat."

 

That pretty much spells it out. The Telmori tribe rebel, Argraths Storm Bull supporters say enough, Argrath is close to them and hates betrayal.  The Telmori are crushed and scattered.

[Eff]

This thread takes as a premise that Argrath did in fact wipe out the Telmori in 1627, so arguing that he didn't, the Wolfrunner chit is just the Telmori, or it didn't happen at all, doesn't seem to help Mr. @Rodney Dangerduck with his inquiries. 

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, Eff said:

This thread takes as a premise that Argrath did in fact wipe out the Telmori in 1627, so arguing that he didn't, the Wolfrunner chit is just the Telmori, or it didn't happen at all, doesn't seem to help Mr. @Rodney Dangerduck with his inquiries. 

It is a known fact that there was a massacre against the Telmori in 1627. Argrath Saga (not the most reliable source) states that Argrath's men took werewolf skins and inherited their powers. For a military unit you need about 1000 people on foot, with that equipment.

Catching all the Telmori is pretty much impossible for a military expedition. Jomes Wulf was considered very successful, and his action left 6500 Telmori behind.

If followers of Argrath skinned about 1000 werewolves and took to wearing their pelts, and running around with dog or wolf companions afterwards, I wonder who they would have been before. One possibility would be Wolf Pirates - after all, their sea sorcerers knew a ritual to use wolf skins to house the ship's spirit on the bow-sprites of their ships. The "wolf" comes with their name...

I don't really see any of the Orlanthi neighbors of the Telmori tribe adopt their skins or their beast companions (or Praxian or Balazaring dogs). Too many cat nazis there.

Anyway, even if 1627 caused the demise of half the Telmori population, that means that there still are a few thousand wolf hsunchen hiding in the wilds of East Sartar, hunting or raiding the herds of their neighbors after their regular prey has been displaced.

We don't know whether Argrath ordered that slaughter, but we know that he did not prevent it from happening. That doesn't mean that he would not hire Telmori afterwards for his wars, which saw high attrition.

[David Scott]

4 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Read King of Sartar p.19, David:

It's natural to assume that the Wolfrunners in Argrath's Free Army are Telmori, until you read about what Argrath did to the Telmori wolfmen, and how his murderous followers wore the skins of the werewolf folk afterwards. YGWV, of course, and if you want to whitewash Argrath this would be a great place to start!

Yes, that's what I wrote above, but I think this unit is the Telmori before this event. They are wiped out before the Battle of Heroes. 

[Akhôrahil]

On 3/15/2023 at 5:38 PM, Joerg said:

If followers of Argrath skinned about 1000 werewolves and took to wearing their pelts, and running around with dog or wolf companions afterwards, I wonder who they would have been before

I thought it was very strongly suggested the Wolfskinners tribal warband of the Cinsina (led by queen Ivarthe) were upgraded (and expanded) with, you know, magical skinned wolf pelts by Argrath? (Perhaps alongside others on teh winning side, but the Wolfskinners seem like they have been a core part of it at least.)

On 3/15/2023 at 5:38 PM, Joerg said:

We don't know whether Argrath ordered that slaughter, but we know that he did not prevent it from happening. That doesn't mean that he would not hire Telmori afterwards for his wars, which saw high attrition.

My personal guess would be that the Cinsina pushed for it and Argrath agreed to handle it out of a debt of gratitude.

Quoting t11L: 

"The second is that Argrath repays Cinsina help in returning
aurochs to Dragon Pass by driving the Telmori from the Wolf
Hills. The human victors of Argrath’s battles against the wolfmen
become known as the Wolfskins, for they wear the pelts of their
victims, and become a very highly honored band of warriors
wherever they are recognized."

So the sequence could be:

1. Ongoing fighting with the Telmori (as described in t11L).
2. Cinsina help Argrath with both The Eleven Lights band and support for his Aurochs quests.
3. Cinsina call on Argrath to help them sort the Telmori problem.
4. Argrath does a final solution of the Telmori problem.
5. Argrath creates a magical warband out of the (substantially Cinsina) victors, using skinned wolf pelts.

Edited March 19 by Akhôrahil

[Eff]

On a side note to one of my earlier suggestions, Argrath doesn't seem to have many, if any morokanth in his Barbarian Horde. It's entirely plausible he's just prejudiced against non-humans!

[Nick Brooke]

Or they're too smart to sign up for his absurd crusade?

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, Eff said:

On a side note to one of my earlier suggestions, Argrath doesn't seem to have many, if any morokanth in his Barbarian Horde. It's entirely plausible he's just prejudiced against non-humans!

Except for Dragonewts?

Although I would think Argrath will use (and very likely later discard) any tool he can find.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

@David Scott  Thanks for the link to Jeff's article on Well of Daliath.

While I realize that real life people must sometimes be pragmatic, and are flawed, IMO Jeff takes it too far.  Or, alternatively, some of the rules text, e.g. that Storm Bull Initiates are required to investigate any hints or rumors of Chaos personally, or that Orlanthi Wind Lords must fight it to kill it if possible, should be modified / toned down.  IMO, that would actually be a good thing.

e.g. I'd like to see more positive, aspirational material on achieving the Orlanth virtues.  Less bad poetry, and less strict "Thou shall" rules that are very often ignored.