Why does Argrath wipe out the Telmori?

[Bren]

6 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

If we were to look at the RQ2 Divination spell description …

I only see a three word difference between the RQ2 and the RQG spell descriptions. What are you seeing that I am not?

[Runeblogger]

This is becoming an interesting thread and I'm getting ideas for a possible scenario.

But I have to ask: when a Telmori and another human have a child, is the child always a cursed Telmori?

Only when the mother is a Telmori?

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Bren said:

I only see a three word difference between the RQ2 and the RQG spell descriptions. What are you seeing that I am not?

Sorry for any confusion. I didn’t mean to contrast it with the RQG description (which I don’t have to hand). The point was that the players get a short statement, while the characters may get a vision or something requiring interpretation (and certainly capable of misinterpretation). It is not that the character shoots the breeze about attitudes to life with their deity who — terse bugger — speaks to the caster the meagre seven (or ten) words that the GM gives the player. At least, that is how I read “there is always the … chance … that the character will read the signs wrong” — that is not normally how we would describe mishearing (or even, strangely enough, misreading) a short sentence, is it? But I have been wrong before and will be again.

What surprised me rereading the spell description after a long time is that it doesn’t say what you get for your money: you don’t get information about the future; if the roll fails, the answer is misleading; but if the roll succeeds, then what? What relation to the truth of the matter or the god’s belief about the matter (which may of course be false) does the god’s answer bear? The spell description doesn’t say. My guess is that the idea was that the spell was a way for players to get facts out of the GM.

[Bren]

I suspect getting facts is one of the common usages. Divination is not a spell I've seen used much. The only usage by a PC that I can recall, the GM provided a vision. This avoided the word limit and allowed for vagueness in the answer. The PC priestess consulted Ernalda and received a vision related to things on (touching) or under the Earth and saw a location in Nochet. For NPCs, we were trying to find out what happened to a missing NPC. The clan Ernalda priestess were able to tell us that the person was not in the ground, i.e., not buried.

If the answer was a short statement and a failed POWx5 roll, I'd try to provided something cryptic, like the oracle at Delphi.

Personally, if as a GM I'm interested in including Divination in play, I'd be inclined to do Divination as oneiromancy, prophetic divination from dreams. The caster would need to sleep in a site holy to the deity providing the Divination Rune spell. They'd need to successfully cast the Rune spell, failure would probably mean no meaningful dreams that night. Then I'd make the POWx5 roll with a failed roll providing a misleading or bizarre dream. For a successful dream I'd try providing something appropriately dream like, but requiring some additional interpretation by the players to understand it.

If I'm not interested in playing out Divination, I'd probably go with simple factual statements (true or false based on the POWx5 roll) and skip the color.

[Bren]

6 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

But I have to ask: when a Telmori and another human have a child, is the child always a cursed Telmori?

What does Argrath do on a full moon?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

16 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Is pursuit of power — enough power to stand a chance of killing a Devil able to gobble up most of the gods in short order — usually all-that rational?

A bit OT, but, by coincidence (?), this Orwell quote came up on one of my social media feeds today 

"Power is not a means; it is an end. ... The object of power is power."

[Jeff]

11 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

This is becoming an interesting thread and I'm getting ideas for a possible scenario.

But I have to ask: when a Telmori and another human have a child, is the child always a cursed Telmori?

Only when the mother is a Telmori?

Everyone born of Telmori parents is considered to be a wolf and automatically part of the religion. Among most Telmori tribes, marriage with an outsider is considered bestiality and is forbidden on pain of death; however, the Telmori of Sartar are permitted to marry those descended from Sartar. Those not born into the tribes must be adopted before they can join the cult. 

It is the initiation that curses the Telmori, not the birthright. Since the time of Nysalor, human initiates of Telmor are werewolves tainted by Chaos to involuntarily take wolf form each Wildday. They receive the Chaos Rune at 20% but have no other Chaotic features.

[Runeblogger]

Thank you!
So uninitiated Telmori children do not turn into wolves on Wilddays. 

[Qizilbashwoman]

20 minutes ago, Runeblogger said:

Thank you!
So uninitiated Telmori children do not turn into wolves on Wilddays. 

growing up as a young telmori must be confusing as heck

[Eff]

Wonder if there've been any stolen generations of Telmori children. 

[Darius West]

14 hours ago, Eff said:

Wonder if there've been any stolen generations of Telmori children. 

The question of whether non-Telmori may sometimes discover werewolves in their midst via their crimes in the classic werewolf scenario needs to be asked too.  Is there an inherited component to the curse?  Can it be spread thru wounds?  The answer seems to be no, but is that in keeping with MGF?

Edited March 18, 2023 by Darius West

[Yinkin]

On 3/17/2023 at 10:16 AM, Jeff said:

Everyone born of Telmori parents is considered to be a wolf and automatically part of the religion. Among most Telmori tribes, marriage with an outsider is considered bestiality and is forbidden on pain of death; however, the Telmori of Sartar are permitted to marry those descended from Sartar. Those not born into the tribes must be adopted before they can join the cult. 

It is the initiation that curses the Telmori, not the birthright. Since the time of Nysalor, human initiates of Telmor are werewolves tainted by Chaos to involuntarily take wolf form each Wildday. They receive the Chaos Rune at 20% but have no other Chaotic features.

I love this and it makes so much gloranthan sense to me. I have just one question: Does this mean that a telmori Humakti (for example) is NOT therefore a wolf brother and does not change on Wild days, as they are not initiated into Telmor? Or is it simply that their adulthood intitiation as telmori that is the one that carries the curse, not the "cult" initiation so to speak?

[Runeblogger]

49 minutes ago, Yinkin said:Does this mean that a telmori Humakti (for example) is NOT therefore a wolf brother and does not change on Wild days, as they are not initiated into Telmor? Or is it simply that their adulthood intitiation as telmori that is the one that carries the curse, not the "cult" initiation so to speak?

As I understand it, a Telmori humakti is an initiate of both Telmor and Humakt, and only her initiation into Telmor (which comes first) is what carries the curse. If you are not initiated into the cult of Telmor, you are not a Telmori.

[radmonger]

6 hours ago, Runeblogger said:

a Telmori humakti is an initiate of both Telmor and Humakt

To quote RQ;G: an initiate may partake only of rituals in their own cult, or its associated and friendly cults. Humakt, of course, has no associated or friendly cults.

The bestiary entry on wolf brothers says anyone born to Telmori parents is automatically initiated. So the documented existence of Terlmori Humakti would appear to be in contradiction with one or the other.

I would resolve this by having the Telmori work like how i understand other rural clans to work, where you go through the adulthood initiation ordeal, and that reveals who your patron god is. Normally this will be one of the gods maintained by a shrine at the clan temple. Humakt is, following Sartar's reforms, such a god. This provides a non-chaotic initiation route, mythically severing the relationship with chaos while still remaining physically a part of the community.

This works in reverse, in that a foundling of Telmori parentage brought up in an orlanthi clan will likely at least get the option of following Telmor. Many clans would count that as failing the ordeal, and exiling or just outright killing the unfortunate kid, as they would an ogre.

Note that I don't think Telmori, as a clan, worship Ernalda, or any other earthmother goddess, so they only have one clan temple, to Telmor.

Telmori-clan Humakti perform a similar role that Orlanth-clan Humakti do; they guard, rather than partake in, the clan ceremonies. They quite likely require a formal payment for doing so.

Sartar was smart enough to realise that only a cult of dedicated badasses with magical weapon magic could thrive in Telmori society. Pairing that with selecting the most experienced and skilled Telmor-cultists to leave the clan and form your own personal bodyguard went a long way towards making the Telmori a tribe like any other. You raid them, they raid you back, life goes on.

Argrath, of course, breaks this balance, as he breaks everything he touches. The Telmori as a tribe, prompted by the lunbars, turn fully to chaos. some of the Telmori humakti turn against them, fully ritually severing their relationship with their wolf-brothers. They wear their skin as a cloak, and become a board game counter.

This all greatly increases the level of chaos magic going on, ultimately leading to Argrath's creation/summoning of the Monster Empire.

 

 

Edited March 18, 2023 by radmonger

[hipsterinspace]

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

To quote RQ;G: an initiate may partake only of rituals in their own cult, or its associated and friendly cults. Humakt, of course, has no associated or friendly cults.

The bestiary entry on wolf brothers says anyone born to Telmori parents is automatically initiated. So the documented existence of Terlmori Humakti would appear to be in contradiction with one or the other.

As you say, they can only partake in the rituals of their own cult, or its associated and friendly cults. By initiating into Humakt, Humakt becomes their cult as well. This just means they couldn’t participate in Telmor’s rituals as only a Humakti, or Humakt’s rituals as only a Telmori. Initiation into both gives them full access to both, they are fully Humakti and Telmori at the same time.

They are able to join the cult of Humakt as an initiate of Telmor, just as they are able to join the cults of Issaries, Chalana Arroy, and Seven Mothers. Because all of those cults are only neutral towards Telmor, that requires the initiand to secure permission from both of the cults, but that doesn’t mean that they can’t be initiated as a Telmori.

Edited March 18, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[Bren]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

To quote RQ;G: an initiate may partake only of rituals in their own cult, or its associated and friendly cults. Humakt, of course, has no associated or friendly cults.

The Cult Compatibility chart in RQiG lists Humkat as being friendly to both Orlanth and Yinkin.

(Argan Argar and Issaries are friendly to Humakt, but Humakt does not return the feeling.)

[radmonger]

5 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

They can, however, join the cult of Humakt as an initiate of Telmor, just as they can join Issaries, Chalana Arroy, and Seven Mothers. The cults are neutral which just means they need to secure permission from both cults to join, not that they can’t be initiated as a Telmori.

And that would normally mean leaving the Telmor cult, as they can no longer participate in Telmori worship ceremonies, regain wolfbrother magic, and so on. At best you leave on friendly terms and don't get formally exiled, or suffer from the spirit of reprisal. 

The only way round this is if the Telmori Humakti are actually worshipping a local variant, who is actually friendly to Telmor, and so would routinely grant permission for joint worship.  But personally I prefer the interpreation where Humakt is true to his nature.

[Eff]

The Telmori entry in the Bestiary assumes that all Telmori participate in the involuntary shapeshifting, in addition to the two little lines in the Telmor cult:

"Initiate
Requirements: Everyone born of Telmori parents is
automatically an initiate. Those not born into the tribe must
be adopted before they can join the cult."

Now there's an immediate question here about people marrying into the tribe and whether their children count as "of Telmori parents" or not, and whether they in turn become involuntary shapeshifters and get a wolf companion- indeed, it is questionable from the text if there are any Telmori women at all, since the Telmori and their wolf companions fight "as brothers", not as siblings.

EDIT: By "assumes", I mean that statements like "The Telmori have a simple and primitive physical culture. Since they weekly shed their hands and abandon their tools, they dare not make them too valuable." are somewhat difficult to square with a quarter to a third of Telmori not shapeshifting and presumably being able to pick up and put away dropped tools and possessions while their shapeshifted friends and family try to look sheepish in wolf form.

Edited March 18, 2023 by Eff

[hipsterinspace]

53 minutes ago, radmonger said:

And that would normally mean leaving the Telmor cult, as they can no longer participate in Telmori worship ceremonies, regain wolfbrother magic, and so on. At best you leave on friendly terms and don't get formally exiled, or suffer from the spirit of reprisal.

This is not at all the case. Sora Goodseller, for example, is a cultist of both Issaries and Yelmalio. They are not associates or even mutually friendly cults, but she is a priestess of Issaries and still participates in Yelmalio’s rites (as a Yelmalio initiate, Issaries doesn’t factor). Initiates of one cult can initiate into a neutral second cult with the permission of their temple hierarchy, it’s in the rulebook. Apostasy is only necessary when trying to initiate into hostile or enemy cults (like Orlanth and Seven Mothers).

53 minutes ago, radmonger said:

The only way round this is if the Telmori Humakti are actually worshipping a local variant, who is actually friendly to Telmor, and so would routinely grant permission for joint worship.  But personally I prefer the interpreation where Humakt is true to his nature.

They don’t worship jointly, why would they need to?

Edited March 18, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

To quote RQ;G: an initiate may partake only of rituals in their own cult, or its associated and friendly cults. Humakt, of course, has no associated or friendly cults.

That's different from the question of whether you can *join* two cults that are not friends or associates of each other.  And the answer to that is yes.  RQ:G says p275 that the test for "Membership in Multiple Cults" is that they be "compatible", not that they be friendly or associates.  Since even street thugs in New Pavis know that Broos can worship Humakt, a Telmori worshipping him is not a problem. 

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

The bestiary entry on wolf brothers says anyone born to Telmori parents is automatically initiated.

But when is the key question.  Are they initiates as the result of a 100% pass rate at the standard coming of age ceremonies or are they intiates from birth?  Jeff's answer (and the example of several members of the Sartar Royal House suggests the former).

 

 

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, hipsterinspace said:

Sora Goodseller, for example, is a cultist of both Issaries and Yelmalio.

i would count that as an individual exception. Neutral means dual membership is permitted under exceptional circumstances; if that permission becomes routine, it is hard to argue that the relationship remains neutral.

The telmori cult breakdown on well of daliath has

• 01-63 Telmor
• 64-74 Seven Mothers
• 75-85 Humakt (about 500)
• 86-88 Issaries
• 89-90 CA
• 91-00 Other

That is far too many Humakti to all be individual exceptions, or to have no path of advancement to Rune Level.

In fact, as i understand it, the reasons the numbers add up to 100, is because all of those are, as a matter of routine, exclusive options at the initiate level. The rare exceptions are rare enough to not trouble the statistics. Unlike city-dwellers, rural Telmori simply don't have a variety of temples they can choose to visit several of in parallel. The second nearest temple to where they live may well be a full days travel away. And they are very likely not going to be welcome if they did show up.

Also, being a travelling Issaries trader wouldn't be realistically possible if they involuntarily transformed.

15 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Since even street thugs in New Pavis know that Broos can worship Humakt, a Telmori worshipping him is not a problem. 

 

That is an entirely different question to whether a broo can become initiated to both Humakt and Thed. The humakti broo in dorastor:land of doom (p82) are explicitly not. They _are_ illuminated though, without which i suspect shier chaotic nature would prevent them from maintain their geases. This is why they are considered a novel and dangerous threat.

The seven mothers Telmori maybe have something similar going on?

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/sartar-telmori/

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

36 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Also, being a travelling Issaries trader wouldn't be realistically possible if they involuntarily transformed.

That would be a wonderful PC concept!

[hipsterinspace]

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

i would count that as an individual exception. Neutral means dual membership is permitted under exceptional circumstances; if that permission becomes routine, it is hard to argue that the relationship remains neutral.

Dual initiation is unusual, but most people have no need for a second cult. As far as I'm aware, if it is permitted by cult compatibility and the cult hierarchy, all that someone would need to do to initiate into a second cult is to convince the examiners of their worthiness. As the Telmori provide bodyguards to the Prince of Sartar, would it not be in the Telmori's interest to be the most effective bodyguards possible? Would it not be in the Humakt cult's interest to swear the protectors of the Prince to their code of honor?

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

That is far too many Humakti to all be individual exceptions, or to have no path of advancement to Rune Level.

Who says they can't be a Sword of Humakt? They are not shamans, the people who serve as priests among the Telmori, they are warriors. There is nothing preventing them from being priests or rune lords of another cult. If they are initiates of Humakt in good standing, there should be nothing preventing them from moving up in the cult hierarchy if they possess the necessary skills and commitments.

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

In fact, as i understand it, the reasons the numbers add up to 100, is because all of those are, as a matter of routine, exclusive options at the initiate level. The rare exceptions are rare enough to not trouble the statistics. Unlike city-dwellers, rural Telmori simply don't have a variety of temples they can choose to visit several of in parallel. The second nearest temple to where they live may well be a full days travel away. And they are very likely not going to be welcome if they did show up.

If all Telmori are initiated to Telmor upon their adulthood, I would suggest that the Telmor entry there is maybe more correctly Telmor Only. As the guards of the Prince, the Telmori had a significant persistent presence in Boldhome and would have access to the temples there. In their own lands they have enough worshippers to maintain their own shrines and small temples. Nothing says a temple has to be a building or even confined to a single place, one of the most famous Humakti temples in Sartar, the Temple of the Wooden Sword, was itinerant.

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

Also, being a travelling Issaries trader wouldn't be realistically possible if they involuntarily transformed.

It's worth pointing out that upon their transformation they don't become insensate monsters. They might be fearsome, but they're not going around mauling innocent Heortling children. It might not be wise to try their hand at being a travelling merchant, sure, but Issaries is also (and maybe more importantly) a god of messengers and diplomats. His cult creates channels of neutral communication and assures fair-dealing between parties. It's in everyone's interest to have the Issaries cult around to negotiate and resolve disputes.

Edited March 19, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, radmonger said:

i would count that as an individual exception. Neutral means dual membership is permitted under exceptional circumstances; if that permission becomes routine, it is hard to argue that the relationship remains neutral.

Cite for this?  It's not in the RuneQuest Glorantha rulebook.

 

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, radmonger said:

That is an entirely different question to whether a broo can become initiated to both Humakt and Thed.

You are relying to a stat description which is a rather weak reed to base your pronouncements of incompatibility upon.  Even in Cults of Prax, chaotic members of Humakt were acknowledge.