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Why does Argrath wipe out the Telmori?


Rodney Dangerduck

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7 hours ago, metcalph said:

Cite for this?  It's not in the RuneQuest Glorantha rulebook.

RQ;G p 274 unlike lay members, who have free association with other cults, initiates must partake only in rituals of their own cult and of associated and friendly cults.

RQ;G p 275; [initiates] must observe the cult holy days and sacrifice 2 magic points during cult worship rituals.

So not participating in worship ceremonies is in effect stricter than not joining.  Unless you are saying initiation doesn't necessarily count  as a ceremony, so someone could perhaps join for a season before the inevitable conflict between the two incompatible cults became irreconcilable?

The 'compatible cults' condition presumably excludes hostile and enemy cults, but neutral cults are ambiguous, hence my assumption about that requiring special permission. Certainly, I don't see how humakt, whose core myth is 'sever relationships with your kin if they become too problematic' is going to routinely make an exception for Telmor. it seems to me that myth is the core reason Humakt is so disproportionately popular there.

The 'tithe to two temples' condition also implies access to two temples, which is what the rural telmori are likely to lack. The royal guard would be able to meet that condition, assuming there is a Telmor temnples in boldhome.

Edited by radmonger
'cult' not 'cults'
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28 minutes ago, radmonger said:

RQ;G p 274 unlike lay members, who have free association with other cults, initiates must partake only in rituals of their own cults and of associated and friendly cults.

RQ;G p 275; [initiates] must observe the cult holy days and sacrifice 2 magic points during cult worship rituals.

yes but that doesn't mean you cannot join another cult

if you are both initiate of Humakt and Telmor, and are able (no auth, loyalty, don't know) to join both rituals of Humakt and Telmor, that's fine

there is no issue with the rules then.

I think that, in Sartar, most telmori (without T, just the people from the tribe) initiates of Humakt are bodyguards of the royal family.

 

Now are they choosen among the Telmori (with a T, initiates of Telmor) or among those who were not "welcome" by Telmor ? I don't know.

Both options are possible :

they are old oaths from the tribe to Sartar (so validated by Telmor) to choose bodyguards among Telmori,

but there are too some interest to send those who are not  Telmor initiates:

not "hazardous change-shape" bodyguard (interest for the royal family)

they have a future, even if it is not in the Telmor way, good for the parents/friends,  and that's fit with the Sartar alliance, good for the Telmori clans

 

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On 3/16/2023 at 8:17 PM, radmonger said:

I don't think that Telmori who become, say, Humakti transform on wildsday.

Why not? Whether you view the Telmori as inherently chaotic or not, it doesn't say anywhere that joining Humakt removes a chaos feature.  An ogre joining Humakt still has all those chaos bits.  So why would the Telmori transformation vanish?

Edited by DrGoth
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On 3/17/2023 at 12:08 AM, mfbrandi said:

e would guess that the players got a seven-word answer, not the characters — they have to read the signs/entrails/goose flights — and that the status of a successful roll is unclear. I suspect the spell was for the players to get straight answers about “factual matters” from the GM, not for worshippers to doorstep deities with attitude surveys: “On a scale of 1 (coldly furious) to 5 (warmly embracing), Mr Orlanth, how do you feel about werewolves?”

 

"I find them very furry, o worshipper" <- seven words

More seriously, I am very reluctant to give straight answers to anything but trivial divinations.  Divination shouldn't be code for "can I look at the GMs notes, please?"

Even more seriously, this is religion and spirituality we are talking about.  The God will give the answer that they think best serves the worshipper, not what the worshipper thinks they need. It may be a direct answer, or may be something much more esoteric.

Edited by DrGoth
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14 hours ago, Eff said:

EDIT: By "assumes", I mean that statements like "The Telmori have a simple and primitive physical culture. Since they weekly shed their hands and abandon their tools, they dare not make them too valuable." are somewhat difficult to square with a quarter to a third of Telmori not shapeshifting and presumably being able to pick up and put away dropped tools and possessions while their shapeshifted friends and family try to look sheepish in wolf form.

And still the Telmori are avid users of javelins, despite these taking enough of a ransom for a single battle 😉 , and half a ransom for a hunt with that missile.

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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58 minutes ago, radmonger said:

RQ;G p 274 unlike lay members, who have free association with other cults, initiates must partake only in rituals of their own cults and of associated and friendly cults.

My original response to you was that the actual question was whether they could *join* neutral cults.  I've been over that before and pointed out the the section about membership in multiple cults.  All that it stipulates there is that the cults be *compatible* (Cults of Terror allowed members from neutral cults to join and there are plenty of examples in the literature of this -for example, Lunars worshipping Pavis)  I am not seeing anything from you as to why Telmori cannot worship Humakt other than this just below:  

58 minutes ago, radmonger said:

RQ;G p 275; [initiates] must observe the cult holy days and sacrifice 2 magic points during cult worship rituals.

So not participating in worship ceremonies is in effect stricter than not joining.  Unless you are saying initiation doesn't necessarily count  as a ceremony, so someone could perhaps join for a season before the inevitable conflict between the two incompatible cults became irreconcilable?

Humakt's holy days are Windsday in Storm Season, Waterday in Sea Season, Fireday in Fire Season, Clayday in Earth and Freezeday in Dark Season.  Since Full Moon falls on Wilday in Prax and Dragon Pass, I'm not seeing the problem for the Telmori werewolf.

58 minutes ago, radmonger said:

The 'compatible cults' condition presumably excludes hostile and enemy cults, but neutral cults are ambiguous, hence my assumption about that requiring special permission.

That's not what Cults of Terror p89 describes and assuming a special permission is needed is something that not been seen before.  From who would the Telmori need the special permission?  The local Humakti priest in his tribe?  I've a feeling he would be little more than a rubber stamp.

58 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Certainly, I don't see how humakt, whose core myth is 'sever relationships with your kin if they become too problematic' is going to routinely make an exception for Telmor.

Telmor doesn't have a history of stealing stuff from Humakt.  Telmor isn't even Humakt's kin so there's no kinship relation to even *sever*.

58 minutes ago, radmonger said:

iThe 'tithe to two temples' condition also implies access to two temples, which is what the rural telmori are likely to lack.

Why can't the Telmori have a humakti brotherhood which functions as the local temple?  Cults of Prax speaks of "holy and magical swords" counting as "mobile altars or shrines" (CoP p33)

 

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14 hours ago, Eff said:

Now there's an immediate question here about people marrying into the tribe and whether their children count as "of Telmori parents" or not,

A question pertinent for Harsaltar and his sisters (the founders of the Household of Death).

But then, the difference is whether their initiation is automatic or whether they need to undergo an initiation trial beyond the Telmori adulthood rites for their own cubs.

What "rites" are there for cubs born to the Telmori wolves? At the very least, they are likely to receive a shaman's blessing at some point in their development, even if they don't choose a human-shaped partner.

14 hours ago, Eff said:

and whether they in turn become involuntary shapeshifters and get a wolf companion- indeed, it is questionable from the text if there are any Telmori women at all, since the Telmori and their wolf companions fight "as brothers", not as siblings.

 

At a guess, Harsaltar's mother was a member of the bodyguard pack of Boldhome, and possibly a grandchild or great-grandchild of Ostling Four-Wolves.

"Wolf-brothers" sounds slightly more threatening than "wolf silblings", doesn't it?

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

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2 hours ago, metcalph said:

Humakt's holy days are Windsday in Storm Season, Waterday in Sea Season, Fireday in Fire Season, Clayday in Earth and Freezeday in Dark Season.  Since Full Moon falls on Wilday in Prax and Dragon Pass, I'm not seeing the problem for the Telmori werewolf.

Those are the dates on which the poor guy must either not show up, break the prohibition on participating in an non-friendly cult worship ceremony, convince the temple hierarchy the other cult is actually friendly, be illuminated, or find some other excuse. Maybe they do a special purification heroquest each time, or something?

Maybe neither are grounds for immediate expulsion, but i can't see that kind of intentional and repetitive flouting of the rules lasting long. Two cults that don't allow each others initiates to remain initiates are not compatible. You can join, but that is going to mean leaving the other sooner rather than later.

Naturally YGMV, and YG may actually be RQ2's G. But that is what RQ;G rules say.

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5 hours ago, radmonger said:

 

Maybe neither are grounds for immediate expulsion, but i can't see that kind of intentional and repetitive flouting of the rules lasting long. Two cults that don't allow each others initiates to remain initiates are not compatible.

Methinks you are misinterpreting what that statement is about.  It's not what cults you can join but what worship ceremonies you can attend if you are a member of certain cults.  A worshipper of the Seven Mothers cannot attend a worship ceremony of Pavis because the cults are neutral to each other and they have no friends or associates in common.   In order to do so, the Lunar has to join his cult or that of the Zola Fel (other cults listed in Cults of Prax p50 are possible but rather improbable for a Lunar).  No special permission is or has ever been required and the rules do not make any mention of such a thing.  There is no problem with a Telmori worshipping Humakt in Dragon Pass (they could have a problem in Ralios or Fronela) and it is absurd to suggest otherwise.

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

Naturally YGMV, and YG may actually be RQ2's G. But that is what RQ;G rules say.

The RQ:G rules say no such thing.  Given that you are making assumptions *and* saying that they are what the rules say, I'm out of here.

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I would have sworn blind that there is a myth somewhere about Telmor having eaten / slain the Sun somewhere, but having spent a bit of time trying to find it again, I've had no success.

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23 minutes ago, Brian Duguid said:

I would have sworn blind that there is a myth somewhere about Telmor having eaten / slain the Sun somewhere, but having spent a bit of time trying to find it again, I've had no success.

That was when he was called Fenris 🙂

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3 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

a myth somewhere about Telmor having eaten / slain the Sun

Quote

Wolves are the children of Telmor. He fought many foes in the Gods War and ate most of them (including the Sun). He used his strength and cunning to survive through the Long Winter while other animals starved. He forged the first pack from his pups, teaching them that they were stronger together than alone. — Anaxial’s Roster, p. 96

I don’t know how that stands vis-à-vis current canon, but I cannot see why the Telmori should not tell that story.

It is almost enough to make one think that Orlanth and Eurmal are just misunderstandings of aspects of Telmor.

Excuse me while I find an appropriate moon to howl at.

Edited by mfbrandi
‘still tell’ -> ‘tell’
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NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST

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8 hours ago, Jeff said:

And who is to say that the Dragon Pass Humakt cult is not friendly towards his fellow Death God Telmor?

And in fact, in Dragon Pass, the Humakt cult and Telmor are mutually friendly. Which means regardless of how you read the  rules, Telmor initiates can initiate to Humakt without a problem. 

Remember, Prince Salinarg - whose wife was Telmori (!) - was the patron of the Household of Death, a key Humakti temple. Moreover, Prince Terasarin's daughter Tarkala was married to the Telmori Goram Whitefang, who in turn was the grandson of Onelisin, daughter of Prince Saronil (and the great-great-grandmother of Argrath).

Interestingly, the Orlanth cult and Telmor are neutral towards each other. And even Storm Bull is only hostile. 

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43 minutes ago, Jeff said:

And in fact, in Dragon Pass, the Humakt cult and Telmor are mutually friendly. Which means regardless of how you read the  rules, Telmor initiates can initiate to Humakt without a problem. 

Remember, Prince Salinarg - whose wife was Telmori (!) - was the patron of the Household of Death, a key Humakti temple. Moreover, Prince Terasarin's daughter Tarkala was married to the Telmori Goram Whitefang, who in turn was the grandson of Onelisin, daughter of Prince Saronil (and the great-great-grandmother of Argrath).

Interestingly, the Orlanth cult and Telmor are neutral towards each other. And even Storm Bull is only hostile. 

So Argrath becomes a kinslayer if he kills the leading Telmori? Or is it kinslaying only if it is in the same clan?

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45 minutes ago, Soccercalle said:

So Argrath becomes a kinslayer if he kills the leading Telmori? Or is it kinslaying only if it is in the same clan?

Given that Goram Whitefang is killed by Sarostip and his Humakti (Goram was trying to protect Temertain), I think the question is moot. That event, combined with King Kostajor Wolf-Champion (another kinsman of Argrath's) being murdered by his own great-nephew Jogar Sog means that perhaps we should be looking at a different set of kin-slaying. 

 

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1 hour ago, hipsterinspace said:

The Coming Storm mentions it in their section about the Telmori religion.

Thanks, and also to @mfbrandi for the Anaxial's Roster reference.

In my headcanon, Telmor's teeth have a passing relation to Orlanth's sword (Humakt) in their role in slaying the Sun, and so Humakti Telmori are just a bringing back together of two distantly related mythic traditions. Albeit probably not one that anyone acknowledges, just a bit of synchronicity.

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The Voralans presents Glorantha's magical mushroom humanoids, the black elves. "Absolutely phenomenal" - Austin C. "Seriously weird-ass shit" - John D. "A great piece of work" - Leon K. The Electrum best-selling The Children of Hykim documents Glorantha's shape-changing totemic animal people, the Hsunchen. "Magisterial ... highly recommended" - Nick Brooke. "Lovingly detailed and scholarly, and fun to read" - John H. "Absolutely wonderful!" - Morgan C.

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7 hours ago, Brian Duguid said:

I would have sworn blind that there is a myth somewhere about Telmor having eaten / slain the Sun somewhere, but having spent a bit of time trying to find it again, I've had no success.

There's a picture in Wyrms Footprints p42 about death-hounds carrying the Sun down to the underworld and mentions this is part of Orlanth's Sword Story.  It's not that much of a leap to identify Telmor as carrying down the Sun.

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13 minutes ago, metcalph said:

There's a picture in Wyrms Footprints p42 about death-hounds carrying the Sun down to the underworld and mentions this is part of Orlanth's Sword Story.  It's not that much of a leap to identify Telmor as carrying down the Sun.

That sounds more like Jajagappa than Telmor, he’s the psychopomp of the Solar pantheon. That would still be an interesting identification for would-be God Learners to try to make.

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2 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

That sounds more like Jajagappa than Telmor, he’s the psychopomp of the Solar pantheon. That would still be an interesting identification for would-be God Learners to try to make.

I don't know how far back the historical record on the jajagappa cult goes but yes, it would be interesting to posit a primeval "dog belt" that goes through cycles of consolidation (Wolf Empire) and fragmentation. They apparently found ways through the mountains so their cultural exchange didn't necessarily need to stop in the usual places. One question then might be how Jannisor's god differentiated as the wolves rose and fell . . . and what remains after centuries of lunar intervention.

Looking more carefully at the house of Sartar suggests a loophole in the taboo against love with non-shapeshifters; Change itself being a way (like Harmony) to transcend the taint and in the fullness of Time probably others we haven't learned much about yet.

singer sing me a given

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3 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

So Argrath becomes a kinslayer if he kills the leading Telmori? Or is it kinslaying only if it is in the same clan?

Do Telmori even have a specific rule about kinslaying? Wild wolves do sometimes kill other wolves. if not, gives another excuse for the Orlanthi to hate them.

Also, to what extent does the Humakti severance of clan ties count to avoid kinstrife? Say a humkati in a mercenary regiment ends on opposite side of a battle to their second cousin. Is that going to get them in mythical trouble?

Humakti magic is excellent for killing Telmori, and mostly useless to Telmori themselves for any other purpose. A wolf can't hold a sword.  So why is it that cult attracts 10% of the population?

 

 

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35 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Humakti magic is excellent for killing Telmori, and mostly useless to Telmori themselves for any other purpose. A wolf can't hold a sword.  So why is it that cult attracts 10% of the population?

Perhaps for the 6/7 days when they don't normally take wolf form, don't have an invulnerable hide, and may need other ways to deal with antagonists?

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