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Posted (edited)

Our RQG campaign is approaching (actually, slightly past  canon) the time for this very troubling event.  (1627 ish) My question as current GM for this is simple: Why?

I understand why the neighboring tribes would want to get back for years of harm.  But why does Argrath?  I'm aware of one darker theory, to wipe out other possible heirs of Sartar.  Anything else?

I've got my own idea that may get revealed in our version of Glorantha.  There's even a prophecy.  But surely non canonical.

Edited by Rodney Dangerduck
Posted (edited)

The Telmori betrayed Sartar and sided with the Lunars from memory, and have a long history of siding with chaotic assaults on the Orlanth (eg siding with Nysalor in the First Age).

And they do have chaotic shape shifters in their ranks, who involuntarily change on wild day, so strictly speaking wiping them out could be viewed as an Orlanthi cult obligation.

Edited by EricW
Posted

The Telmori are in the way of Argath's supporters in Sartar - they're a society which is hard to keep under control and can do huge damage to his supporters.  And Argath's solution to things is basically murder.  

 

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Posted
13 minutes ago, EricW said:

And they do have chaotic shape shifters in their ranks

Maybe it comes down to interpretations of this.  I disagree with you here.

King Sartar and his heirs, revered rulers and members of Orlanth Rex, honored and even married Telmori.  They made them a Tribe.  It seems clear that Telmori, at least "default" ones, can hardly be outright chaotic.  Did Sartar and heirs tell their bodyguards and wife to "Lie and whimper before me"?

If one disagrees with that reasoning and rules that the Telmori Tribe is indeed rife with Chaos, then yes, Argrath's actions make good sense.

As for Telmori being "tainted" by chaos, what's that really mean?  Seems like an excuse for prejudice.  (That's happened on Earth)   Which is not to say this isn't happening...

Posted
1 hour ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Our RQG campaign is approaching (actually, slightly past  canon) the time for this very troubling event.  (1627 ish) My question as current GM for this is simple: Why?

The Telmori provided a loyal dedicated bodyguard for the rightful heir, and the tribe included potential heirs to the House of Sartar. The refusal of the bodyguard to protect Temertain, and their persecution by the Lunar Wulflanders perhaps as part of the suppression of the House of Sartar, and their worsening relationship with other tribes suggesting that Sartar's agreements with them (reliant on the presence of his heir on the throne) were no longer binding, and all.... suggestive. Perhaps Argrath's royal claims were more tenuous than he admitted, and their destruction removes questions over his legitimacy and removes rivals.

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Posted

This seems like an aspect of the official post-1625 timeline that's ripe for gaming groups to reinterpret. What if the Telmori were simply ("simply") subdued, pressured, or diplomatically convinced to renew their bonds to the House of Sartar? PCs get the opportunity to take part in all sorts of machinations, etc. - possibly some involving violence - during the difficult process of winning the Telmori back, while conciliating all the clans who've been feuding with them. End result, Argrath gets a spiffy new group of guards and some potent warriors for his campaigns against the Lunars. 

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Posted

The Telmori formed up into the Royal Guard for the House of Sartar, and became valued and trusted in that role for many generations; there was even intermarriage!

And yet, it happened.  My own theories:

  • narratively, it's one of the signifiers that Argrath is not a Hero (except in the strictly game-mechanical sense of "hero"):  it shows that Argrath is a Destroyer
  • meta-game-wise, it presents a story-hook for every table/GM -- "Yeah, why did Argrath turn on the Sartar Royal Guard??!?"
  • for a "rational" in-game reason:  the Chaos-tainted Telmori show evidence (in the  Wild-Day cycle = Lunar cycle ) that they are actually  controlled by the Moon; that's obviously a huge tactical weakness in the heart of the kingdom, as you go to fight the Lunars!

I expect there are other reasons.  I don't know that "the canon" does or doesn't give any in-world reasons...?

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Posted (edited)
50 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

...  As for Telmori being "tainted" by chaos, what's that really mean?  Seems like an excuse for prejudice.  (That's happened on Earth)   Which is not to say this isn't happening...

Sartar -- Orlanthi in general -- see "Chaos" as an existential threat.
Character creation throws up "Hate Chaos" and "Fear Chaos" Passions routinely.

And -- let's be honest -- Chaos (objectively, as a plain fact of Glorantha) is an existential threat.

Maybe Sedenya has worked something out, somehow; or maybe she's just the latest mask of Gbaji, and will destroy the world if left un-checked.
 

None of which is to say anything against the suggestion that  "it's Chaos!"  can be (and sometimes is) used as an excuse to other someone and kill them, for no reason but that they are different & you're uncomfortable about that fact.

In the end, your campaign is free to make this be an act of deepest villainy on Argrath's part; or something morally-ambiguous; or a tragic-but-needed cleansing of Chaos (like an amputation that saves a life).

Edited by g33k
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Posted
2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Maybe it comes down to interpretations of this.  I disagree with you here.

King Sartar and his heirs, revered rulers and members of Orlanth Rex, honored and even married Telmori.  They made them a Tribe.  It seems clear that Telmori, at least "default" ones, can hardly be outright chaotic.  Did Sartar and heirs tell their bodyguards and wife to "Lie and whimper before me"?

If one disagrees with that reasoning and rules that the Telmori Tribe is indeed rife with Chaos, then yes, Argrath's actions make good sense.

As for Telmori being "tainted" by chaos, what's that really mean?  Seems like an excuse for prejudice.  (That's happened on Earth)   Which is not to say this isn't happening...

The Telmori who turn into wolves on Wildday were cursed by Talor for serving Nysalor, who he thought was chaos-tainted (that Nysalor was Gbaji, in fact).

That's why the Sartarites think they are Chaotic, though a lot of that comes down to 'they're really good at killing our livestock and us'.

3 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Telmori provided a loyal dedicated bodyguard for the rightful heir, and the tribe included potential heirs to the House of Sartar. The refusal of the bodyguard to protect Temertain, and their persecution by the Lunar Wulflanders perhaps as part of the suppression of the House of Sartar, and their worsening relationship with other tribes suggesting that Sartar's agreements with them (reliant on the presence of his heir on the throne) were no longer binding, and all.... suggestive. Perhaps Argrath's royal claims were more tenuous than he admitted, and their destruction removes questions over his legitimacy and removes rivals.

I'm pretty sure that the Telmori *did* guard Temertain.

At least at first.

2 hours ago, g33k said:

The Telmori formed up into the Royal Guard for the House of Sartar, and became valued and trusted in that role for many generations; there was even intermarriage!

And yet, it happened.  My own theories:

  • narratively, it's one of the signifiers that Argrath is not a Hero (except in the strictly game-mechanical sense of "hero"):  it shows that Argrath is a Destroyer
  • meta-game-wise, it presents a story-hook for every table/GM -- "Yeah, why did Argrath turn on the Sartar Royal Guard??!?"
  • for a "rational" in-game reason:  the Chaos-tainted Telmori show evidence (in the  Wild-Day cycle = Lunar cycle ) that they are actually  controlled by the Moon; that's obviously a huge tactical weakness in the heart of the kingdom, as you go to fight the Lunars!

I expect there are other reasons.  I don't know that "the canon" does or doesn't give any in-world reasons...?

Argath is not a modern hero, he's an engine of destruction.  (He's certainly not a man of peace like Sartar was.)

Posted
6 minutes ago, John Biles said:

The Telmori who turn into wolves on Wildday were cursed by Talor for serving Nysalor, who he thought was chaos-tainted (that Nysalor was Gbaji, in fact).

That's why the Sartarites think they are Chaotic, though a lot of that comes down to 'they're really good at killing our livestock and us'.\\

The Sartarites think the Telmori are chaos-tainted because they *are* chaos-tainted.  

Quote

Wolfbrothers are tainted by Chaos.  

They are hated for their tendency to hunt indiscriminately in other peoples’ lands and are feared because they are werewolves and tainted by Chaos 

Their Chaotic nature gives them their abilities of involuntary shape change and invulnerability to impure metals. The Wolfbrothers do not receive any other Chaotic
features. Despite their Chaos taint, the Telmori Wolfbrothers are a tribe of Sartar and were loyal to the House of Sartar.  

Runes: Beast 75%  Chaos 20%

Telmor Runes:  :20-form-beast::20-power-movement::20-form-chaos:.

RuneQuest: Glorantha Bestiary p84-86

 

 

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Posted
25 minutes ago, John Biles said:

...

Argath is not a modern hero, he's an engine of destruction.  (He's certainly not a man of peace like Sartar was.)

Argrath -- like Arkat before him -- is an ambiguous figure.
It's not entirely clear that he's not a  "cure that's worse than the disease." 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, g33k said:

Argrath -- like Arkat before him -- is an ambiguous figure.
It's not entirely clear that he's not a  "cure that's worse than the disease." 

The alternative was rule by Wakboth, slavery as the plaything of brutal chaos fiends, until the final dissolution of the world. The world was already falling apart, a process which accelerated under the monster empire. Chaotic magic was causing manifestations like the shadow's good shadow;

Quote

 

... The Red Emperor, who had served the Red Goddess for so long, was gone. The beings who took his place were not human, and had objectives which were beyond human ken. The empire of evil did not lack supporters who sought to get whatever they could before the end of their days. Anyone with compassion was seen as a willing victim, and the oppression within the empire was far worse than the military efforts outside of it. They let the Ice come, because it suited them.

[Then Shadow’s Good Shadow came and begged the High King for help. This being was a pure victim of the corruptive, life‐sapping imperial policies. She was not really female, but was called female because she was a shadow of what a man could have been without being a woman. This sort of non‐being was common within the empire at this stage of history, for the very fabric of the world was coming unwoven because so much Chaotic magic was being used.]

The King was not the only person to be alarmed by this oncoming disaster. The dissolution of the world had progressed so far that many of the ancient gods woke into conscious action. Those beings had been forbidden by their own oaths to ever intervene directly into the world of life unless their very essence was threatened with entropic destruction. And in the days when the Great King fought against the Monster Empire, the gods walked beside him. The Great King sent messengers to all of the other great leaders of the world, and he asked all of them who loved freedom and life to send their best and bravest heroes to help him remove even the shadow of the Moon from the world. ...

 

The "... fabric of the world coming unwoven ..." doesn't sound like a good alternative to Argrath pulling down the moon and ending the reign of horror. 

Edited by EricW
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Posted (edited)

Part of it was doubtless that the Telmoris' Sartarite neighbors all hate them with a passion - not without good reason, frankly. Their tolerance for the Royal House of Sartar's patronage of the Telmori was likely never more than grudging, and this enmity allowed the Lunars - particularly Jomes Hostralos - to befriend many of the northern Sartarite tribes by becoming their allies against the Telmori. Many people victimized by the Telmori would see little reason to support the pro-Telmori Kallyr over the guys who were helping them get their own back against the hated Chaos-tainted wolf-men, after all.

For Argrath to secure his frankly tenuous position in that (fairly important) region, then, he has a choice to make. Does he renew the Prince of Sartar's alliance with the Telmori like Kallyr did (or wanted to), doubtlessly angering all of their neighbors and perhaps driving at least some of them to neutrality or even siding against Argrath in favor of the Lunars? Or does he give the Sartarites what they want, buying their loyalty with Telmori blood?

To Argrath, the correct answer likely seemed obvious, even if he might have considered it distasteful (I personally don't tend to see Argrath as willfully cruel or just entirely callous, but rather driven to do whatever it takes to bring down the Red Moon, like Arkat was with Nysalor).

Edited by Leingod
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Posted
2 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Or perhaps what they really want is the land held by the Telmori??? Argrath has to pay for his army of supporters somehow, and giving away the land of others is one option.

This has a feel of truth to it   Argrath certainly "pays" his bud Harrek with the loot of others.

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Posted

Like a lot of debatable points like this, it has some good seeds for play.  A lot have already been mentioned.  Another could be PCs rescuing what they can of the Telmori and helping them flee elsewhere.  It could be an important point at which the players relationship with Argrath changes - either deepening or weakening.

Posted

According to the memories of Minaryth Blue there is also a conflict with the Dinacoli tribe. Given the topography of the Dinacoli lands - the Donalf flats - there might be some resettlement of Praxians going on here?

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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

Posted
12 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

(1627 ish) My question as current GM for this is simple: Why?

It starts in the lead up to the Battle of Heroes with the Telmori, plundering the herds when the chaos pincer movement starts, see KoS 2ed 19. I suspect that they were either in the pay of Jar-eel, or just did a stupid thing at a inopportune time.

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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Telmori provided a loyal dedicated bodyguard for the rightful heir, and the tribe included potential heirs to the House of Sartar. The refusal of the bodyguard to protect Temertain, and their persecution by the Lunar Wulflanders perhaps as part of the suppression of the House of Sartar, and their worsening relationship with other tribes suggesting that Sartar's agreements with them (reliant on the presence of his heir on the throne) were no longer binding, and all.... suggestive. Perhaps Argrath's royal claims were more tenuous than he admitted, and their destruction removes questions over his legitimacy and removes rivals.

That is unlikely given the Telmori features in the Sartarite Hero Wars line-up.   Given they are Royal Bodyguards, it is more likely that they try to pull some "praetorian guard" nonsense on Argrath.  We all know how he feels about assassins. 

Edited by Darius West
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Darius West said:

That is unlikely given the Telmori features in the Sartarite Hero Wars line-up. 

I have no idea what that means.

1 hour ago, Darius West said:

Given they are Royal Bodyguards, it is more likely that they try to pull some "praetorian guard" nonsense on Argrath.  We all know how he feels about assassins. 

Later the Telmori were fighting for their survival against the other Sartari that's not likely.

The Royal Guard ends in 1624 when Goram Whitefang dies striving to defend his kinsman Temertain against the Humakti assassins, and the Telmori blood connection to the House of Sartar is severed. The Telmori Royal Guard completely disbands, abandoning their homes in Boldhome, and returns to the Wolf Ridges.

Edited by M Helsdon
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Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, David Scott said:

It starts in the lead up to the Battle of Heroes with the Telmori, plundering the herds when the chaos pincer movement starts, see KoS 2ed 19. I suspect that they were either in the pay of Jar-eel, or just did a stupid thing at a inopportune time.

The Telmori were not alone in their uprising - the Dinacoli needed killing, too, according to Minaryth Blue. IMO this is a reaction to the presence of Praxian thugs on Sartarite pastures.

The Telmori would have no contractual taboo against raiding Praxian herds in Sartar - in fact, in the past such activity would have been seen as defending their agricultural neighbors. The Telmori are adjacent to the two main routes from Sartar into the Pol Joni Marches and would naturally react to big herds of Praxian beasts upsetting their typical prey and devouring all the fodder in the migration paths of their normal targets.

This is a typical conflict between pastoralists and hunter-gatherers, where the natjve herd migrations of wild beasts get disrupted by pastoralism and consumption of the best fertile ground for agriculture. Much like the Praxians resist farming in the Zola Fel valley, the Telmori resist Praxian presence in their hunting grounds.

 

Kallyr included the Telmori in her ascension confirmations, quite pointedly. Argrath avoids this. Why?

Edited by Joerg
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Telling how it is excessive verbis

 

Posted

A couple of other potential factors you can use here:

-Argrath seems to have a number of Storm Bull cultists in his army, so it may be a way to keep their firm support by offering them violence against a "Chaotic"/"Chaos-tainted" target, in particular if he doesn't want to pillage Alda-Chur or deeper in Tarsh, or can't. 

-Argrath is aiming to distance himself from the previous princes Kallyr and Salinarg by emphasizing that he's for humans and against non-humans/werewolves. Perhaps around this time the three duck Sartar City Militia chits are dispatched to Delecti and the Ivory Plinth.

-The Telmori, with their coincidental Red Moon associations, are a viable, ethnically distinct target for unifying Sartarites against the Lunars without going through the difficulties of purging every 7 Mothers convert. 

-Argrath believes that as Arkat reborn it is his duty to finish the job Arkat started through violence against the werewolves. 

-The Telmori refused to join Argrath initially and he takes vengeance against them as backsliders and forms the Wolfrunners as a positive side effect. 

-The Telmori stand in the way of Argrath clear-cutting their forested lands to fuel a heavily expanded weapons industry, and Argrath can sidestep the power of the oaths and obligations between the werewolves and the principality through mass murder. 

All of these are of course bleak, but ethnic cleansing and genocide kind of are that way no matter what. 

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Posted
1 hour ago, Eff said:

-Argrath believes that as Arkat reborn it is his duty to finish the job Arkat started through violence against the werewolves. 

Or conversely the Telmori recognize Argrath as Arkat/Gbaji, not the heir of Sartar, so attempt to assassinate him, triggering one of Argrath the Destroyer's acts of vengeance.

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