Heroes, superheroes and demigods

[Jeff]

6 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I think Belintar at least skipped straight from hero to god.

Belintar is a god, not a superhero. Greg held that from 1444 on, so was Sheng Seleris. 

But then again, the very term "superhero" is an artifice of WBRM. If we made a boardgames set in 1313, would we have Belintar be a CF 20 counter? Would Sheng Seleris or Garangordos? I am not sure they would be. All I know for certain is that Greg imagined that Androgeus, Argrath, Arkat, Jar-eel, Harrek, and Yanafal Tarnils could be expressed that way.

[Jeff]

So when we think about a "superhero"- we are dealing with an entity in the physical world who, together with their companions and followers, who are worth the equivalent of four or five experienced regiments. They may not be harmed except by the most disciplined and experienced regiments, each other, the lesser heroes, Dragons, or the incarnate of several cults. It is not often that a people’s consciousness can produce a vehicle for their needs, thus creating a personage with the massed power of thousands of unconscious minds.

To further cite Greg, "More important than any of this is the simple presence and Being of the Superheroes. This, their individual souls, is what makes them worth regiments."
 

[Harry the Dirty Dog]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

So when we think about a "superhero"- we are dealing with an entity in the physical world who, together with their companions and followers, who are worth the equivalent of four or five experienced regiments. They may not be harmed except by the most disciplined and experienced regiments, each other, the lesser heroes, Dragons, or the incarnate of several cults. It is not often that a people’s consciousness can produce a vehicle for their needs, thus creating a personage with the massed power of thousands of unconscious minds.

To further cite Greg, "More important than any of this is the simple presence and Being of the Superheroes. This, their individual souls, is what makes them worth regiments."
 

So while we have all been focussed on the steps that need to be taken to become a Superhero, some of us missed the fact that all Superheroes a) need to have a personal presence that is out of the ordinary, b) have a huge range of magical and mundane support (I mean that in a very broad sense - I'm reluctant to say worship) and c) work across cultural boundaries.

Much of this echoes what Dave Cake said earlier.

[davecake]

20 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Harder to say with the Seven Mothers, they fully apotheosized after reassembling the moon, but certainly most of them were also prolific heroquesters given their accomplishments.

I don’t think any of the Seven Mothers have Superhero status. But seven Heroes is pretty significant fire power, at least equivalent to a Superhero in collective heft. 
I know there are some advocate for Yanafals being a Superhero based on his defeat  of Humakt, but I don’t think it’s that simple. 

[davecake]

20 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

Jar-eel, on the other hand, has her own Glowspot, something shared with the Silver Shadow of the Red Goddess and the Crimson Bat, making her both a powerful magician in her own right and greatly increasing the power of all Lunar magic in her presence.

I think Jar-Eel has, in addition to, of course, full access to the magic of the Red Goddess (Glowspot, empowered spirit magic), access to all the magic of the Seven Mothers and other Lunar cults, directly and through her close companions, including shamanism through Jakaleel and sorcery through Irripi Ontor. This does not mean she is a sorcerer (though she probably is, because she is good at everything), but that she has sorcerous long term spells on her, sorcerous relics of great power, sorcerous assistants, and probably sorcerous magical allies. But it’s a sideline, compared to her massive mastery of sorcerous Rune magic - through which she gains abilities like manifesting extra arms from Yara Aranis, a huge array of Lunar spirits on call, Mind and sanity blasting powers, access to all elements but Storm, etc. And that’s all before we get to her own array of Heroquest powers, which of course is enormous. 

20 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

though Arkat was, and if anyone had mastered all forms of magic it was probably him in his final form, if not as an illuminated mistress race troll (who are said to have sorcerer-shaman-priestesses among their number).

Arkat was, of course, a sorcerer as a Man of All, and a significant enough sorcerer to have created multiple spells, and his own school of sorcery, the Black Arkat cult. And of course Illuminated, and a member of multiple cults, including Orlanth, and seemingly a hero of the Humakt cult (and numbering another Humakti Hero, Makla Mann, among his close companions). Whether or not he was a shaman (it’s not recorded that he was AFAIK, and he doesn’t appear to have associated with any shamanic tradition before becoming a troll), he was (according to the Xeotam dialogues) a kaelith - as someone who returned bodily from the Underworld after death, he was able to dissolve his body and enter the spirit world naturally, so capable of feats otherwise only achievable by shamans or by using the Discorporation spell, and without the need for a fetch to guard his body. He may have gained a fetch as a troll later. 

The trolls of Guhan are said to include Mistress Race trolls who are the daughters of Arkat when he was a troll, and I am sure they are generally both honored as great troll shaman-priestesses of Kygor Litor (as Mistress Trolls usually are) and fully initiated into their fathers mysteries (and thus Illuminated sorcerers, and heroquesters). They are said to dwell in the troll city of Buruzronkurz particularly. As Mistress Race trolls are immortal, they are likely around a thousand years old - and of course, they may have descendants since. Confusingly these, the actual Children of Arkat, seem to be a different group than the Wizard Children, who are the trolls who are the descendants of the First Hundred trolls who followed and fought with Arkat in Dorastor and returned to Ralios with him afterwards, who certainly number sorcerers and Illuminates and shamans among them, but it is unknown if they include immortal Mistress Race. I think sorcery was unknown to trolls prior to Arkat, and probably few of the ancient Mistress Race learnt it since, apart from maybe those few (like maybe Garazaf Hyloric) who associated with Arkat during his life. Outside Guhan the Black Arkat sorcery school seems to be more closely associated with the Argan Argar cult. 

[davecake]

21 hours ago, hipsterinspace said:

would agree that many heroes and all superheroes are illuminated: heroquest to enough strange places and things probably start to move in that direction, especially with the dangerous, experimental kind that Jar-eel and Harrek are both said to be very adept at. I don’t know whether that would be the source of their immunity to most magic, I’d think it’s more that they exist so fully on the other side that most magic doesn’t really touch them, but it certainly helps with navigating otherwise fraught mythic relationships to find new powers.

Illumination itself is not enough to get anything like the immunity to magic that a superhero has. But Illumination does provide some potential immunity to attempts to force a hero to either abide by the myths of their god (forcing them into an untenable position) or be greatly weakened, a sort of maneuver I think often used in heroic contests (for example, when the Red Emperor defeated the Harsaltar of the Household of Death). It lets them deal with attempts to turn their own cult against them (as the Orlanth priests did to Alakoring, and there are several examples from Dara Happan history), and it lets them control their own most passions when they would lead them astray or cause them to give into fear. 

And I think there is more to mysticism than what we know as Illumination. Illumination itself is just the entry into mystic magic - similar to the way becoming a shaman is just the entry to shamanic magic. And we mostly see Illumination from the perspective of cultures that have limited understanding of it, and have not really developed it. 
Beyond Illumination lies access to magic learnable only by Illuminates (such as Red Goddess magic, or potentially Dragon Magic by non-Dragonewts, the great mystic feats of the East Isles mystics, etc), otherwise impossible combinations of magic (eg sorcerer-shamans), very broad Rune magic access (even without embracing the ‘Dark Side’ - eg Lunars in the LCM embracing ‘multiple phases’ which I take to be wielding the magic of multiple Lunar cults without penalty, or Larstings having access to a wide range of Movement magic), access to other worlds not available to others, etc. Immunity to some magics is known to be a typical power of some mystics (eg the kolathi in Lunar history). 
This doesn’t really conflict with the idea (from the guide pg 9) that mysticism itself has little magic, and that mostly of interest only to the mystic - most of these examples are either quite passive, or about how Illumination radically transforms the practice of other forms of magic. 

[g33k]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

... 
I know there are some advocate for Yanafals being a Superhero based on his defeat  of Humakt, but I don’t think it’s that simple. 

🤯

"some who advocate for Yanafal," he says ...

😄

11 hours ago, Jeff said:

... All I know for certain is that Greg imagined that Androgeus, Argrath, Arkat, Jar-eel, Harrek, and Yanafal Tarnils could be expressed that way.

That particular someone is good enough for me.

Obviously, YGWV.

Of course, my own Glorantha varies in (still) having broadly-omnivorous Morokanth, not the namby-pamby vegetarian ones (as Gregged of late).

Edited April 19, 2023 by g33k

[Harry the Dirty Dog]

12 hours ago, Jeff said:

My short list of Gloranthan superheroes are basically: Androgeus, Arkat, Harrek, Jar-eel, and Yanafal Tarnils.

Arkat, Harrek and Jar-Eel I can understand.  Androgeus, I don't know enough about.  I'm not particularly up to date on Yanafal Tarnils outside of the basics so I don't get what raises him to Superhero status above the other Six Mothers.

My other is why other entities in Glorantha haven't made the list.  What makes those five so special? 

[metcalph]

3 hours ago, Harry the Dirty Dog said:

Arkat, Harrek and Jar-Eel I can understand.  Androgeus, I don't know enough about.  I'm not particularly up to date on Yanafal Tarnils outside of the basics so I don't get what raises him to Superhero status above the other Six Mothers.

It's just that he's been called Superhero in the Redline History (early version).  The other five Mothers were more into becoming Gods than Heroes.  

3 hours ago, Harry the Dirty Dog said:

My other is why other entities in Glorantha haven't made the list.  What makes those five so special? 

At a rough guess, a critical concentration of heroic powers.  Arkat, Harrek and JarEel were all forged in epic conflicts that makes clashes between the Red Emperor and Sheng Seleris, say, seem like mere child's play.

[DrGoth]

17 hours ago, Jeff said:

Now in at least one ending of the Hero Wars

Meaning there are many possible endings. YAY!!!!!!!!!

[Joerg]

If we are looking at the old board-games, Tada is missing on the list of superheroes. Needs re-assembly, though.

[radmonger]

20 hours ago, Jeff said:

So Argrath is a hero to the Orlanthi and Praxians, the Red Emperor is a hero to the Lunars, Jaldon to the Praxians, and so on. But Harrek, Jar-eel, and Androgeus are feared throughout the world. They are the personification of a million dreams (or nightmares) rolled Ito one body. 

The thing about RQ combat is that while you can be powerful and scary, you can always be killed.

But if you kill a hero, someone will want to bring them back, above and beyond the normal 7-day CA resurrection. However, they live locally, and someone probably knows where. So that is a solvable problem.

If you kill a superhero, the set of people who desperately want them back is large and widespread. So their return is as inevitable as that of, say, captain america that one time he died.

Being really really good at fighting is a downstream effect of getting into lots of dangerous fights and getting to keep your character sheet.

Kallyr's death as the battle of queens would have been a beat in her story arc, had she been a hero, not merely a heroquester. But the Lunars and/or Argrath were able to dissuade or take out her most dedicated and powerful supporters. And, canonically, there were no PCs there to fill in the hole.

Arkat is the ultimate superhero because, despite his peaceful death of natural causes centuries ago, he is coming back. And not just once...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_Captain_America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_America:_Reborn

 

 

 

[DrGoth]

19 hours ago, radmonger said:

The thing about RQ combat is that while you can be powerful and scary, you can always be killed.

 

That's assuming

a) RQ combat applies to superheroes/heroes

b) a given hero or superhero doesn't have a gift like "take minimum damage from all weapons"

[radmonger]

45 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

a) RQ combat applies to superheroes/heroes

Absolutely; in hero wars, the ruies were specially set up so that a PC could never threaten a hero, and no hero could ever challenge a superhero, like they were d&d level 1, 8 and 20 respectively. I never really understood how that was supposed to be fun to play out, and it got dropped pretty early in the HW/HQ/QW rewrites .

 

45 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

b) a given hero or superhero doesn't have a gift like "take minimum damage from all weapons"

That's a classic conditional immunity that is going to get you killed the first time you go up against anyone who has done their pre-fight research.

Edited April 20, 2023 by radmonger

[DrGoth]

37 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Absolutely; in hero wars, the ruies were specially set up so that a PC could never threaten a hero, and no hero could ever challenge a superhero, like they were d&d level 1, 8 and 20 respectively. I never really understood how that was supposed to be fun to play out, and it got dropped pretty early in the HW/HQ/QW rewrites .

My Glorantha varies - I'm not interested in one where random Joe Pigsticker can take out a super hero.

I'm going to borrow from Nick Brooke (possibly more than he'd like - sorry Nick):

"My approach to running RQ now is to treat the rules as binding on the players –
they explain how they think the world works. My job as their GM is to move them
into a wider, more interesting world: RQG gives them a toolkit to understand and
interact with it, but the stuff I’m building and throwing at them doesn’t have to
be built from the ground up using those tools." Nick Brooke's Gloranthan Manifesto, p.20

Under which approach it *can* (to my way of reading it) mean that you don't have to apply RQ combat to heroes and superheroes, at least, no more than you want to. Now obviously that's not "by the book" and depends on you adopting that approach - which many won't want to. But again I defer to Nick's view on when to apply the rules and when not to (and how to apply them). But I certainly don't see the MGF in "Who needs Harrek? Orlanthi numpty #347 just rolled a 01. Bye, bye Jar-Eel"

As to "how that was supposed to be fun". My interpretation (but it's only mine and I didn't write that stuff) was that it was possible. If you did the preparation. if you got the support. If there were enough of you.  It makes my fingers ache, because I loathe D&D, but enough 8s will take out a 20 - with planning and preparation, not a lucky die roll.  So with deliberation and planning you can do it - not by getting lucky with the dice.

Or by adventuring to get to the equivalent level.  While the list Jeff gave elsewhere is the canonical set of superheroes, who says your players can't get that far?

Edited April 20, 2023 by DrGoth

[Darius West]

On 4/19/2023 at 3:26 AM, Richard S. said:

I think Belintar at least skipped straight from hero to god.

That is equivocal, given that Belintar repeatedly incarnates into the winners of the Tournaments of Luck and Death.  That seems more...  "Ephraim Waite" than either heroic or superheroic, and not really godlike either.  I suspect Pavis is more of a genuine deity, and he too seems to have gone from hero to God, albeit a small one.

[DrGoth]

I think it's pretty clear that you don't have to go through superhero to get from hero to god.  There's too many examples of hero->god. Not that any body seems to be saying the opposite.  What's more interesting is what that says about the ways in which you become a god. For a start, you don't need to get to the ultimate levels of (uper_herodom to attain divinity.  It also says something about the power levels of those rated in the category superhero

[Akhôrahil]

One of the things I can't quite wrap my head around is the difference between a Superhero and a Demigod. They seem to be within the same order of magnitude at least, but there's little to no overlap, so it seems to be two very different states. What makes Ralzakark, Takenegi or TOOO a demigod and not a superhero, for instance? 

Edited April 21, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Akhôrahil]

On 4/18/2023 at 7:26 PM, Richard S. said:

I think Belintar at least skipped straight from hero to god.

Through demigod, perhaps?

[radmonger]

3 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

One of the things I can't quite wrap my head around is the difference between a Superhero and a Demigod.

A hero is hard to kill, and comes back when they die. A superhero, more so.

A god doesn't need to die to come back. So they can be in multiple places at once, as required to answer every worshiper simultaneously. A demigod has that power, but with restrictions and limitations. So preparing a new mask for Moonson  is a much more elaborate and costly activity than sanctifying a shrine.

 

Edited April 21, 2023 by radmonger

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

A god doesn't need to die to come back. So they can be in multiple places at once, as required to answer every worshiper simultaneously. A demigod has that power, but with restrictions and limitations. So preparing a new mask for Moonson  is a much more elaborate and costly activity than sanctifying a shrine.

The "multiple bodies (in serial or in parallel)" certainly does apply to Belintar and Ralzakark as well. As well as Arkat Reborn, I guess.

Edited April 21, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The "multiple bodies (in serial or in parallel)" certainly does apply to Belintar and Ralzakark as well. As well as Arkat Reborn, I guess.

It is all done with time travel and matter transporters. The National Film Board of Canada had a cartoon about it, probably this one. See also Budrys’ Rogue Moon (The Death Machine) — now there’s a heroquest — and Derek Parfit’s classic Reasons and Persons. (And, you know, a million other things, including the madder bits of Heinlein and Gerrold.)

[Shiningbrow]

On 4/19/2023 at 12:05 PM, davecake said:

otherwise impossible combinations of magic (eg sorcerer-shamans)

I don't see this to be the case - not inherently.

I think it's the cults on the lozenge that have made that rule, certainly not the gods nor anything within a being's make-up that precludes such combinations. Ok, some spirits may not take it so well - but if trolls are able to have sorcery and be shamans, then there doesn't seem to be an issue with at least some of them. Certainly, the gods aren't going to care (unless they specifically hate Lhankor Mky, or maybe Mostal...*)

Also, 'sorcery' appears to be a very wide-ranging term that's not so easy to identify. Given that, I think it makes it harder to interpret the over-aching ban on all sorcery can't be shamans (or vice-versa - although I don't think there's a problem on the sorcery side).

And I've asked this question before (a year or 2 ago), without much conclusive answers - what does it actually mean to be a shaman? Personally, I think it means having a fetch, and the ability to discorporate without external help. Neither of those precludes knowledge of sorcery.

So, the only roadblock seems to be either a cult (and specifically a cult in a particular region), or perhaps some variant of a Horned Man and/or Bad Man... do trolls go to a different entity called the Horned Man? Or is it the same entity in a different form? If it's a different entity, couldn't some non-troll contact them directly anyway? (of course, this assumes there's only one way to gain self-discorporation and a fetch). And... I don't think it's been categorically shown that the ability to discorporate is a power conferred from someone/thing on the other side, rather than a skill that can be taught by someone on this side. (And, I can't see why it couldn't be a HQ power, nor something that a sorcerer couldn't come up with).

And, if you're illuminated....

 

Getting the third magic would be relatively easy - trolls do it almost on a daily basis...

 

(*precluding anything western, because that appears to have come later, and there's not much in the way of cross-overs for it to matter).

[DrGoth]

21 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

One of the things I can't quite wrap my head around is the difference between a Superhero and a Demigod. They seem to be within the same order of magnitude at least, but there's little to no overlap, so it seems to be two very different states. What makes Ralzakark, Takenegi or TOOO a demigod and not a superhero, for instance? 

Add Cragspider to that list. GtG vol 1 p170 "Cragspider the Firewitch: This demigoddess is the best known and perhaps most powerful of all trolls.

My best guess (and it's only a guess) is the power range.  Superhgoes are more powerful than heroes.  Think about these questions: "is there any superhero that isn't a demigod?" and "is there any demigod that isn't at least a hero?"   I think the answer to the second is 'no". At least I'm pretty sure it is.  Same for the first one, but not as definite.

[Akhôrahil]

24 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

I think the answer to the second is 'no". At least I'm pretty sure it is.  Same for the first one, but not as definite.

It might depend - every mortal who has risen to become a demigod has surely passed through the hero stage, but I could also picture demigods that are merely very small gods and always have been, and those probably aren't heroes.