Heroes, superheroes and demigods

[Soccercalle]

I know that a Hero has access to the Mastery Rune and a Superhero the Infinity Rune. But what does that really mean. How do you win those Runes? Do you get it at birth if Orlanth is your father (like Ironhoof)?

I am glad that Runequest is a skill-based and not a level-based rpg. But sometimes I wonder when does someone becomes a hero. It can't just be that you are a hero quester. Many rune lords has made at least one "otherworld" heroquest. 

Maybe a hero is someone who has created a new and unique heroquest? I think it makes sense to state that Argrath becomes a "hero" after he helped Gonn Orta to get a baby and later to bring the Cradle down to Magastas Pool. I don't think that Argrath becomes a "superhero" before the heroquest that brought back Sheng Seleris.

Did Harrek become a superhero after he killed his own god?

Did Jar-Eel become a superhero just by being an incarnation of Monsoon? Or did she have to "do" something"?

[Richard S.]

I believe the main requirement is awakening a Hero Soul: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/so-what-is-the-hero-soul/. In short, a Hero is anyone who has a piece of themselves permanently in the Hero Plane/Gods War while still staying active in the mortal world, unlike gods who are fully trapped in the Gods War.

I don't think there's really a difference between heroes and superheroes, especially to people on the lozenge, the latter is just shorthand for us to identify the Heroes who are farthest along in their development.

[g33k]

The specific terminology comes from the misty dawn ages of Glorantha, i.e. the WBRM wargames.  It's a very formulaic & mechanical sort of definition.

Heroquesting is being on the Hero's pathway.  If you're successful -- multiple HQ's to your credit, including some non-formulaic ones -- you may well become a Hero.
 

RQG game-mechanics haven't yet been published.

As noted by Richard S, it looks like there will be a "Hero Soul" which must be "awakened" (comparisons to the Shamanic "Fetch" seem inevitable).
Very often, I think, new Heroes will have veneration (MP sacrificed to them) by their communities.

A "Superhero" hasn't (that I have seen) been defined at all, yet; nor differentiated from an "ordinary" Hero.
I might suspect that they can accept POW sac, and grant Special Rune Magic, and step into the Godtime at-will (without ritual preparation).

[hipsterinspace]

2 hours ago, g33k said:

A "Superhero" hasn't (that I have seen) been defined at all, yet; nor differentiated from an "ordinary" Hero.
I might suspect that they can accept POW sac, and grant Special Rune Magic, and step into the Godtime at-will (without ritual preparation).

Superhero, from what has been said before, is broadly synonymous with demigod: ageless, undying, powerful beyond mortal reckoning. Jar-eel has her heart ripped out by Harrek and returns seemingly without much trouble. On the other hand, many “regular” heroes are the source for special rune magic, venerated based on the deed of their god that they discovered and reenacted through heroquesting. A good example is Garundyer, a powerful Orlanthi heroquester from Ralios. He is not a demigod, but he is a very powerful hero who discovered Siglolf Cloudcrusher in the other world and his boon of Hailstones. He brought that boon back, which allowed other Orlanth cultists to sacrifice to his hero cult for the spell. In time his Cloudcrusher aspect has grown notable enough that it is said to form its own subcult of Orlanth in Ralios.

Edited April 6, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[John Biles]

My understanding is that there is one Superhero per Rune, while Heroes are tied to cults.

Cragapider is the Superheroine of the Darkness Rune, Jar-Eel of the Harmony rune, Harrek of the Death rune, and so on.  Given his Draconic links, Argath arguably becomes Superhero of the Dragon Rune. 

A Superhero could basically solo a tribal army and a Hero a clan's warband.

(Six Seasons in Sartar and its sequels use a system for mass combat where each army is represented with the same kind of stats as a normal character, so you can use the normal fight rules, but Siz related to how many people, and so on.  Superheroes can fight at the mass combat level with their normal stats.)

[jajagappa]

9 hours ago, Soccercalle said:

But sometimes I wonder when does someone becomes a hero. It can't just be that you are a hero quester. Many rune lords has made at least one "otherworld" heroquest. 

We've seen snippets in various posts from Jeff over the last few years (as @Richard S. linked you can start with that and also explore other links under the reference of "heroquesting"). If you go back and watch some of the White Bull campaign episodes (the later ones in Season 1 if I recall are among the most useful) you'll see bits of this in action too.

A couple key concepts to becoming a Hero seem to be:

1) you need to establish a connection to the God World (just as you do with the gods). The "currency" for that is Hero Points, which seem to be sacrifices of POW when on a heroquest/in the Otherworld. As you increase the number of Hero Points you have, your connection to the Otherworld grows.

2) you need people to worship you. While you can gain cool abilities/magic from your quests into the Otherworld, it's only when there are folk who Worship YOU, and sacrifice Magic Points to you, that you begin to become an actual Hero. 

The Mastery Rune may be part of this - but there has not yet been enough information shared by Jeff on how this comes into play or how it is gained. We still need to wait for the GM Guide for this.

The Infinity Rune means you've become a God or a Dragon, not just a Hero. Presumably this is a continuation of the above process, but you may be partially in the Otherworld permanently at that point.

[French Desperate WindChild]

as other, at least the hero soul in the other world, and some kind of worship

 

then is there a big difference between hero, super hero, demi god, god ? not sure

 

of course some are more powerful than other but does that mean they have some new characteristic ?

for example, in the white bull campaign, Jeff called a nymph goddess. That's fine for me: she is worshipped, she has big powers and that's all.

And from a malkioni perspective it is exactly that, there is only one "true" god, the invisible one.

 

In my opinion it is more a question of cult / access (or from a game design perspective :  runepool )

when people worship you, are some of them initiate of you only or of another god ?

If I must be a Yelm initiate to worship you, well your not a god but an hero

If I can find your temple, and, being initiate, have access only to your magic, hey you maybe a god !

 

the death may be an other criteria :

once you are dead (if you are; or if you prefer once you are not anymore in the mundane world), how can I contact you ?

if it is only by the cult of ancestor or some cults of death like Ty Kora Tek, well, runelord or not, you are just one guy among a lot

If I can join you from another cult, you are probably a hero

[Joerg]

Heroes and the majority of demigods are of the same power level. Ironhoof and the Red Emperor are both, as is the Dwarf. The Twins are recurring mortal heroes, apparently similar to Jaldon, bound to be reborn.

Superheroes have some additional power that puts them onto the same stage as the four True Dragons of Dragon Pass. Imagine a Glorantha where Jar-eel had confronted the Brown Dragon at the temple dedication ceremony, allowing it to go through or to be repeated after Tatius was eaten. Sure, she would have been absent for the appearance of Dranz Goloi... They also are immune to ordinary spirit magic, which is fairly easy to understand in Harrek's case where that undead Great Bear Spirit hovers wherever Harrek roams in its fur.

The older writings make a distinction between heroquesters (such as Kallyr, Minaryth Purple, Hofstaring, Gringle), Heroes, and Superheroes.

Demigods include Kallyr's son by Pole Star, and possibly Morag from the Biturian Varosh stories. They have an innate potential that they can aim to unlock as heroquesters.

Capital H Heroes receive some form of "worship". Whether that is community support for heroquesting or actual sacrificial services in their name is another question. In the latter case, there would be wyters involved, possibly carried by the capital H Hero rather than kept by the worshipers.

Harrek appears to receive propitiatory worship. Jar-eel receives genuine worship in her own right as a supermodel and songstress.

[radmonger]

Note that the RQ:G stats for ironhoof (in smoking ruins are impressive (140% weapon skill, 9 pts armor, 3d6 damage bonus), but not in any way off-the-charts in terms of PC power. I think that represents a deliberate change from both earlier version of RQ and also heroquest/wars.

With his own personal retinue of 20 to 40 centaurs, he could charge the flank of any regular military unit of 500, and likely  rout it. But he is not going to be comic-book style personally killing armies, regardless of tactics and numbers.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Darth-Vader-so-feared

 

[g33k]

8 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Note that the RQ:G stats for ironhoof (in smoking ruins are impressive (140% weapon skill, 9 pts armor, 3d6 damage bonus), but not in any way off-the-charts in terms of PC power. I think that represents a deliberate change from both earlier version of RQ and also heroquest/wars.

With his own personal retinue of 20 to 40 centaurs, he could charge the flank of any regular military unit of 500, and likely  rout it. But he is not going to be comic-book style personally killing armies, regardless of tactics and numbers.

https://www.quora.com/Why-is-Darth-Vader-so-feared

"comic-book style" doesn't really fit in Glorantha.
Even when Jar-Eel & Harrek take the field, they kill enemies (with their melee weapons) just 1-2 at a time.

But when we add in the magic, they all get a lot more OP'ed.

Edited April 11, 2023 by g33k

[Shiningbrow]

On 4/12/2023 at 7:09 AM, g33k said:

"comic-book style" doesn't really fit in Glorantha.
Even when Jar-Eel & Harrek take the field, they kill enemies (with their melee weapons) just 1-2 at a time.

This is one reason I don't like the SR system, but prefer Combat Actions. Using CAs, Harrek & Jar-Eel can take out multiple enemies at a time - 6+ per MR. That's heroic!

(ETA - yes, I realise I'm crossing forums here, but... the reason they can only kill 1-2 at a time is merely range and hands.... if you've only got 2 hands, then you're pretty much limited to 2 kills at a time - one by each hand!)

Edited April 15, 2023 by Shiningbrow

[g33k]

10 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

This is one reason I don't like the SR system, but prefer Combat Actions. Using CAs, Harrek & Jar-Eel can take out multiple enemies at a time - 6+ per MR. That's heroic!

(ETA - yes, I realise I'm crossing forums here, but... the reason they can only kill 1-2 at a time is merely range and hands.... if you've only got 2 hands, then you're pretty much limited to 2 kills at a time - one by each hand!)

I hope (and expect) that the Heroquesting rules, when we finally get them, will make it clear that Heroes &c *DO* have such abilities to hand.

I'm actually not a fan of simply scaling "ordinary folks" mechanics incrementally upwards further and further until you get to the heroic/superheroic scales.  One of the features of those abilities, to me, is that they have a complete disconnect, a "no way to get there from where we are here" effect.

Sure... extra attacks per round, not simply from the "splitting attacks over 100%" rule?  AP's & CA's *do* do that, but it's only one way.

Maybe you can heroform your deity, who sometimes has 6 arms... Maybe you hit with such excessive power, you rip through one target and strike another.  Maybe you simply have an extra action per round.  Etc etc etc.

As always, YGMV

[Gray Mouser]

46 minutes ago, g33k said:

I hope (and expect) that the Heroquesting rules, when we finally get them, will make it clear that Heroes &c *DO* have such abilities to hand.

I'm actually not a fan of simply scaling "ordinary folks" mechanics incrementally upwards further and further until you get to the heroic/superheroic scales.  One of the features of those abilities, to me, is that they have a complete disconnect, a "no way to get there from where we are here" effect.

Sure... extra attacks per round, not simply from the "splitting attacks over 100%" rule?  AP's & CA's *do* do that, but it's only one way.

Maybe you can heroform your deity, who sometimes has 6 arms... Maybe you hit with such excessive power, you rip through one target and strike another.  Maybe you simply have an extra action per round.  Etc etc etc.

As always, YGMV

Company of the dragon (Jonstown Compendium) has (simple and elegant) rules to manage heroes/superheroes. 

[g33k]

21 hours ago, Gray Mouser said:

Company of the dragon (Jonstown Compendium) has (simple and elegant) rules to manage heroes/superheroes. 

I believe that the author, ALM, is involved (in some capacity) with Chaosium in producing their official hq'ing rules... over on FB, Jeff Richard namedropped him in that context.

It may be as minor as playtesting the rules Jeff has written, or it may be more substantive (the details weren't clear to me from the context).

[Harry the Dirty Dog]

My personal theory is that Hero and Superhero ties in with the three types of heroquesting. 

1) You bring the Heroplane to you.  This is the "people in costumes act out the myth" version.  It looks and feels real to the participants.  This is the safest version

2) You travel to the heroplane as an incarnation (or perhaps avatar) of your god.  This is significantly more dangerous. 

3) You travel to the heroplan as yourself.  No avatars, no incarnation, just you versus the heroplane.  This is the insanely dangerous version.

From there, a Hero is someone who has used option 2 to discover something new on the Heroplane.  They have carved out a new myth in the name of their god.  They have discovered a new story about their god, brought that back and taught it to others.  They have a presence on the heroplane and have activated their hero soul.  This is the essence of the Mastery rune.  Not sure exactly how that works in game terms. 

A Superhero is someone who has used option 3 to create something new on the Heroplane.  They have carved out a myth in their own name.  They have created a new story on the heroplane as themselves.  Using option 3 above, they have created something new.  No idea how that ties in with the Infinity rune or how it ties in with Sandy's point about there being one SuperHero per Rune.  Presumably, the only way to create something new is via Runes and the act of creation ties you to that Rune.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Harry the Dirty Dog

[DrGoth]

8 hours ago, Harry the Dirty Dog said:

A Superhero is someone who has used option 3 to create something new on the Heroplane.

Wouldn't that make the God Learners superheroes?  I find that doubtful.

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

6 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Wouldn't that make the God Learners superheroes?  I find that doubtful.

The Godlearners as a collective had powers beyond that of any superhero.

[Harry the Dirty Dog]

13 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Wouldn't that make the God Learners superheroes?  I find that doubtful.

I have a suspicion that there are many different paths to god-like powers.   

From my point of view, Argrath, for example, didn't just take the Hero/Superhero path I mentioned above.  He has access to a bunch of draconic magic that doesn't fit the mould.

Similarly, I think the God Learners took a different path.  Some of the outcomes may have been the same, but that doesn't mean they took the same path

[davecake]

On 4/7/2023 at 6:41 AM, John Biles said:

Cragapider is the Superheroine of the Darkness Rune, Jar-Eel of the Harmony rune, Harrek of the Death rune, and so on.  Given his Draconic links, Argath arguably becomes Superhero of the Dragon Rune. 

The idea that a superhero corresponds to a Rune is one that Sandy has mentioned a few times, but it isn’t canon, and I don’t believe it myself, and there isn’t that much evidence for it. Jar-Eel, for example, is as much known for violent deeds and military conquests as ones embodying Harmony - its hard to justify killing Belintar or leading the assault on Boldhome as harmonious. And other known Superheroes (Arkat, Androgeus, Sheng Seleris) end up getting assigned fairly arbitrary Runes. 
 

And Cragspider isn’t a Superhero, and is notable far more for her Fire powers. 

On 4/17/2023 at 9:41 AM, Harry the Dirty Dog said:

A Superhero is someone who has used option 3 to create something new on the Heroplane.  They have carved out a myth in their own name.  They have created a new story on the heroplane as themselves. 

Again, while it’s a cool idea, it doesn’t seem to fit all of even the small number of Superheroes we know about - Jar-Eel has been an incarnation of the Red Goddess since birth, or at least childhood, and it’s hard to think of any notable myths that she has created independent of being an avatar of the goddess. 
 

I do think Heroes and Superheroes power levels always represent not just themselves but their close companions, magic allies, web of supporters, etc. 
 

I don’t think it’s defining, but one thing I do think is true of all Superheroes but not all Heroes - they are capable (either directly, or via their close companions or magic allies ) of heroic level feats dealing with all four forms of magic/all four other worlds,  including being Illuminated and having significant mystic ability, though not necessarily by the conventional method. They have no magical ‘weak points’, are able to deal with dragons etc in part using mystic means, and need not acknowledge the gods as their superiors. 

(yes, I know Harrek doesn’t come across as an Illuminate or mystic, but he did spent enough time in the Lunar Empire and learning to deal with Lunar Magic that he was able to kill the Emperor, and he then proceeds to kill his own deity, which seems a very Illuminated act. He has sorcerous capabilities through his companions (including Gunda) and through looting several great sorcerous treasure troves, though it seems unlikely he is a sorcerer himself (and Western heroes tend to be talars/men-of-all more than zzaburi anyway - heroic sorcerous magical feats need not mean being a great sorcerer, but dealing with the sorcerous otherworld effectively). With Jar-Eel and Arkat, it is pretty much canon that they are able to deal with a very wide range of types of magic, I can’t think of other Superheroes we know about their career in that much detail)

[hipsterinspace]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Again, while it’s a cool idea, it doesn’t seem to fit all of even the small number of Superheroes we know about - Jar-Eel has been an incarnation of the Red Goddess since birth, or at least childhood, and it’s hard to think of any notable myths that she has created independent of being an avatar of the goddess. 

Yeah, I think every superhero seems to be defined by being almost inseparable from the divine persona they’re identified with. Jar-eel is the Red Goddess. Harrek is the White Bear. Androgeus seems like a special case because they actually used to be a god way back when. Arkat, as maybe the most powerful heroquester of all time, seems to defy this on some level, but some of that might be wrapped up in the being Brithini, in being the avatar of two other gods, or in being born as the shadow of Nysalor. Harder to say with the Seven Mothers, they fully apotheosized after reassembling the moon, but certainly most of them were also prolific heroquesters given their accomplishments.

1 hour ago, davecake said:

I don’t think it’s defining, but one thing I do think is true of all Superheroes but not all Heroes - they are capable (either directly, or via their close companions or magic allies ) of heroic level feats dealing with all four forms of magic/all four other worlds,  including being Illuminated and having significant mystic ability, though not necessarily by the conventional method. They have no magical ‘weak points’, are able to deal with dragons etc in part using mystic means, and need not acknowledge the gods as their superiors. 

I would agree that many heroes and all superheroes are illuminated: heroquest to enough strange places and things probably start to move in that direction, especially with the dangerous, experimental kind that Jar-eel and Harrek are both said to be very adept at. I don’t know whether that would be the source of their immunity to most magic, I’d think it’s more that they exist so fully on the other side that most magic doesn’t really touch them, but it certainly helps with navigating otherwise fraught mythic relationships to find new powers.

Harrek is also mentioned as being a self-initiated shaman, which is terrifying, doubly so when his fetch is probably his god who he slew and bound (Argrath did something similar with the White Bull). Jar-eel, on the other hand, has her own Glowspot, something shared with the Silver Shadow of the Red Goddess and the Crimson Bat, making her both a powerful magician in her own right and greatly increasing the power of all Lunar magic in her presence. I wouldn’t think either one of them are sorcerers, though Arkat was, and if anyone had mastered all forms of magic it was probably him in his final form, if not as an illuminated mistress race troll (who are said to have sorcerer-shaman-priestesses among their number).

[Jeff]

I'll muddy this up a little bit. The best definition of a Gloranthan superhero is:
 

Quote

 

The Superheroes of Dragon Pass are personages whose presence fills the needs of many divergent societies. Heroes tend to be more local in character, while the Superheroes are cross-cultural. The presence and clash of these individuals during the Hero Wars period in Dragon Pass indicates that there was a very great need and an insurmountable psychic strain in the cosmos at that time which necessitated the birth of these individuals.

Whatever the case may be with cosmic mentalities, the reality of the Superheroes’ presence in the physical world is immense. Their magic factors are immense, for they are the perfections of the minds of their followers: of all who have feared or loved them, from near or afar. They are avatars, personifications of a million dreams, the hopes of all the futures rolled into one body. As such, they are immortal, whatever their physical states might be.

 

So Argrath is a hero to the Orlanthi and Praxians, the Red Emperor is a hero to the Lunars, Jaldon to the Praxians, and so on. But Harrek, Jar-eel, and Androgeus are feared throughout the world. They are the personification of a million dreams (or nightmares) rolled Ito one body. 

Now in at least one ending of the Hero Wars, Argrath becomes a superhero in the end and has his apotheosis. But the Argrath of 1655 is not the Argrath of 1625 or even 1645.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I'll muddy this up a little bit. The best definition of a Gloranthan superhero is:
 

So Argrath is a hero to the Orlanthi and Praxians, the Red Emperor is a hero to the Lunars, Jaldon to the Praxians, and so on. But Harrek, Jar-eel, and Androgeus are feared and loved throughout the world. They are the personification of a million dreams (or nightmares) rolled Ito one body. 

Now in at least one ending of the Hero Wars, Argrath becomes a superhero in the end and has his apotheosis. But the Argrath of 1655 is not the Argrath of 1625 or even 1645.

My short list of Gloranthan superheroes are basically: Androgeus, Arkat, Harrek, Jar-eel, and Yanafal Tarnils.

A good argument can be made that Errinoru was a superhero as well. 

However, in general I use the term hero for both heroes and superheroes because the latter term always conjures up images of people in spandex and capes.

Edited April 18, 2023 by Jeff

[dumuzid]

47 minutes ago, Jeff said:

My short list of Gloranthan superheroes are basically: Androgeus, Arkat, Harrek, Jar-eel, and Yanafal Tarnils.

A good argument can be made that Errinoru was a superhero as well. 

Are there particular reasons Sheng Seleris and Garangordos missed the cut?

[Qizilbashwoman]

5 minutes ago, dumuzid said:

Are there particular reasons Sheng Seleris and Garangordos missed the cut?

or, uh, Belintar

[Richard S.]

I think Belintar at least skipped straight from hero to god.