Dragon cult write ups.

[Murf]

One of our players is intrested in learning Dragon magic

So after DragonRise Draconic magic is begining to reemerge. Are there any newly reawakened Dragon cults players can join?

In Joel Kumpulainen's enjoyable  "Night In the Medows" from Jonsstown press he gave the players the chance to join the "Cult of the Inner Dragon."  except that sacrificing a point of POW gave you the ablity to learn Auld Wrymish beyond 25%. However he gave few details.

In "White Stone Ruins" by Paul Baker He gives us the "Cult of the Storm Dragon" with some interesting ideas.

Does anyone else have any cults or ideas on how develop one? Are their any Dragon cults in RQG cannon?  

 

[soltakss]

Draconic Cults became incredibly unpopular after the Dragonkill, for some reason, at least outside Kralorela.

In my Glorantha, some went underground, kept alive by a few secret cultists. Others have reawakened following the resurgence of Draconic energies post-Dragonrise. Again in my Glorantha the Boatrise meant that a True Dragonship awakened and rose to the Heavens, which also increased the Draconic energies prior to the Dragonrise. Some people have contacted long-lost Orlanthi Heroes who were friends of dragons and their cults might have Draconis insights. https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Category:Imperial_Age_Dragon_Pass_Heroes might have some ideas of Heroes from that period.

Again, in my Glorantha, the Storm Dragon has a band of effective mystical Air/Storm Runs Ninja mystics who act as assassins against enemies of the Storm. In RQG terms, they would probably use the mystical martial arts of the East Isles supplements and have ties to the Air Rune.

[Richard S.]

RQ2's Sun Dragon is the only canon dragon cult we have currently, unless you count Kralorela's Path of Immanent Mastery from RQ3. I wrote up some ideas for EWF hero cults a while back, in the blog section of the forum, but stuff like that probably won't be around in the 3rd age since their patrons are long gone. I feel that most dragon magic in the late 3rd age is going to come from outside the context of a cult, either one-off gifts from dragons or inherent powers like what the dragonewts have, probably gained from heroquesting.

Kralorela has kept some tradition of real draconic mysticism, but a) players can't really be mystics and b) we've got no clue how mysticism works yet.

[Nick Brooke]

The Company of the Dragon is about joining a draconic cult.

[Murf]

4 hours ago, Richard S. said:

RQ2's Sun Dragon is the only canon dragon cult we have currently, unless you count Kralorela's Path of Immanent Mastery from RQ3. I wrote up some ideas for EWF hero cults a while back, in the blog section of the forum, but stuff like that probably won't be around in the 3rd age since their patrons are long gone. I feel that most dragon magic in the late 3rd age is going to come from outside the context of a cult, either one-off gifts from dragons or inherent powers like what the dragonewts have, probably gained from heroquesting.

Kralorela has kept some tradition of real draconic mysticism, but a) players can't really be mystics and b) we've got no clue how mysticism works yet.

One off gifts sounds interesting.

Ian Thompson's new book "Pavis: City that Time Forgot" had some Draconic gifts that people inherited from witnessing The Dragonewts Dream. We were thinking about making that the basis for a cult or more accuratly a school of thought for the Inner Dragon Cult. It would be less about transfoming into a Dragon and more about harnessing your inner power. 

There is also RQM's 2nd age EFW Dragon cults but that just doesn't feel quite right for the 3rd age.

 

[Murf]

1 hour ago, Nick Brooke said:

The Company of the Dragon is about joining a draconic cult.

Sounds like a buy.

[g33k]

On 4/22/2023 at 12:23 PM, Murf said:

Sounds like a buy.

That's part of a series, FYI.

1st volume "Six Seasons in Sartar" ... absolutely  glowing  reviews!
A great campaign, starts with kids, runs adulthood rituals, etc.

[Marek]

In my own campaign, heroquests have been the primary vehicle for players to discover and acquire Draconic magic. And now that they have learned some they are in the process of setting up their own means of worship to replenish their abilities in the mundane world. Secretly, of course, given current attitudes towards this sort of thing.

I have always loved the idea of "dream" dragons and what that implies. Whilst running through The Dragon of Thunder Hills, the players came face to face with such a creature and it has become a much bigger part of the campaign than I expected. In one memorable session they entered the "dream" to find the "dreamer", effectively embarking on a heroquest that led them face to face with a creature beyond mortal comprehension.

- Merrick

[Akhôrahil]

Lots in the Mongoose publications, although these aren't canon (in many cases probably not even existing in the Third Age).

Edited April 24, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, Marek said:

In my own campaign, heroquests have been the primary vehicle for players to discover and acquire Draconic magic. And now that they have learned some they are in the process of setting up their own means of worship to replenish their abilities in the mundane world. Secretly, of course, given current attitudes towards this sort of thing.

I have always loved the idea of "dream" dragons and what that implies. Whilst running through The Dragon of Thunder Hills, the players came face to face with such a creature and it has become a much bigger part of the campaign than I expected. In one memorable session they entered the "dream" to find the "dreamer", effectively embarking on a heroquest that led them face to face with a creature beyond mortal comprehension.

- Merrick

We've played with "Draconic Stuff" in our RGQ campaign.  At least, some of the PCs.  (A couple of others are following an Arkati path).  A few of us have a decent (~20%) Speak Draconic, and my Vinga Wind Lady has a tiny Dream Dragon "Little Wing" <Insert Jimi Hendrix Guitar Riff Here> as her allied spirit.

However, without any real official material, so far we are punting / ignoring some of the questions, making stuff up, and eagerly awaiting upcoming material on Illumination and so forth.

@Nick Brooke Thanks for the reminder - guess I should get a copy of Company of the Dragon.  Or at least convince our other GM (we alternate GMs) to get a copy, since he'd be "running" that part for my PC and the other interested PC.

Edited April 24, 2023 by Rodney Dangerduck

[French Desperate WindChild]

what kind of gameplay would be the potential "magic" provided by these cults ?

 

something like runespell (= pow sacrifice , then runepool, then spell)

something like dragonewt magic

something else ?

nothing at all ? you are not a dragon after all

[metcalph]

Basically the magics of the dragonewts (and perhaps Wyrms) as most recently seen on the Bestiary.  Humans will probably use rune points to cast them as they are not dragonewts.  Their dragon magic will be inferior because of this (no casting on SR 1, limited by rune pool etc).  I think there are alternate paths based on Shamanism (ie Daruda) and Sorcery but I'm already getting too speculative as is. 

 

[Murf]

A further questions about Dragon Cults:

Would there be Rune levels along with standard benifits such as Allied Sprites, increased chance for POW gain by priests, common rune spells (particularly spell teaching.) and devin intervention? 

[jajagappa]

13 minutes ago, Murf said:

Would there be Rune levels along with standard benifits such as Allied Sprites, increased chance for POW gain by priests, common rune spells (particularly spell teaching.) and devin intervention? 

Generally, I would expect not. (E.g. read the section in RuneQuest Bestiary on the dragonewts - as they spiritually progress they can command a broader array of dragon magic). 

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Murf said:

A further questions about Dragon Cults:

Would there be Rune levels along with standard benifits such as Allied Sprites, increased chance for POW gain by priests, common rune spells (particularly spell teaching.) and devin intervention? 

In RQ3 Gods of Glorantha, the Cults of Immanent Mastery and Godunya did have Rune Levels with access to reusable rune magic.  But they aren't conventional rune cults and so wouldn't have all the conventional benefits (neither cult had common rune spells, allied spirits, increased POW gain etc in the shortform writeup).

[French Desperate WindChild]

In my opinion that is totally different 

no allied spirit (because there are no spirits -well I think or maybe human cultists who… failed so are they allied spirits or cursed spirits-) but you may gain a dragonewt or a lower kin (little wyrm , etc …)

No divine intervention, there are no gods but you may be allowed to « speak » with some dragon or powerful dragonewt (inhuman king etc…)

do they have rune spells ? That is the question. There are two options

1) human are able to use dragonewt magic in that case no rune spell because it means the draconic magic is the dragonewt magic (bestiary) for all species

2) the opposite : dragonewt magic is for dragonewt only. Other species can’t use it. It means then that rune spell(game design definition) is the way for human (or other man rune species) that doesn’t mean they have the same gloranthan mechanic but from rules you must sacrifice pow, create rune pool , use it, replenish it (by meditatio ?) when dragonewt can do magic without it (but the price is different)

pow gain ? Yes maybe. But is it because you succeed a worship ceremony , I m note sure. Maybe something different.

 

For me that one of the three rules I expect in dragon pass rune quest game: draconic way for human rules, heroquest rules then (less important for me) sorcery (with back ground not only rules)

[Cassius]

On 4/22/2023 at 4:04 PM, Murf said:

In Joel Kumpulainen's enjoyable  "Night In the Medows" from Jonsstown press he gave the players the chance to join the "Cult of the Inner Dragon."  except that sacrificing a point of POW gave you the ablity to learn Auld Wrymish beyond 25%.

I don't know if it's still valid, but it seemed to me that, in EWF days, humans had to undergo tongue surgery to make it bifid in order to speak Auld Wyrmish fluently.

[mfbrandi]

51 minutes ago, Cassius said:

[I]n EWF days, humans had to undergo tongue surgery to make it bifid in order to speak Auld Wyrmish fluently.

Fool that I am, I thought that the split tongue was just a symbol — an outward sign — to mark that the real surgery had been done: cutting through the corpus callosum.

[Zit]

what is the source of dragon magic ? Dragons dreams ?

[Richard S.]

9 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Fool that I am, I thought that the split tongue was just a symbol — an outward sign — to mark that the real surgery had been done: cutting through the corpus callosum.

I believe mongoose's material required both a split tongue and a split brain to speak Auld Wyrmish fluently, but I don't think any other books have referenced anything other than the split tongue. It definitely seems likely there's some distinct mental and/or spiritual change required, considering that mortals seem to lack the ability to replicate some of the non-auditory elements.

"Their language of Auld Wyrmish includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and empathic components. They are unconscious of their own language and cannot teach it to others. Because humans are not naturally empathic, they can never learn Speak Auld Wyrmish at higher than 25%." RQGB p37

2 hours ago, Zit said:

what is the source of dragon magic ? Dragons dreams ?

I think it comes from the practitioner themselves. As far as we know, Dragonewts don't have to get their magic from another source like a god or spirit (though they might need to learn to control it), they just gain their abilities as part of their evolution. I think mortals might need outside help to awaken the piece of themselves that can do dragon magic, but afterwards it probably progresses similarly to the Dragonewts.

19 hours ago, Murf said:

A further questions about Dragon Cults:

Would there be Rune levels along with standard benifits such as Allied Sprites, increased chance for POW gain by priests, common rune spells (particularly spell teaching.) and devin intervention? 

A rune cult that worships a dragon might have the standard benefits if the proper paths have been set up in the hero plane, and I think some EWF heroes did try and do that, but I doubt it worked exactly the same as regular rune cults. I think most dragon worship is without direct magical benefit, the same as with worship of living heroes like the Red Emperor or Jar-Eel. They might teach their close followers some of their secrets, but those powers come from elsewhere on the hero plane, not from the hero themselves.

17 hours ago, metcalph said:

In RQ3 Gods of Glorantha, the Cults of Immanent Mastery and Godunya did have Rune Levels with access to reusable rune magic.  But they aren't conventional rune cults and so wouldn't have all the conventional benefits (neither cult had common rune spells, allied spirits, increased POW gain etc in the shortform writeup).

I think the path of immanent mastery is closer to a Hykimi cult than a dragon one, and most stuff points towards it being very deeply flawed compared to actual dragon magic. Godunya is a true dragon but I don't think he's indicative of a "standard" dragon cult, if such a thing exists.

13 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

do they have rune spells ? That is the question. There are two options

1) human are able to use dragonewt magic in that case no rune spell because it means the draconic magic is the dragonewt magic (bestiary) for all species

2) the opposite : dragonewt magic is for dragonewt only. Other species can’t use it. It means then that rune spell(game design definition) is the way for human (or other man rune species) that doesn’t mean they have the same gloranthan mechanic but from rules you must sacrifice pow, create rune pool , use it, replenish it (by meditatio ?) when dragonewt can do magic without it (but the price is different)

I think humans can learn the same dragon magic that dragonewts use, based on what's been posted about EWF magic on the well of daliath, but those who knew it and could teach it was limited mostly to the third council and their students. There are some examples of rune spells that mimic dragon powers, such as those used by the path of immanent mastery, but those are called out pretty clearly as not being actual dragon magic.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

36 minutes ago, Richard S. said:

I believe mongoose's material required both a split tongue and a split brain to speak Auld Wyrmish fluently, but I don't think any other books have referenced anything other than the split tongue.

I wonder if that 25% limit is just for speaking, or also for listening comprehension.  For example, my ability to understand French, even though not that high, is much better than my ability to speak it.

[metcalph]

4 hours ago, Zit said:

what is the source of dragon magic ? Dragons dreams ?

The Dragon that the magician will become, transcending Time and Space. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I wonder if that 25% limit is just for speaking, or also for listening comprehension.  For example, my ability to understand French, even though not that high, is much better than my ability to speak it.

in my opinion yes but not like your french or my english 😛

I mean, you use the "listening" word but I would use "understanding" :

 

Quote

Their language of Auld Wyrmish includes visual, auditory, olfactory, and empathic components.

 

visual : human beings (or other) can't change the color of their scales (or even skin) but can see it (at least a part of the spectrum). So they can understand more than they can express (not sure of the word subtilities: I mean ability to give to other idea by any means, not only voice)

auditory: human can hear but maybe not all the spectrum. So they can understand more than they can express

even harder olfactory, except with french cheese (I love them !), it is hard to offer a large range of odors for human, so they can und....

and empathic should be impossible or for those who are alreay illuminates (from a draconic perspective). That may be something like insight species, but dragonkin are so different (even runes !) so very hard

and there is another difficulty:

Quote

They are unconscious of their own language and cannot teach it to others

so at the end of the day, I would say you can speak at 25% max, and you can understand at 50% max (or 40 or ...)

[Cassius]

This distinction between speaking and listening is not specific, it could be made for all languages a character learns. The skill percentage simulates both abilities roughly.

[JRE]

In my experience (fluent in three languages, struggling in a couple more) people underestimate their ability to communicate by speech, and overestimate their understanding in listening and reading. So usually one number is good to have some communication. 

I consider the 25% is for unmodified humans. Modified humans may go higher, depending on how advanced they are in the dragon path. But humans tend to confuse the map (the language) with the territory. You do not need Auld Wyrmish to use Dragon magic, but it helps. At the same time, it misleads you, as magic learnt from language is not draconic. As you codify the magic, you lose sight of the true objective, which is harmonically growing the dragon soul.

The human will usually believe they have learnt some spell or technique, when they actually could naturally use all of them, if they were at the right soul development stage.

But the Dragonewt progression is failed, and that is why there are still so many dragonewts around, because the progression itself is a lie.

Dragons trascend time, so if you are to be a dragon, you are always a Dragon. No defined path, no gradual improvement. You are, and what you have to do is discover what you can do. That is also why most of the EWF failed, because they were following a failed model.