Taxes in Orlanthi society

[Jose-san]

I'm curious about how people manage taxes in their campaigns.

Initiates are supposed to pay 10% of their income to their temple. What's "income"? Their basic professional or household income and anything made on the side as well, like loot from adventures? How do you manage this?

Quote

RG p407

The basic “tax” in most Gloranthan societies is the temple tithe, most notably the 20% of the harvest that goes to the local temples of Ernalda and her husband

Do you take this into account? Does it affect PC in any way?

What other taxes exist in Orlanthi society, do clans, tribes and/or cities collect taxes in any way? If so how and how much?

 

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Jose-san said:

I'm curious about how people manage taxes in their campaigns.

Initiates are supposed to pay 10% of their income to their temple. What's "income"?

It's all calculated in the Sacred time phase, starting page 420. it's basically 

Adventurer income is calculated from the Occupational Income table x Harvest modifier (if appropriate) - penalties (if appropriate) - cult tithes - Standard of living.

1 hour ago, Jose-san said:

Their basic professional or household income and anything made on the side as well, like loot from adventures? How do you manage this?

In the Q&A See:

• 5.1 Sacred Time Example
• 8.6 Does Occupational Income include Plunder?

[Joerg]

7 minutes ago, Jose-san said:

I'm curious about how people manage taxes in their campaigns.

Initiates are supposed to pay 10% of their income to their temple. What's "income"? Their basic professional or household income and anything made on the side as well, like loot from adventures? How do you manage this?

Do you take this into account? Does it affect PC in any way?

What other taxes exist in Orlanthi society, do clans, tribes and/or cities collect taxes in any way? If so how and how much?

Thanks to @David Scott for pointing to the official guidelines.

 

TLDR: I am blathering about how we players and GMs may relate to the difference the Bronze Age-ish setting works, and how to make these activities relate to our real world experience.

 

In my Glorantha, the clan (and its earth and storm cult, and above it the tribe and the city confederation) have a direct involvement in the agricultural primary production (grain, cash crops like linen or apples, dairy, meat), and the harvest is a collective effort under the auspices of the local temples and officials. Apportioning the hides and recognizing the surplus beyond returning the seed stock (which will have come from the clan granary) as "individual" hide manager effort is the tricky bit to decide what is household income.

What is a household in Sartar? RQG makes it look like the adventurer's activities decide over the financial fate of the extended family they belong to in the name of player agency. Sure, the player gets to make the end-of-year rolls depending on the player character skills, the rules offer a result for annual income and the consequences of not having met the requirements. Wealth generated from non-adventuring activities seems to be seen as contraproductive to game enjoyment.

 

In actual play, material adventure rewards can (and occasionally do) outdo annual income rewards by a magnitude or two. At the same time, annual household income from a single hide is in no way sufficient to afford a season of training or a new point of spirit magic once every two years for a single character, and there may be more than one player character to a single household. The designers seem to believe in an austere scarcity regime when it comes to means available to develop a character by anything other than adventure rewards.

 

The question then is how to tax adventure rewards. And that is where playing in a Bronze Age-ish setting hits us with a series of hammers.

If you play a "culturally correct" game, the designated leader during an adventure gets to decide the distribution of all rewards accumulated in the course of the adventure. Regardless who overcame that foe or who might want to claim dibs on a find, Bronze Age culture puts all the rewards in the hands of the designated leader, who in turn is obliged to bring all of this before the quest giver. Typically, the quest giver is an official of one of these tax-taking institutions - in the GM Screen adventure book, the quest giver is ultimately Queen Kallyr or one of her officials, in the Starter Set, the adventurers are brought before the City Rex or his officials and get their quest from them. In theory, one of the adventurers becomes the quest leader responsible to present all the spoils of the endeavor (minus consumables used up in the fulfilment of the quest) to the quest giver, who takes it and then doles out rewards to the party leader and possibly individuals with special achievement. The party leader distributes the rewards to the party according to rules of leadership similar to the shares distributed by a pirate crew, typically receiving a double individual share and a bad time reserve share he (or a temple) keeps for maintenance or weregeld payments, and the other party members receive their share.

If this process means that the party has given the entire amount of the loot to the quest giver, then the amount the quest giver returns to the party leader and possibly individual party members would be "taxes paid" but not individual cult tithes paid. But then, equipment upgrades aren't exactly taxable, while ostentation upgrades (i.e. material wealth that can be traded or just presented to underline one's status) might be. A player adventurer receiving something as reward from their own cult would not be tithed for that boon. Receiving a reward from a different cult or a different leader might make the leaders in their cult or clan listen up for their organisation's share in that, and at least build up an expectation to receive something which may affect their generosity when dealing out stuff from their coffers in the annual distribution of economic assets.

That's because "property" is mainly owned by the institutions, not individuals. The household is such an institution, with property assigned to it by the clan and/or temples, which in turn may have been assigned property by superior temples or by the tribe, or the city confederation, or the confederation, in all cases through the leaders of those institutions or officials acting in their name.

 

I guess hardly any game follows this culturally correct procedure. Practically all us players and GMs are part of a capitalist society that recognizes individual property and institutional property in the capitalist sense, and few of us will have any practical experience with taking adventure missions (although some of us may have experienced taking on military missions or development or investigative contracts). Few of us will be familiar with collectively owned assets or collective income outside of the tax revenue of (usually emotionally distant) institutions. Perhaps the closest to the adventuring activity of our player characters is service in volunteer militias (like e.g. volunteer fire brigades in rural areas, or technical aid services in disaster relief like provided by the German THW or some cases of National Guard mobilisations), or reservists recalled to active miltary duty. Or maybe volunteer participation in archaeologocial digs.

When framed in such terms, the quests aren't expected to finance our lives. We might get a tax-deductible or in rare occasion a tax-exemted material reward for our participation. We might get an advanced rank in such volunteer organisations or in our professional careers from such activities, but we might also see our professional careers falter or be damaged by such extracurricular activity.

 

Our expectation of spoils of adventures has been built by fiction or more approachable historical approaches to looting, like e.g. Henry Morgan's codex for his pirates (which may have been a fiction in his time, too) applied to our real life understanding of modern personal property. We might live in a system that demands property tax from us - more often indirectly unless we are registered as land owners or drive a car, or run a business which has such taxable property. We are used to income tax and social security payments, and taxes on windfalls like inheritance or significant gambling or lottery wins (when run by registered organizers who need to deduct taxes).

Tithing a religious organisation may be familiar to a subset of us, but usually on a much lesser scale, and voluntarily or (over here in Germany) as a small percentage on top of our regular tax payments forwarded to our state-registered creed that has delegated tithe collection to the state. We don't expect to tithe our new car or our new house, or the new roof to our house, to the church. We are rather used to claiming tax deductions from our usual drain of income when doing such investments.

 

Few players would understand their property as that of their household, possibly on loan from their local or national government. "Mine" is what we are used to thinking, rarely "ours", with the "us" rather narrowly defined and rarely extending to non-core family communities. Sure, our local church or club may own a property, which we as members have a certain feeling of "ownership", but that is different from the ownership e.g. for the clothes we wear, unless it is a uniform or security gear provided by our employer required for our work for that employer. We may be used to regard military (or otherwise security) service weapons as property of the employer, but we may also own our personal weapons (for hunting or sports).

Few of us are working in primary production any more (farming, herding, fishing, professional hunting, subsistence farming or gathering)., but many may have a garden on the side or collect mushrooms or berries in the commons during the right seasons, or fish or hunt not just for trophies but for the frying pan on the side. We don't expect to pay taxes for these non-commercial activities even if they may relieve our budgets somewhat, and neither will Gloranthan societies (other than sharing your spoils of such activities with your households when you are in the situation to bring them home). Note that the Gloranthan conception of household usually extends way beyond the notion of flatmate or core family.

 

Perhaps the face-to-face gaming session, maybe with a collective barbecue and the pooling of game snacks and drinks, is the best real life approximation for in-game economy.

 

 

[Jose-san]

That's a lot of food for thought 🙂 Thank you very much!

[svensson]

OK, in an in-world manage-the-economy sense, taxes are usually paid in kind [you owe x amount of produce of y types for z hides of land]. It is very rare that taxes are paid in cash. What's more, even if you did pay your taxes in hard coin, with so many types of coin of so many vintages it is most likely that the coinage is measured by weight instead of purchase value.

In a game mechanics sense, your taxes are paid during the Sacred Time end of the year phase of the game. The 10% of 'income' is income from all sources, including adventuring. Now YGMV on just how much of a stickler the gods are about shorting your religious tithes. Back in the days of RQ2, many PCs would go on a spending spree right before the High Holy Day so that the temple got '10% of what I have on me right now'. The Sacred Time mechanic is intended to average that out a bit and make the adventurers actually pay more of what's owed.

Something else to remember: The cult tithe also INCLUDES two weeks of service to the cult per year. In an agrarian society like the Esrolians or Heortlings [and by extension the Sartarites], NOBODY wants to be polishing statues or standing guard at the temple during planting and harvesting. There is A LOT of hustling going on behind the scenes to avoid doing your cult time during these vital seasons of the year. Oh, and Sacred Time NEVER counts towards your annual cult service. During those two weeks, the whole society is focused on religious duties.

As you can imagine, 10% of annual income and 2 weeks per year adds up quick if you join multiple cults.

[radmonger]

One way to run things that is both reasonably gameable and makes sense in-world is that 'spending' money on training and spells is just a simplified mechanical representation of what actually happens. Which is that you gift treasure to someone significant, and they are impressed and bump you up the priority list for being taught the good stuff. And as you never really owned anything, there is no tax to pay.

Actually paying 10% taxes on received (or gifted) treasure is a implicit claim that you are worthy enough to keep it yourself. Which means you would need to already have 10% of the value of that treasure available to pay. Using a treasure to pay for itself would be seen as fundamentally illegitimate, the kind of thing a Eurmali would be laughed at for trying to get away with.

This makes professional income important as it is the only reasonable way of gaining the starting capital you need to make more.

[Darius West]

11 hours ago, svensson said:

OK, in an in-world manage-the-economy sense, taxes are usually paid in kind [you owe x amount of produce of y types for z hides of land]. It is very rare that taxes are paid in cash. What's more, even if you did pay your taxes in hard coin, with so many types of coin of so many vintages it is most likely that the coinage is measured by weight instead of purchase value.

In a game mechanics sense, your taxes are paid during the Sacred Time end of the year phase of the game. The 10% of 'income' is income from all sources, including adventuring. Now YGMV on just how much of a stickler the gods are about shorting your religious tithes. Back in the days of RQ2, many PCs would go on a spending spree right before the High Holy Day so that the temple got '10% of what I have on me right now'. The Sacred Time mechanic is intended to average that out a bit and make the adventurers actually pay more of what's owed.

Something else to remember: The cult tithe also INCLUDES two weeks of service to the cult per year. In an agrarian society like the Esrolians or Heortlings [and by extension the Sartarites], NOBODY wants to be polishing statues or standing guard at the temple during planting and harvesting. There is A LOT of hustling going on behind the scenes to avoid doing your cult time during these vital seasons of the year. Oh, and Sacred Time NEVER counts towards your annual cult service. During those two weeks, the whole society is focused on religious duties.

As you can imagine, 10% of annual income and 2 weeks per year adds up quick if you join multiple cults.

Taxes and the dodging thereof is an old established rule.

The argument about what constitutes income is one thrashed out yearly by Tax lawyers and every government on the planet to this day.  For every definition there is a disqualification of that definition, or an alternative interpretation of the listed terms, or a logical contradiction, or a breach of precedent, and arguments can come down to the implications of a semi colon in a written act.  There is no reason to suppose that Glorantha is any different.

One good thing however, if you liberate an 18,000L magical treasure from a ruin; that isn't income unless you sell it.

[Manunancy]

On 11/20/2023 at 2:34 AM, Darius West said:

One good thing however, if you liberate an 18,000L magical treasure from a ruin; that isn't income unless you sell it.

Though if you go traipsing around showing it off to any and all, your clan chief or high priest might feel somewhat grumpy about it - up to thinking you're polishing up your heroic credentials in preparation of an attempt to replace him...

[g33k]

On 11/19/2023 at 5:34 PM, Darius West said:

...

One good thing however, if you liberate an 18,000L magical treasure from a ruin; that isn't income unless you sell it.

IMG, it's possible to make the argument that it isn't income, and you may even be able to make that stick, depending on circumstances; but remember that Glorantha is not a modern society with a huge body of tax-law in place (I suspect the Lunar & Kralorelan tax-codes are rather larger & more complex than Sartar's).

"Income" isn't limited to "ready coin..." that's just a convenience & a modern-day referrent.  As @svensson noted:

On 11/19/2023 at 5:59 AM, svensson said:

OK, in an in-world manage-the-economy sense, taxes are usually paid in kind [you owe x amount of produce of y types for z hides of land]. It is very rare that taxes are paid in cash...

I think you probably owe 1800L in taxes (over and above the taxes on whatever you earned and/or liberated the rest of the year).    At the least, your overlord likely thinks so... or at least feels so, and is grumpy about the 1800L-hole in their treasury.   Your adventurer(s) may develop a reputation for being grasping, greedy, selfish.

The Well of Daliath says:

Quote

The occupational income phase is an abstraction of the whole year’s income. While there is room for interpretation, income is income...  If you plunder items relevant to your occupation, that’s also occupational income... A herder acting as a bodyguard on an adventure getting plunder from bandits they fought off, counts as income.

If your "adventurers" are recognized as-such (if they solicit or accept missions or assignments or the like from nobles/merchants/etc; if they don't act as land-owners / crafters / merchants / &c and don't actively pursue that path of earnings; if they use plunder as income (spending liberated funds on cost-of-living expenses (including friends & followers expenses) &c); etc etc etc) then their occupation has become "Adventurer" and they must count 100% of plunder as income... even inconveniently-huge-and-indivisible lumps of income.

 

As always, of course -- YGMV & YGWV.

Edited November 25, 2023 by g33k

[Joerg]

The Bronze Age distribution of spoils goes:

The party leader presents all spoils from a mission to the quest giver, who then gives a "generous" reward to the party as a whole, or to individual party members in recognition of feats.

As such, the 18k L artifact already is in the hands of the quest-giver, and maybe the leader, who then has to think hard about his Orlanthi virtues.

[soltakss]

On 11/19/2023 at 8:13 AM, Jose-san said:

What's "income"? Their basic professional or household income and anything made on the side as well, like loot from adventures? How do you manage this?

Generally, if people have to ask "Is this income?" then it clearly is.

So, anything you gain from loot and so on, even finding long-lost treasure, is income.

On 11/19/2023 at 8:13 AM, Jose-san said:

Initiates are supposed to pay 10% of their income to their temple. What's "income"? Their basic professional or household income and anything made on the side as well, like loot from adventures? How do you manage this?

You pay your dues to the cult. If you don't then you lose your standing in the cult, can't gain new magic or regain Rune Points, and so on, so people generally pay this.

On 11/19/2023 at 8:13 AM, Jose-san said:

Quote

The basic “tax” in most Gloranthan societies is the temple tithe, most notably the 20% of the harvest that goes to the local temples of Ernalda and her husband

Do you take this into account? Does it affect PC in any way?

That is just something that everyone pays when they do the harvest or take animals to the market. Some of the animals are just taken and put into the cult pens.

 

On 11/19/2023 at 8:13 AM, Jose-san said:

What other taxes exist in Orlanthi society, do clans, tribes and/or cities collect taxes in any way? If so how and how much?

For me, when the Lunars raise taxes, or even the Prince of Sartar, they raise taxes on the Clans and Tribes and they use their coffers or collect it in other ways.

Merchants pay taxes, or tolls, to travel roads. Adventurers used to pay taxes to enter Pavis, or they did in our campaign, paying a "Leg Tax" on entry to the City at the Gates.

[Darius West]

11 hours ago, g33k said:

IMG, it's possible to make the argument that it isn't income, and you may even be able to make that stick, depending on circumstances; but remember that Glorantha is not a modern society with a huge body of tax-law in place (I suspect the Lunar & Kralorelan tax-codes are rather larger & more complex than Sartar's).

I strongly recommend that your character hire themselves a properly accredited Lhankor Mhy lawspeaker next time these issues arise.  There are in fact precedents in Orlanthi Tax Law that go back all the way to the Marks on Bark.  If you are dealing with sufficiently large sums, it may well be worth the coin to hire a Tax Professional with enough Customary Practice to find you the loopholes you need.  Of course there are some unsavory operators in this field, as Thanatari have often turned to the worship of the Severed God specifically to gain the legal expertise they need to avoid excessive taxation and get a head in the world. 

[Darius West]

12 hours ago, Manunancy said:

Though if you go traipsing around showing it off to any and all, your clan chief or high priest might feel somewhat grumpy about it - up to thinking you're polishing up your heroic credentials in preparation of an attempt to replace him...

No argument.  Characters who don't properly Loyalty (Clan)/Brown-nose (Chieftain) deserve what they get.

[svensson]

@g33k makes a very salient point in all this when he talks about a herder getting part of the plunder...

There are no 'adventurers' in Glorantha any more than there you can put 'adventurer' in a W2 form [this is the basic annual earnings statement in the US tax code]. In Glorantha, you're a herder/hunter/farmer/whatever that does heroic stuff. Even professional warriors are 'thanes' or 'mercenaries', not 'adventurers'. Remember, the player characters have an adventure once a season and actually have day jobs that earn them their daily bread.

[French Desperate WindChild]

For me there are two things:

a) community

b) as @Joerg said the quest giver and leader issue. I would not add anything about b) it is exactly what I mean, with better words than I could sau

 

but let's focus on a):
 

- community may mean cult (aka the temple society, where priests lead the worship, organize the religious activity of YOUR community, for the benefice of YOUR community)

- community may mean guild (aka the society, where leaders negociate contract, rules, quality expectations, for the benefice of YOUR community)

- community may mean war society (same thing than a guild after all)

- community may mean clan / tribe (ake the ring, court, ... where leaders decide to war or peace, community work, ... for the benefice of YOUR community)

of course there are good and bad leaders, and their decisions may be good or not for your community or for yourself. But as part of YOUR communities you have to contribute, and these contributions are the tithes, and because you contribute you expect to get back it with the benefices provided by YOUR leaders

 

so paying the tith is for me (img) part of the game. More you pay, more you are respected (you help more than others for the common benefit, you may be able to "hire" some of your clansmate to any mission, you may give help in case of accident, if some people are in need... )  or feared (if you are able to pay 1000L evey years, how many mercenaries -magic included- are you able to pay ? , just in case of... )

More you pay, you will obtain more opportunities of mission , greater missions, more gifts from your communities leaders, more attention, more "clients" too

and of course in dice perspective, more bonus have in any communication roll in your community, more reputation (even once you are not able to pay anymore, you were the guy who...)

 

 

 

now... outlaws, wanderers or emigrants (as long as they are not settled) are not part of their previous communities (or of some of their communities)

that doesn't mean they have nothing to "pay", just that could be different than tithes : tax to enter or trade, tributs,  bribes, everything your own community exempt you

and what about heroes ? Some may "stay" in their community for sure. Garundyer is a good example of "community" hero but what about Alakoring ? What could be his community ? what ring ? what temple ? What about the sailor lost in any wild island ?

the issue then, is not about the communities and their services, but more the relationship with your gods. In a temple community tiths "pay" the gods (sacrifice, worship ceremony material, etc...)

If you are not part of any temple you have to manage it, you have to sacrifice directly, you have to worship yourself, alone, without the help of any good standing temple and any skilled and holy priest .

Of course you may join one time another temple, but you may have to "offer" some gift to be welcomed.

No.... tith is the less expensive solution to obtain good service (well, in my glorantha..)

 

 

2 hours ago, svensson said:

@g33k makes a very salient point in all this when he talks about a herder getting part of the plunder...

There are no 'adventurers' in Glorantha any more than there you can put 'adventurer' in a W2 form [this is the basic annual earnings statement in the US tax code]. In Glorantha, you're a herder/hunter/farmer/whatever that does heroic stuff. Even professional warriors are 'thanes' or 'mercenaries', not 'adventurers'. Remember, the player characters have an adventure once a season and actually have day jobs that earn them their daily bread.

that's true IF you expect the income/outcome of your occupation, but you may have campaign or player choice where "being a farmer and casual adventurer" is a non-sense

 

[radmonger]

Someone over on rpgnet did a 'let's read' of the lightbringers book, and they pointed out that a GodTalker of Barntar is paying 50% of their income as cult tithes. But they are the highest authority in the cult; there are no true rune levels, and few elaborate temples. So who are they paying that tithe _to_?

Part of the answer is that presumably the 'cult' of Barntar in Sartar is largely a lie told to the Lunars. Whatever the religious status of Barntar as distinct form Orlatnh, organisationally is was an integrated part of the clan and tribe system.  During the occupation those resources actually went, via that system, to supporting the deer folk rebels. Right now it is mostly going to the Free Sartar Army that is supposed to stop them coming back. As it is an army that is capable of fighting them on equal terms,  presumably this involves more or less the same amount as taxation as the Lunars themselves levied.

But the other half is that clans are a family, and you don't pay tax on non-cash transactions within a family. Some people, including the prosperous farmers represented by Barntar GodTalkers are expected to contribute more, but all full adults are expected to contribute something. The net result is that there should be sufficient surplus to pay for the the clan nobles, and also any formal taxes levied by empires, tribes or nations.

So if you give you chieftan a magical sword you found. He awards you 10 cows, and has a word with one of the thanes and the clan shaman to give you private lessons. No tax applies because everything stays within the clan. If you took that sword and sold it to a lunar, then it certainly would.

 

 

 

[David Scott]

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

Someone over on rpgnet did a 'let's read' of the lightbringers book, and they pointed out that a GodTalker of Barntar is paying 50% of their income as cult tithes. But they are the highest authority in the cult; there are no true rune levels, and few elaborate temples. So who are they paying that tithe _to_?

So God-talkers have no income and must support themselves with another occupation (can be a Rune priest of another cult), so the sacred time calculations are for a farmer:

Farmer 80L (assuming no mods) - 16L (to Ernalda cult) - 40L (half to Barntar) - 0 (SoL maintained by cult, that half to Barntar) = 24 L leftover. The cult tithe pays for the SoL, I'd assume the other income from being a God-talker bumps their income, by another 20L allowing them to maintain Free status (60L).

A Rich farmer with five hides: 400L - 80L (to Ernalda cult) - 200L (half to Barntar) - 0 (SoL maintained by cult, that 50%) = 140 L. The 200L would allow the farmer to nearly maintain noble status, so I'd assume the other income from being a God-talker bumps their income, by another 50L. This God-talker is likely a wealthy farmer

Note that Barntar only provides room and board, so I've just assumed that this is SoL as otherwise it's fiddly using maintenance from W&E.

 

 

[radmonger]

The Barntar writeup does explicitly say that they are not financially supported  by the cult. They do provide 'room and board', but that is surely of very limited use to to a farmer, who has to live where their herds and fields are, not where the temple is. I assume it applies only when they go visit the city, to save the cost of an inn.

Otherwise you get the very strange picture of junior farmers running their own steads. But once they get good enough they move into shared cult accomodation. Which, in the absence of any higher authority in the cult, they pay for out of their own pocket, and run themselves. Where do their wives and children live?

It makes far more sense to say that the 50% obligation is something than can only be taken on by a rich farmer with several hundred L of nominal income, and a ~60L 'free' SoL. Though this is somewhat of a chicken and egg situation; in a well-run clan, the good farmers will be the ones who are allocated the five hides. They will use it to grow more food than their household can eat, and pass it along to their neighbors. Each year they will breed more cattle than are eaten or die. And so they gift each new couple getting married with a wedding gift of a starter herd. They will cough up when their idiot nephew needs ransoming, and also when the tribe needs to keep its military in the field for another few weeks. They will answer the questions other farmers have, and sometimes go out to their fields and show them how to do things better.

in a badly run clan, the good land is given to the idiot nephew. They can use it to support themselves at the 200L 'noble' level, but they contribute nothing to the clan but a bad example.

Barntar is the good son, not the idiot nephew. So those who follow him aspire to being the former, and not the latter. They will suffer the disdain of their peers if they do not live up to that.

 

[g33k]

15 hours ago, svensson said:

@g33k makes a very salient point in all this when he talks about a herder getting part of the plunder...

There are no 'adventurers' in Glorantha any more than there you can put 'adventurer' in a W2 form [this is the basic annual earnings statement in the US tax code]. In Glorantha, you're a herder/hunter/farmer/whatever that does heroic stuff. Even professional warriors are 'thanes' or 'mercenaries', not 'adventurers'. Remember, the player characters have an adventure once a season and actually have day jobs that earn them their daily bread.

I was quoting from the Well of Daliath -- they used "herder hired as bodyguard" as an example-case.

But I disagree about "adventurers" in Glorantha:  it's not a "Profession" you can take in character-creation, no... but neither is there a W2 form!  The map is not the territory.

"Do heroic stuff" is the metric, agreed.  The key question, to me, is whether that's a one-time or very-rare thing... or is the person a "habitual offender."  The one-off-adventure Farmer, the very-occasional-adventure Hunter:  they remain Farmer and Hunter

If a character becomes the "go-to" person whenever a community (of herders/hunters/farmers/whatevers) needs an "adventurer;" if they have a "wandering" Profession (such as working caravans or ships... merchant, carter, guard, teamster, etc) and regularly do "adventure-y" side-quests from their nominal "Profession;" in short, if a non-trivial portion of their time becomes "adventuring" -- then I would consider them "professional" adventurers.  And they will gain Reputation as-such.

Once they are known as an "Adventurer," their nominal/original "Profession" has continually-decreasing relevance.

People stop thinking of them as a Farmer, as a Hunter, as a Whatever.
 

(that last is probably a Eurmali... "whatever" their nominal "profession" is)

Edited November 26, 2023 by g33k
Eurmal

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, radmonger said:

who has to live where their herds and fields are, not where the temple is

Why would you assume the temple is NOT where the herds and fields are? Most likely you'll find a large plinth setup in one of the common fields where all the Barntar folk come to worship.

10 hours ago, radmonger said:

they pointed out that a GodTalker of Barntar is paying 50% of their income as cult tithes. But they are the highest authority in the cult; there are no true rune levels, and few elaborate temples. So who are they paying that tithe _to_?

Who owns the land? The Earth Temples. And in turn, they may designate out some of the land to the clan (i.e. the clan chief then can designate out the hides to various families as well as temples). So, the clan raises the shrine in the fields to Barntar (as directed by the clan chief and Earth priestess), and then choose a God-talker to tend the shrine and Barntar's Field (some strip of land nearby/adjacent most likely). Lay and initiates make offerings to the God-talker. Much of that then goes as tithe to the clan (via the clan chief) and the Earth Temple. Perhaps some remains with which to acquire oxen and plough dedicated to Barntar (maybe those are communally shared). 

[radmonger]

12 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Much of that then goes as tithe to the clan

I agree in reality the surplus goes to the clan. It's slightly open-ended, and likely varies between clans, whether that is explicitly routed through the chief, or the chief just shows up and says 'you know, Hedkor's stead got hit pretty hard by that last raid. Do you think you do me a favor and help them out until we raid them back?' [1]

The earth temple owns the land, not the herds or tools. The way that comes into it is the temple will, in a well-run clan, grant that land to the people who will agree to such requests for aid[2].

And as the situation we are likely talking about is not a Barntar-led clan, that means the donation is not made to a 'cult of Barntar' that exists as a discrete thing taking 50% of the earth's bounty and spending it on massive elaborate ivory plinths[3]. A God Talker spends 10% of their time maintaining the shrine or site, and the rest farming, or training farmers. Which is why they have occupation farmer and not priest, and don't quite qualify for noble status.

[1] Meanwhile, the chief is going to a full Orlanth Thunderous stead and saying 'next windsday is the raid to get those bastards for what they did to Hedkor. You in?'

[2] I suspect a Lodrili farmer would be more 'i have done my assigned tasks, so i am taking the rest of the day off. Please move away, you are blocking my sunlight'.

[3] they won't make that mistake again.

[mfbrandi]

12 hours ago, radmonger said:

I suspect a Lodrili farmer would be more “… Please move away, you are blocking my sunlight.”

The farmer as cynic philosopher. Hidden depths — disguised as shallowness — are what one would expect from Lodril? Probably. But presumably, Argrath–Alexander is not such a fan in his Gloranthan incarnation. 😉

[Jeff]

On 11/19/2023 at 1:13 AM, Jose-san said:

I'm curious about how people manage taxes in their campaigns.

Initiates are supposed to pay 10% of their income to their temple. What's "income"? Their basic professional or household income and anything made on the side as well, like loot from adventures? How do you manage this?

Do you take this into account? Does it affect PC in any way?

What other taxes exist in Orlanthi society, do clans, tribes and/or cities collect taxes in any way? If so how and how much?

 

This is a tithe that represents what you are expected to offer to the temple as part of normal initiate status. Remember most people are farmer-herders. So for most people that is harvest, milk products, meat, wool, etc. Loot from enemies, profit from trade caravans are also easy to work out. 

This is really easy for the main cults - in Sartar, Orlanth and Ernalda are the patron gods of most people. We might have an annual tally kept by a scribe that keeps track of this, and the priests perform the usual blessings for folk who follow the traditions. Those who try to withhold from the gods might find themselves troubled by the spirit of retribution or might even be placed under a Ban by the priests.

There are often other renders given to rulers. An assembly might decide that everyone needs to pony up for some big expense - like preparation for war, building walls or roads, hiring mercenaries, etc. The assembly gathers and agrees to it. Maybe everyone agrees to pay a second tithe of the harvest or give part of their moveable property (herds) to the cause. The Prince of Sartar has certainly convened such assemblies in the past. Again scribes are used to keep track of who paid and how much. There are also tolls paid to use city markets, etc. that are levied by the rulers of the cities (or by the Prince).

The biggest source of money in Sartar are tolls on caravans. Given that almost ALL the trade between Peloria and the rest of the world, and almost ALL trade between Prax and the rest of the world, goes through Sartar, this is a huge amount of revenue. As a result, the Prince of Sartar traditionally enjoys more wealth than a Lunar satrap. As this is largely imposed on outsiders, it is also popular with the tribes.

[Jeff]

And a legion of scribes keep tally of these tolls. 

For more information on where Sartar gets its money, see https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/sartar-money-and-war/

[Jeff]

Now the Prince of Sartar is normally able to also levy a head tax. This is an annual payment of a single silver coin made by every "free" (including priests, nobles, etc, but not including tenants) adult in the kingdom. That raises a surprising amount of money but is completely dwarfed by the toll revenues.