Why does Peloria/Dara Happa suck so much?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Yinkin, for an eye, Humakt for a family member, Yelm for a life, and some other I don't know. After all the well of Daliath was a little bit hard with him

Can you please cite sources / links for some of these?  Maybe it's my google-fu - a Google search of "Orlanth Yinkin Eye" got nothing relevant.  A Well of Daliath search for "apolog" brought up one item, Orlanth apologizing for stealing Death.

I'd also argue that Well of Daliath shouldn't be the primary source for this stuff.  I, and many others, just paid a lot of money for new books. 

Neither Mythology nor the Lightbringers Cult book contain the word apology.  They don't mention Orlanth and Humakt reconciling!  There is no statement, anywhere that I have found, that Orlanth apologized to Yelm.  If there is one, please cite the source or link.  (I agree that Orlanth did correct his mistake)

Stormfall is noted in the books as a defeat for Ygg, Valind, and Vadrus.  And "other storm gods".  Which, I guess, by implication, includes Orlanth.  Would have been much better to expressly call him out for this key battle in myth.

Edited January 8 by Rodney Dangerduck

[jajagappa]

8 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Neither Mythology nor the Lightbringers Cult book contain the word apology.  They don't mention Orlanth and Humakt reconciling!  There is no statement, anywhere that I have found, that Orlanth apologized to Yelm. 

It's called "atonement" vs "apology".

See Mythology, p.51 (or Glorantha Sourcebook p.117), "Orlanth entered boldly, but Yelm treated him with coolness. Orlanth made his bid for friendship; Yelm made his demand for atonement; Orlanth made his demand for recognition; Yelm made his requirement for proof; Orlanth made his promise of the future; Yelm made the demand of trial by combat; Orlanth made his song of Truth. Orlanth then suffered the Requirement for Proof: a searing, burning shower of the acidic hatred of all Orlanth’s foes present. He was scorched and tortured, but as in the Baths of Nelat, he survived. Barely."

It's a core tenet of the Lightbringer's story.

 

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

10 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

It's a core tenet of the Lightbringer's story.

I'm aware of the story.  I'm stating that atonement is different from an apology.

Does atonement imply apology?  Maybe?  Orlanth "entered boldly", which doesn't sound apologetic.  But making a "bid for friendship" does.

 

Edited January 8 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I'm aware of the story.  I'm stating that atonement is different from an apology.

Does atonement imply apology?  Maybe?  Orlanth "entered boldly", which doesn't sound apologetic.  But making a "bid for friendship" does.

 

I used the word "atonement" because I view it as more serious and substantive than a mere apology. So I don't think this makes the point you are trying to make.

[Ageha]

On 1/5/2024 at 6:56 PM, soltakss said:

The Dara Happan Tripolis was created in God Time and survived the Lesser Darkness, Age of Ice, Greater Darkness, and Grey Age before emerging into Time. It then survived the Pentians/Horse Riders, Carmanians, Arkat, Empire of the Wyrms Friends and the Carmanians. Sure, other people had temporary power but those were only blips. The Dara Happan culture and the Empire lasted for all of this time.

So, they were temporarily conquered, or the surrounding lands were, but the cities themselves, the Tripolis, remained intact and unconquered.

Also, it's about culture. The Dara Happan Yelmites are similar to how they were at the Dawn, maybe a bit more polished but essentially the same. Can we say that of the Orlanthi? 

So, in that way, they are very successful.

Also, in Glorantha, Empires rise and fall with each Age. So, the fact that the Tripolis has survived through three Ages of Time and several Ages in God Time shows how successful they are.

So, this has happened a few times now, I am going to just say the following: I have already emphasized that I am not using 'survival' as a criterion for success because I am talking about its lack of success as a dominant hegemonic imperial power, which it is described as in the books.

In addition, as has been pointed out at the top of this page, Orlanthi culture has often endured for very long, so I do not think Peloria has any particular claim to longevity compared to numerous other cultures within Glorantha.

Empires rising and falling has no bearing on my point either as all empires always rise and fall, that does not mean we cannot discuss their hegemonic influence.

If, your statement is just: Dara Happa counts as 'successfull' because the Tripolis are still extant the I fully agree with you that, by your metric, Dara Happa is successful.

But that is not the point I am discussing. I would also say that the fact that the greatest city building culture does not even have the greatest city, is definitley a mark against them. 

On 1/7/2024 at 6:14 PM, g33k said:

I don't read it that way at all; I think @scott-martin hit the nail on the head calling it a "cri de coeur."  The OP really, really likes the DH empire and/or dislikes the Orlanthi (or maybe both, in various measures).

 

I don't mean to troll, at all. I mean it genuinely when I say, even if I don't like some parts of it, I still think the lore building in Runequest is easily amongst the most innovative, creative and just all around best I've ever seen. It deserves to be lauded, it is really, really good. 

I just happen to have a personal dislike for an integral part of it which means I can appreciate the quality of it, but do not enjoy it as much as others do.

I don't dislike the Orlanthi. I don't particularly love the Pelorians. The easiest way to describe my sentiments is simply: I feel bad for the Pelorians because upon my reading of the lore they seem to be consistently used as a punching bag to allow (usually but not always) Orlanthi to appear 'superior' by comparison. 

It is feeling sad, rather than a like/dislike for any particular group that motivates me.

On 1/7/2024 at 6:14 PM, g33k said:

They also display some misunderstandings, e.g. sometimes conflating DH with most/all Solar worship, and DP with most/all Storm worship... but not always doing so.   They apparently consider Draconic Kethaela to be yet another instance of "Storm beats Sun" (?!?) .  They even appear to have recorded Pent's conquest of (much of) DH onto the "Solars suck" side of his Storm/Solar ledger...?!

No. In this case there is one genuine mistake from my side and what appears to be a misunderstanding from yours:

(1) When I mentioned Kethaela I was simply mistaken. I went back, a bit confused why you mentioned Kethaela, saw where I made the error. I meant Esrolia was a region where Orlanthi culture was dominant, Storm worship is not relevant to me, what matters is the cultures. It is why I discussed this as Peloria rather than Yelm worshiping.

(2) There seems to be a misunderstanding regarding what I have said on Pent. So, to put it very succinctly from my side: (a) The fact that Sheng Seleris' Pentan empire is also eventually defeated by Orlanthi was what I discussed (2) Again, my interest is not specifically in 'Storm worshipers' against 'Sun worshipers', it is about Pelorian culture suffering. Thus, Pentan conquest of Peloria, the same as Malkioni and Orlanthi, are all part of what I am discussing. That is why I started this thread not by asking why 'Solars suck' but 'why do Pelorians suck'.

Dara Happa is not all, or even most, Solar Worship. I've explicitly said so now in this thread multiple times. Again, my point concerns Pelorian culture. Not Sun Worship. 

On 1/7/2024 at 6:14 PM, g33k said:

The OP has been presented with data -- such as the several other substantive (non-DH) Solar powers, the substantive numbers of DH victories, long DH Imperial eras, Storm-Carmanian subjugation by DH (& Orlanthi-Tarsh subjugation by thev Lunarized Dara Happans), the long Solar Tripolis history of survival (unmatched, ever, by any Air/Stom power) &c -- that don't fit their narrative (that the setting is treating DH badly)... they basically seem to take a "that doesn't count" attitude toward all these facts that don't fit their narrative.

 

Again: I have specified I am only concerned with Pelorian culture. Non-Pelorian hegemons, such as the Celestial Empire of Sheng Seleris, is simply not applicable to my point. In addition, Sheng, the substantive non-DH Solar power, is still ultimately simply defeated and destroyed yet again by an Orlanthi polity.

As I have said I am not discussing 'survival' as a criterion for imperial hegemonic success.

None of the Pelorian empires, until the Lunar Empire, even secure all of Peloria. The Lunar Empire is still vastly smaller than, for example, the EWF. We also already know the Lunar Empire will be defeated and destroyed by the Orlanthi and that the Provinces will come under the rule of Sartar, an Orlanthi hegemon.

I also really just want to say this so that there is no misunderstanding:

My point is not about Sun Pantheon v Storm Pantheon. I totally get there is a connection, so that is why the discussions easily get mixed up, by me as well.

But I am only concerned with Pelorian culture as discussed in the Guide to Glorantha. So, discussions of Kralolera, Pent, Teshnos etc. etc. are simply not relevant to me. 

[Ynneadwraith]

I'd agree that atonement>apology.

Let's say I set fire to my neighbours fence. I can apologise for it, and be fully sincere, but their fence will still be burnt. Atonement would be me actually replacing the fence. Or performing some other task to rectify my actions.

I'd be a happy man if we could get our politicians to atone for their actions rather than merely apologise (if they even do that). 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

33 minutes ago, Jeff said:

I used the word "atonement" because I view it as more serious and substantive than a mere apology. So I don't think this makes the point you are trying to make.

Thank you for this clarification.  Works for me.

[g33k]

53 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

...

Does atonement imply apology?  Maybe?

I think it does, in that both implicitly admit to wrong-doing.
An apology expresses regret.
An atonement furthermore attempts to correct the wrong-doing and/or to compensate those harmed.

[Ynneadwraith]

11 minutes ago, Ageha said:

 I am talking about its lack of success as a dominant hegemonic imperial power.

I think I get what you're saying now.

Perhaps a better mirror for them would be the Greeks. Now I expect I'm going to offend a great many Greeks by saying this, but the ancient Greeks did incredibly poorly as an imperial power in their own right. They may have provided democratic foundations for the modern world, and had an enormous cultural impact, but Greek polities largely barely got out of their own shadow.

The Spartans, despite having an overwhelming advantage in real estate, never built a hegemony that reached further than their own back garden. The Athenians did a little better by bringing together the Delian League, though that was only better by a shade. Again it was barely out of their metaphorical back garden, and lasted for a grand total of 74 years. Not particularly impressive.

Their greatest imperial achievement (Alexander's conquests) was accomplished by an ethnic Macedonian (in those days seen as more Greek-adjacent), and lasted a colossal 15 years as an imperial polity. His successors did a little better, though still pale into insignificance compared to the 1546 year stretch of the Roman Empire (if you count the Byzantine empire as an unbroken continuation, which there's no reason not to other than orientalism).

Where the Greeks did excel, however, was in their leading participation within other imperial polities. There were countless leading Greeks driving forward both the West and East Roman Empires, as well as providing mercenaries and philosophers to countless other empires across the Mediterranean.

So, while Dara Happa might have few emperors themselves, it's likely they would have been borne on a unending continuum of Dara Happan shoulders. Legitimised by Dara Happan schools of thought.

However, I do get your point. I would be pleased to see a little more Dara Happan weight in the cultural world of Glorantha. If only because I think they're fascinating.

[Jeff]

2 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

I think I get what you're saying now.

Perhaps a better mirror for them would be the Greeks. Now I expect I'm going to offend a great many Greeks by saying this, but the ancient Greeks did incredibly poorly as an imperial power in their own right. They may have provided democratic foundations for the modern world, and had an enormous cultural impact, but Greek polities largely barely got out of their own shadow.

The Spartans, despite having an overwhelming advantage in real estate, never built a hegemony that reached further than their own back garden. The Athenians did a little better by bringing together the Delian League, though that was only better by a shade. Again it was barely out of their metaphorical back garden, and lasted for a grand total of 74 years. Not particularly impressive.

Their greatest imperial achievement (Alexander's conquests) was accomplished by an ethnic Macedonian (in those days seen as more Greek-adjacent), and lasted a colossal 15 years as an imperial polity. His successors did a little better, though still pale into insignificance compared to the 1546 year stretch of the Roman Empire (if you count the Byzantine empire as an unbroken continuation, which there's no reason not to other than orientalism).

Where the Greeks did excel, however, was in their leading participation within other imperial polities. There were countless leading Greeks driving forward both the West and East Roman Empires, as well as providing mercenaries and philosophers to countless other empires across the Mediterranean.

So, while Dara Happa might have few emperors themselves, it's likely they would have been borne on a unending continuum of Dara Happan shoulders. Legitimised by Dara Happan schools of thought.

However, I do get your point. I would be pleased to see a little more Dara Happan weight in the cultural world of Glorantha. If only because I think they're fascinating.

Ho ho. If I follow this approach, I'd say that Dara Happa has been the dominant hegemonic power in Peloria for about 11 out of the last 14 centuries. 

And they did that without needing to be partnered with others. The Lightbringers spread so far across Genertela because they partnered with others. During their period of rapid transmission, they were partnered with the trolls and elves who helped them spread the Lightbringers message. Their great empire worked because they were partnered with dragonewts and dragons. It collapsed because they managed to fail their partners. 

Remember that - the Orlanthi have achieved greatness partnered with other cultures and species. The Dara Happans ARE the core of the Lunar Empire, so at most you can say that the Lunar dynasty has added a bunch of new cults and new magic to the old Dara Happan core.

Dara Happa has never had any lasting hegemony beyond Peloria. But that is a very different question.
 

[Malin]

1 hour ago, Ageha said:

 Again, my interest is not specifically in 'Storm worshipers' against 'Sun worshipers', it is about Pelorian culture suffering. Thus, Pentan conquest of Peloria, the same as Malkioni and Orlanthi, are all part of what I am discussing. That is why I started this thread not by asking why 'Solars suck' but 'why do Pelorians suck'.

Dara Happa is not all, or even most, Solar Worship. I've explicitly said so now in this thread multiple times. Again, my point concerns Pelorian culture. Not Sun Worship. 

Again: I have specified I am only concerned with Pelorian culture. Non-Pelorian hegemons, such as the Celestial Empire of Sheng Seleris, is simply not applicable to my point.

Ah, now I get it! Thank you for clarifying.

I think one of the reasons for the discussions here (which you could not have been aware of beforehand since you were new) is that your subject touched on other controversial subjects about Sun vs Storm here on the forum; thus many (including me) might have made assumptions we shouldn't have and started talking about a larger scale than you had intended.

Also, I hope you don't feel personally attacked by what is discussed here; sometimes things can get heated, especially when it comes to sore spots, and and people looping back to similar arguments they have had in the past. Just look into some posts about Yelmalio vs Elmal, Yelmalio's uselessness as a cult, or anything about Argrath, and I think you'll see this isn't exactly a new thing here.

I really do hope you stick around and have another think, there might be things you disagree with in the setting (not even saying you're right or wrong), but one of the things I do love about Glorantha is the freedom to look at things (even from official sources) and go "this is clearly a biased viewpoint" and then run with that and not accept the base publications as the gospel truth. Your Glorantha Will Vary is such a strength to me.

Edited January 8 by Malin

[g33k]

5 hours ago, Jeff said:

... I'd say that Dara Happa has been the dominant hegemonic power in Peloria for about 11 out of the last 14 centuries... 

That's an interesting way to analyze the area!
If it's not too much trouble, could you give a quick list of the dates/battles or other events that lifted DH into (or other powers into) being "the dominant hegemonic power in Peloria" ?

(and of course any periods where there was no such single "dominant" power)

Edited January 9 by g33k

[Rodney Dangerduck]

44 minutes ago, g33k said:

I think it does, in that both implicitly admit to wrong-doing.
An apology expresses regret.

I tend to agree with you and @Ynneadwraith.  Especially if atonement is "offered".

The fact that Yelm "demanded" atonement gives me pause - too reminiscent of war reparations.  But I'm probably going way too far into the textual Glorantha rabbit hole here...  (And Jeff clarified his intent)

Edited January 8 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Ageha]

20 minutes ago, Ynneadwraith said:

I think I get what you're saying now.

Perhaps a better mirror for them would be the Greeks. Now I expect I'm going to offend a great many Greeks by saying this, but the ancient Greeks did incredibly poorly as an imperial power in their own right. They may have provided democratic foundations for the modern world, and had an enormous cultural impact, but Greek polities largely barely got out of their own shadow.

The Spartans, despite having an overwhelming advantage in real estate, never built a hegemony that reached further than their own back garden. The Athenians did a little better by bringing together the Delian League, though that was only better by a shade. Again it was barely out of their metaphorical back garden, and lasted for a grand total of 74 years. Not particularly impressive.

Their greatest imperial achievement (Alexander's conquests) was accomplished by an ethnic Macedonian (in those days seen as more Greek-adjacent), and lasted a colossal 15 years as an imperial polity. His successors did a little better, though still pale into insignificance compared to the 1546 year stretch of the Roman Empire (if you count the Byzantine empire as an unbroken continuation, which there's no reason not to other than orientalism).

Where the Greeks did excel, however, was in their leading participation within other imperial polities. There were countless leading Greeks driving forward both the West and East Roman Empires, as well as providing mercenaries and philosophers to countless other empires across the Mediterranean.

So, while Dara Happa might have few emperors themselves, it's likely they would have been borne on a unending continuum of Dara Happan shoulders. Legitimised by Dara Happan schools of thought.

However, I do get your point. I would be pleased to see a little more Dara Happan weight in the cultural world of Glorantha. If only because I think they're fascinating.

This is exactly what I mean. Yes. Other than Athens, briefly, the many polises of Greece extended little imperial hegemonic power beyond their region, as compared to the Achaemenids, until the Macedonian Empire of the Argeads carried the process of Hellenization across much of the Mediterranean and Near East.

Earlier I discussed with someone else also how, comparable to Mesopotamia, Dara Happa has served as an important location, but one fought over by empires, typically Orlanthi, Malkioni or Pentan in nature. Never itself a serious hegemonic force (until the Lunar Empire, which we know will end poorly for them and with first Pentan, then Orlanthi hegemony restored). 

I would also have previously loved to see Dara Happan specifically, but Pelorian more generally, culture be a more vibrant and influential force, but I have come to accept that simply will not be. For whatever reasons Pelorian culture could not even in 400 years spread to become the dominant culture of the Lunar Provinces, so Pelorian culture just does not seem to spread well.

But, sincerely, I'm glad you understand what I mean. I really, truly, appreciate it.

12 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Remember that - the Orlanthi have achieved greatness partnered with other cultures and species. The Dara Happans ARE the core of the Lunar Empire, so at most you can say that the Lunar dynasty has added a bunch of new cults and new magic to the old Dara Happan core.

I'll be honest, again, this just makes the Pelorians sound dumb to me again.

13 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Dara Happa has never had any lasting hegemony beyond Peloria. But that is a very different question.

Okay! This is what I mean, I am glad for the confirmation. Thank you. Would it not be more accurate, though, to say 'northern' Peloria? Since Vanch, Talastar, Hoolay, Aggar, Imther and the Lunar Provinces as a whole are stated to be dominated by Orlanthi peoples in the Guide to Glorantha vol 1 and per Mythology: Cults in almost all of them worship of Orlanth still exceeds even Seven Mothers combined. 

11 minutes ago, Malin said:

Ah, now I get it! Thank you for clarifying.

I think one of the reasons for the discussions here (which you could not have been aware of beforehand since you were new) is that your subject touched on other controversial subjects about Sun vs Storm here on the forum; thus many (including me) might have made assumptions we shouldn't have and started talking about a larger scale than you had intended.

Also, I hope you don't feel personally attacked by what is discussed here; sometimes things can get heated, especially when it comes to sore spots, and and people looping back to similar arguments they have had in the past. Just look into some posts about Yelmalio vs Elmal, Yelmalio's uselessness as a cult, or anything about Argrath, and I think you'll see this isn't exactly a new thing here.

I really do hope you stick around and have another think, there might be things you disagree with in the setting (not even saying you're right or wrong), but one of the things I do love about Glorantha is the freedom to look at things (even from official sources) and go "this is clearly a biased viewpoint" and then run with that and not accept the base publications as the gospel truth. Your Glorantha Will Vary is such a strength to me.

I understand completely, the fault was mine for not immediately clamping down on digressions and actually also taking part in discussions about them.

I am keenly aware now that this is a touchy subject, this is why I felt responsible to at least say something on it. I apologize for that.

I don't feel personally attacked at all save for the one accusation of being a troll. Other than that, I think everyone has just brought up their points and whether I agree with them or not is irrelevant because everyone should be free to do so. I am a little sad just because this topic makes me sad, but that is just me, it has nothing to do with anyone else.

I think Glorantha is truly a lovely setting. There are few, if any, settings I've ever seen with such sheer originally and innovation. Being Bronze Age is also refreshing. Again, just to be clear, regardless of how I might dislike this one part, I think Glorantha, Runequest, is objectively amazing when it comes to world building.

Your Glorantha Will Vary is a really cool adage and a good one for people who play any sort of TTRPG in general, I think.

I do think, for me, it is just not enough but, perhaps I will change my mind. I am in a bad headspace at the moment so perhaps when I feel better I will find that I am able to still engage by simply focusing on the things I do like and trying to ignore the parts which make me sad. 

I just do not know, but I appreciate the kind words, thank you.

 

[Jeff]

7 minutes ago, Ageha said:

This is exactly what I mean. Yes. Other than Athens, briefly, the many polises of Greece extended little imperial hegemonic power beyond their region, as compared to the Achaemenids, until the Macedonian Empire of the Argeads carried the process of Hellenization across much of the Mediterranean and Near East.

Earlier I discussed with someone else also how, comparable to Mesopotamia, Dara Happa has served as an important location, but one fought over by empires, typically Orlanthi, Malkioni or Pentan in nature. Never itself a serious hegemonic force (until the Lunar Empire, which we know will end poorly for them and with first Pentan, then Orlanthi hegemony restored). 

I would also have previously loved to see Dara Happan specifically, but Pelorian more generally, culture be a more vibrant and influential force, but I have come to accept that simply will not be. For whatever reasons Pelorian culture could not even in 400 years spread to become the dominant culture of the Lunar Provinces, so Pelorian culture just does not seem to spread well.

But, sincerely, I'm glad you understand what I mean. I really, truly, appreciate it.

I'll be honest, again, this just makes the Pelorians sound dumb to me again.

Okay! This is what I mean, I am glad for the confirmation. Thank you. Would it not be more accurate, though, to say 'northern' Peloria? Since Vanch, Talastar, Hoolay, Aggar, Imther and the Lunar Provinces as a whole are stated to be dominated by Orlanthi peoples in the Guide to Glorantha vol 1 and per Mythology: Cults in almost all of them worship of Orlanth still exceeds even Seven Mothers combined. 

I understand completely, the fault was mine for not immediately clamping down on digressions and actually also taking part in discussions about them.

I am keenly aware now that this is a touchy subject, this is why I felt responsible to at least say something on it. I apologize for that.

I don't feel personally attacked at all save for the one accusation of being a troll. Other than that, I think everyone has just brought up their points and whether I agree with them or not is irrelevant because everyone should be free to do so. I am a little sad just because this topic makes me sad, but that is just me, it has nothing to do with anyone else.

I think Glorantha is truly a lovely setting. There are few, if any, settings I've ever seen with such sheer originally and innovation. Being Bronze Age is also refreshing. Again, just to be clear, regardless of how I might dislike this one part, I think Glorantha, Runequest, is objectively amazing when it comes to world building.

Your Glorantha Will Vary is a really cool adage and a good one for people who play any sort of TTRPG in general, I think.

I do think, for me, it is just not enough but, perhaps I will change my mind. I am in a bad headspace at the moment so perhaps when I feel better I will find that I am able to still engage by simply focusing on the things I do like and trying to ignore the parts which make me sad. 

I just do not know, but I appreciate the kind words, thank you.Ag

So wait, Dara Happa is kind of dumb despite dominating most of Peloria for most of the last 16 centuries because it does that with an imperial system instead of council? Dara Happa believes that a monarchy, with the monarchy being descended from the Sun God, is the rightful form of government. Large Orlanthi polities are almost always confederations of groups held together by a ruling council from the groups. The Orlanthi regularly create confederations with their equals, the Dara Happan rulers traditional recognise no outside equals.

Which is pretty normal for imperial systems.

Or that the Southern Peloria hills are still largely Orlanthi? Maybe because unlike in the Pelorian heartlands where the Sun God is associated with the Red Goddess, in the hill country the traditional ruling deity is an enemy of the Red Goddess. That likely is going to slow down spread of the Lunar Way - just as Dara Happa did not develop a substantive local Orlanth community during the few times it was ruled by Orlanthi. 

But is Dara Happa culture influential even among those who do not revere Yelm as the ruling god or reject the Lunar Way? Absolutely. It is perfectly normal to see tribal kings emulate the emperor or even try to assert greater powers. Theyalan scribes read Dara Happan manuals on celestiology. Pelorian philosophy has proven influential and the Moon Rune is largely accepted as one of the Elemental Runes. This is no doubt more prevalent in the Pelorian hills than in Sartar or beyond, but that's a byproduct of the Inhuman Occupation and the resettlement of Dragon Pass.

 

[Ynneadwraith]

@Ageha while I think you're being a bit strong in your assertion (as the greek example demonstrated, imperial hegemony is not the only...or even the best method of securing a legacy), I do get where you're coming from.

I wonder if in my Glorantha I'll pop a smattering of Dara Happan colonies and ex-colonies across Genertela, and perhaps model in a more obvious way the influence the Dara Happan system of governance has had on their neighbouring cultures. Perhaps by showing a radiation of the idea that 'legitimacy stems from direct descent from the head of the pantheon' in adjacent cultures.

[Richard S.]

What is Pelorian culture? I think if we want to define it at the most basic, it's an upper class of sky-worshipers ruling over a fire-and-earth-worshiping peasantry. The former live mostly in cities, the latter mostly in villages, and relations between the two are tightly bound up in ritual. Both classes rely on each other, and it's hard for the whole structure to be exported elsewhere without an empire to back it up. Elements of their technology and government can and have been adopted elsewhere though, like the lod-plow and possibly the idea of hereditary kingship, and arguably the Sun Dome Temples are Pelorian societies in miniature.

Orlanthi culture? I'd say it's a partnership of air and earth cults living in self-sufficient family groups, with government going to the person with the greatest magical, martial, and social strength in the community. That same idea of strength extends both above and below the basic clan unit, so leadership is very flexible (if a little unstable). For this reason it's fairly easy for Orlanthi to enter an area, as shown by the numerous migrations they've engaged in throughout time, they don't need much outside help to remain, and they mix easily with other cultures (to the point that I'd argue there are actually several distinct cultures under the "orlanthi" label).

[French Desperate WindChild]

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Can you please cite sources / links for some of these?  Maybe it's my google-fu - a Google search of "Orlanth Yinkin Eye" got nothing relevant. 

now I m not sure about the eye... I was talking about the myth of Orlanth child playing with his half brother Yinkin

https://glorantha.fandom.com/wiki/Yinkin

Quote

In Whistling Caves, young Orlanth buffeted Yinkin his winds and blows out of cliffs, then Orlanth rushed to save him.

so for me, apologies

 

the story with Humakt is how they argue about death, and, at the end, Orlanth accepted he was wrong and a new relationship was agreed (so for me, apologies)

 

4 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I'd also argue that Well of Daliath shouldn't be the primary source for this stuff.  I, and many others, just paid a lot of money for new books. 

yes I agree with you  (in the same way that I like  reference in rqg books more than references in something written 1 century ago 😛 - cause sometimes it is still true, sometimes not, how to know ?

however " my " well of Daliath was not the internet resource. It was the myth with Orlanth, purging his faults (that's how I interpret it) by acquiring wisdom in the bath of Nelat.

 

a significant part of Orlanth follows this cycle: Orlanth does something bad, by choice, error or accident, and try (and often succeed) to fix it, without hiding / denying his responsabilities.

We don't know (and is it important ? imo no) if he said "excuse me" / "apologies" or anything like that but his acts demonstrate it in my opinion.

 

[g33k]

3 hours ago, Richard S. said:

What is Pelorian culture? I think if we want to define it at the most basic, it's an upper class of sky-worshipers ruling over a fire-and-earth-worshiping peasantry...

Don't forget Water!  The Oslir (and several other rivers (and their deities)) are central to the life (and worship) of a great many "Pelorians."

Really, I see "Peloria" as much more of a geographic than a cultural term.

Edited January 9 by g33k

[Richard S.]

33 minutes ago, g33k said:

Don't forget Water!  The Oslir (and several other rivers (and their deities)) are central to the life (and worship) of a great many "Pelorians."

And ancestor worship (Biselenslib and SurEnslin)!

38 minutes ago, g33k said:

Really, I see "Peloria" as much more of a geographic than a cultural term.

That's probably the most accurate assessment. I do think the Lodrili and Darjini and other subcultures have been under Yelmic rule long enough for a lot of similarities to develop though.

[Ali the Helering]

10 hours ago, Jeff said:

Ho ho. If I follow this approach, I'd say that Dara Happa has been the dominant hegemonic power in Peloria for about 11 out of the last 14 centuries. 

Or, at least, that is the story as they tell it in the here and now.  GRoY and FS indicate massive internal strife and divisions at various stages, even with both of those documents emerging as propogandist imperial doctrine.

'Dominant' is a bit difficult to justify given the power of Spolism, Draconism, Nysalor, Sheng Seleris, Rinliddi, the Hyalorings, and the strife within the Tripolis and between city and countryside, as well as a new Celestial but markedly non-Solar (in her present form) God-of-Rule to name but some of the issues they have faced and are facing.  I think 'most prominent' is as far as one could realistically go.

[French Desperate WindChild]

reading all the comments, I wonder if there were more Dara Happan material (chaosium & JC scenarios, setting books, prirority in the cult books, etc..) the opinions we have would be the same.

 

and there is something ... I m not sure of the right words (linguee gave me a lot but I m not confortable to choose so..)  to not offense anyone I will just ask questions :

 

Does today France suck more than French colonial empire 2 centuries ago because the territory is smaller ?

Do the vast majority of men suck because there "Lodril's gear" are ridiculous compared to mine ? (second degree, I m in the stats)

 

Should a country, a community, an empire be the bigger, with the bigger cities to be the best ?
It is clear, even today, that some leaders believe it, able to use war to prove how the best they are,.

 

Or are there other "variables" ? Is it even possible to define a real hierarchy ?

[Sir_Godspeed]

In some ways the core issue in the OP's question has been somewhat answered and resolved - and I think it's sorta undeniable that yeah, the imperial claims of the Dara Happan elite are somewhat exaggerated, and well, I must admit that I thought that was kinda the point. It's a bit tongue-in-cheek, with the most pompous and chauvinist culture being kind of a tossing ball between various powers and very much having its glory in the distant past. Their dogmatic claims to cultural constancy being all but fabricated, their claims to divinely ordained paramountcy being political propaganda, and so forth. That's one of the undercurrents I got from reading GRoY and then going on to read Fortunate Succession, at least. Adding the Entekosiad to that forms a trilogy of thoroughly deconstructing the Dara Happan mytho-political legitimacy project.

I don't think this is ALL there is, as others have noted, the hegemon claims of Dara Happa DO have merit, but the overall point is that they're not all they're cracked up to be, and that's poetically ironic, in a way. It's a fun yarn to unwind, one of those "riddles" baked into Glorantha that fans and hobbyists can discover and pat themselves on the back.

This leads me into wondering if another version of Glorantha where Peloria wasn't landlocked would have yielded a different worldbuilding where Pelorian empires spread different, and their culture was more readily visible - much like Malkionism is today. Often, worldbuilding is iterative and once you've locked yourself into one track you just kinda have to work with it. Peloria is landlocked, so that's just kinda the world we got, one where the big imperial culture is also kind of a global backwater. Weird, but maybe not completely unprecedented - China has *shades* of that through history. 

The OP is operating from impression garnered from the Guide to Glorantha, and I'm not sure we've done them a service by bringing up deep esoterica to counter that impression. I think their complaint isn't just one relating to WORLDBUILDING, but maybe more pertinently PRESENTATION, and what publishers want readers to immediately parse when they see introductory material.  

On 1/9/2024 at 3:06 AM, g33k said:

Don't forget Water!  The Oslir (and several other rivers (and their deities)) are central to the life (and worship) of a great many "Pelorians."

Really, I see "Peloria" as much more of a geographic than a cultural term.

This is my own impression as well. The Guide to Glorantha obviously wants to ease readers into the world, and so make grand simplifications - this is fair and good. But in all honesty, I think presenting Peloria as a singular cultural category is more of a simplification than doing the same for the Orlanthi. 

The lightbringer-pantheon Orlanthi draws on God Time elements, of course, but I tend to think of it more as a creation of Dawn Era survivors rather than a continuation of older tradition. This is cool and interesting, but I think it can be deceptively easy to ignore. Modern day Orlanthi are part of a cultural expansion and synthesis that took centuries to spread out across most of western and central Genertela, sometimes interacting with surviving Storm-worshipping communities, but just as often, or maybe more often, converting groups of people that really didn't have much or any history as God Time storm worshippers. They were aided in this by having EXCEPTIONALLY EXCELLENT relations with the dominant Elder Races at the time. 

Peloria, however, appears to me to be more a case of God Time survivor communities taking up again their previous traditions (with some very major exceptions, such as the Solar Horse Nomads) and this creates a case where their overall cultural forms, their myths, and so forth are more divergent. Zarkosites and Pelandans and Weeders are all more culturally divergent from each other than, say, Heortlanders from Jonatings. They're more akin to the difference between Heortlanders or Sartarites and Yggites. Maybe that's a bit of a stretch, but you get my point.

To make a comparison, Orlanthi are like a language family branching out over time where a number of features are preserves that signals that they are related. Pelorian cultures are more like unrelated languages that interact so often that they form a loose sprachbund. 

This is why I'm a bit skeptical of discussing Pelorian culture as something conceptually unified that CAN be exported. 

What we have are language, material culture, certain gods, governmental forms. And this we do have some evidence of, I believe. From what I recall, Pelorian Orlanthi use Pelorian or even Dara Happan styles of pottery and dress - but as prestige goods. And they may title themselves with lowlander titles. Religious conversions seems to be the contentio of this thread, and ironically it's also a contention in-universe also, lol.

Notably, ethnic conversion is NOT something really applicable here, because Pelorian cultures don't really conceive of its spread in this way, this that makes sense. The Weeders and Doblianders and Pelandans were not turned into Dara Happans, or some generic "Pelorian", and so neither will happen to conquered Pelorian Orlanthi or Pentan Redlanders or Janubian colonists. Localized identities often seem to stay in place, but with expectations to submit to the overall authority of imperial institutions, and Yelm-derived religious rites. 

The closest we get to a common Pelorian self-understood identity seems to be "Lodrilite"(?) Which appears to be a generic term for Pelorian farming and village communities worshipping Lodril and Oria or some equivalent. I'm not sure, but at this point I am more or less guessing that this is an exonym used by aristocrats to refer to widely diverse groups. Are Manimati, Dasenites and Henjarli peasants all "Lodrilites"? Again, if so, this is probably as close we'll ever get to any kind of unified Pelorian group identity. 

Lastly, one thing I wanted to add is just the general reminder that Peloria is HUGE. It's MASSIVE compared to what is sometimes presented as its geopolitical rival in Kethaela and upland Kerofinela. And of course, depending on how you draw the borders, Kerofinela isn't so much its own region as its a saddle straddling both southern Peloria and northern Kethaela (which explains why "the Pelorians have never controlled all of Peloria" - it's not an innately a 100% Solar region to begin with.)

Apologies for the rambling response, this touched on some thoughts of my own I haven't had any opportunity to put into paper.

[Heltver]

I sympathize with the OPs point, and I appreciate the overall discussion and counterpoints.

Back in the 80’s when there was much less info available, the Orlanthi felt like clear underdogs and the the Lunar Empire was a fascinating and ascendant anatagonist. If your starting point is after the Dragonrise and  you have access to KOS and the Guide, it can look very different, and it makes it harder to cheer for the Orlanthi when you know they are going to win. I understand why KOS had to be written and the game setting updated, but c. 1612 seems like a better campaign setting to me, and even more so without the foreknowledge of Lunar defeat. If it feels like the Orlanthi are on their last legs and facing complete defeat or extermination, the stakes are higher than if they have just turned the tide and are going to win and win and win (granted it’s more complicated than that, and granted people have started their campaigns earlier and played through the great winter, for example. But the vibe is that the Lunars are going to be a bit of a punching bag when you start in 1625) Having said that I absolutely love the new edition, and the huge amount of material available in the Guide. The fact that some of the information is going to overdetermine the future or force you to Vary your Glorantha more from the official timeline if you don’t like it is inevitable. 

 

I don’t necessarily feel so sad for the Pelorians  - I think of them more like Egypt - not a massively expansionist empire, but an incredibly enduring one, and that is awe inspiring in a different way. It’s the heroes and super heroes that rub me a bit the wrong way. They are super interesting and iconic figures, but to me Argrath and especially Harrek seem to be missing tragic flaws. They are not just inevitable but no one can stand up to them. Yes Argrath faces setbacks but he is ultimately unstoppable unlike say Alexander the Great or Achilies. And it seems like absolutely nothing can stand up to Harrek and I wonder why he isn’t just ruler of the world (I’m not clear on when or if his end comes - if I knew what ultimately caused his end and their was something dramatic or noble about it this would change my perception. But as it is he feels undefeated since age 11 or something). Kallyr and even Jar-Eel seem more human to me and therefore a bit more interesting and sympathetic (yes, Jar-Eel is the most godlike, but the fact that she forfeits a battle because she is horny is a very interesting flaw, and the fact that she is killed by the unstoppable Harrek makes her more flawed or maybe just more sympathetic than the two victors. I also wish that there was a triumphant feminine hero instead of them always losing to boys. Having said that, I do like that Argrath and Harrek are not portrayed as “good” and that there is room to portray them as powerful villains, and that there is room for a multitude of viewpoints is why Glorantha so compelling to me. The history is definitely rich and complex enough that I do think the Pelorians can justifiably be proud of a glorious legacy even if their culture hasn’t spread as much (isn’t as diffuse?) as the Orlanthi Culture. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

8 hours ago, Heltver said:

Kallyr and even Jar-Eel seem more human to me and therefore a bit more interesting and sympathetic

I very much agree.  Argrath, Harrek, and the Red Emperor are much less interesting.