Ageha Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) I find the effort that has been put into crafting Glorantha's world really impressive. Even if not playing the game it is one of the few games I can think of where I honestly just enjoy reading the lore as well. For the most part this remains my broad assessment. However, after reading a fair amount of it now, I have to also admit there are some things I dislike, or which rub me the wrong way. For the most part these are small, and no human will ever not have some problems with something so it isn't really relevant, but I do really dislike how absolutely everything Yelm-related (and by extension the Peloria region and Dara Happan empire) seem to just suck at everything, particularly when at the same time the history still also tries to present them as important, dominant, players in the macro landscape, politically, culturally and religiously, of Genertela. I know at least most of this probably stems from one root cause: Orlanth and the Orlanthi are designated 'good guys' for the setting and so must usually always come out on top over anything Yelm or Peloria-related in the end. But, even with that being the case, considering the more than 1600 years of history post-Dawn, the question still remains for me: why does Peloria/Dara Happa suck so much? If we trace the general macro-cosmic rivalry of Air-Sky mediated through the resultant conflicts it is virtually ALWAYS Peloria that loses: Starting even all the way at the beginning we've got Orlanth beating Yelm and claiming dominion, followed by an extended period of the Ram people just kicking the ancestors of Dara Happa's butt all over the place. The Six Ages games even now make it so that the only important Yelmite group to come from this period ultimately all converted and became 'Rams' as well. Has Yelm or his representative mortal groups ever actually won any conflict against the Orlanthi outside the brief Lunar occupation of Dragon Pass? Anyway: With the Second Council the Dara Happan Empire at least seems to achieve some sort of stalemate, though only after losing much of Peloria, if not most, to Orlanthi already, but come Arkat-Gbaji and the Pelorians just lose. Again. (On that note, also, Yelm's an incredible pushover when it comes to his turf. Whilst Orlanthi have gone on to turn basically ALL of Genertela outside Kralolera, Teshnos, Pent and a small bit of Peloria into Orlanthi cultural and religious spaces Peloria has...not managed to export its culture or religion even once? Despite being said to be the 'heart of many great empires'? Is there a secret that only Orlanthi culture or religion actually ever spreads and grows and all others just shrink and become subordinated under Orlanthi? Well, I guess different Western/Theyalan also spread to some extent, but usually only if they first accept Orlanth as being foremost in primacy in some way) Then, in the next bout, the EWF just conquers Dara Happa again. Here, nothing really to say, Dara Happa/Peloria just beat again. (Also, Orlanthi keep being called in a lot of the text 'barbarians' and are often contrasted by being disorganized/decentralized against the 'imperial' Pelorians, but that seems bizarre and counterfactual. Until the Lunar Empire no Pelorian Empire ever even managed to rule all of Peloria, they at most ruled most of northern Peloria. The Lunar Empire, the greatest Pelorian Empire by FAR only managed to finally rule all of Peloria, in a time where half of Peloria is now Orlanthi anyway, and then Dragon Pass and a small sliver of Prax. Meanwhile Orlanthi have been at the centre, or literally the leaders of, three massive empires spanning much of Genertela and the world even: The Unity Council, Arkat's Conquests and the EWF. The Orlanthi have a far, far, FAR greater track record as imperial conquerors than the Pelorians could ever hope to have. The Pelorians have literally failed to even maintain control of their full homeland, half of it now being culturally and religiouslly outright Orlanthi or Orlanthi-dominated, whilst Orlanthi have gone on to conquer virtually all Dragon Pass, Prax, Fronela, Kralolera, the East Isles, Fonrit, Umathela, Seshnela, Ralios and more at different points in their history and, in many of those areas, have permanently altered the cultures and religions there to be Orlanthi in nature. Like...Orlanthi are clearly the number 1 most imperial culture, so this weird emphasis on Peloria as the 'seat' of empires is just absolutely bizarre to me when they have some of the tiniest empires ever.) Then the Pelorians spend time dominated by the Carmanians who have an Air God (not Orlanth though, Storm Bull) as their chief deity. Finally with the Lunar Empire the Pelorias experience perhaps the only period of dominance they've ever had since the Dawn (Sheng Seleris' bout withstanding for now) but we already know this story all just ends with the Hero Wars, Peloria losing (again) and once more the same result as always play out: Pelorians lose and some or other Orlanthi group triumphs over them. In this case Argarth seems so overpowered that I don't know why the Pelorians even kept fighting him since he seems to be basically invincible and stronger than the entire rest of the world. Even in the dynamics of the world this seems pretty apparent. Orlanthi numbers exceed Pelorians by a significant margin even though Peloria is a deeply urbanized society focused in an incredibly fertile bowl with a much more centralized population. Orlanthi religion is VASTLY more widespread than Pelorian, than any other religion honestly. Again, they seem to be the only people in all of Glorantha who actually expand, dominate and assimilate others. All other cultures and religions basically have one homeland region which they have never managed to leave and, most of the time, half of that homeland region is now Orlanthi culturally and religiously now. Which is fine but at this point it just remains to me the question of why anyone would bother worshiping Yelm when Yelm's entire histoy post-Dawn is that his worshipers just lose time and time again in every single war they ever have against anyone even vaguely Orlanthi? At this point I'd think any pragmatic human would realize Yelm, and Peloria, are pretty hopeless and mass conversion to Orlanth worship is the only way to actually achieve any meaningful success (particularly now that the only seeming counterargument, the Lunars, have been definitively crushed by Orlanthi as well). So, why does anyone serve Yelm? His magic seems pathetic and weak. His sons lose virtually every fight they get into. Every single empire dedicated to him is crushed by some or other Orlanthi power in swiftly. I don't think a Pelorian Yelm-Pantheon Empire has ever actually even won a single battle (that I can find mention of in the books) against the Orlanthi. Discounting the Lunar Empire for now since they are Lunar-Pantheon predominantly and not Yelm. Or, I guess, the macro question here: why worship anyone but Orlanth? In a world where gods are real and have explicit power levels which let them defeat other gods, and where Orlanth has shown time and time again in every clash in the material world that (outside of Wakboth) he is simply stronger than all other gods, what incentive is there to worship anyone else? More thant that: in a world where only one group of humans seem to win all conflicts and be better than everyone at everything, the Orlanthi, what is the point? Orlanthi are clearly set to conquer the world, they've already almost done it multiple times, and they only ever fall in truth to their own infighting. No external force is ever actually able to threaten them unless, like the Unity Council and EWF, they first fight among themselves. Like, if I was a Pelorian I'd just accept that after a 1600 year history of getting our butts kicked by the Orlanthi every time, of having our homeland conquered by them twice, of most of the south of our homeland now largely being Orlanthi in nature anyway, it is pretty obvious we're just clearly losers and we need to just convert and assimilate because that's already happening. I mean is there any region in Genertela which is traditionally Orlanthi where a different culture/religion has come to power like happened in Southern Peloria which is mostly Orlanthi now? Maybe in Pamaltela, I have not yet read as much about them. So, ultimately, is a textual reason ever given for why Peloria is so pathetic and why the Sky Gods are so incredibly weak? Edited January 2 by Ageha Some other thoughts came to me so I thought I'd add them 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
French Desperate WindChild Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) A question of perspective 🙂 3 hours ago, Ageha said: Orlanth and the Orlanthi are designated 'good guys' for the setting Are they ? Are people good when they are able to kill another clan just because their ancestors did, even if they don’t know the root cause or because the first event was an insult 200 years ago ? are people good when they are able to « clean » a full ethnic people (telmori) who served their kings (Sartar and co) are people good when they accepted to hunt the ducks and then bargain some advantages from lunars ? - of course they are people and individuals - but from some perspective no Orlanthi are not so good. There are good Orlanthi, there are « neutral » Orlanthi and there are bad Orlanthi. Same for Pelorian and even among the lunar worshippers there are good guys 3 hours ago, Ageha said: everything Yelm-related (and by extension the Peloria region and Dara Happan empire) seem to just suck Does it ? does Alexander the Great’s empire suck ? How many years did survive his empire ? did Roman Empire suck ? But there is no more Roman Empire ? Did Ancient Greek cities suck ? They were dominated by Rome after all ? now in Glorantha; it is true that pelorian lost against Arkat but where is Arkat empire today ? (Before the end of glorantha I mean) it is true that pelorian lost against EWF but where is EWF today ? It is true that pelorian lost against carmanian but … where is Carmania today ? See Peloria like the sun. The day you see the sun , you see the light. The night you don’t see the sun, you don’t see it’s light. But the day after you will see the sun.. the same sun (or about) now see the Orlanthi as the wind. Today you hear its noise, you feel its strength. Sometimes it is a hurricane sometimes it is a breeze. But the day after you don’t know if you will see the same hurricane. But what you are sure is that next year it will not be the same hurricane (if there is another hurricane.) Orlanth is the king, probably the most powerful entity when Yelm is the emperor, even after his defeat against Orlanth both must exist (before the end of glorantha I mean) why some people worship the sun and not the air ? Because some want to live in peace even if the price is less freedom. They don’t want to fight for a clan chief against another clan chief every year. why some people worship the air and not the sun ? Because they praise freedom even if the price is more risks, more conflict. everything is a question of perspective. There is not a conflict between the blue good and the red bad, there is a conflict between the not evil but sometimes bad blue and the rest of the world : other not evil but sometimes bad blues, sometimes <not evil but sometimes bad> red, today <a part of evil but just a part> red. Edited January 2 by French Desperate WindChild 7 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott-martin Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 3 hours ago, Ageha said: I mean is there any region in Genertela which is traditionally Orlanthi where a different culture/religion has come to power like happened in Southern Peloria which is mostly Orlanthi now? Maybe in Pamaltela, I have not yet read as much about them. This whole post is a real cri de cœur, thank you. To start by pulling this particular thread, the history of the West IMG (including Umathela) is largely a narrative of "malkionization" as the scattered storm-leaning communities (and others) assimilate into the sorcerous framework one way or another. From what we know now it's also likely that archaic eastern storm people (call them "kaharites" if you like) got folded into modern Kralorelan society but there's still a lot of work left to do there. More broadly, I think that for most of history Dara Happa is actually winning through persistence and organization. They excel at continuity. Their aggressions tend to be symbolic and directed at suppressing internal rivalries. They can do this successfully for a very long time. When they are winning, the histories gloss over centuries where "not much happened" . . . change is slow, routine and bureaucracy take hold, the system works because it works. They never really lose in these periods because there's no need to even have a real fight about anything. Something like a golden age prevails. But when the Dara Happan system hits its limit, discontinuities force events and "storm" emerges in all its unpredictability. Most of the time these disruptions are reincorporated into the system one way or another through institutional channels like Lodril but occasionally the trouble goes all the way to the top and the unchanging regime changes, complete with plenty of moral and intellectual turmoil as the new winners work to justify their ascendent positions and the losers struggle to rationalize the defeat. These moments of transformation are interesting to historians and gamers alike. The game is not coincidentally set in an era when the solar order is stretching too far and storm forces have started to multiply in the margins. It's a dangerous time of high adventure. 9 1 Quote singer sing me a given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Wow. I guess this is shows how passionate folk can get about fictional places! A few thoughts. Dara Happa properly speaking consists of an ancient confederation of three cities along the lower Oslir River - Yuthuppa, Raibanth, and Alkoth - plus their colonies and dependencies. They've been an important confederation for over a thousand years, although sometimes have been ruled by outsiders. Dara Happa has been a very successful confederation - which is usually the source of its trouble. It is powerful and rich enough to have pretensions of universal rule - which twice it has come close to making a reality (the Golden Empire and the Lunar Empire). The Orlanthi have pulled that off once (the EWF - the High Council was NOT an empire but an alliance of groups where humanity was in the minority, and Arkat gave rule to the trolls, not the Orlanthi). Unlike the Orlanthi, Dara Happa has an unbroken history - it didn't lose the core of civilization to the Dragonkill War. Yelm is one of the three most broadly powerful cults in terms of its range of Rune Spells (the others not surprising are Ernalda and Orlanth). He gets access to Shield, Sunspear, Truespear (through a subcult), Fire Elementals of all sizes, and a LOT more. His cult is able to claim with a straight face that he summoned his murderer before him and forced him to make amends in order to revive the world. 5 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Another thing to think about. We tend to assume that Dara Happa is THE solar civilization. But of course it is not. The Pentans have nearly as good a claim to this as Dara Happa. The Horse Lords ruled Dara Happa at the Dawn. They stopped the expansion of the Unity Council and fought the Second Council to a standstill (until the cities of Dara Happa rebelled). And in the Third Age, they ruled most of Peloria, Prax, Kralorela, and Teshnos, making them the rulers of a quarter of mortal humans in Glorantha. 1 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfbrandi Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 1 hour ago, scott-martin said: change is slow, routine and bureaucracy take hold, the system works because it works … But when the Dara Happan system hits its limit, discontinuities force events and “storm” emerges in all its unpredictability. Normal science ends, and a paradigm shift is required — is this what happened to the Godlearners? Edited January 2 by mfbrandi trimmed … hard 1 1 Quote NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard S. Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 I think that, while Yelm might have overall less initiates than Orlanth, his cult has at least as much if not more influence than the latter. Since Yelm's cult itself has a very hierarchical structure, and because his priests have divine authority over pretty much every other solar cult, Yelmites naturally can exert their influence much more easily and over a wider area than their Orlanthi counterparts. Orlanth's cult, on the other hand, doesn't have a strong central organization and only has as much authority as his priests can personally acquire through family, friends, and/or violence; even his associated cults are only held together by voluntary bonds, or by Orlanth continually beating them up. The counterpoint to this, of course, is that Orlanth's cult can spread much more easily, since all it requires is his initiates going somewhere and establishing themselves as the new top dogs. Yelm worship, on the other hand, has to have a base of solar cults (or certain earth cults in a pinch) to establish itself on if it wants to actually rule. Though this also means that Yelm can step right back onto the throne after an upset so long as there's still Lodrili peasants to rule, while Orlanthi who've been forced out of an area will have to go through the process of fighting to be top dog all over again. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
metcalph Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Has Yelm or his representative mortal groups ever actually won any conflict against the Orlanthi outside the brief Lunar occupation of Dragon Pass? Conquest of the Theyalans at the battle of Night and Day. Lasted several decades before the Orlanthi hired Trolls and Malkioni to do their dirty work for them. Expulsion of Orlanth Dragonfriend from their lands. Defeat of Jannisor. Defeat of the Kynnelfings. Conquest of Tarsh. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: With the Second Council the Dara Happan Empire at least seems to achieve some sort of stalemate, though only after losing much of Peloria, if not most, to Orlanthi already, but come Arkat-Gbaji and the Pelorians just lose. Again. I don't recognize this version of events. The Empire came into being after the Second Council defeated the last of the horse riders. The Council then became split over the God Project whereupon the Dara Happans invaded. The Second Council made peace and became part of the Dara Happan Empire. In what sense is this a stalemate? 9 hours ago, Ageha said: (On that note, also, Yelm's an incredible pushover when it comes to his turf. Whilst Orlanthi have gone on to turn basically ALL of Genertela outside Kralolera, Teshnos, Pent and a small bit of Peloria into Orlanthi cultural and religious spaces Peloria has...not managed to export its culture or religion even once? You are using an sweeping definition of Orlanthi and a restrictive definition of Pelorians here. At least compare apples with apples. What is the Sun Dome temple if not Pelorian culture? What is Illumination which came from Yelm and has an enduring presence in Ralios? What is the Lunar Way which sprang from Yelm and has worshippers in Fronela, Peloria and the Wastelands even *after* the fall of the Lunar Empire? Seven Mothers worshippers in Prax (as per Cults of Runequest: Mythology) Bison Trbe: 1% High Llama: 1% Impala: 3% Morokanth: 6% Pol Joni: lusers Rhino: 1% Sable: 10% Unicorn: 10% Zebra: lusers. In free Dragon Pass: Grazelands: 5% Old Tarsh: 5% Sartar: 5% To portray this as a defeat is like calling the Roman Empire a failure. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodney Dangerduck Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 OP is dead on. Maybe Orlanthi / "Storm Tribe" aren't actually morally good "good guys", but they are clearly the intended target for RQG player characters. Which is a reasonable design decision by a small game company with limited resources. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byll Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Storm barbarians are an ideal background from which to grab a bunch of adventurers. Their culture promotes innovation, valour and the overturning of 'unreasonable' constraints. On the down side they seem to be rather too easily swayed to follow unscrupulous leaders who have great charisma and battlefield success, but veer off into strange novel hybrids of storm myth often with disastrous results. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfbrandi Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 56 minutes ago, Byll said: innovation … strange novel hybrids Don’t these two go naturally together? No innovation without novelty, and if you keep experimenting, sooner or later something will blow up in your face. Leaning into this gives them some of the charm of the Godlearners and the Lunars. Beats the hell out of yet another cattle raid and the conviction that 15% = none. 1 hour ago, Byll said: Their culture promotes innovation, valour and the overturning of ‘unreasonable’ constraints. On the down side they seem to be rather too easily swayed to follow unscrupulous leaders who have great charisma Does this mean that the Orlanthi are “code” for the people of the good old US of A? Combine conservatism and innovation, chin up, and push on to the far shore. The Lunars play to an Old World pessimism: we are not to be trusted, our leaders are not to be trusted, our gods deal with the Devil, and even if we are on the up now, it will all come crashing down again — inconstant ! If we cannot argue with ourselves, we are lost. Of course, things are never simple, and as the enemies engage, it becomes harder and harder to separate them. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps … for it may be that when we try to look at the enemy, we just see ourselves in the mirror. 😉 1 2 1 Quote NOTORIOUS VØID CULTIST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darius West Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 23 hours ago, Ageha said: So, ultimately, is a textual reason ever given for why Peloria is so pathetic and why the Sky Gods are so incredibly weak? As to why the Solar Pantheon seems to suck, well, it isn't dynamic and it doesn't embrace change. If you don't change your tactics, you become predictable, and that makes you lose. Dara Happa is hidebound, and the person of the Emperor is really the only hero of the story. As with Yelm before his death and before the fall of the Spike, everything revolves around the ruler, and everyone else is barely a footnote. Not so in Orlanthi society where respect for the individual is paramount and "nobody can make you do anything". The other important thing about Peloria is that they embrace Empire and centralized authority, even if they are the ones being subjugated (for the most part). Yes, we can point to the Sun Dragon of the Second Age, who sat as emperor for a time, and against whom the Solar Worshippers rebelled, and we can point to Jannisor who fought the Lunars, but for the most part they just want the feeling of security they get from knowing there is an Emperor in charge. As for the Sky Gods being incredibly weak, I have to disagree. Fire Elementals are the best elementals without a doubt. Yelorna cultists come armed with a machinegun spell. Sunbolt is stronger than Thunderbolt. And frankly, impaling weapons do vastly more damage on an impale than slashing or bludgeoning weapons can generally hope to achieve. The Phalanx formation is devastating. I have pitted really well-geared and heavily experienced Humakti and Orlanthi Rune levels against a phalanx and they couldn't cope with 8 pike attacks per round, despite their iron armor and shield spells combined. The issue is that the Orlanthi embrace change. Orlanth shows up with technical surprises, "Wandering Sun, Jealous Uncle, I have a new toy, see it?". The Lunars also know the trick of technical surprises, and if anything, incorporate it into their worship even more than the Orlanthi, at least until Argrath comes along. 2 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joerg Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 9 hours ago, Ageha said: I do really dislike how absolutely everything Yelm-related (and by extension the Peloria region and Dara Happan empire) seem to just suck at everything, particularly when at the same time the history still also tries to present them as important, dominant, players in the macro landscape, politically, culturally and religiously, of Genertela. Yelm made himself the perfect ruler for the age of perfection his actions (ending a more innocent period) created, until the consequences of those actions caught up with him. Yelm's period is called the Golden Age. It is the Age of (Godtime) Civilization, of ordered society creating something more than just the family community. There are civilizations "contemporary" to Yelm's reign which may have earlier and definitely indepenently developed civilization - Genert's Garden, Pamalt's Fields, the Kingdom of Logic with its arts (writing, architecture, seafaring, ... and last not least sorcery) or Vith's mystical rightness in the East with more tolerance for the disruptive side inside its extent. There are civilizations that built on earlier ones, and there are many forgotten earlier civilizations. Entekosiad makes the claim tha Brighteye usurped the role of celestial overseer from a previous "White Queen" who may have been a cyclical goddess in a sophist way solving a problem with ill intent. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: I know at least most of this probably stems from one root cause: Orlanth and the Orlanthi are designated 'good guys' for the setting and so must usually always come out on top over anything Yelm or Peloria-related in the end. That's more of a cyclical pattern both in Godtime and in history. Any historical age begins with Orlanthi humans at the pinnacle of human civlization (although the collapse of the EWF blasted the center of Orlanthi civiilization and distributed it among the foes or neutrals to the Dragonfriends). They soon get into conflict with the Solar Empire and get beaten badly, in part by those of their number who ally with the Solars, but then strike back at the end of the Age. (The Second Age was a bit weird, but such trends are present.) 9 hours ago, Ageha said: The Six Ages games even now make it so that the only important Yelmite group to come from this period ultimately all converted and became 'Rams' as well. The Six Ages games fail to acknowledge (so far) that the best and brightest of the Horse Warlord emperors in Peloria was the Hyaloring Vuranoste, the third emperor using the Jenarong rites to pass the Ten Tests. Unfortunately his sons failed to provide a successor, instead using up their pure sun magic in the struggle tghat led to the Bridling of Kargzant biding their free-roaming horse-loving god to the Sunpath of the re-awalened fragment(s) of Yelm at Day and retracing it at night. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Has Yelm or his representative mortal groups ever actually won any conflict against the Orlanthi outside the brief Lunar occupation of Dragon Pass? Plenty, usually in the second half of a historical Age. Dawn Age: the Battle of Night and Day was followed by almost three generations of Palangio ruling over the Orlanthi (outside of Lokamayadon's direct followers who were his allies) in Dragon Pass, Maniria and Ralios, enslaving or starving the Heortlings at least as bad as the potato famine hit Ireland. Lokamaydon had usurped their magics. Second/Imperial Age: The Orlanthi domination of Dara Happa lasted less than a generation before all Orlanthi control over the conquered lands of Dara Happa had been removed. The rich tribute from Dara Happa which was supposed to be shared with the trolls failed, and what had been intended as a fair share from that tribute to those who had contributed most in Dorastor became an onerous duty bleeding the Orlanthi white, which led to their fall-out with their former troll allies. That disunity was a solar triumph, too. The dragonfriends were a new thing that took control first of the Orlanthi core lands and then of Dara Happa, but it was the Dara Happans who overthrew the Dragon Sun emperor, then joined forces with the Carmanians and willing non-Heortling Orlanthi to destroy the dragonfriends. Their success led to the EWF becoming as oppressive as Arkat's Command had been, and losing their way from the intended greater draconic conciousness they had envisioned. More Orlanthi joined the fight against the EWF, spearheaded by Alakoring, whose successors joined forces with the foes of the EWF and destroyed the Orlanthi core lands in Dragon Pass twice (the second time mere hours before being destroyed by the dragons in the Dragonkill War). The Carmanians who came out on top after the Dragonkill disaster under the Bull Shahs and a revival of Spolite Darkness were overthrown by a Yelmic resurgence merging forces with the new Lunar Way. Then Sheng Seleris brought in a rivalling solar model - not to the advantage of the Orlanthi, even though the Kingdom of Tarsh was the leading force in pushing back Sheng's southern (Opili Nation, Praxian) allies, with a huge triumph at the Battle of Quintus Vale aided by the Lunarized Orlanthi of Sylila. The Yelm cult dragged the Lunar Way into the philosphical trap of the Empire, hindering its mystical ascension in a way reminiscent to the distraction of the EWF for cheap trick advances. Tatius the Bright rose to become a Yelmic rather than Yelmalian Palangio until he was eaten by the Brown Dragon. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: With the Second Council the Dara Happan Empire at least seems to achieve some sort of stalemate, though only after losing much of Peloria, if not most, to Orlanthi already, but come Arkat-Gbaji and the Pelorians just lose. Again. Sure. That's part of the historical cycle which starts with Orlanthi supremacy at the start of an age. The closure of the Second Age saw the Yelmalio cult (Orlanthi solars) in power everywhere south of Dara Happa proper, and the bull-Orlanthi influience Bull Shahs taking over Dara Happa, while south of Dragon Pass the Hendriki had acquired more than half of Esrolia, and after the 1042 forced incomplete ascension of the draconic leadership also the survivors in the ruined Pass region. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: (On that note, also, Yelm's an incredible pushover when it comes to his turf. Whilst Orlanthi have gone on to turn basically ALL of Genertela outside Kralolera, Teshnos, Pent and a small bit of Peloria into Orlanthi cultural and religious spaces Peloria has...not managed to export its culture or religion even once? The Bright Empire did push Yelm into the role of the World Emperor even in Malkioni lands. The Monomyth inherits the Bright Empire doctrine that it was Yelm who was slain by Orlanth, making him universal and pushing out earlier notions like Ehilm from Jrusteli / God Learner monomythizing, Other than the elephant rather than bird imagery, Somash in Teshnos is imperial Yelm - possibly reinforced with Sheng Seleris's conquests and exchange of literate administrators betwee his various conquests. Sheng Seleris ruling Peloria, Kralorela, Teshnos and almost conquering Vormain? Sheng is an alternative Yelmic ruler to Moonson. Also, the Solar Empire is the organizing structure in Teshnos and Vormain, and in a draconized way also in Kralorela. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Despite being said to be the 'heart of many great empires'? Is there a secret that only Orlanthi culture or religion actually ever spreads and grows and all others just shrink and become subordinated under Orlanthi? The Orlanthi culture was dominant at the Dawn, with the Dara Happan revival under Jenaong and Vuranoste dragged down by the barbarism of other Horse Warlord emperors. Avivath was the prophet of Yelm who re-kindled the urban solar culture as dominant overseers, aided and abetted by the Second Council, and then all but taking over the God Project leading to a Bright Empire rather than the Mystical Storm Empire. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Well, I guess different Western/Theyalan also spread to some extent, but usually only if they first accept Orlanth as being foremost in primacy in some way) Then, in the next bout, the EWF just conquers Dara Happa again. Here, nothing really to say, Dara Happa/Peloria just beat again. First, the dragonfriends beat the Traditionalist Orlanthi. Badly. The EWF conquest was not done by Storm Hill Barbarians, but by Solar Hill Barbarians become dragonfriends. While Obduran had demonstrated how Storm and Dragon could be united, his successor Isgangdrang took Storm away from the Orlanthi and transformed it into dragon power. Losing the mystical goal through his short cut fallacies, but still... We don't really know the human identity of the EWF Dragon Sun emperor, but I bet he was not a Dragon Pass Orlanthi but someone from around Imther when he joined the dragonfriend mystics presumably when they still were persecuted by the Council of Orlanthland and their Yelmalian allies at Domanand (now Mirin's Cross). 9 hours ago, Ageha said: (Also, Orlanthi keep being called in a lot of the text 'barbarians' and are often contrasted by being disorganized/decentralized against the 'imperial' Pelorians, but that seems bizarre and counterfactual. Orlanthi tribalism ad disobedience is rather different from the structured society Yelmic rule encourages and enforces. In 1984 RQ3 presented four levels of civilization - primitive, nomadic, barbarian and civilized. Respect for indigenous people has made two of these terms suspect. Still, Dara Happan views of the hill tribes uses the term barbarian from the in-world perspective. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Until the Lunar Empire no Pelorian Empire ever even managed to rule all of Peloria, they at most ruled most of northern Peloria. As Dara Happans, their influence reached down into central Saird, past Sylila and Vanch.Yelmic administrators were spread by the Bright Empire, and are welcomed by the Solar hill barbarians worshipping the Cold Sun. There is a map of the Sun Dome temples on the Well of Daliath... 9 hours ago, Ageha said: The Lunar Empire, the greatest Pelorian Empire by FAR only managed to finally rule all of Peloria, in a time where half of Peloria is now Orlanthi anyway, Half of Peloria has been Orlanthi since before the Great Flood. The pastoralist hlll folk made their incursions down the Rockwood and Nidan ranges. The origin of the Yolp Mountains and the reign of Daxdarius fall into the period around the Great Flood. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Meanwhile Orlanthi have been at the centre, or literally the leaders of, three massive empires spanning much of Genertela and the world even: The Unity Council, Arkat's Conquests and the EWF. It can be argued that the Orlanthi were subjects of these bodies - other than the Unity Council (which was not an empire, but the resulting Second Council became one), there were Orlanthi uprisings against each of these empires after initially being co-opted by these entities. The concept of Empire is alien to the tribal nature of the Orlanthi. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: The Orlanthi have a far, far, FAR greater track record as imperial conquerors than the Pelorians could ever hope to have. Orlanthi are raiders, but not administrators. The Dragon Emperor used draconized native administrators to maintain its hold on the empire, while the short Heortling occupation at the end of the Gbaji Wars attempted to do with their own administrators, and failed miserably. Both the Carmanians and Sheng Seleris used solar administrators for their conquests, as did the horse warlords at the Dawn. Without such solar administration, no long term occupation can be maintained, and longer terms of interregnum tend to lead to the rise of new dynasties (like e.g. Denesiod's). 9 hours ago, Ageha said: The Pelorians have literally failed to even maintain control of their full homeland, half of it now being culturally and religiouslly outright Orlanthi or Orlanthi-dominated, The Pelorians are a varied group of cultures, and their homelands are the river valleys of the Pelorian bowl. Sure, they share their grain goddess with the uplands in the foothills of the Rockwoods, so by that definition their "homeland" is shared. But that is about as much cultural unity you can find for "the Pelorians" whether you include or exclude the Pelorian Orlanthi. The Arcos Valley folk come in two major ethnicities - Rinliddic for the lower Arcos, Zarkozite goat hillfolk for the upper Arcos. They are two of the four non-Dara Happan ethnic groups traveling on Anaxial's Ark during the Great Flood. The Suvarian weeders are a third independent group of the same origin, even though they provided the last Anaxial-dynasty emperor Manimat. The Dara Happan Empire in its full extent would rule over all the people whose ancestors debarked from Anaxial's Ark. The dry lands during the flood, including the Syliling and Vanchite hills, would be included as border marches inhabited by settlers descended from the Ark peoples, expanding Dara Happan culture and influence into Saird and Dara Ni (at the Dawn First Council lands under Troll or Heortling domination). 9 hours ago, Ageha said: whilst Orlanthi have gone on to conquer virtually all Dragon Pass, Prax, Fronela, Kralolera, the East Isles, Fonrit, Umathela, Seshnela, Ralios and more at different points in their history and, in many of those areas, have permanently altered the cultures and religions there to be Orlanthi in nature. The (Heortling, plus a few other) Orlanthi were part of the Lifebringer/Lightbringer missionaries sent out to awaken those survivors of the Greater Darkness trapped in their PTSD even a century after the Dawn. Protected by the Shadowlords of Argan Argar (later the Kitori Shadowlords), they got into contact with the survival centers (Nochet, Obsidian Palace, Dragon's Eye, Korolstead and others) already before the Dawn. (Those other Orlanthi included Vanchites, Sylilings and other minor non-Heortling Sairdites as well as Manirian Vathmai Entruli and Harandings and the Esrolvuli Grandmothers tribe of Ezel and Nochet.) The Council lands included weeders like the Black Eel River Nogatendings and horticulturalist elf friends in Dara Ni who received the (apparently superior) Theyalan magic already before the Dawn. (How Rune Magic may have worked in the Silver Age is an interesting conundrum - while Heort is said to have furthered Hantrafal's ways of rune cult sacrifice, what deities were there before the Dawn that would respond to such sacrifice?) 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Like...Orlanthi are clearly the number 1 most imperial culture, so this weird emphasis on Peloria as the 'seat' of empires is just absolutely bizarre to me when they have some of the tiniest empires ever.) For the Third Age the prize might equally well go to the Pentans, the only group ever to rule over both Peloria, the Wastes and the Genertelan East. Orlanthi expansion by settlement was mainly a Godtime Late Golden/Storm Age phenomenon when warlike herders professing a kinship to their ungulate herds descended from the highlands and encroached on the lowlands, picking up transhumant pastoralist agriculture during their descent. For the Imperial Age, the God Learners were unrivalled for world-wide imperial presence, sparing only Carmania, the EWF (Dara Happa included in either), the Errinoru jungles and the further East Isles. The biggest empire of the Dawn Age would have been the Bright Empire co-founded by Orlanthi but trampling on the majority of the Orlanthi (enough for many of them to align themselves with soulless Malkioni), with the Vithelan sphere empires a lot less expansive (Kralorela, Teshnos, Vormain, various East Isles) except for the Mokato Thalassocracy and a few warlike precedessor confederations suppressing the antigod empires. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Then the Pelorians spend time dominated by the Carmanians who have an Air God (not Orlanth though, Storm Bull) as their chief deity. That is at best semi-true. The Carmanians have the Yelm-lookalike higher god Idovanus, one of the Jernotian Seven Celestials, a god who got inflated by Carmanos the Prophet as an expression of the Invisible God. The Bull is just a dynastic ancestor deity for their Malkioni hererodoxy, much like the preceding Lion cult was. There is the inheritance of the Spolites, a western Pelorian reaction to the Bright Empire exploring the dark side of illumination, at one time powerful in parts of Dara Happa, too, but crushed by Syranthir's mercenary refugees from God Learner-conquered Fronela. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Finally with the Lunar Empire the Pelorias experience perhaps the only period of dominance they've ever had since the Dawn (Sheng Seleris' bout withstanding for now) but we already know this story all just ends with the Hero Wars, Peloria losing (again) and once more the same result as always play out: Pelorians lose and some or other Orlanthi group triumphs over them. In this case Argarth seems so overpowered that I don't know why the Pelorians even kept fighting him since he seems to be basically invincible and stronger than the entire rest of the world. The Carmanians (except for their ruling castes of mixed Pelandan and Western descent) are Pelorians, too. Eastern Carmania now is an integral part of the Lunar Heartlands, the Oronin and Doblian satrapies. Their culture contributed to the Lunar Way about as much as the Dara Happan culture or the Rinliddic variation on Dara Happa. In terms of manpower, Argrath has the much smaller population base behind him. He never conquered Esrolia, only became its protector. Esrolian military was rarely useful in his struggles in the north, and played about as much a role in his campaigns as did Italian forces in the Carolingian fights against the Vikings. They provide a financial and logistical base, that I grant you, at least until they are hit by the Reforestation and the flooding. One constant source of fighting power for Argrath are the excess young males out of Prax which come in waves as new Praxian boys get initiated into adulthood. The Praxians expand a lot under Argrath, establishing no-longer-quite Praxian pastoral overlordships in Orlanthi lands like they had done since their rewards for the participation in the victory of Argentium Thri'ile. Some of them may adopt a variant Orlanthi way over time, or they may adopt Solar ways - both happened in the Dawn Age, in Sylila and Kostaddi. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Even in the dynamics of the world this seems pretty apparent. Orlanthi numbers exceed Pelorians by a significant margin even though Peloria is a deeply urbanized society focused in an incredibly fertile bowl with a much more centralized population. By this logic, the hispanic-speaking population of our planet are the supreme rulers. You are assuming an Orlanthi unity that never happens. Even with the magic of Orlanth Rex (a solar Ralian magic carried to the Heortlings by Alakoring?) Argrath has almost as many Orlanthi opponents that may become hesitant mercenary allies at best and open foes at worst. Dara Happa offers direct fealty of the subjects to the Emperor. Orlanthi fealty is only to the immediate leader - a difference similar to the difference in centralist kingship between medieval France and the Holy Roman Empire. Ralios is looking westward, fighting the Rokari kingdom of Tanisor as their evil emperor. Maniria is beset by the Reforestation and whatever bad news may emerge from Ramalia. Esrolia is nervously watching the seas, whether for Wolf Pirates or semi-uindead Waertagi returnees from Hell, as well as the Aldryami reclamation of agricultural lands for forestation. Admittedly that is a problem for the Pelorians, too, as for civilized Fronela and Ralios. Much of Argrath's most populous Orlanthi territory is going to be flooded when the ice floe gnawed off Valind#s Glacier blocks the Maelstrom for a year. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Orlanthi religion is VASTLY more widespread than Pelorian, than any other religion honestly. While that is true, a lot of the Orlanthi religious influence has Malkioni or non-human overlords (Umathela, Fornoar, Safelster, Fronela, Carmania). A significant portion of the Orlanhi has solar- or Lunar-worshipping rulers, too. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Again, they seem to be the only people in all of Glorantha who actually expand, dominate and assimilate others. Patently wrong. This honor goes to the Malkioni. The Tanisorans are basically Malkionized Ralians, conquered from the Bright Empire, and so are the Safelstrans (conquered by the Jrusteli after Arkat's companions received overlordships there). The Old Seshnegi assimilated the greater portion of the Pendali-ruled natives of that peninsula, plus the natives of the Tanier Valley. The Fornoari - Ehilm-worshipping Enerali who had accepted Lightbringer Ways - are now the main population of the "Kingdom of Seshnela". In Fronela, the Enjoreli bull people have been transformed into Hrestoli Malkioni, with a few bull-Orlanthi holding out on the fringes. The Janubian city states are the creation of the riverine Waertagi, as are the Sweet Sea and Poralistor river folk who fell to the Carmanians and then the Lunars. Drowned Slontos and Jrustela as well as coastal Umathela has former Orlanthi more or less firmly Malkionized, with hardly any Brithini ancestry in either Slontos or surviving Umathela. (Jrustela actually had a good amount of Brithini and Fornoari ancestry, possibly 70%.) Vadeli ways have been inherited by the Fonritians, one of the most populous human civilizations. Teshnos and Kralorela managed to throw off the Malkioni influences, as did the Arbennan Doraddi of Jolar. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: All other cultures and religions basically have one homeland region which they have never managed to leave and, most of the time, half of that homeland region is now Orlanthi culturally and religiously now. The God Learners spread the Theyalan mode of Rune Magic to Fonrit, Teshnos and possibly Kralorela. The Vithelan east may have a different variant. Errinoru probably brought some of the Theyalan aldryami mode to the jungles. Argan Argar spread the Theyalan mode among the trolls, infusing Kyger Litor and Zorak Zoran, too. The Artmali survivors never quite acquired that, and apparently the Loper-riding Zaranistangi didn't either, or perhaps from their Arkati allies. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Which is fine but at this point it just remains to me the question of why anyone would bother worshiping Yelm when Yelm's entire histoy post-Dawn is that his worshipers just lose time and time again in every single war they ever have against anyone even vaguely Orlanthi? At this point I'd think any pragmatic human would realize Yelm, and Peloria, are pretty hopeless and mass conversion to Orlanth worship is the only way to actually achieve any meaningful success (particularly now that the only seeming counterargument, the Lunars, have been definitively crushed by Orlanthi as well). Peloria has (acquired) a need for imperial order, something the Orlanthi cannot provide. The horse warlords could, if only a less codified form than their urban precedessors (who failed to overcome the Greater Darkness on their own except possibly in Manimati dismembered exile or Alkothi hellspawn tyranny) and their successors who infused the Second Council with their ways, taking it away from the Orlanthi. Ralian solar overlordship became the Nralarite Flamesword dynasty in Seshnela and Jrustela, but yielded Jrusteli emperorship to the more warlike descendants of Damol, Seshnegi pagans with maternal descent from Froalar who adopted Malkionism either in Silver Empire Seshnela or in the religious awakening of Abiding Book Jrustela). The Lunar Empire resurges with the Eel-Ariash machinations, like Phargentes II Takenegi and Jar-eel apotheosizing as the new face of Sedenya, surpassing her current role as mere avatar of the Red Moon. I don't see evidence for Argrath managing to conquer Dara Happa - at the height of his power in the north, he incites the dismemberment and fall-out of the Red Moon. IMO this is going to be co-opted by Jar-eel for her apotheosis, completing the Eel-Ariash scheme. The Eel-Ariash might be the worst foe of imperial Dara Happa, although their scion Phargentes II wields it to its greatest extent - all the way to the Neliomi and Rozgali Seas. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: So, why does anyone serve Yelm? His magic seems pathetic and weak. His bureaucracy rules supreme. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: His sons lose virtually every fight they get into. Yelmalio does have his victories with the right (Theyalan) allies. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Every single empire dedicated to him is crushed by some or other Orlanthi power in swiftly. Creating at best a short Orlanthi interregnum. The EWF Dragon Sun was the longest lasting one, possibly tied with Shah Cartavar (whose son decided to become the Yelmic emperor). Cartavar was a Spolite-leaning bull shah ruling through Carmanos' Malkioni powers of kingship, not at all an Orlanthi. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: I don't think a Pelorian Yelm-Pantheon Empire has ever actually even won a single battle (that I can find mention of in the books) against the Orlanthi. The Orlanthi are one of the less important foes of the Dara Happans - unpleasant raiders at times, although the Ram Folk was soundly defeated and enslaved by Urvairinus after their destruction of Elempur, the city of archers. Their enslaved iron ram deity served as the strong point against the forces of the Glacier. The Battle of Night And Day was won by Palangio, a Rinliddic Dara Happan stealing the barbarian sun god, subsequently enslaving or starving the Heortlings to the point that none of the Heortling tribes existed any more a century after the Gbaji Wars. Karvanyar overthrowing the Dragon Sun Emperor, his three grandsons dividing Peloria into Dara Happa, Carmania and Saird jointly defeating the EWF, weakening it enough that the dragonewts pulled the plug, and then in 1042 the three allied kingdoms plundered Dragon Pass, and destroyed it in the week before getting eaten by the dragons in the Dragonkill 78 years later. The (Solar-descended) Pentans (including descendants of survivors of Nivorah who disobeyed Manarlarvus and his dome project) had been made enemies through the genocidal pogromes following the battle of Argentium Thri'ile and were the greater threat to Urban Dara Happa, even though parts of urban Dara Happa allied with Sheng Seleris against Moonson. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Discounting the Lunar Empire for now since they are Lunar-Pantheon predominantly and not Yelm. Don't discount them .- their Dara Happan emperor exterminated all the anti-Lunar elements in the Yelm cult alongside Sheng Seleris. That downgrading of Yelm was a Pelorian inside job, and surgically careful to retain imperial authority derived from Yelm. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Or, I guess, the macro question here: why worship anyone but Orlanth? Why worship that illiterate brute under the slippered heels of his dominant faux-docile ruthless wife? He is a useful idiot creating mayhem where he is pointed at. The one thing he did on his own (successfully defending the sky realm against Chaos) allowed the surface world to get ravaged by Chaos, upon which he had to be tricked to accept more sensible advisors (LM, CA, Issaries, even Eurmal) to go and beg for the forgiveness of Yelm. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: In a world where gods are real and have explicit power levels which let them defeat other gods, and where Orlanth has shown time and time again in every clash in the material world that (outside of Wakboth) he is simply stronger than all other gods, what incentive is there to worship anyone else? You worship Orlanth, you live in a world where fights between testosterone-drunk deities trample everything you own. You worship Yelm, and those bullies fight elsewhere most of the time. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: More thant that: in a world where only one group of humans seem to win all conflicts and be better than everyone at everything, the Orlanthi, what is the point? Orlanthi are clearly set to conquer the world, they've already almost done it multiple times, and they only ever fall in truth to their own infighting. No external force is ever actually able to threaten them unless, like the Unity Council and EWF, they first fight among themselves. Orlanthi infights are guaranteed, and it is rare that they can postpone those inevitable falling outs long enough to build something greater. The rise of the dragonfriends was a civil war that lasted almost 200 years before the EWF finally emerged from urban Orlanthland. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: Like, if I was a Pelorian I'd just accept that after a 1600 year history of getting our butts kicked by the Orlanthi every time, of having our homeland conquered by them twice, of most of the south of our homeland now largely being Orlanthi in nature anyway, it is pretty obvious we're just clearly losers and we need to just convert and assimilate because that's already happening. Orlanth doesn't provide an emperor who keeps the bad people out. Instead, he consorts with even worse bullies. Even the Crimson Bat is less disruptive to Pelorian life. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: I mean is there any region in Genertela which is traditionally Orlanthi where a different culture/religion has come to power like happened in Southern Peloria which is mostly Orlanthi now? Maybe in Pamaltela, I have not yet read as much about them. Southern Peloria has been Orlanthi since the Golden Age, since Murharzarm's reign. It was the fringes where bad things like Orlanthi or trolls happened. Yamsur's descendant Hyalor acculturated some of these dry-during-the-Great-Flood tribes, giving rise to the horse warlords. 9 hours ago, Ageha said: So, ultimately, is a textual reason ever given for why Peloria is so pathetic and why the Sky Gods are so incredibly weak? There is the deep cultural difference between wheat and barley agriculturalists vs. rice agriculturalists. The Dara Happans are rice agriculturalists, largely independent of Pelora the grain goddess. While they can administrate barley and grain farmers, those are only somewhat docile if they require irrigation for their crops. Those who don't spell trouble. irrigation works are a unifying task, way beyond the road upkeep worship of the Sartarite toll-takers. Overseen by Yelm, accounted by Buserian, built by Lodril's get. The vast majority of the Pelorian males worship Lodril, a fun manly god worthy of worship. He builds, he fights, he has lots of sex, with the blessing of his main wife, unlike Orlanth who has to choose most of his mistresses from his (part-time) male companions like Heler or Mastakos, possibly even Elmal, or who even becomes a woman at times (Vinga). Muich like Orlanth, Lodril leaves the heavy thinking to others, like Yelm, but when the result of such rationality hurts, he rebels, hard and effectively, toppling what oppresses his people. In his more reflective moments, Lodril becomes Turos or even KetTuros, the city-builder. When needing powerful primal magic, he becomes the naked painter of sacred symbols, or he erupts in hot lava. Lodril is lord of part of the Underworld, providing something Orlanth can't. He has direct marital access to the vaults of Asrelia, unlike his son-in-law Orlanth who has to go through his wife, Lodril's daughter. That scheming woman keeps Orlanth on a leash most of the time, not that her father would reap any benefit from that, but Lodril has a multitude of children more grateful than Ernalda. Peloria and especially lowland Peloria is the land of Lodril. Sure, Yelm gets to be the aloof emperor above who makes up rules that may be convenient to follow at times, and convenient to disregard at other times. Yelm is extremely selective in allowing who may worship him directly. Except when it comes to nomadic horse riders, where every second or third ass in a saddle will be eligible, or as spawn of the daughters of the Red Emperor. You don't get to choose to initiate to Yelm, you get chosen by birthright. 2 4 2 Quote Telling how it is excessive verbis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ageha Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 Thanks for the responses, I appreciate it. Gave me lots to think about and also helped me to come to my conclusion. After this and checking out some further stuff in the books and on well of daliath I can definitely say though that Runequest is not the game for me, I will stick to Call of Cthulhu. I love the effort, respect it, and think many ideas are great, but Glorantha’s narrative history is just a litany of the Pelorians getting their butts kicked over and over and over by the Orlanthi who are just overwhelmingly textually presented as better in every way. Narratively the Orlanthi have a bigger metropolis than Peloria even though Peloria’s defining shtick is being the ‘city’ people. I’m not fond of dynamics such as this in any settings or stories and Orlanthi just clearly being this designated ‘awesome’ people and Pelorians these perennial losers kill most of my motivation to play the game. The Pelorians are such underdogs with a history of almost nothing but being conquered and their homelands slowly being colonized and settled and converted into Orlanthi dominated lands I just feel bad for them. So, yeah, I don’t like such one-sided arrangements or such clear singling out of only one group of people as exceptional, I am just not a fan of it. Furthermore, the knowledge that the entire threat of the Red Moon and the Lunar Empire are already destroyed and defeated just makes me uninterested to actually play anything. I don’t really care about adventures and such because the ending is already explicitly written: Argarth will beat the Lunar Empire and Sheng on multiple occasions, will destroy the Red Moon and the Empire(s) and conquer most of the Provinces and maybe even more. Just not interesting to me. Like playing 40k but where my codex tells me explicitly already my faction is already dead, absolutely no narrative interest or tension then for me personally. I’m gonna give a general response because I don’t think necessarily everyone will be interested in reading my detailed responses to each segment. So, general response: · I didn’t feel there was much substantive actually given concerning my core conceit here. A lot of the answers didn’t really address my query “Why is Peloria/Dara Happa discussed as a major hegemonic/imperial centre when in its history it has never been close to that except for, briefly, during the Lunar Empire.” Instead, a lot of the answers I think misinterpreted my query and dealt with metrics I wasn’t talking about. Nothing really disputed in any material way the simply existing facts that despite many of the books insisting Peloria was some hegemonic centre of power it has, save for the Lunar Empire, failed to ever be so and has lost every single war it has fought against Orlanthi hegemons, including being conquered by Orlanthi hegemons, with the sole exception of the Lunar Empire’s century of ascendancy ending with Argath. My core concern still remains: why does Peloria lose every single significant engagement, fail to build any serious empires compared to the history of empire building on a far vaster scale we see from the Orlanthi, yet still get treated as some sort of hegemonic centre? Furthermore, when Orlanthi hegemons rise they, like all hegemons in reality do, bring about the conversion of conquered spaces to their cultural and religious sphere. We see this in the West, southern Peloria, Umathela etc. etc. but Pelorian culture has simply never successfully spread to and converted another region in a similar fashion, even the Lunar Empire’s 400 year reign of Peloria did not diminish the explicitly stated Orlanthi dominance of the ‘Provinces’ per the Guide to Glorantha. Even numbers support this, with Pelorians being definitively given as the smallest major culture of Genertela. Again, this explicitly does not accord with hegemonic power. When the Achamenids became hegemonic it saw the expansion of Iranian culture to most of the Near East, the Argeads and their Diadochi led to the cultural Hellenization of much of the eastern Mediterranean world, Pax Romana saw incredible numerous and diffuse groups adopt and identify as Roman, in both culture and religion and Sinicization under successive Dynasties achieved much the same. All evidence indicates that Peloria has never been, with the sole exception of the Lunar Empire, anything like a hegemonic or imperial force of note. · I found the historical comparisons not convincing. The Roman Empire? Alexander the Great? The boundaries of these states extended WELL beyond the traditional homelands or powerbases of the respective city and individual. Again, to emphasize, the Lunar Empire is the first Pelorian Empire in history to just manage to secure all of their homeland even. To compare it to the Argead Empire (and its Diadochi) who successfully united their homeland of Macedon, dominated their northern neighbours, conquered almost all of the independent Greek Polis (already considered major powers at the time) and then proceeded to defeat and conquer the Achamenid Empire, the hyper power of their time, before also incorporating many northern Indian kingdoms just does not fit at all. The EWF, Arkat or Sheng are clearly the only comparable scopes there. The Lunar Empire would be similar if Alexander conquered Macedon, then maybe conquered Thrace for a century, then briefly held the Greek Polities for 30 years before his whole empire was destroyed. Similarly, the Roman Republic – Empire was able to unite their home territory very early in their history (comparatively of course, as all things in history are) and then spread out to vastly, vastly, more than that. To compare the Lunar Empire to that is simply not appropriate. The Lunar Empire secures Peloria, yes. They then, for about 30 years, secure all of Dragon Pass and Prax. That is, it. That is the extent of their Imperial rule. That is a far cry from what Orlanthi had already achieved centuries before and it is also the greatest extent of Pelorian conquest in history. I just do not think you can compare the Lunar Empire to the Roman Empire at all. · What I do find convincing is the point that Dara Happa isn’t actually that important. The mistake is in thinking of it as a hegemonic centre for Solar Pantheon worship and that, instead, this should be shifted to Pentans. I get this a little, Pentans certainly do rule Peloria early on, the first of Peloria’s many, many, MANY conquerors and the Celestial Empire is definitely far more comparable to what Orlanthi hegemons have achieved than anything Peloria ever manages, uniting virtually all of Genertela east of the Wastes and then also subduing Prax and much of Peloria. That, I can kind of buy, but then reinforces to me that it is a completely informed trait that the books keep stressing Peloria, and Dara Happa in particular, as some important hegemonic force in history. Put simply, since time actually began, Dara Happa’s history is (with the exception of the Lunar period) a history of hastily trying to respond to foreign aggression, losing influence and primacy over southern Peloria, and ultimately being repeatedly conquered by Pentans, Malkioni and Orlanthi. French Desperate WindChild: Quote Are they ? Are people good when they are able to kill another clan just because their ancestors did, even if they don’t know the root cause or because the first event was an insult 200 years ago ? You’re right, I should have said ‘protagonists’ instead of ‘good guys’. I get what you mean and, to be clear, I don’t think the Air Pantheon or the Orlanthi are ‘morally good’, they are pretty horrific in their warmongering, and they are explicitly the most successful imperialists in the history of Glorantha, which is explicitly horrific and there is nothing good about it. They are, however, clearly written as the protagonists of the entire world, defeating all their enemies repeatedly, establishing by far the strongest hegemons and being the largest culture and religion across the world. Quote does Alexander the Great’s empire suck ? How many years did survive his empire ? did Roman Empire suck ? But there is no more Roman Empire ? Did Ancient Greek cities suck ? They were dominated by Rome after all ? So, as I already said I don’t find these historical comparisons convincing. What I will add on here though: yes, post the conquest of the Greek City-States by Rome they were never, ever, considered major hegemonic powers again. Even before that, post the King’s Peace the status of the Greek City-States as powerful polities was past. Sparta, Athena and Thebes were not considered dominant players as they had been before. When Alexander died and the resulting Diadochi wars gave space for independent Greek polities again none of them became major players except for the newer Epirus and the Hellenic Eastern regimes, none of them the classical Greek City-States of old. That is the thing about hegemonic primacy. If conquered and definitively crushed and defeated it is rarely retained. Not never. But rarely. Following the King’s Peace, the Greek City-States never were a hegemonic force again, and not treated as such by their geopolitical peers either. Similarly post Dara Happa’s third conquest by foreign forces, and post Peloria’s loss of primacy and influence across their entire southern half, the idea of anyone considering them a serious hegemonic centre is laughable. Particularly after Argarth destroys the entire Lunar Empire as well. Spoiler why some people worship the sun and not the air ? Because some want to live in peace even if the price is less freedom. They don’t want to fight for a clan chief against another clan chief every year. why some people worship the air and not the sun ? Because they praise freedom even if the price is more risks, more conflict. I get what you mean here and, fair enough, not all people want to just accumulate further power to themselves. However, states do. History shows time and time again that states will rapidly adopt and change to whatever weapons and tools seem to be most effective at securing their expansion of power. In that case, considering the Pelorian rulers have seen on three separate occasions that in any largescale conflict against the Air Pantheon the Sky Pantheon always loses the fact that the government and state officials, not the people, have not converted to worship of the Air Pantheon makes no sense. If I am a ruler of Dara Happa my first interest is maintaining and expanding my own power. I can see in my own recent history that every time a Pelorian and Orlanthi hegemon have clashed, from Arkat through the EWF to Argarth, the Orlanthi hegemon has ALWAYS ultimately triumphed. Thus, I know what the more effective tool is for securing my power and dominance better. It is just rational. That is, at least, my view of it. Thank you for the insights though, I appreciate it! Scott-martin: Quote This whole post is a real cri de cœur, thank you. To start by pulling this particular thread, the history of the West IMG (including Umathela) is largely a narrative of "malkionization" as the scattered storm-leaning communities (and others) assimilate into the sorcerous framework one way or another. From what we know now it's also likely that archaic eastern storm people (call them "kaharites" if you like) got folded into modern Kralorelan society but there's still a lot of work left to do there. I’m not exactly sure what you mean, so I apologize in advance if maybe I'm misrepresenting anything with my response. Hybridization between Malkioni and Orlanthi is definitely the defining feature of Western Genertela, for sure, but that is sort of what I am saying. Orlanthi culture has gone on to dominate much of Western Genertela, with some regions in the Guide to Glorantha Volume 1 just explicitly being described as Orlanthi now. Again, we have this pattern that Orlanthi seems to be the only culture which has the ability to change the dominant culture of a region, with many prior Malkioni and Pelorian regions now in the Guide to Glorantha Vol 1 being described as culturally dominated by Orlanthi peoples. I’ll admit I don’t know much about Orlanthi-types in Kralorela so I’ll defer to you on that. Quote More broadly, I think that for most of history Dara Happa is actually winning through persistence and organization. They excel at continuity. Their aggressions tend to be symbolic and directed at suppressing internal rivalries. They can do this successfully for a very long time. When they are winning, the histories gloss over centuries where "not much happened" . . . change is slow, routine and bureaucracy take hold, the system works because it works. They never really lose in these periods because there's no need to even have a real fight about anything. Something like a golden age prevails. I think we are talking past each other here perhaps: I’m defining success here by the metric of the books repeatedly stressing Dara Happa as a hegemonic centre of Imperial Power. It is, very clearly, not that considering its Pentan neighbours (and far more its Orlanthi ones) are explicitly clearly far greater hegemonic forces which regularly conquer all of Peloria whilst Dara Happa has barely ever managed to even conquer all of Peloria. Furthermore, it is clearly not a major hegemonic power since a hallmark of such status is cultural expansion and Peloria, rather than a spreading culture, explicitly has seen almost half of it lose its Pelorian culture with, again, the Guide to Glorantha describing the Provinces as mostly Orlanthi now, not Pelorian. In this regard, unsurprisingly considering the well of daliath and the Guide to Glorantha both describe Pelorian/Lunar as the smallest major cultures of Genertela, the Pelorians have been in a precipitous decline since the 1st age, Orlanthi culture and Air-Pantheon Worship steadily rising from the south to convert first all of Southern Peloria and now by the time of Argarth reaching even Saird. Meanwhile, by contrast, Peloria has never successfully altered the cultural make-up of any territory to be Pelorian or Sky-Pantheon Worship. So, the fact that there might be periods where Dara Happa simply insularly operates fine when one of its many conquerors is not currently in power isn’t meeting the criterion for success here that I am discussing. I’m not saying there aren’t periods where small little Dara Happa putters on unnoticed by the great Orlanthi and Malkioni Empires of the world, I’m saying that Dara Happa clearly has no pre-Lunar history as a hegemonic or imperial core. Furthermore, I’ll be honest, I don’t even know how true it is that there are long stretches of time where northern Peloria just operates as a sovereign state. At the start of the Dawn, they are conquered by Pentans. Then they are briefly conquered by the Council before forming an independent Empire only as a desperate reaction to conquest. This empire then knows only war until the point where it is willing to become a part of Dorastor’s Broken Council, the inheriting polity of the Orlanthi-shaped council. Dara Happa then enjoys a time of some respite as part of this hybrid regime before being decisively defeated and conquered by Orlanthi, ending with the emperor’s surrender at Yelm’s Footstool to an explicitly Theyalan host. Peloria is then explicitly ruled over by Orlanthi. Eventually the Dara Happans throw off the Orlanthi rulers and what follows is seemingly the longest period of peace Dara Happa knows, but even this is not a time of great power as Dara Happa still remains just a small empire limited to northern Peloria, whilst by now most of its southern homeland is largely converting to Orlanthi and Pelorian culture is shrinking. Then comes the EWF and Peloria is, for the second time, completely conquered by Orlanthi and Carmanians (Theyalan people with an Air Deity as their most popular deity). Ultimately Dara Happa gets independent of the EWF only to immediately be conquered by Carmania. Then we get the Lunar Empire and, there, I fully agree that the Lunar Empire is the one period of some degree of Pelorian dominance. For the first time in Pelorian history they are even able to secure their homeland, though we know ultimately the Lunar Empire is also doomed to collapse and Argarth will conquer, at the least, all the Lunar Provinces if not also the rest of Peloria (putting Peloria under Orlanthi rule for a third time if he does so). So, I don’t quite see their history as having long stretches of relative autonomy. At most they have post the Arkat Wars and during the Lunar Empire two periods of relative autonomous stability, but in only one of those periods do they establish themselves as anything resembling a hegemonic power and, even then, a very small power compared to what has come before. Quote But when the Dara Happan system hits its limit, discontinuities force events and "storm" emerges in all its unpredictability. Most of the time these disruptions are reincorporated into the system one way or another through institutional channels like Lodril but occasionally the trouble goes all the way to the top and the unchanging regime changes, complete with plenty of moral and intellectual turmoil as the new winners work to justify their ascendent positions and the losers struggle to rationalize the defeat. These moments of transformation are interesting to historians and gamers alike. The game is not coincidentally set in an era when the solar order is stretching too far and storm forces have started to multiply in the margins. It's a dangerous time of high adventure. I’m afraid I don’t exactly see the relevance of this. At least from what I’ve read Peloria/Dara Happa’s collapse are almost always just the result of external conquest: Pentans, Orlanthi or Carmanian. I don’t quite see where the internal aspect comes into this. Considering we’ve seen how southern Peloria was converted to Orlanthi culture it is quite clear that when ruled over by Orlanthi Pelorian culture does just assimilate and abandon the Sky-Pantheon for the Air-Pantheon instead. A rational decision to make when you cannot defeat your conquerors and one defeated people have made throughout history. To give just my two cents: it is pretty clear Pelorian Culture and Sky-worship (as it is in Peloria) is doomed to extinction at the hands of Orlanthi and Air-Pantheon encroachment. We’ve already seen between the 1st and 2nd Ages Orlanthi culture and Air-Pantheon come to dominate southern Peloria and with Orlanthi conquests set to now undo the Lunar Empire as well, the only Pelorian polity to ever seem to be able to offer some resistance, it is probably just a matter of time before northern Peloria follows suit and, like Fronela and Ralios, Peloria just becomes another syncretised Orlanthi Air-dominated region. This is, at least, my perspective on this, particularly after reading the current crop of books and their consistent insistence on the very large scope of Orlanthi cultural and religious spread and frequent conquest of Peloria by Orlanthi regimes. Jeff: Quote A few thoughts. Dara Happa properly speaking consists of an ancient confederation of three cities along the lower Oslir River - Yuthuppa, Raibanth, and Alkoth - plus their colonies and dependencies. They've been an important confederation for over a thousand years, although sometimes have been ruled by outsiders. Yeah, that’s why I mentioned both Dara Happa and Peloria. More broadly speaking I am discussing the Pelorians, the indigenous people of the Pelorian basin, but as Dara Happa is the only significant indigenous polity to every emerge from Peloria it was just where my focus was (before the Lunar Empire of course). Indeed, they very much resemble to me the historical mercantile polities of the Bay of Bengal. Very wealthy, but with little power and so almost always falling under the rulership of some or other stronger state which could militarily conquer them but found advantage in allowing them to carry on much as they had. As a polity Dara Happa must have one of the longest track records for being conquered by foreign powers in all of Glorantha: first by Pentans, then Dorastor, then Orlanthi, then Orlanthi again, then Carmanians, then Pentans and now probably Orlanthi again after the Hero Wars. Quote Dara Happa has been a very successful confederation - which is usually the source of its trouble. It is powerful and rich enough to have pretensions of universal rule - which twice it has come close to making a reality (the Golden Empire and the Lunar Empire). The Orlanthi have pulled that off once (the EWF - the High Council was NOT an empire but an alliance of groups where humanity was in the minority, and Arkat gave rule to the trolls, not the Orlanthi). Unlike the Orlanthi, Dara Happa has an unbroken history - it didn't lose the core of civilization to the Dragonkill War. I’m going to be honest I don’t see how it could ever have pretensions to universal rule. The Golden Empire I’m not really interested in, that was a literal divine hegemony, and it was ended by Orlanth anyway so it was again defeated by Air Gods, but I’m only interested in the states once time actually exists. Even at the height of its power (pre-Lunar) Dara Happa never controlled more than just northern Peloria. There are no other nations considered ‘Pelorian’ outside of the Dara Happan Empire either. Meanwhile polities explicitly described in Guide to Glorantha Vol 1 as Orlanthi and Orlanthi-dominated rule much of Fronela, Ralios, all of Dragon Pass, some of Prax and much of Kethaela. If we look at the Lunar Empire, undoubtedly the strongest native Pelorian hegemon in history, it still had a maximum extent of just securing Peloria, Dragon Pass and some of Prax and the Holy Country. It also lost almost all its lands outside Peloria in an about 30-year span and then proceeded to in one lifetime lose all the Provinces and collapse 3 times in quick succession. I don’t really feel like that can be compared to something like the EWF at all. Even Arkat established longer Orlanthi rule over Peloria and that was still not actually such a long period. I will admit it I find it kind of ironic that the Dragonkill War, a war mostly about Pelorians getting killed, also as a side-effect wiped out the Orlanthi civilizations of Dragon Pass even though they actually tried to help the dragons! Quote Yelm is one of the three most broadly powerful cults in terms of its range of Rune Spells (the others not surprising are Ernalda and Orlanth). He gets access to Shield, Sunspear, Truespear (through a subcult), Fire Elementals of all sizes, and a LOT more. His cult is able to claim with a straight face that he summoned his murderer before him and forced him to make amends in order to revive the world. I’ll admit for me this sort of technical assessment does not help. One can describe the specifications of a weapon but if that weapon in multiple conflicts fails to defeat your enemies, then the specifications of the weapon are irrelevant, your enemies clearly have stronger weapons. Yelm’s worshiping forces have time and again demonstrated that in war they will ALWAYS lose to Orlanth. Dara Happa was conquered by Orlanthi under Arkat, the Pentans before them were defeated by the Unity Council which worshiped the Lightbringers, Dara Happa was again defeated by the Orlanthi under the EWF and by the Carmanians who have connections to the Air Gods and, finally, both the Lunar Empire and Sheng Seleris were defeated and destroyed by Argarth. In every war we see always that ultimately it is always Air Gods that defeat Sky Gods. If your weapon never manages to defeat your opponent, it is not a worthwhile weapon. Intelligent polities adapt to more effective weapons as the number one driving priority of states is the securing and expansion of their own power. Also, that last part seems to clash with the Lightbringer myth which is far more widely spread which definitely doesn’t say that Orlanth went against his will to see Yelm and instead puts emphasis mostly on Orlanth willingly and voluntarily doing this action and securing recognition from Yelm for it. The way I see it from the books Yelm is, pretty clearly, a loser. Quote Another thing to think about. We tend to assume that Dara Happa is THE solar civilization. But of course it is not. The Pentans have nearly as good a claim to this as Dara Happa. The Horse Lords ruled Dara Happa at the Dawn. They stopped the expansion of the Unity Council and fought the Second Council to a standstill (until the cities of Dara Happa rebelled). And in the Third Age, they ruled most of Peloria, Prax, Kralorela, and Teshnos, making them the rulers of a quarter of mortal humans in Glorantha. I find this very interesting though, thank you for bringing it to my attention! I hadn’t thought of it before but Pent is the more powerful between them and Peloria, so this is something I’ll read up on. I’ll admit though I just read the Cults: Mythology book today and it says the Second Council decisively crushed the Pentans and that only after that were they fought to a standstill by the Dara Happan Empire. I assume this Third Age Empire is the Sheng one? A pity, again, it ended the moment it clashed with any Orlanthi force. Can Air Pantheon Empires never actually be defeated by Sky Pantheon Empires? Blegh, not a fan of that personally. Whole history just seems like a litany of Air-worshiping peoples always beating Sky-worshiping peoples, I find that uninteresting personally. Richard S: Quote I think that, while Yelm might have overall less initiates than Orlanth, his cult has at least as much if not more influence than the latter. Since Yelm's cult itself has a very hierarchical structure, and because his priests have divine authority over pretty much every other solar cult, Yelmites naturally can exert their influence much more easily and over a wider area than their Orlanthi counterparts. Orlanth's cult, on the other hand, doesn't have a strong central organization and only has as much authority as his priests can personally acquire through family, friends, and/or violence; even his associated cults are only held together by voluntary bonds, or by Orlanth continually beating them up. I don’t quite feel I agree with this. When going through the Guide to Glorantha Books they frequently make mention of many nations as having ‘Orlanthi’ culture and ‘Orlanth’ religion. Meanwhile there is just VERY little mention of nations with ‘Pelorian’ culture or ‘Yelm’ religion. Considering just the big discrepancy in population numbers given, and with so many more cultures worshiping Orlanth than Yelm, I just don’t think it is possible for Yelm’s cult to have anywhere near the influence of Orlanth’s. I mean Orlanth’s Cult is THE dominant cult throughout all of Dragon Pass, much of the Holy Country, much of Fronela, Ralios and the Jrusteli. By contrast Yelm’s cult is described as dominant only in northern Peloria and, even then, it is now eclipsed by the Red Goddess. To be blunt, per the numbers given at the back of the Cults: Mythology book about number of cult members throughout the Lunar Empire, Maniria, Holy Country, Prax and Dragon Pass Yelm is actually a pretty small deity with rather low numbers. Metcalph: Quote Conquest of the Theyalans at the battle of Night and Day. Lasted several decades before the Orlanthi hired Trolls and Malkioni to do their dirty work for them. Expulsion of Orlanth Dragonfriend from their lands. Defeat of Jannisor. Defeat of the Kynnelfings. Conquest of Tarsh. Considering the Theyalans simply return under Arkat and conquer all of Peloria I don’t really see the battle of Night and Day as impressive, personally, just the middle part of a war which, once again, Peloria loses. It is one battle in a longer conflict which ends with the Orlanthi-side winning, Orlanthi ruling Peloria and the story even kind of implies an inherent evil in Dara Happa by making it that the moment Dara Happa joins the ritual the Orlanthi leave, warning everyone it is a mistake to involve Dara Happa, and they wind up being right as Nysalor is made. Not really fond of the way the Pelorians seem to be inherently evil. Furthermore, the fact that the Orlanthi hired Trolls and Malkioni to win doesn’t matter to me. Winning is winning. If Peloria always loses because it is too stupid to use strategies to win that is their fault, not the Orlanthi’s for just being smarter. Reminds me of the well of daliath post which points out that the Lunar Army was actually just very, very dumb and the only reason they seemed to do well was because they had magic but the moment, they ever went up against anyone who could negate that they were such incompetent commanders and warriors they got destroyed. The expulsion was in part heavily due to internal problems within the EWF and also backed by Carmania. I agree totally it’s a case of Pelorians actually eking out a win, nice, a pity they are immediately conquered by Carmania but, sure, the eventual collapse of the EWF is true. Yeah, for the Lunar ones, definitely. As I’ve said the Lunar Empire is clearly the one period where Pelorians were actually a hegemonic force, at least within their homeland. A pity we already know they just get wiped out by Argarth. Yet again Orlanthi forces always triumph against Pelorian. Quote I don't recognize this version of events. The Empire came into being after the Second Council defeated the last of the horse riders. The Council then became split over the God Project whereupon the Dara Happans invaded. The Second Council made peace and became part of the Dara Happan Empire. In what sense is this a stalemate? I’m afraid I don’t know what to say. This is the sequence of events from the Cults: Mythology book. It explicitly says Dara Happa and the Second Council fought and that then the Third Council made peace and invited Dara Happa to join them. No mention is made of an invasion by Dara Happa or of Dara Happa as the dominant force. Where’s this other version come from, if I may ask, I’d love to read it. Quote You are using an sweeping definition of Orlanthi and a restrictive definition of Pelorians here. At least compare apples with apples. What is the Sun Dome temple if not Pelorian culture? What is Illumination which came from Yelm and has an enduring presence in Ralios? What is the Lunar Way which sprang from Yelm and has worshippers in Fronela, Peloria and the Wastelands even *after* the fall of the Lunar Empire? Seven Mothers worshippers in Prax (as per Cults of Runequest: Mythology) Bison Trbe: 1% High Llama: 1% Impala: 3% Morokanth: 6% Pol Joni: lusers Rhino: 1% Sable: 10% Unicorn: 10% Zebra: lusers. In free Dragon Pass: Grazelands: 5% Old Tarsh: 5% Sartar: 5% To portray this as a defeat is like calling the Roman Empire a failure. I’m using the definition from the Guide to Glorantha. It calls numerous nations in Ralios, Fronela, the Holy Country and all of the Lunar Provinces as being dominated and populated by Orlanthi cultures. The Sun Domes exist, certainly, as there are ethnic minorities everywhere, but none of the regions with the Sun Domes are described as being dominated by a Pelorian Culture or a Sky Pantheon save for those already in northern Peloria. Southern Peloria: Imther, Aggar, Talastar etc. etc are all in the guide explicitly said to be culturally Orlanthi and per Mythology: Cults in all these places Orlanth either holds the same number of worshipers as Yelm or more. I do not think that it is at all a bizarre statement to make that Orlanthi culture has clearly been far, far, FAR more successful at propagating itself and its beliefs across Glorantha. The presence of Sun Domes in an area doesn’t mean Pelorian Culture is dominant there. Meanwhile the books explicitly say several parts of the West, of Pamaltela, the Holy Country and southern Peloria are dominated by Orlanthi and Air Worship. Perhaps I am missing something, so feel free to let me know if there is a book I could look at to for this, but outside of northern Peloria the Guides to Glorantha do not describe any other states or regions as dominated by Pelorian culture or worship of Yelm, whilst numerous, numerous states and regions, including all of southern Peloria, are explicitly stated to now be largely dominated by Orlanthi peoples and worship of Orlanthi-pantheons. For example, to go just by those Praxian numbers you’ve got: · Bison are 5% Orlanthi · High Llama are 5% Orlanthi · Impala are 13% · Morokanth are more Seven Sisters for sure · Pol-Joni are 25 · Rhino are 7 · Unicorn I’ll concede · Zebra I guess are irrelevant · Sable are of course very Lunar, agreed I think they key confusion here is you seem to be thinking I’m saying that there are no Pelorian cultural minorities in other places. There are, typically in Orlanthi dominated southern Peloria. But that is the point. Peloria has not spread to become a dominant culture in any other region (a hallmark of actual hegemony) whilst, by comparison, Orlanthi has not only spread to become the dominant culture of numerous regions but has even dominated southern Peloria and made almost half of the Pelorian homeland now be a region in which Pelorians themselves, and Sky Pantheon worship, are a minority within their ancestral homelands, now largely ruled and populated by Orlanthi peoples and Air Pantheons. That is the point I am making. Not that there aren’t cultural minorities, of course there are small pockets of Pelorians still in southern Peloria, but Orlanthi now dominate there, whilst there is no region which was once Orlanthi where the Orlanthi are now a cultural minority dominated by a new Pelorian cultural majority. Also, as for the Rome part, again I see no viable comparison. The Roman Empire DID result in vast swathes of the world culturally, religiously and linguistically identifying as and claiming to be Roman. Meanwhile Peloria has never achieved this anywhere (save perhaps Carmania). By contrast Guide to Glorantha 1 explicitly tells us that Orlanthi hegemony transformed much of Western Genertela and Southern Peloria into Orlanthi dominated regions culturally, linguistically and religiously. Guide to Glorantha 1 when discussing the Lunar Provinces (so southern Peloria) explicitly says Orlanth was the prime deity prior to the Lunar Empire's domination and even after their domination it is Ernalda and Barntar who are now described as most populous. There is simply no comparison to Rome's cultural conversion of massive regions of Europe, the Near East and North Africa into culturally and linguistically 'Roman' regions and Peloria's lack of achieving any conversion of any conquered regions into 'Pelorian' regions. Most damning despite ruling the Provinces for 400 years Guide to Glorantha 1 still states that southern Peloria is populated by Orlanthi peoples who follow Orlanthi culture and largely follow Air or Earth Pantheons. This can be compared clearly to how when Orlanthi hegemony emerged it successfully converted much of western Genertela and southern Peloria into regions which are now described per the Guide to Glorantha 1 as being populated by Orlanthi peoples predominantly with Orlanthi cultures and Pantheons. I hope I made my point clear, again, if I misunderstood anything let me know! Darius West: Quote As to why the Solar Pantheon seems to suck, well, it isn't dynamic and it doesn't embrace change. If you don't change your tactics, you become predictable, and that makes you lose. Dara Happa is hidebound, and the person of the Emperor is really the only hero of the story. As with Yelm before his death and before the fall of the Spike, everything revolves around the ruler, and everyone else is barely a footnote. Not so in Orlanthi society where respect for the individual is paramount and "nobody can make you do anything". The other important thing about Peloria is that they embrace Empire and centralized authority, even if they are the ones being subjugated (for the most part). Yes, we can point to the Sun Dragon of the Second Age, who sat as emperor for a time, and against whom the Solar Worshippers rebelled, and we can point to Jannisor who fought the Lunars, but for the most part they just want the feeling of security they get from knowing there is an Emperor in charge. Agreed. As a pantheon, and the resulting polities, Sky seems to be absolutely idiotic and bereft even of the rational self-interest the most basic of polities have. They will gladly lose war after war after war to Orlanthi hegemons and change nothing, necessitating their eventual destruction. Agreed, Pelorians are subjugated near constantly, primarily by Pentans and Orlanthi, so I am surprised more have not adopted the Orlanthi ways in northern Peloria/Dara Happa. Quote As for the Sky Gods being incredibly weak, I have to disagree. Fire Elementals are the best elementals without a doubt. Yelorna cultists come armed with a machinegun spell. Sunbolt is stronger than Thunderbolt. And frankly, impaling weapons do vastly more damage on an impale than slashing or bludgeoning weapons can generally hope to achieve. The Phalanx formation is devastating. I have pitted really well-geared and heavily experienced Humakti and Orlanthi Rune levels against a phalanx and they couldn't cope with 8 pike attacks per round, despite their iron armor and shield spells combined. Technical specifications mean nothing if they do not actually deliver results in warfare. The Phalanx Formation, these Rune Spells, are clearly not effective as despite possessing them Peloria’s history is one of near constant defeat and loss. Quote The issue is that the Orlanthi embrace change. Orlanth shows up with technical surprises, "Wandering Sun, Jealous Uncle, I have a new toy, see it?". The Lunars also know the trick of technical surprises, and if anything, incorporate it into their worship even more than the Orlanthi, at least until Argrath comes along. I get what you mean but, for me, this is personally irrelevant. If your enemies defeat, you because they are smarter that changes nothing. Winning is winning, this just shows again why the Sky Pantheon, and Pelorians, suck so much. They are just really, really, dumb. I remember there is even a well of daliath post about how the Lunar Empire is actually very stupid strategically and tactically and just relies on magic as a crutch. Unless Fazzur Wideread is involved because, again, obviously, as an Orlanthi he is just inherently superior to all the Lunar Pelorian commanders in history. Joerg: Quote Yelm made himself the perfect ruler for the age of perfection his actions (ending a more innocent period) created, until the consequences of those actions caught up with him. Yelm's period is called the Golden Age. It is the Age of (Godtime) Civilization, of ordered society creating something more than just the family community. There are civilizations "contemporary" to Yelm's reign which may have earlier and definitely indepenently developed civilization - Genert's Garden, Pamalt's Fields, the Kingdom of Logic with its arts (writing, architecture, seafaring, ... and last not least sorcery) or Vith's mystical rightness in the East with more tolerance for the disruptive side inside its extent. There are civilizations that built on earlier ones, and there are many forgotten earlier civilizations. Entekosiad makes the claim tha Brighteye usurped the role of celestial overseer from a previous "White Queen" who may have been a cyclical goddess in a sophist way solving a problem with ill intent. I am probably missing something, but I don’t see how any of this challenges or disputes what I am saying. If anything, as I’ve dug deeper now, and supported by this, how much Yelm, the Sky Pantheon and Peloria sucks just seems to deepen. Not only are they a shrinking culture who are near constantly conquered by either Orlanthi or Pentans but, in addition, they are monstrously sexist to an almost insane extent and seem to be inherently immoral since their mere involvement in the Council’s project immediately tipped the Orlanthi off to the fact that the project would now be evil. Yelm, the Sky Pantheon, Peloria, everything about them seems to exist just to be an awful place of losers who are bad and suck so that the Orlanthi can beat their asses over and over kid. Like nerdy loser kids being constantly picked on by everyone in the neighbourhood, from Malkioni Carmanians, Pentans and Orlanthi, for their lunch money. Quote That's more of a cyclical pattern both in Godtime and in history. Any historical age begins with Orlanthi humans at the pinnacle of human civlization (although the collapse of the EWF blasted the center of Orlanthi civiilization and distributed it among the foes or neutrals to the Dragonfriends). They soon get into conflict with the Solar Empire and get beaten badly, in part by those of their number who ally with the Solars, but then strike back at the end of the Age. (The Second Age was a bit weird, but such trends are present.) Yeah, and every age ends with the ‘Solars’ decisively defeated and conquered. As you point out, also, the Solars only ever achieve success by joining, usually, with other non-Solars who already are conquering them. In addition, the Solar hegemons are always incredibly small, the Dara Happan Empire which emerged from the Broken Council ruled only northern Peloria with Dorastor as the seat of the greater government, the Dara Happa which worked with the Carmanians controlled, in conjunction with them, only most of Peloria before their destruction in Dragon Pass. By comparison the Dawn Age conquests by Arkat saw Orlanthi and Trolls and Lightbringer forces ruling everything from Western Genertela to Peloria and the EWF even more than that. There is a clear, CLEAR discrepancy in the imperial extent and hegemonic influence exerted by the two cultural centres. Again, one can just look at the Guide to Glorantha and Well of Daliath posts on culture numbers and religion which both agree that Pelorians/Sky Pantheon are the smallest in Genertela and exceeded by Orlanthi/Air Pantheon by a significant margin. This alone is a clear indication of the vastly superior hegemonic and imperial status of Orlanthi/Air Pantheon over anything Pelorian/Sky Pantheon and I feel should surprise no-one considering how successful Orlanthi conquerors are and how unsuccessful Peloria is at just about anything other than living in their small corner of the world. The Pelorian hegemons, until the Lunar Empire, barely exert any influence outside of Peloria. Orlanthi hegemons typically exert, at a minimum, influence over all of Genertela west of the Wastes, including, often all of Peloria itself. In addition, what influence is exerted by Pelorian hegemons never, for some reason, establishes culture conversion. Whilst the Guide to Glorantha identifies virtually all of the Lunar Provinces, much of Ralios and Fronela as now being Orlanthi populated due to Orlanthi hegemonic spread, there is not a single region in the entire Guide identified as having become Pelorian populated due to any Pelorian hegemonic spread. Indeed, bafflingly to me, even though the Lunar Empire has ruled the Provinces for 400 years now, they are still in the Guide identified as primarily being of the Orlanthi culture and not Pelorian. Indicating, if anything, that the Empire has a pathetically weak hegemonic core. Most empires, by dint of necessity to maintain power, have to exercise a degree of cultural conversion. This happens in virtually every empire in history which exists for more than a single conqueror’s generation. The Lunar Empire, though, seems to not even be able to achieve this. Which does explain why all the Provinces very rapidly simply submit to Argarth, being an Orlanthi hegemon, their natural superiors. Looking at it even just from a narrative perspective the cycle you mention is exactly what I am talking about. It is boring to me. The history we are presented is just an endless set of wars where Orlanthi ALWAYS win in the end and conquer Peloria. It just makes me feel bad for how pathetic Peloria is. It also, again, emphasizes my other problem: Orlanthi are inherently treated as better and more exceptional. As you say yourself the pinnacle of civilization who only ever even risk defeat to the Solars because members of their own civilization betray them and, ultimately, it is always the Orlanthi that triumph. Now, I totally get this isn't a problem for anyone. That's fine. For me, personally though, it is something I deeply just dislike. Quote The Six Ages games fail to acknowledge (so far) that the best and brightest of the Horse Warlord emperors in Peloria was the Hyaloring Vuranoste, the third emperor using the Jenarong rites to pass the Ten Tests. Unfortunately his sons failed to provide a successor, instead using up their pure sun magic in the struggle tghat led to the Bridling of Kargzant biding their free-roaming horse-loving god to the Sunpath of the re-awalened fragment(s) of Yelm at Day and retracing it at night. Sure, and I speak under correction here because there may be context I do not understand, but what you describe there just make this sound like another failed attempt by Pelorians to have any serious influence or power. Quote Plenty, usually in the second half of a historical Age. Therein lies a big problem then for me. So, they always just lose in the end. They just do sorta okay before being ultimately always crushed and conquered. Quote Dawn Age: the Battle of Night and Day was followed by almost three generations of Palangio ruling over the Orlanthi (outside of Lokamayadon's direct followers who were his allies) in Dragon Pass, Maniria and Ralios, enslaving or starving the Heortlings at least as bad as the potato famine hit Ireland. Lokamaydon had usurped their magics. But then being defeated by Arkat and Orlanthi ruling over Peloria for a generation before the EWF proceeds to rule for even longer. Now, again, here I do want to add that maybe I am missing context, but at least after reading the Guides and the Cults books, nowhere has it yet implied that when Dragon Pass was conquered by the Broken Circle was this an exclusively Pelorian thing, it presented it as a Dorastor-Broken Circle thing, which Dara Happa was just now a willing member of. Quote Second/Imperial Age: The Orlanthi domination of Dara Happa lasted less than a generation before all Orlanthi control over the conquered lands of Dara Happa had been removed. Yeah, for sure, northern Peloria did manage to regain independence, briefly, before the EWF Orlanthi conquered them. Again here, at best, Peloria/Dara Happa scrapes out ‘we manage to not die’ whilst Orlanthi multiple times in a row conquer the entire Pelorian region and have culturally converted virtually all of southern Peloria to the point where the Guides describe southern Peloria as being predominantly populated by Orlanthi peoples, not Pelorian, and the Cults: Mythology books definitively have Orlanth and Air worship exceed Sky worship there. There is a very telling difference in scope of impact. Dara Happa scrapes by, in the north, never managing to affect any significant presence or conquest of Orlanthi hegemons, whilst Orlanthi hegemons not only regularly conquer all of Peloria but are even steadily culturally converting Peloria into just another Orlanthi-dominated region. Quote The dragonfriends were a new thing that took control first of the Orlanthi core lands and then of Dara Happa, but it was the Dara Happans who overthrew the Dragon Sun emperor, then joined forces with the Carmanians and willing non-Heortling Orlanthi to destroy the dragonfriends. Their success led to the EWF becoming as oppressive as Arkat's Command had been, and losing their way from the intended greater draconic conciousness they had envisioned. More Orlanthi joined the fight against the EWF, spearheaded by Alakoring, whose successors joined forces with the foes of the EWF and destroyed the Orlanthi core lands in Dragon Pass twice (the second time mere hours before being destroyed by the dragons in the Dragonkill War). Agreed, the eventual defeat of the EWF was caused by Pelorians, Malkioni, Orlanthi and, more importantly, Dragonewts. It was in no way some primarily Pelorian success. In addition, we again see this very different treatment. When the EWF conquered Peloria they dominate it for centuries of Orlanthi rule over Peloria. When Arkat comes to Peloria he decisively wins, subjugates the entire region successfully, then lives in peace a victor. When Peloria just takes part in a joint victory over an Orlanthi hegemon they have their entire military age male populace extinguished. There is never a moment of lasting triumph for Peloria, even when they are part of an eventually joint success over some or other Orlanthi hegemon. We see this repeated in Dragonrise where the Lunar Empire seems to finally actually achieve the first ever case in history of Pelorian dominance over Orlanthi, only to immediately have it all collapse and a new Orlanthi hegemon not only reverse all their conquests but also proceed to conquer all of southern Peloria and even destroy the Red Moon. Quote The Carmanians who came out on top after the Dragonkill disaster under the Bull Shahs and a revival of Spolite Darkness were overthrown by a Yelmic resurgence merging forces with the new Lunar Way. Then Sheng Seleris brought in a rivalling solar model - not to the advantage of the Orlanthi, even though the Kingdom of Tarsh was the leading force in pushing back Sheng's southern (Opili Nation, Praxian) allies, with a huge triumph at the Battle of Quintus Vale aided by the Lunarized Orlanthi of Sylila. Yes, agreed, the Lunar Empire is the sole actual period of Pelorian hegemonic influence of any sort. A pity we already know it is destroyed, yet again by an Orlanthi hegemon, and we also know that even after 400 years of rule it affects no significant cultural conversion in any of its conquered territories, the hallmark of hegemonic pull. Quote The Yelm cult dragged the Lunar Way into the philosphical trap of the Empire, hindering its mystical ascension in a way reminiscent to the distraction of the EWF for cheap trick advances. Tatius the Bright rose to become a Yelmic rather than Yelmalian Palangio until he was eaten by the Brown Dragon. Yes, except, again, there is a MASSIVE discrepancy in power and scope. The EWF conquer all of Peloria and much of the entire world. The Lunar Empire, at its greatest, had solid rule of Peloria, some rule over Dragon Pass and Prax, minimal conquest of Holy Country, and this greatest extent lasted at most 30 years before, rapidly, the Lunar Empire shrunk to just the Heartland before that collapsed too against an Orlanthi hegemon (this time both Pelorian AND Pentan empires were defeated by the same Orlanthi hegemon!) There is simply no comparison between the imperial status of the EWF and a minnow like the Lunar Empire. Quote Sure. That's part of the historical cycle which starts with Orlanthi supremacy at the start of an age. The closure of the Second Age saw the Yelmalio cult (Orlanthi solars) in power everywhere south of Dara Happa proper, and the bull-Orlanthi influience Bull Shahs taking over Dara Happa, while south of Dragon Pass the Hendriki had acquired more than half of Esrolia, and after the 1042 forced incomplete ascension of the draconic leadership also the survivors in the ruined Pass region. Yes, a historical cycle which is defined by constant Pelorian loss against Orlanthi hegemony. I also don’t personally see how the Yelmalio Cult can be seen as dominant. Per Guide 1 everywhere south of Dara Happa proper is Orlanthi and the guide even notes that prior to the Lunar conquest of these regions Orlanth had been that main deity and that, now, it is Ernalda and Barntar. Yelmalio is only mentioned as being important in Saird, nowhere else. If we also look at southern Peloria Cult numbers in the Mythology: Cults book we see that in Aggar, Imther, Talastar, Brolia, Anadiki and Vanch Orlanth worship is always considerably larger than Yelmalio worship. Indeed, in Aggar, Talasatar, Anadiki and Brolia there is not much Yelmalio worship at all. Throughout all of southern Peloria only in Hoolay is Yelmalio at least EQUAL to the degree of Orlanth worship. This is after 400 years of Lunar efforts to suppress Orlanth worship as well. So, I do not really see how Yelmalio can be argued to have been the dominant faith or figure here. It is very clearly stated in Guide 1 and Mythology: Cults that southern Peloria is culturally and religious Orlanthi in nature, not Pelorian, with just some significant Pelorian minority presences. Quote The Bright Empire did push Yelm into the role of the World Emperor even in Malkioni lands. The Monomyth inherits the Bright Empire doctrine that it was Yelm who was slain by Orlanth, making him universal and pushing out earlier notions like Ehilm from Jrusteli / God Learner monomythizing, Other than the elephant rather than bird imagery, Somash in Teshnos is imperial Yelm - possibly reinforced with Sheng Seleris's conquests and exchange of literate administrators betwee his various conquests. It is very clear that throughout much of the ‘West’ Orlanth worship, in some form or another, is much more present than Yelm worship. In Guide 1, when discussing Fronela, no mention is made under religion of any significant Sky presence. Instead, it is noted that Orlanth worship is, in some form or another, prevalent and influential in: Northern Fronela, Jonatela, Janube States and Junora. It is very, very clear that whatever Sky influence there maybe it is vastly overshadowed by Air/Orlanthi influence in the West. Teshnos I think is interesting, I want to read more on them. Or, if I planned to continue with Runequest I would have. I agree that, depending on how wants to think of it, maybe Teshnos is similar to Peloria, but then it is not due to actual overt cultural conversion, as per Orlanthi, but simply coincidence. This is quite clearly seen in how much of Western Genertela not only has syncretized with the Orlanthi faith, but also become dominated by Orlanthi populations, whilst nothing of Teshnos is described as dominated or even inhabited by Pelorian populations. Quote Sheng Seleris ruling Peloria, Kralorela, Teshnos and almost conquering Vormain? Sheng is an alternative Yelmic ruler to Moonson. Yeah, Sheng is interesting. Again, a pity we already know he just winds up being defeated by the Orlanthi. Quote Also, the Solar Empire is the organizing structure in Teshnos and Vormain, and in a draconized way also in Kralorela. I think you are misunderstanding a bit what I am discussing here. Again, in this case, sure, Teshnos, Vormain and Kralorela have Sky Pantheons, but none are the result of Pelorian hegemonic influence, as seen in how there is no Pelorian culture in any of these regions. Contrast that with Orlanthi spread which has also seen Orlanthi cultures now dominate much of the world, becoming per the Guide 1 the largest population in the world, as they spread. Quote The Orlanthi culture was dominant at the Dawn, with the Dara Happan revival under Jenaong and Vuranoste dragged down by the barbarism of other Horse Warlord emperors. Avivath was the prophet of Yelm who re-kindled the urban solar culture as dominant overseers, aided and abetted by the Second Council, and then all but taking over the God Project leading to a Bright Empire rather than the Mystical Storm Empire. Which was promptly crushed by Arkat, Malkioini, Trolls and Orlanthi. Then Theyalans ruled Peloria for a generation. Dara Happa alone regained independence and was shortly afterwards conquered by Malkioini in the Carmanians and Orlanthi in the EWF. Again, just a history of scraping by from being conquered by one group of foreign rulers to another. Quote First, the dragonfriends beat the Traditionalist Orlanthi. Badly. The EWF conquest was not done by Storm Hill Barbarians, but by Solar Hill Barbarians become dragonfriends. While Obduran had demonstrated how Storm and Dragon could be united, his successor Isgangdrang took Storm away from the Orlanthi and transformed it into dragon power. Losing the mystical goal through his short cut fallacies, but still... We don't really know the human identity of the EWF Dragon Sun emperor, but I bet he was not a Dragon Pass Orlanthi but someone from around Imther when he joined the dragonfriend mystics presumably when they still were persecuted by the Council of Orlanthland and their Yelmalian allies at Domanand (now Mirin's Cross). Still Orlanthi and followers of the Air Pantheon. That the EWF had to beat some other Orlanthi doesn’t change anything, Dara Happa also infights regularly. It is an Orlanthi hegemon which dominated, yet again, Peloria. It was not a Sky Pantheon nor a Pelorian hegemony. The Sun Dragon doesn’t need to be a Dragon Pass Orlanthi. It is stated explicitly in the Guide 1 that the inhabitants of southern Peloria are Orlanthi Air-worshippers. I don’t exclude them from this. They are still, definitively, called Orlanthi in the books. Quote As Dara Happans, their influence reached down into central Saird, past Sylila and Vanch.Yelmic administrators were spread by the Bright Empire, and are welcomed by the Solar hill barbarians worshipping the Cold Sun. There is a map of the Sun Dome temples on the Well of Daliath... Which, again, is tiny. Orlanthi influence spreads throughout all of Genertela and to Pamaltela. Additionally, I don’t understand why southern Peloria and Sun Dome Temples keep getting brought up. Again, per Guide 1 and Mythology: Cults the ‘Solar Hill Barbarians’ are described as being Orlanthi culturally and Orlanth as having been their primary deity until the Lunar Conquests after which Ernalda and Barntar are described as their main deities. Again, per Mythology: Cults, Hoolay is the only region in southern Peloria where Yelmalio worship even equals Orlanth. Yelmalio worship certainly exists as an important minority within southern Peloria, but it is also explicitly state that religiously and culturally the population of southern Peloria is first and foremost Orlanthi, even after 400 years of Lunar rule. Quote It can be argued that the Orlanthi were subjects of these bodies - other than the Unity Council (which was not an empire, but the resulting Second Council became one), there were Orlanthi uprisings against each of these empires after initially being co-opted by these entities. The concept of Empire is alien to the tribal nature of the Orlanthi. I do not agree with this personally, there are constant rebellions in Dara Happa against Dara Happan hegemons. Hegemon is determined by ruling class, which was Orlanthi, not by ‘did every single member of this culture like the hegemon,’. If we use this metric of ‘has this hegemon ever had a rebellion of its own culture,’ no state would ever qualify. Quote Orlanthi are raiders, but not administrators. The Dragon Emperor used draconized native administrators to maintain its hold on the empire, while the short Heortling occupation at the end of the Gbaji Wars attempted to do with their own administrators, and failed miserably. Both the Carmanians and Sheng Seleris used solar administrators for their conquests, as did the horse warlords at the Dawn. Without such solar administration, no long term occupation can be maintained, and longer terms of interregnum tend to lead to the rise of new dynasties (like e.g. Denesiod's). All wise conquerors adapt local administration to suit their needs. Again, for me, this isn’t really relevant. The damning evidence is in the way Orlanthi culture alone has successfully converted regions, including much of Peloria, to the point that books explicitly call these regions now as being populated by Orlanthi, whilst Peloria has never managed to spread at all. Quote The Pelorians are a varied group of cultures, and their homelands are the river valleys of the Pelorian bowl. Sure, they share their grain goddess with the uplands in the foothills of the Rockwoods, so by that definition their "homeland" is shared. But that is about as much cultural unity you can find for "the Pelorians" whether you include or exclude the Pelorian Orlanthi. The Arcos Valley folk come in two major ethnicities - Rinliddic for the lower Arcos, Zarkozite goat hillfolk for the upper Arcos. They are two of the four non-Dara Happan ethnic groups traveling on Anaxial's Ark during the Great Flood. The Suvarian weeders are a third independent group of the same origin, even though they provided the last Anaxial-dynasty emperor Manimat. The Dara Happan Empire in its full extent would rule over all the people whose ancestors debarked from Anaxial's Ark. The dry lands during the flood, including the Syliling and Vanchite hills, would be included as border marches inhabited by settlers descended from the Ark peoples, expanding Dara Happan culture and influence into Saird and Dara Ni (at the Dawn First Council lands under Troll or Heortling domination). Yes, agreed, this is what I’m saying. Whilst Pelorian hegemons have never managed to expand their culture into any part of Orlanthi homelands the Orlanthi have successfully converted much of southern Peloria to be Orlanthi culture instead. Quote For the Third Age the prize might equally well go to the Pentans, the only group ever to rule over both Peloria, the Wastes and the Genertelan East. Orlanthi expansion by settlement was mainly a Godtime Late Golden/Storm Age phenomenon when warlike herders professing a kinship to their ungulate herds descended from the highlands and encroached on the lowlands, picking up transhumant pastoralist agriculture during their descent. Two things I would say here are: 1. If we look at only the 3rd age, I agree the Pentans are the only contenders. Here, again, though we see a trend I dislike. Sheng conquers and defeats virtually only Sky Pantheon cultures. Then, the first time he has a war against an Air Pantheon/Orlanthi nation, he loses immediately, and his entire empire is destroyed. 2. Me, personally, I am looking at things not just in the 3rd age, and the conquests of Arkat and the EWF VASTLY outstrip Sheng Seleris. Furthermore, what I dislike, is that even the greatest Sky conqueror, Sheng, can only really beat other Sky cultures, losing the first time he faces an Orlanthi hegemon, whilst Arkat and the EWF decisively defeat Sky Pantheon cultures. This once more, for me reinforces what I mean by the fact that the Sky Pantheon is clearly pathetically weak, only able to even really contend when fighting itself and always doomed to defeat against the Air Pantheon/Orlanthi. Quote For the Imperial Age, the God Learners were unrivalled for world-wide imperial presence, sparing only Carmania, the EWF (Dara Happa included in either), the Errinoru jungles and the further East Isles. The biggest empire of the Dawn Age would have been the Bright Empire co-founded by Orlanthi but trampling on the majority of the Orlanthi (enough for many of them to align themselves with soulless Malkioni), with the Vithelan sphere empires a lot less expansive (Kralorela, Teshnos, Vormain, various East Isles) except for the Mokato Thalassocracy and a few warlike precedessor confederations suppressing the antigod empires. The EWF, per Mythology: Cults at least, are simply stated outright to during the 2nd Age have had the greatest power in all of Glorantha’s history, so that at least seems to confirm they were greater than the God Leaners. Not that this matters much to me since during the Imperial Age all of Peloria was just subjugated and they never even had a significant empire of their own. Quote The Carmanians (except for their ruling castes of mixed Pelandan and Western descent) are Pelorians, too. Eastern Carmania now is an integral part of the Lunar Heartlands, the Oronin and Doblian satrapies. Their culture contributed to the Lunar Way about as much as the Dara Happan culture or the Rinliddic variation on Dara Happa. I’m going to concede on the Carmanians. There is a well of daliath post which calls Carmanians Lunars which clearly implies they have culturally converted to Pelorians. I will accept that Carmanians are the one example in history of Pelorian cultural expansion. Still a VERY clear gulf between them and Orlanthi but, at least, it is something. Quote In terms of manpower, Argrath has the much smaller population base behind him. He never conquered Esrolia, only became its protector. Esrolian military was rarely useful in his struggles in the north, and played about as much a role in his campaigns as did Italian forces in the Carolingian fights against the Vikings. They provide a financial and logistical base, that I grant you, at least until they are hit by the Reforestation and the flooding. This just makes the Lunar Empire, and Sheng’s, defeats even more embarrassing but, by now, par for the course whenever Pelorian losers think they can stand up to their rightful Orlanthi betters and conquerors. Per well of daliath at least it is stated that by the late Dragon Pass Kingdom Sartar ruled, along with the Provinces, much of the Holy Country as well. That clearly indicates that, even if not Esrolia itself, much of the Holy Country comes under Argarth’s rule. Quote By this logic, the hispanic-speaking population of our planet are the supreme rulers. You are assuming an Orlanthi unity that never happens. Even with the magic of Orlanth Rex (a solar Ralian magic carried to the Heortlings by Alakoring?) Argrath has almost as many Orlanthi opponents that may become hesitant mercenary allies at best and open foes at worst. No, but it is clear indication that Hispanic is widely distributed because two massive imperial hegemons, Portugal and Spain, exerted great domination over the world. Similarly, for example, there is a low degree of Amharic language and cultural spread and we do not, in macro-history, consider the Abyssinian, Aksumite or Ethiopian polities of the Horn to have ever been particularly significant hegemons. So, too, Peloria is clearly not a significant hegemonic presence vis-a-vis the Orlanthi hegemonic dominance. Language, culture and religion spread follow hegemonic dominance, are markers of imperial power. That they have spread does not mean all legacies are currently united, but those legacies exist for a reason. In this case that reason is that Orlanthi is the single greatest imperializing hegemonic force in Glorantha. Orlanthi don’t have to be united to have hegemonic dominance. That their culture and religion is the most widespread, by far, is already material evidence of their hegemonic dominance. Similarly, Argarth doesn't seem to struggle much with infighting among his Orlanthi supporters. Considering he simply defeats the entire Lunar Empire, the entire Empire of Sheng and proceeds to conquer all of Dragon Pass, the Provinces, much of Prax and the Holy Country, Orlanthi infighting is clearly not a very significant threat. Lunar Empire infighting, and thus Sky Pantheon infighting, is clearly a far greater danger as at multiple points it is stressed that the Lunar Empire is wracked constantly with internal battle and uprisings which help undermine it and weaken it. Argarth suffers from little of the same and simply unites his realm and utterly dominates his foes. Quote While that is true, a lot of the Orlanthi religious influence has Malkioni or non-human overlords (Umathela, Fornoar, Safelster, Fronela, Carmania). A significant portion of the Orlanhi has solar- or Lunar-worshipping rulers, too. I don’t, personally, see evidence for that. Again, the Guide 1 and Mythology: Cults describe southern Peloria as being Orlanthi culturally and primarily worshiping Orlanth (or now Ernalda and Barntar). If there was anything like a reciprocal cultural situation here, we would not see only Orlanthi culture dominate southern Peloria, we would see the Guide 1 also describe parts of Dragon Pass then as now populated by predominantly Pelorian culture. But, this is not said anywhere. Quote His bureaucracy rules supreme. Bureaucracy is useless to a state if it cannot maintain autonomy. This is why successive states with powerful established bureaucracies, from the Iranian Plateau, Turkic conquest regimes and Chinese Dynasties, when conquered by forces, adopted the ways of these forces to suit their needs and did not simply mindlessly maintain devotion to one previous system. Quote Creating at best a short Orlanthi interregnum. The EWF Dragon Sun was the longest lasting one, possibly tied with Shah Cartavar (whose son decided to become the Yelmic emperor). Cartavar was a Spolite-leaning bull shah ruling through Carmanos' Malkioni powers of kingship, not at all an Orlanthi. None of that disputes my point though. Carmanians being Malkioni is also what I mean, it is still, yet again, foreign conquest of Pelorians. Quote The Orlanthi are one of the less important foes of the Dara Happans Personally, I think then they are stupid which, yeah, checks out thus far for the Pelorians. Quote Why worship that illiterate brute under the slippered heels of his dominant faux-docile ruthless wife? He is a useful idiot creating mayhem where he is pointed at. The one thing he did on his own (successfully defending the sky realm against Chaos) allowed the surface world to get ravaged by Chaos, upon which he had to be tricked to accept more sensible advisors (LM, CA, Issaries, even Eurmal) to go and beg for the forgiveness of Yelm. Because he wins all wars and battles, defeats all gods and his powers allow his subjects to become the largest cultural, religious and hegemonic force on the planet. Which, when you are a state, your only priority care is the maintenance and expansion of your own power. Quote You worship Orlanth, you live in a world where fights between testosterone-drunk deities trample everything you own. You worship Yelm, and those bullies fight elsewhere most of the time. But those bullies conquer you, regularly, and you spend most of your history dominated by them. That is a clear incentive to convert, and we see this in how most of western Genertela and southern Peloria simply submitted and converted to the Orlanthi way. History is awful. Conquerors win. The force which has the power to enforce it upon others triumphs. If all Yelm can offer is 'hide in a corner and hope your conquerors ignore you because you stand no chance in ever resisting them' then that way is doomed to destruction. Quote Orlanthi infights are guaranteed, and it is rare that they can postpone those inevitable falling outs long enough to build something greater. The rise of the dragonfriends was a civil war that lasted almost 200 years before the EWF finally emerged from urban Orlanthland. No empire lasts forever. All Empires fall to infighting. On the other hand, the Pelorians have a 1600 year experience that when Pelorians and Sky Pantheon try to make empires they get their asses kicked, when Orlanthi do it they establish, at least, centuries long empires which, even if they don’t persist, permanently convert many regions to Orlanthi culture and religion. Again: the Lunar Empire suffers far more clearly from infighting than Argarth ever seems too and Agarth is clearly able to control his infighting whilst the Lunar Empire fails too. Quote There is the deep cultural difference between wheat and barley agriculturalists vs. rice agriculturalists. The Dara Happans are rice agriculturalists, largely independent of Pelora the grain goddess. While they can administrate barley and grain farmers, those are only somewhat docile if they require irrigation for their crops. Those who don't spell trouble. irrigation works are a unifying task, way beyond the road upkeep worship of the Sartarite toll-takers. Overseen by Yelm, accounted by Buserian, built by Lodril's get. The vast majority of the Pelorian males worship Lodril, a fun manly god worthy of worship. He builds, he fights, he has lots of sex, with the blessing of his main wife, unlike Orlanth who has to choose most of his mistresses from his (part-time) male companions like Heler or Mastakos, possibly even Elmal, or who even becomes a woman at times (Vinga). Muich like Orlanth, Lodril leaves the heavy thinking to others, like Yelm, but when the result of such rationality hurts, he rebels, hard and effectively, toppling what oppresses his people. In his more reflective moments, Lodril becomes Turos or even KetTuros, the city-builder. When needing powerful primal magic, he becomes the naked painter of sacred symbols, or he erupts in hot lava. Lodril is lord of part of the Underworld, providing something Orlanth can't. He has direct marital access to the vaults of Asrelia, unlike his son-in-law Orlanth who has to go through his wife, Lodril's daughter. That scheming woman keeps Orlanth on a leash most of the time, not that her father would reap any benefit from that, but Lodril has a multitude of children more grateful than Ernalda. Peloria and especially lowland Peloria is the land of Lodril. Sure, Yelm gets to be the aloof emperor above who makes up rules that may be convenient to follow at times, and convenient to disregard at other times. Yelm is extremely selective in allowing who may worship him directly. Except when it comes to nomadic horse riders, where every second or third ass in a saddle will be eligible, or as spawn of the daughters of the Red Emperor. You don't get to choose to initiate to Yelm, you get chosen by birthright. This is genuinely actually very interesting, thank you for sharing it, I honestly like this kind of stuff, it was what I mean when I said I think Runequest’s dedication to detailed world building is fun. Thank you for sharing it with me. But none of this is relevant to the problem I am discussing. The fact remains that narratively what we are presented with is just Peloria as a region of perennial losers constantly shrinking before Orlanthi cultural and religious spread and being conquered and defeated by them in all wars and never managing to achieve any actual hegemonic influence. Further exarcebated by the fact that I already know that the Lunar Empire just fails and is destroyed, yet again, by a stronger Orlanthi hegemon. An Orlanthi hegemon which also goes on to win and destroy Sheng Seleris’s Pentan empire as well. At the end the problem for me is simple. I dislike the narrative focus on making the Orlanthi exceptional and needing them to win all conflicts. Even in the treatment of characters I dislike this. Whilst Orlanthi heroes like Argarth and Arkat just win, wipe out their Sky Pantheon equivalent, and then live in peace or dominance, the Sky Equivalents just suck. Nysalor just dies. Jar-Eel dies and messes up so many times that I think she's probably the most laughable character in the entire Hero Wars. She's meant to be the big heroine of the Lunar Empire? The lady who constantly gets her ass handed to her in like five different battles and is literally now in that annoying old trop of the villain girl is actually in love with the good guys? If there is one thing, I'd love to see it is just Jar-Eel vanish, a supremely insufferable character who just exists as a personification of Peloria's eternal patheticness vis-a-vis Orlanthi. I think it is just as Rodney says. This is the result of the fact that only Orlanthi matter as they are the player characters, and it is reasonable with limited resources to focus on this. Reasonable, for sure, but then also just definitely not to my personal tastes. I think, in the end, that is just how it is. Peloria is, consciously, within the narrative just the comedic loser villain for the Orlanthi to beat. This requires the Orlanthi, however, to ALWAYS beat them. Thus, we see repeated over and over the same exact story: a threat arises from Peloria, Orlanthi beat it. All the while Peloria shrinks and shrinks and Orlanthi grows and grows. It is, to me, sad, depressing and uninteresting to depict so monotonous and predictable a scenario. But, ultimately, it is about taste. Or, at least, that is what I personally think. I'd certainly be happy to discuss it more if you'd like. Thanks! 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bohemond Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Lots of great thoughts here. To look at a very different facet of the issue, it's worth noting that Peoria is modeled on Mesopotamia, which has repeated produced empires--the Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Neo-Babylonians, Neo-Assyrians, Achaemenids, Seleucids, Parthians, Sassanians, the Baghdad Caliphate. But it suffers from a major weakness--it has poor geographic boundaries and the central location that can be such an advantage economically and intellectually is also a terrible drawback--it's easily invaded. The history of Mesopotamia up to the present day is a very long history of invasions that overthrow and shatter the existing political order. Eventually a new state forms out of the rubble of the old one or an invader creates the new state using fragments of the old one. But it never stops happening because the geography encourages this dynamic. So I think that consciously or unconsciously, Greg set up the Dara Happans to recapitulate this pattern because it's a real one. 4 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 Who is a winner and who is a loser really depends on what point in time you want to pick. 250 ST. Orlanthi: part of the Second Council, allied with trolls, elves, dragonewts, and dwarves. They are spreading the Lightbringers promise across Genertela. Dara Happa: the Gods Age Solar Empire is restored and the Tripolis rule Peloria. Verdict: a draw. 400 ST. Orlanthi: no longer part of the Broken Council, defeated and enslaved. Dara Happa: the leaders of the Golden Empire (aka the Broken Council) which extends over most of Genertela. Verdict: Clear Dara Happa 550 ST. Orlanthi: recently overthrew their troll overlords and ruling Dragon Pass. Dara Happa: ruling most of Peloria with a reformed empire. Verdict: marginal Dara Happa 700 ST. Orlanthi: ruling Dragon Pass and south Peloria, talking with dragons. Dara Happa: paying tribute to Spolites and suffering from a "secret rot". Verdict: Orlanthi 850 ST. Orlanthi formed the Empire of the Wyrms Friends and biggest power in Genertela. Dara Happa: paying tribute to EWF. Verdict: Clear Orlanthi 1000 ST. Orlanthi: EWF is corrupt, degenerate and collapsing. Dara Happa: warring with Carmanian empire Verdict: marginal Dara Happa 1150 ST. Orlanthi: Core Orlanthi lands wiped out by Dragonkill War. Dara Happa: rulers of most of Peloria, but subject to counteroffensive by Bull Lords of Carmania. Verdict: Clear Dara Happa 1300 ST. Orlanthi: beginning to resettle Dragon Pass. Dara Happa: ruling all of Peloria under the new Lunar Dynasty. Verdict: Clear Dara Happa 1450 ST. Orlanthi: ruling Dragon Pass and unified Holy Country under the rule of Belintar. Dara Happa: largely ruled by Sheng Seleris, depopulated and defeated. Verdict: Clear Orlanthi 1600 ST. Orlanthi: ruling half of Dragon Pass (but under increasingly Lunar pressure) and unified Holy Country under the rule of Belintar. Dara Happa: ruling Peloria and half of Dragon Pass. Verdict: Clear Dara Happa Score Dara Happa 6 Orlanthi 3 Draw 1 2 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mao Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 I wouldn't go as far as to say the Solars totally suck but I do think you have a valid point regarding the cultural spread of the Orlanthi virtually everywhere, whereas Solars tend to have at best isolated pockets (outside of Teshnos, Kraorela, Pent, and Dara Happa). So I'd like to expand on some of my thoughts about that. Basically what I think would really round out some of the areas of Orlanthi or pseudo-Orlanthi dominance if there were more confederations or lesser kingdoms of Solars. Think like a Sundome that acts more like a small city that takes a leading role in the region rather than having a stick up its ass and tut-tutting at everyone around them. Part of Yelmic virtue is being able to exercise just and acceptable rulership over those foreign to you, in more legitimate ways than keeping them as a tributary tax farm. Basically I like the idea of the towns Riverjoin, Eastpoint and Southbank as Lunar/Solars doing their own thing along the Janube river, far away from Peloria and the Lunar Empire's machinations. So theoretically you could have a campaign set there about the Lunar/Solar world view with the Hero Wars of central genertela more in the rear-view mirror. Granted I know the Hero Wars touch more than just central Genertela. The city-state of Galin in Safelster also interests me, as it's forming one of the key powerblocs of the region with its alliance with Kustria across the lake. They're a horse based people worshipping Galanin. Who I think we can safely assume is some kind of Solar deity or interpretation of the Sun Horse/Disk. One of the reasons I like Six Ages Lights Going Out is that while the Berenethtelli are heavily Orlanthi-ized they still have a surviving solar core best exemplified by their royal line having Elmal as their patron God, you can even get some events where Solar traditionalists cause a stir. So playing Six Ages LGO didn't just feel like King of Dragon Pass culturally again. I get that's kind of against the grain of Solar Civilization trying to recreate the God Time Golden Age of Emperor of the World Yelm. But I think that's kind of the problem here, if you are a Solar you are probably submitting to the Red Emperor as the centre of world, nay even the universe. Hypothetically an Orlanthi king or tribe could tell Argrath or Alakoring to take a walk and they're not compromising their Orlanthi identity (they might be compromising their life and livelihood though). But a Solar might be if they refused to recognize Yelm's viceroy as their lawful ruler. Some of the other people in the thread have pointed to the logic of Solar civilization seeming to control the inflamed passions of violent warrior aristocrats in a way Orlanthi civilization fails to do so (as a key feature of its cultural dogma in fact, Violence is always an option). I think it would be reasonable if there were more areas across Glorantha that got fed up with this feature of Orlanthi culture and aligned more with Solars. I think actually that's part of the vibe of the Lunar missionary work in Central Gernertela, reaching out to the downtrodden and those dissatisfied with certain elements of Orlanthi ways. I'd like to see that kind of logic applied to the Sundomes perhaps. Like if the surrounding Orlanthi tribes actually LIKE them because they'll do the thankless work of fighting Trolls and Darkness demons when no one else wants to. I think Glorantha sometimes plays up the 'stubborn mercenary' attitude of the Yelmalians too much. If (apologies for seeming arrogant in what I'm about to say) I was writing them I'd probably play them up as kind of wilderness rangers, keeping the last lights going, acting as messengers between settlements, scouts and wardens of trails, roads and hills. Basically as I was writing this post I was reminded of the game/visual novel Roadwarden I'm playing now where part of your job description is you're basically doing that, ensuring ciivlization flourishes by clearing roads, fighting back monsters, acting as a messenger between settlements of a troubled region. There's a mercenary element sure (you can usually demand payment, or additional payment for your work) but you can often assert you're doing this out of a kind of belief in the value of doing it. Maybe that role is less necessary in the more densely populated and civilized Central Genertela, but there's plenty of places in Glorantha that work would be valued. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ageha Posted January 3 Author Share Posted January 3 2 hours ago, Bohemond said: Lots of great thoughts here. To look at a very different facet of the issue, it's worth noting that Peoria is modeled on Mesopotamia, which has repeated produced empires--the Akkadians, Babylonians, Assyrians, Neo-Babylonians, Neo-Assyrians, Achaemenids, Seleucids, Parthians, Sassanians, the Baghdad Caliphate. But it suffers from a major weakness--it has poor geographic boundaries and the central location that can be such an advantage economically and intellectually is also a terrible drawback--it's easily invaded. The history of Mesopotamia up to the present day is a very long history of invasions that overthrow and shatter the existing political order. Eventually a new state forms out of the rubble of the old one or an invader creates the new state using fragments of the old one. But it never stops happening because the geography encourages this dynamic. So I think that consciously or unconsciously, Greg set up the Dara Happans to recapitulate this pattern because it's a real one. The Mesopotamia influence is clear, agreed. I certainly also agree it must be intentional to an extent. But I do think the characterization you make here of successive empires 'arising' from Mesopotamia is not wholly accurate. Akkadians, Babylonians and Assyrians emerged from Mesopotamia proper. The Achaemenids did not, the Seleucids did not, the Parthians did not, the Sassanians did not neither did the Caliphate. Post the Achaemenid conquest of Mesopotamia the region itself never gave rise to powerful hegemonic forces ever again. This is akin to the discussion above about how the Greek Polises ceased to be hegemonic forces. Mesopotamia became a region of great importance to conquering empires for it was very useful for a number of regions, but from the Achaemenids on there is never again the concept that a 'Mesopotamian' polity it a hegemonic force or that Mesopotamia is the origin of great empires. Instead Mespotamia became a region of great value to powerful, foreign, empires who often made it central to their ambitions due to the utility it had. In this it is akin to Egypt. Post Achaemenid conquest there is never again considered to be a powerful hegemonic pull or force in Egypt or arising from it, but Egypt is absolutely vital to the ambitions of powerful empires due, primarily, to its agricultural wealth. Thus, respective Iranian, Hellenic, Roman and eventually Arabic empires all come to dominate it. I would actually have preferred to see, then, Dara Happa play this role out as Mesopotamia did. By the 2nd or 3rd conquest by a foreign power the idea that Dara Happa/Peloria is itself a significant hegemonic power should be played out. What it should be is the contested prize of the great Pentan, Carmanian and Orlanthi empires which have dominated it throughout its entire history and seek to always secure it because it does possess great utility, but little to no power. 1 hour ago, Jeff said: Who is a winner and who is a loser really depends on what point in time you want to pick. 250 ST. Orlanthi: part of the Second Council, allied with trolls, elves, dragonewts, and dwarves. They are spreading the Lightbringers promise across Genertela. Dara Happa: the Gods Age Solar Empire is restored and the Tripolis rule Peloria. Verdict: a draw. 400 ST. Orlanthi: no longer part of the Broken Council, defeated and enslaved. Dara Happa: the leaders of the Golden Empire (aka the Broken Council) which extends over most of Genertela. Verdict: Clear Dara Happa 550 ST. Orlanthi: recently overthrew their troll overlords and ruling Dragon Pass. Dara Happa: ruling most of Peloria with a reformed empire. Verdict: marginal Dara Happa 700 ST. Orlanthi: ruling Dragon Pass and south Peloria, talking with dragons. Dara Happa: paying tribute to Spolites and suffering from a "secret rot". Verdict: Orlanthi 850 ST. Orlanthi formed the Empire of the Wyrms Friends and biggest power in Genertela. Dara Happa: paying tribute to EWF. Verdict: Clear Orlanthi 1000 ST. Orlanthi: EWF is corrupt, degenerate and collapsing. Dara Happa: warring with Carmanian empire Verdict: marginal Dara Happa 1150 ST. Orlanthi: Core Orlanthi lands wiped out by Dragonkill War. Dara Happa: rulers of most of Peloria, but subject to counteroffensive by Bull Lords of Carmania. Verdict: Clear Dara Happa 1300 ST. Orlanthi: beginning to resettle Dragon Pass. Dara Happa: ruling all of Peloria under the new Lunar Dynasty. Verdict: Clear Dara Happa 1450 ST. Orlanthi: ruling Dragon Pass and unified Holy Country under the rule of Belintar. Dara Happa: largely ruled by Sheng Seleris, depopulated and defeated. Verdict: Clear Orlanthi 1600 ST. Orlanthi: ruling half of Dragon Pass (but under increasingly Lunar pressure) and unified Holy Country under the rule of Belintar. Dara Happa: ruling Peloria and half of Dragon Pass. Verdict: Clear Dara Happa Score Dara Happa 6 Orlanthi 3 Draw 1 Does Dara Happa rule all of Peloria at this time? I may well be remembering wrong but if I recall correctly per Glorantha Guide 1 parts of southern Peloria are already under Council administration. Furthermore, this doesn't account for the fact that Dara Happa is first dominate and conquered by Pentants, a loss for them, who the council defeats at Argentum. The Broken Council bit I must admit I just had no knowledge of and would like to find out where I can read about it because it has been brought up twice now. The Mythology: Cults book at least when describing the Broken Circle doesn't describe it as a Dara Happan empire but as a separate power Dara Happa supported, but if it is the case that the Broken Circle should be thought of as instead a Dara Happan empire that certainly does change things somewhat. No mention here is made of Arkat's crushing of Peloria, the surrender to the Orlanthi or the brief Orlanthi rule of Peloria which is a clear marginal Orlanthi win. Furthermore, I don't quite see why Dara Happa controlling much of Peloria and the Orlanthi ruling all of Dragon Pass overthrowing the Trolls is a marginal win for Dara Happa. Seems like a draw to me. On that note, also, when exactly does half of Peloria become so Orlanthi dominated that, per Guide for Glorantha, they are now considered populated primarily by Orlanthi peoples? I had assumed it must happen across a combination of the 1st and 2nd Ages, but if you say at this point Dara Happa rules most of Peloria (which I assume means more than their usual northern holdings) does it only happen during the EWF then? Are there any books on this topic you could maybe recommend for me? Only if it isn't too much trouble though, sorry for the imposition. I think, also, to be clear, I'm discussing Peloria's habitual subordination by all foreign powers, so I consider their conquest by Carmania an absolute defeat. Orlanthi are certainly the focus, as they dominate the lore, but I consider conquest by Carmania an outright defeat for Dara Happa. On that note, again, if post Dragonkill War most of Peloria (which I assume means much of southern Peloria too) then why come the Lunar Empire are we told in the Guide to Glorantha 1 that most of southern Peloria were independent states populated overwhelmingly by Orlanthi peoples who worshiped Orlanth as their primary deity until the Lunar Empire forbade it and they swapped over to Ernalda and Barntar? This part confuses me somewhat as previously Guide and Mythology: Cults had seemed to me to very clearly indicate that outside the Lunar Empire Dara Happa had never had any established hegemony over any Pelorian lands south of Saird. Admittedly we also already know that Orlanthi will go on to crush the Lunar Empire, rule the Provinces and well more and defeat Sheng too, so that is another clear victory for the Orlanthi, and may well be the final fight. Although it is certainly true that at any point in time who is dominant can change, I think it is rather clear from the narrative that we see that, outside the Lunar Empire, Peloria is clearly no hegemonic force comparable to the Orlanthi. It is also definitely telling that Peloria is far, far, far more often subjugated than the Orlanthi have ever been. Of course, finally, to me, the clear material indicators of hegemony: cultural spread, linguistic spread and religious spread are the most determinant for my conclusion. Dara Happa has a period of independence as a part of the Broken Council, ended by Arkat and Orlanthi successfully conquering them, then a period of independence ended next by the Orlanthi of EWF conquering them followed by being conquered by the Carmanians followed by their ascent into an empire finally destroyed once and for all by the Orlanthi under Argarth, with southern Peloria no longer even Pelorian or Sky Pantheon dominant. So, for me, the numbers do still feel very skewed against the Pelorians. Again, as Rodney said, I understand why this is and think it is totally reasonable and rational. But, it is definitely just not to my personal tastes, I think, is all. 28 minutes ago, Mao said: I wouldn't go as far as to say the Solars totally suck but I do think you have a valid point regarding the cultural spread of the Orlanthi virtually everywhere, whereas Solars tend to have at best isolated pockets (outside of Teshnos, Kraorela, Pent, and Dara Happa). So I'd like to expand on some of my thoughts about that. Basically what I think would really round out some of the areas of Orlanthi or pseudo-Orlanthi dominance if there were more confederations or lesser kingdoms of Solars. Think like a Sundome that acts more like a small city that takes a leading role in the region rather than having a stick up its ass and tut-tutting at everyone around them. Part of Yelmic virtue is being able to exercise just and acceptable rulership over those foreign to you, in more legitimate ways than keeping them as a tributary tax farm. Basically I like the idea of the towns Riverjoin, Eastpoint and Southbank as Lunar/Solars doing their own thing along the Janube river, far away from Peloria and the Lunar Empire's machinations. So theoretically you could have a campaign set there about the Lunar/Solar world view with the Hero Wars of central genertela more in the rear-view mirror. Granted I know the Hero Wars touch more than just central Genertela. The city-state of Galin in Safelster also interests me, as it's forming one of the key powerblocs of the region with its alliance with Kustria across the lake. They're a horse based people worshipping Galanin. Who I think we can safely assume is some kind of Solar deity or interpretation of the Sun Horse/Disk. One of the reasons I like Six Ages Lights Going Out is that while the Berenethtelli are heavily Orlanthi-ized they still have a surviving solar core best exemplified by their royal line having Elmal as their patron God, you can even get some events where Solar traditionalists cause a stir. So playing Six Ages LGO didn't just feel like King of Dragon Pass culturally again. I get that's kind of against the grain of Solar Civilization trying to recreate the God Time Golden Age of Emperor of the World Yelm. But I think that's kind of the problem here, if you are a Solar you are probably submitting to the Red Emperor as the centre of world, nay even the universe. Hypothetically an Orlanthi king or tribe could tell Argrath or Alakoring to take a walk and they're not compromising their Orlanthi identity (they might be compromising their life and livelihood though). But a Solar might be if they refused to recognize Yelm's viceroy as their lawful ruler. Some of the other people in the thread have pointed to the logic of Solar civilization seeming to control the inflamed passions of violent warrior aristocrats in a way Orlanthi civilization fails to do so (as a key feature of its cultural dogma in fact, Violence is always an option). I think it would be reasonable if there were more areas across Glorantha that got fed up with this feature of Orlanthi culture and aligned more with Solars. I think actually that's part of the vibe of the Lunar missionary work in Central Gernertela, reaching out to the downtrodden and those dissatisfied with certain elements of Orlanthi ways. I'd like to see that kind of logic applied to the Sundomes perhaps. Like if the surrounding Orlanthi tribes actually LIKE them because they'll do the thankless work of fighting Trolls and Darkness demons when no one else wants to. I think Glorantha sometimes plays up the 'stubborn mercenary' attitude of the Yelmalians too much. If (apologies for seeming arrogant in what I'm about to say) I was writing them I'd probably play them up as kind of wilderness rangers, keeping the last lights going, acting as messengers between settlements, scouts and wardens of trails, roads and hills. Basically as I was writing this post I was reminded of the game/visual novel Roadwarden I'm playing now where part of your job description is you're basically doing that, ensuring ciivlization flourishes by clearing roads, fighting back monsters, acting as a messenger between settlements of a troubled region. There's a mercenary element sure (you can usually demand payment, or additional payment for your work) but you can often assert you're doing this out of a kind of belief in the value of doing it. Maybe that role is less necessary in the more densely populated and civilized Central Genertela, but there's plenty of places in Glorantha that work would be valued. It sounds interesting and certainly I would prefer a situation where Peloria had also achieved cultural expansion in some areas, I still find it strange that despite 400 years of rulership southern Peloria is described culturally, ethnically and religiously as primarily Orlanthi and not Pelorian, but at the end of the day these are nice ideas which don't change the current situation for me sadly, though I certainly appreciate the energy and like the thought. I also agree it'd be nice, if Orlanth is meant to be this somewhat scary and destructive force, if more groups then actually kicked him out sometimes, because currently it just doesn't seem to be the case at all. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scott-martin Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 (edited) 1 hour ago, Ageha said: By the 2nd or 3rd conquest by a foreign power the idea that Dara Happa/Peloria is itself a significant hegemonic power should be played out. What it should be is the contested prize of the great Pentan, Carmanian and Orlanthi empires which have dominated it throughout its entire history and seek to always secure it because it does possess great utility, but little to no power. Funny story, IMG this is roughly where they are these days but don't tell them that. Some would say "they protest too much" when it comes to protecting their imperial prerogatives in a world their cloistered aristocrats find increasingly bewildering. Attempts to recover past glory are disastrous. 1 hour ago, Ageha said: I also agree it'd be nice, if Orlanth is meant to be this somewhat scary and destructive force, if more groups then actually kicked him out sometimes, because currently it just doesn't seem to be the case at all. Funny story, you've described the way the Council got Broken when the trolls, dragons and southern storm people got kicked out for being scary, destructive and annoying. We just don't hear much about it these days because the documents we have were preserved by the most ornery of said southern storm people, who have their own obvious bias. 1 hour ago, Ageha said: It sounds interesting and certainly I would prefer a situation where Peloria had also achieved cultural expansion in some areas Funny story! Or rather, two funny stories. The first one opens up the Dawn Age map to make room for multiple diasporic waves radiating out of their initially isolated survival covenants. While we know the most about the theyalan diaspora that originated in the Choralinthor basin, careful reading can support a parallel troll-oriented missionary movement spreading the OOO cult, multiple rival elf expansions, sea people, totemic people and for your purposes a solar migration coming out of Pent ("starlight ancestors") and carrying solar ideas across the full breadth of Genertela. As these movements start interacting the world as we know it today finds its foundations, with for example some long-buried strains of starlight ancestor "Pelorian style" cultural dissemination surviving inside the little sun clans of the barbarian belt where they promptly become too fractious for me to keep track. The second funny story is that IMG the theyalan missionaries probably weren't spreading the gospel of Orlanth as we understand him today. That came later. Their real message was that light is reborn, the world is alive and isolated individuals can find common ground. That the elemental regimes not only can work together but cooperation / compromise is necessary. That's the real "light" bringer gospel, not the stormbringer gospel, which belongs to a completely different fantasy saga. But as they were bringing good news about light, they could be considered a light (or at least light-leaning, light inclusive) culture incorporating the worship of light gods into their spirituality. At a certain early stage in history, this light aspect gets concentrated into Peloria and Saird where the sun was reborn in splendor while the dark and stormy parts are pushed to the frontiers to refine their ancestral tale of illegitimate birth, stolen patrimony, adultery, regicide, deadbeat dad syndrome and cosmic redemption. Because this was the "funniest" (saddest, truest) story of all, it resonates widely to this day and the storm keeps spreading in an elementally confused world. There are a lot of good stories. We could always use one or two more. Edited January 3 by scott-martin fine tuning around the compromise 3 1 Quote singer sing me a given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 4 hours ago, Ageha said: I still find it strange that despite 400 years of rulership southern Peloria is described culturally, ethnically and religiously as primarily Orlanthi and not Pelorian Conquest does not necessarily change cultural or tribal conditions. One simply needs to look at our own large empires (Assyrian, Persian, Alexandrian) to see that. But there is cultural exchange, and while "way of life" in the hills is better described as "Orlanthi" and in the river valleys as "Pelorian" there will be blended cultures. That's what I developed for Imther as seen in Edge of Empire - it is very much a blend of Solar (Sun Dome), Orlanthi, and Lunar. As the Lunar and Solar cults books become available, and set alongside the Redline History of the Lunar Empire, there is a lot of opportunity to flesh out and enrich all of Peloria (which I've always found more fascinating and rich than Dragon Pass). 1 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ali the Helering Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 There is a terrible tendency to assume that 'the source document has to be written from the point of view of the good guys.' If that were to be the case then GRoY demonstrates conclusively that Dara Happa have always been the good guys whose empire would have been glorious and beautiful if it hadn't been for those darned insert one of (Digijelm/Orlanthi/Pentans/Dragons/Walindum). Read the Red Line History or the FS and the Lunar Empire are the good guys whose coming was prepared and needed by Dara Happa and Rinliddi. Read HHP or BHM and the Heortlings are the oppressed good guys fighting free of the restrictive power of Empire. (unless it is theirs, of course.) Personally I love steppe nomads, so I can't understand why people fail to see that Sheng Seleris was a really cool guy who wanted to liberate the downtrodden from their lives of agrarian misery, to the extent of tearing down the walls used to imprison them and setting them free to live without farms or homes. I am also keen on recycling and eco-consciousness, so it is evident that the really good guys are the cultists of Basko, the Black Sun. No corpse goes to waste, whether simply ingested or used as part of the divinely blessed Blood Feast, releasing the dead flesh to incarnate a spectre. The Orlanthi embody the forces of disorder that prey on the fringes of ordered society, waiting for the slightest weakness...... Good guys? I think not. 5 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bohemond Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 15 hours ago, Ali the Helering said: There is a terrible tendency to assume that 'the source document has to be written from the point of view of the good guys.' Speaking as a professional historian--every author of a document believes that the story they have to tell is the story of the good guys. Even the Nazis were convinced that they were the good guys and that the atrocities they were committed were necessary to improve their society. Even when an author is flat out lying, they always think they have a good reason to lie--serving some higher cause or obscuring the blot on the record of their hero or whatever. What Greg did was to take that to a mythic level, so that every pantheon valorizes itself and vilifies its enemies. 3 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bohemond Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 20 hours ago, Ageha said: The Mesopotamia influence is clear, agreed. I certainly also agree it must be intentional to an extent. But I do think the characterization you make here of successive empires 'arising' from Mesopotamia is not wholly accurate. Akkadians, Babylonians and Assyrians emerged from Mesopotamia proper. The Achaemenids did not, the Seleucids did not, the Parthians did not, the Sassanians did not neither did the Caliphate... I agree. I wasn't suggesting that all of those states arose specifically between the rivers. My point is that the greater Mesopotamian zone sees these constant waves of empires rising and being conquered because the region is A) highly fertile, B) wealthy because of its location as the spot where three continents meet, and C) lacks strong geographic boundaries that would make invasion difficult. And Glorantha's version of that is Dara Happan--a cradle of empires that keep rising and falling and getting incorporated into other states. So this is a plausible dynamic and I think it's interesting that Greg included it in Glorantha. Also, and here I'm getting rather metaphysical, I think in some sense it's baked into Dara Happa because this is Yelm's narrative. Because of Yelm's death and resurrection during the Godtime, there is a limit to the empires that can rise there. They have to rise and die, the same way Yelm himself does. The sun reaches its zenith and then has to descend to its nadir. And that zenith can't be raised--Yelm can't rise any higher than the highest point he hits every day, which is the exact same point every day. If he could rise higher, he'd be Dayzatar. So Yelm's ability to rise constrains his people's ability to rise. 4 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malin Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 I don't have much to add to all the excellent commentary so far, but I do detect a whiff of "Why is Orlanth the clear author Mary Sue when I don't like them." A similar flavor of the criticism I've seen leveraged against Argrath on the forum. It feels like any argument about what exactly is going on and why with the Dara Happans is less interesting than what is going on with the Storm Dudes. Especially since Dara Happa is dealt with by the narrowest definition, while everything Theylan-touched is lumped in as Orlanth's personal fiefdom. (Note: I'm a Sun County loyalist myself and hold no truck with those violent barbarians in Dragon Pass.) (Note 2: The Orlathi focus has become inevitable with the progress of the Big Campaign, and I do not fault it the least! We are only reading one side of the story right now, not a factual truth. We have no King of Sartar from the Pelorian point of view.) 3 1 1 Quote ☀️Sun County Apologist☀️ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jajagappa Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 36 minutes ago, Malin said: We have no King of Sartar from the Pelorian point of view. We know the name from WBRM: the Fourth Inspiration of Moonson. Now we just need to unearth the fragments! 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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