Why does Peloria/Dara Happa suck so much?

[Nick Brooke]

While I’m convinced this is essentially a malicious troll thread, here’s me and Sandy chatting 28 years ago:

Quote

 

NB: “Jim Chapin seems to have missed the point. Like poor old Dara Happa, the cultures on Sandy's list are generally considered dull and boring and monolithic and unchanging and patriarchal and hereditary and hierarchical. This does not mean they have no dynamic potential, or are not undergoing rapid change, or are bad places to set interesting and exciting stories.

SP: Consider: take a time machine and visit central Peloria every 500 years:

• 1 S.T. -- Mongol-like horsemen rule the land.
• 500 S.T. -- everything is sweetness and light under Nysalor’s Bright Empire.
• 1000 S.T. -- Dragon magic fills the air as we are one with the EWF.
• 1500 S.T. -- the Lunar Empire

And by visiting only every 500 years, we miss out on lots of exciting stuff, like the Carmanian invasion, Sheng Seleris's rise, the wars between Dara Happa and the First Council, and so forth.

Now let's visit Heortland every 500 years:

• 1 S.T. -- Orlanthi tribal culture
• 500 S.T. -- Orlanthi tribal culture
• 1000 S.T. -- Orlanthi tribal culture
• 1500 S.T. -- Orlanthi tribal culture

Of course, they have a series of different absentee kings (the Only Old One, the Pharaoh, Lokaymadon, etc.), but nothing really changed, not even the language.

 

 

Edited January 8 by Nick Brooke

[Ali the Helering]

3 hours ago, Bohemond said:

Speaking as a professional historian--every author of a document believes that the story they have to tell is the story of the good guys. Even the Nazis were convinced that they were the good guys and that the atrocities they were committed were necessary to improve their society. Even when an author is flat out lying, they always think they have a good reason to lie--serving some higher cause or obscuring the blot on the record of their hero or whatever. What Greg did was to take that to a mythic level, so that every pantheon valorizes itself and vilifies its enemies. 

Speaking as a professional mythologian - yep!  Greg's genius was presenting rival religions in an arrogant and self-righteous manner, totally unlike the faiths of the Real World.

😇😁🤣

[Cassius]

15 hours ago, Malin said:

Especially since Dara Happa is dealt with by the narrowest definition, while everything Theylan-touched is lumped in as Orlanth's personal fiefdom.

This also bothers me in the OP's reasoning. "Pelorians" and "Orlanthis" do not seem to me to be two comparable terms. It seems that a fairer comparison could be made between "Sun-gods worshipers" and "Air-gods worshipers" or, as Jeff does in one of his replies, between "Pelorians" and "Dragon Pass-Orlanthis". So, if we're talking about "Sun-gods worshipers", we need to include not only Pelorians but also Pentans, Pure Horse people,Yelmalite communities, and no doubt others.

Similar remarks could be made about the fixed and restricted definition of a hegemon and an empire. Even if they have never historically experienced the success of other peoples and cultures, it seems true to me that the Pelorians are a center of hegemonic power in the sense that they are always trying to institute and extend their political organization and cults imperially. This is not the case for all Glorantha peoples.

While it's true that no "Sun-gods" empire has had the duration and extension of the Arkati and EWF empires, I find it hard to call the latter two empires of Orlanthis or Air-gods worshipers. In particular, the EWF does not seem to me to be Orlanthi either in terms of its religion or its political organization. It has Orlanthi origins, for sure, but has not remained so. That's why Orlanthis fought to bring it down, just as Orlanthis contributed to the fall of Arkat's empire.

The OP seems also to have too narrow an understanding of what "Orlanthi" might mean in the Guide. In my opinion, it is a term that is a simplification and loosely designates a set of cultural traits common to different peoples and communities. As Jajajgappa points out, the Orlanthis of the Lunar provinces are certainly not evidence of a failure in the cultural assimilation of the Lunar Empire. They are no longer Gauls, not yet Romans, but Gallo-Romans.

Finally, the OP places the alleged rationality of our world states and leaders, where gods don't exist, on those of Glorantha. Why didn't Sun-god worshipers convert en masse to Air-gods after realizing that they were and will be the eternal losers of history? Well, because they certainly don't have the synthetic view of Glorantha's history that the Guide gives us, because they don't see themselves as losers, and because their gods really do exist, supporting, judging and punishing them. Neither the Pelorians nor any other Glorantha people are rational calculators, or, to put it another way, their rational calculations include the reality of their gods. If I leave Jove to worship Mithra, nothing happens to me. I have no interest in trying to do the same with Yelm, Lodril or Yelmalio...

At the end of the day, the OP doesn't like this part of Glorantha's history and would rather play CoC than Runequest. This is not debatable. I wish them nice games!

[Ageha]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:54 AM, scott-martin said:

Funny story, IMG this is roughly where they are these days but don't tell them that. Some would say "they protest too much" when it comes to protecting their imperial prerogatives in a world their cloistered aristocrats find increasingly bewildering. Attempts to recover past glory are disastrous.

Yeah, I agree with this portrayal of them, they are very dumb. They cling to a past they never had. They are the perennial losers of all imperial conflict around Genertela's core and have never been true rivals for Orlanthi, Malkioni or Pentan empires.

As everyone knows only Orlanthi are allowed to kick butts, Pelorians should stay in their lane and just keep losing or convert already. Losing is about the only thing they are good at since even their greatest cities are inferior to an Orlanthi one. The 'barbarians' literally already outbuild them.

On 1/4/2024 at 12:54 AM, scott-martin said:

Funny story, you've described the way the Council got Broken when the trolls, dragons and southern storm people got kicked out for being scary, destructive and annoying. We just don't hear much about it these days because the documents we have were preserved by the most ornery of said southern storm people, who have their own obvious bias.

Said group did then immediately come back, kick the Broken Council's butt, and reassert itself over the whole region. What I'm talking about here is regions which were conquered into the Orlanthi cultural sphere kicking out that influence and adopting a different dominant culture. Again, for me, a core part of this comes down to one easily observable fact in the Guides to Glorantha: many, many regions of the world which were not Orlanthi have been described as, through a process of conquest and conversion, being made Orlanthi now but the reverse never happens anywhere. It would nice to see that the reverse sometimes happens.

On 1/4/2024 at 12:54 AM, scott-martin said:

Funny story! Or rather, two funny stories. The first one opens up the Dawn Age map to make room for multiple diasporic waves radiating out of their initially isolated survival covenants. While we know the most about the theyalan diaspora that originated in the Choralinthor basin, careful reading can support a parallel troll-oriented missionary movement spreading the OOO cult, multiple rival elf expansions, sea people, totemic people and for your purposes a solar migration coming out of Pent ("starlight ancestors") and carrying solar ideas across the full breadth of Genertela. As these movements start interacting the world as we know it today finds its foundations, with for example some long-buried strains of starlight ancestor "Pelorian style" cultural dissemination surviving inside the little sun clans of the barbarian belt where they promptly become too fractious for me to keep track.

Per Guide to Glorantha 1 not a single region of Glorantha, outside of northern Peloria, has a Pelorian culture. So, whilst I'm sure what you are describing here is interesting, my core problem remains that Peloria is described as a hegemonic core but has none of the material markers (cultural conversion and expansion of subjugated regions) of a hegemonic core.

On 1/4/2024 at 12:54 AM, scott-martin said:

At a certain early stage in history, this light aspect gets concentrated into Peloria and Saird where the sun was reborn in splendor while the dark and stormy parts are pushed to the frontiers to refine their ancestral tale of illegitimate birth, stolen patrimony, adultery, regicide, deadbeat dad syndrome and cosmic redemption. 

This part is where I don't fully agree, the rest I think makes sense. But describing 'Storm' as the frontier just doesn't accord for me with the historical record we're given. That 'Storm' was the heart of the council which Dara Happa, on the periphery, usurped. If anything, Dara Happa here played the role of the power on the periphery that finds advantage in backwardness. Said advantage didn't last long either since Dara Happa was relatively quickly defeated and conquered by said 'storm' post which, in the 2nd Age, the explicit age of Great Empires, Dara Happa wasn't even one of the Great Empires, the Carmanians and (far more) the Orlanthi EWF were. Thus, Dara Happa, the 'Sun' seems far more to me to be the power on the periphery, trying to survive in isolation, only to be routinely crushed by the 'Storm', whilst the 'Storm' is the heart of vast empires which dominate much of the globe and have converted much of the world to their culture. 

So, personally, I do not quick agree with a 'Storm' as frontier conception. I think in many ways 'Storm' is quite clearly the metropole. I also think this is clearly born out by the material markers of history. It is Air Pantheon culture and religion which has gone on to dominate more of the world than any other group and has converted more peoples than any other groups. Much as we measure the influence of, for example, English as dominant as a lingua franca, and English-language media as determinant of pop culture, this stems from its role as part of the culture of two successive dominant hegemons.

Put another way: if you see one particular culture/faith/language seemingly more widespread and dominant than any other then, in history, we can tell that is the hegemonic force. Orlanthi culture is the only culture in Glorantha to have successfully converted whole other regions to their culture, even the homelands of others, Pelorian, conversely, have only ever managed to convert Carmanians to a Pelorian culture. The gulf between the two forces is vast and, to me, the Orlanthi 'Storm' far better suits the criterion of hegemonic and imperial power.

On 1/4/2024 at 3:26 AM, jajagappa said:

Conquest does not necessarily change cultural or tribal conditions. One simply needs to look at our own large empires (Assyrian, Persian, Alexandrian) to see that. But there is cultural exchange, and while "way of life" in the hills is better described as "Orlanthi" and in the river valleys as "Pelorian" there will be blended cultures. That's what I developed for Imther as seen in Edge of Empire - it is very much a blend of Solar (Sun Dome), Orlanthi, and Lunar.

As the Lunar and Solar cults books become available, and set alongside the Redline History of the Lunar Empire, there is a lot of opportunity to flesh out and enrich all of Peloria (which I've always found more fascinating and rich than Dragon Pass). 

Here I will have to disagree strongly. Imperial rule does, without fail, change cultural conditions. The Assyrian empire made decisive changes in the cultural composition of several Mesopotamian city-states and, far more clearly, Achaemenid rule over virtually all the near-east saw Iranian influences become predominant in many places and a general spread and flourishing of those cultures. Alexandrian is perhaps the clearest example of all of those with the lengthy period in history we call the Hellenization of the Near East being directly the result of Alexander's conquests and the resulting Diadochi. 

It is definitely true that different empires practice different levels of cultural conversion (the Achaemenids were quite famous for their tolerance) all empires cause cultural conversion simply by stint of existing. As subjects recognize certain cultural techniques as advantageous, who simply wish to adopt the mores of their conquerors, all empires engender cultural conversion. 

You use Imther as an example, per Guide to Glorantha 1 Imther is culturally Orlanthi, no mention is made of any other cultural group, and it falls under the Lunar Provinces section which simply describes the Provinces as primarily speaking Theyalan, being of the Orlanthi culture predominantly, structured along Orlanthi lines and as having, prior to the Lunar Empire, mostly worshiped Orlanth and now worshiping mostly Barntar and Ernalda. This, again, seems to reinforce that Peloria and Sky have little significant impact, despite 400 years of banning Orlanth worship. Conversely we know Orlanthi in many regions they controlled simply converted those regions to be culturally and religious Orlanthi, so I find the failure of Pelorians to do this in the Provinces over an almost half-a-millenium strange, personally. Imther also, in Mythology: Cults, still has more worshipers given than either Yelmalio or the Seven Mothers (there are no Yelm worshipers at all given) and only Ernalda exceeds Orlanth worship in Imther per the book.

For me, again, the thing I dislike is that whilst we see Orlanthi culture expand and grow, described explicitly per the books as Orlanthi, to overwhelm regions and become dominant, even in half of Peloria itself, we see and are told nothing similar from the Pelorians (save for Carmania) anywhere, even when the Lunar Empire seems to be the first Pelorian regime to ever extend to new regions and thus, I would have thought, that just like Orlanthi had achieved Pelorians could also then achieve the cultural conversion of areas to being described now as Pelorian with Sky Worship predominant. But it just doesn't happen. It goes back to my earlier point where it can come across as if Orlanthi alone are the only group of people allowed to change the cultural and religious dominance of a region. That this also means Pelorian has shrunk to only half of Peloria itself is a pity, but borne out also by the fact that the official numbers give Pelorian as, by a fair margin, the smallest and least widespread of all Genertela's cultures and religions. 

I agree that Peloria is fascinating. It is part of why I have come to not really want to play since upon reading the books this region I thought was fascinating seemed to almost always just be used to show how cool Orlanthi are. I am sure the Solar and Lunar books might expand things, but with the history that is given I just don't know how much they can do, particularly since we already know the Lunar Empire is just destroyed. 

I am sure what will come will be innovative and detailed (Runequest always is!) but I just don't personally think it will do much to change Peloria's role in the narrative as a punching bag for all its neighbours and the weakest of the power centres on Genertela. That is, however, just my opinion and I definitely hope I am wrong.

On 1/4/2024 at 4:08 AM, Ali the Helering said:

There is a terrible tendency to assume that 'the source document has to be written from the point of view of the good guys.' 

If that were to be the case then GRoY demonstrates conclusively that Dara Happa have always been the good guys whose empire would have been glorious and beautiful if it hadn't been for those darned insert one of (Digijelm/Orlanthi/Pentans/Dragons/Walindum). 

Read the Red Line History or the FS and the Lunar Empire are the good guys whose coming was prepared and needed by Dara Happa and Rinliddi. 

Read HHP or BHM and the Heortlings are the oppressed good guys fighting free of the restrictive power of Empire.  (unless it is theirs, of course.)

Personally I love steppe nomads, so I can't understand why people fail to see that Sheng Seleris was a really cool guy who wanted to liberate the downtrodden from their lives of agrarian misery, to the extent of tearing down the walls used to imprison them and setting them free to live without farms or homes.

I am also keen on recycling and eco-consciousness, so it is evident that the really good guys are the cultists of Basko, the Black Sun.  No corpse goes to waste, whether simply ingested or used as part of the divinely blessed Blood Feast, releasing the dead flesh to incarnate a spectre.

The Orlanthi embody the forces of disorder that prey on the fringes of ordered society, waiting for the slightest weakness......  Good guys?  I think not.

Yeah, like I said above when talking with French Desperate Windchild, 'good guys' was the wrong word for me to use. What I mean is 'protagonist'. That's the word I should have used since I certainly do not think the Orlanthi or Orlanth are morally good guys or anything, they are just clearly the protagonists of the setting and history.

I also don't quite agree with the idea that they are 'disorder' as such. Orlanthi are, frequently, the organizing force behind massive hegemonic empires, from the EWF to Argarth, which is quite clearly not a case of being 'disordered' in my opinion.

19 hours ago, Bohemond said:

I agree. I wasn't suggesting that all of those states arose specifically between the rivers. My point is that the greater Mesopotamian zone sees these constant waves of empires rising and being conquered because the region is A) highly fertile, B) wealthy because of its location as the spot where three continents meet, and C) lacks strong geographic boundaries that would make invasion difficult. And Glorantha's version of that is Dara Happan--a cradle of empires that keep rising and falling and getting incorporated into other states. So this is a plausible dynamic and I think it's interesting that Greg included it in Glorantha. 

Also, and here I'm getting rather metaphysical, I think in some sense it's baked into Dara Happa because this is Yelm's narrative. Because of Yelm's death and resurrection during the Godtime, there is a limit to the empires that can rise there. They have to rise and die, the same way Yelm himself does. The sun reaches its zenith and then has to descend to its nadir. And that zenith can't be raised--Yelm can't rise any higher than the highest point he hits every day, which is the exact same point every day. If he could rise higher, he'd be Dayzatar. So Yelm's ability to rise constrains his people's ability to rise. 

Sure, but the difference is that Mesopotamia becomes the prize of empires, not the cradle. Mesopotamia, by the Achaemenids, is no longer thought of as being a centre of power in of itself. No-one thinks Mesopotamian peoples are a powerful polity. What happens is that other, powerful, empires from the Iranian Plateau, Macedon, Italy and the Arabian Peninsula instead see it as a region vital to the expansion of their power. 

That's what I'm trying to say here. Thinking of Dara Happa/Peloria as a powerful hegemonic force, as is stated in the books, is incorrect. It should, instead, be thought of in the same way me and you are discussing Mesopotamia here: the prize of powerful Malkioni, Orlanthi and Pentan empires. But, Pelorians themselves, are not powerful in any hegemonic sense.

As for the Yelm point, lovely metaphor, and it demonstrates exactly what I mean then. Yelm's 'zenith' is very small. The largest Pelorian Empire ever only extended as far as half of Dragon Pass, whilst Arkat and the EWF took Orlanthi hegemon far, far beyond that. The metaphor is an exact example of what I mean by the fact that the Pelorians/Dara Happans/Yelmites seem to always suck.

My personal tastes: I don't like that.

18 hours ago, Malin said:

I don't have much to add to all the excellent commentary so far, but I do detect a whiff of "Why is Orlanth the clear author Mary Sue when I don't like them." A similar flavor of the criticism I've seen leveraged against Argrath on the forum. It feels like any argument about what exactly is going on and why with the Dara Happans is less interesting than what is going on with the Storm Dudes. Especially since Dara Happa is dealt with by the narrowest definition, while everything Theylan-touched is lumped in as Orlanth's personal fiefdom.

(Note: I'm a Sun County loyalist myself and hold no truck with those violent barbarians in Dragon Pass.)

(Note 2: The Orlathi focus has become inevitable with the progress of the Big Campaign, and I do not fault it the least! We are only reading one side of the story right now, not a factual truth. We have no King of Sartar from the Pelorian point of view.)

I don't mind Orlanth, I thnik the idea of Orlanth is cool. I dislike that things are so one-sided and I've said as much outright in my previous posts, the 2nd one in particular.

It just isn't too my tastes. Particularly when a side effect of it is to, in the narrative, make the non-Orlanthi cultures and such (particularly the Pelorians as their persistent rivals) look pathetic and honestly just evil be comparison. 

As for dealing with Dara Happa 'narrowly', as you say, I'd honestly then welcome if you could say what you'd think is a 'broader' context. For my part I'm just going primarily by the text of the Guide to Glorantha. It explicitly says per each region what the dominant culture/faith and such is. That's mostly what I'm drawing my context from here with further info from the main sourcebook and the Mythology books. 

1 hour ago, Cassius said:

This also bothers me in the OP's reasoning. "Pelorians" and "Orlanthis" do not seem to me to be two comparable terms. It seems that a fairer comparison could be made between "Sun-gods worshipers" and "Air-gods worshipers" or, as Jeff does in one of his replies, between "Pelorians" and "Dragon Pass-Orlanthis". So, if we're talking about "Sun-gods worshipers", we need to include not only Pelorians but also Pentans, Pure Horse people,Yelmalite communities, and no doubt others.

 

I'm using Guide to Glorantha here. It explicitly gives Pelorian as a specific ethnic group and gives its location as only the northern half of Peloria. Orlanthi, similarly, is presented as an ethnic group within the guide with a much, much wider range.

Since these divisions are explicitly formalized and given in the Guide to Glorantha Volume 1 it is what I am going to stick with. 

1 hour ago, Cassius said:

Similar remarks could be made about the fixed and restricted definition of a hegemon and an empire. Even if they have never historically experienced the success of other peoples and cultures, it seems true to me that the Pelorians are a center of hegemonic power in the sense that they are always trying to institute and extend their political organization and cults imperially. This is not the case for all Glorantha peoples.

 

It certainly isn't the case for all peoples of Glorantha but I never said it was the caes for all peoples of Glorantha. However, having 'ambitions' I don't think can be equated to actual material markers of imperial hegemony. Peloria lacks those for the most part. Again, let us use that last bit you mention 'they are always trying to institute and extend their political organizations and cults imperially,' but we know they have done very little of that relative to Orlanthi culture.

The Guide to Glorantha Volume 1 explicitly notes that Orlanthi culture and religion has spread through Dragon Pass, through Prax, through Western Genertela, through southern Peloria and parts of Pamaltela. Pelorian culture, and influence, is meanwhile restricted almost completely (outside of two cities in the Arrolian estates) to northern Peloria.

So, even by this measure you are mentioning, Orlanthi culture/religion does far, far more of this than Pelorians have ever done. This is what I mean by the clear difference in material markers of imperial hegemon.

1 hour ago, Cassius said:

While it's true that no "Sun-gods" empire has had the duration and extension of the Arkati and EWF empires, I find it hard to call the latter two empires of Orlanthis or Air-gods worshipers. In particular, the EWF does not seem to me to be Orlanthi either in terms of its religion or its political organization. It has Orlanthi origins, for sure, but has not remained so. That's why Orlanthis fought to bring it down, just as Orlanthis contributed to the fall of Arkat's empire.

 

Here we'll just have to disagree. There seems broad consensus that the EWF can be described as Orlanthi, Arkat I'm happy to say can be called less certainly so, but we do no specifically that it was Orlanthi who subjugated Peloria. 

As for Orlanthi fighting against Orlanthi: we discussed this earlier and the fact that there is always infighting in cultures does not stop something from being a hegemon. There are Pelorians who fight against the Lunar Empire, Dara Happa has consistent infighting, that doesn't stop them being Pelorian states in my opinion. If we use the metric of 'if any member of a culture ever has infighting the hegemon does not count of that culture' then no state will ever qualify.

1 hour ago, Cassius said:

The OP seems also to have too narrow an understanding of what "Orlanthi" might mean in the Guide. In my opinion, it is a term that is a simplification and loosely designates a set of cultural traits common to different peoples and communities. As Jajajgappa points out, the Orlanthis of the Lunar provinces are certainly not evidence of a failure in the cultural assimilation of the Lunar Empire. They are no longer Gauls, not yet Romans, but Gallo-Romans.

 

But they aren't described as Orlanthi-Pelorians. They are explicitly called Orlanthi which is in the book also first detailed as a cultural group.

Or, let me put it this way, if this is true then why are the southern Pelorian peoples not called Pelorian? A conscious decision was clearly made to say these people were Orlanthi, not Pelorian. The Mythology: Cults books presents worship of Storm Pantheon as more prevalent than Sky Pantheon in all the Provinces but Hoolay, if what you were saying is true then this would not be the case. 

Regardless, it still then means that we see virtually no Pelorian cultural expansion anywhere, save Carmania, relevant to Peloria. 

1 hour ago, Cassius said:

Finally, the OP places the alleged rationality of our world states and leaders, where gods don't exist, on those of Glorantha. Why didn't Sun-god worshipers convert en masse to Air-gods after realizing that they were and will be the eternal losers of history? Well, because they certainly don't have the synthetic view of Glorantha's history that the Guide gives us, because they don't see themselves as losers, and because their gods really do exist, supporting, judging and punishing them. Neither the Pelorians nor any other Glorantha people are rational calculators, or, to put it another way, their rational calculations include the reality of their gods. If I leave Jove to worship Mithra, nothing happens to me. I have no interest in trying to do the same with Yelm, Lodril or Yelmalio...

 

I guess here the thing is, because I think there is truth to what you say even if, I must be honest, it makes me feel like the answer is just that the Pelorians are really, really stupid, which is not something I like, but I get that as you say gods being real would change things. Agreed. They would. I can see sort of the logic you are laying out too.

But, by the same logic, if gods are real, it means that if I see my gods losing, I have direct material incentive to swap to a stronger god. When my gods are real, quantifiable, things with demonstrable results and I can see that in a big war Storm pantheon virtually always overpowers Sky pantheon, then I now have an incentive, motivted by my real gods, to swap to stronger gods who will deliver my state more power. I, further, need not fear repercussions as I know already my new pantheon is stronger than my old pantheon and thus can protect me from them.

So, I get what you are saying to an extent, but I feel it will cut in multiple directions, not just the one you sketch out.

To build on your example: if my home is conquered by Rome I didn't literally see Jove defeat Mithra, so my faith is not inherently shaken (though very often conquered peoples will convert to the faith of their conquerors anyway). But, if I'm Pelorian, I see my Sky Pantheon defeated by the Storm pantheon again, my home conquered and Yelm and all his sons powerless to do anything as, for the 2nd time, his entire blessed realm is subjugated under the Air Pantheon, I am clearly now seeing my god, who is real, is weaker than this other god who is real. This means that there just is no rational reason not to swap to the stronger god. I will be stronger. My home will be safer and I need not fear retaliation because I already know my new god is stronger.

That's sort of what I mean, I hope it makes sense. 

16 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

While I’m convinced this is essentially a malicious troll thread, here’s me and Sandy chatting 28 years ago:

It isn't, this is my genuine feelings on the matter.

16 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

NB: “Jim Chapin seems to have missed the point. Like poor old Dara Happa, the cultures on Sandy's list are generally considered dull and boring and monolithic and unchanging and patriarchal and hereditary and hierarchical. This does not mean they have no dynamic potential, or are not undergoing rapid change, or are bad places to set interesting and exciting stories.

SP: Consider: take a time machine and visit central Peloria every 400 years:

1 S.T. -- Mongol-like horsemen rule the land.

500 S.T. -- everything is sweetness and light under Nysalor’s Bright Empire.

1000 S.T. -- Dragon magic fills the air as we are one with the EWF.

1500 S.T. -- the Lunar Empire

And by visiting only every 500 years, we miss out on lots of exciting stuff, like the Carmanian invasion, Sheng Seleris's rise, the wars between Dara Happa and the First Council, and so forth.

Now let's visit Heortland every 500 years:

1 S.T. -- Orlanthi tribal culture

500 S.T. -- Orlanthi tribal culture

1000 S.T. -- Orlanthi tribal culture

1500 S.T. -- Orlanthi tribal culture

Of course, they have a series of different absentee kings (the Only Old One, the Pharaoh, Lokaymadon, etc.), but nothing really changed, not even the language.

So, from my side, I do want to make clear I'm not discussing if Peloria/Dara Happa is 'interesting or not'. I think it is interesting. I think the amount of fleshing out done in Runequest means that even regions which aren't focused on in Glorantha are still actually quite fascinating.

Edited January 5 by Ageha
zenith, not nadir, correcting myself

[Ageha]

3 hours ago, Cassius said:

At the end of the day, the OP doesn't like this part of Glorantha's history and would rather play CoC than Runequest. This is not debatable. I wish them nice games!

Hey, thanks, I do really appreciate the sentiment. Same to you!

 

I also think, just in general, I don't know if there is really more to say. At this point I think we've kind of covered everything and reached the conclusions. Thanks to everyone, appreciate the feedback a lot! 

[soltakss]

On 1/3/2024 at 5:57 PM, Ageha said:

I didn’t feel there was much substantive actually given concerning my core conceit here. A lot of the answers didn’t really address my query “Why is Peloria/Dara Happa discussed as a major hegemonic/imperial centre when in its history it has never been close to that except for, briefly, during the Lunar Empire.” Instead, a lot of the answers I think misinterpreted my query and dealt with metrics I wasn’t talking about. Nothing really disputed in any material way the simply existing facts that despite many of the books insisting Peloria was some hegemonic centre of power it has, save for the Lunar Empire, failed to ever be so and has lost every single war it has fought against Orlanthi hegemons, including being conquered by Orlanthi hegemons, with the sole exception of the Lunar Empire’s century of ascendancy ending with Argath. My core concern still remains: why does Peloria lose every single significant engagement, fail to build any serious empires compared to the history of empire building on a far vaster scale we see from the Orlanthi, yet still get treated as some sort of hegemonic centre? Furthermore, when Orlanthi hegemons rise they, like all hegemons in reality do, bring about the conversion of conquered spaces to their cultural and religious sphere. We see this in the West, southern Peloria, Umathela etc. etc. but Pelorian culture has simply never successfully spread to and converted another region in a similar fashion, even the Lunar Empire’s 400 year reign of Peloria did not diminish the explicitly stated Orlanthi dominance of the ‘Provinces’ per the Guide to Glorantha. Even numbers support this, with Pelorians being definitively given as the smallest major culture of Genertela. Again, this explicitly does not accord with hegemonic power. When the Achamenids became hegemonic it saw the expansion of Iranian culture to most of the Near East, the Argeads and their Diadochi led to the cultural Hellenization of much of the eastern Mediterranean world, Pax Romana saw incredible numerous and diffuse groups adopt and identify as Roman, in both culture and religion and Sinicization under successive Dynasties achieved much the same. All evidence indicates that Peloria has never been, with the sole exception of the Lunar Empire, anything like a hegemonic or imperial force of note.

The Dara Happan Tripolis was created in God Time and survived the Lesser Darkness, Age of Ice, Greater Darkness, and Grey Age before emerging into Time. It then survived the Pentians/Horse Riders, Carmanians, Arkat, Empire of the Wyrms Friends and the Carmanians. Sure, other people had temporary power but those were only blips. The Dara Happan culture and the Empire lasted for all of this time.

So, they were temporarily conquered, or the surrounding lands were, but the cities themselves, the Tripolis, remained intact and unconquered.

Also, it's about culture. The Dara Happan Yelmites are similar to how they were at the Dawn, maybe a bit more polished but essentially the same. Can we say that of the Orlanthi? 

So, in that way, they are very successful.

Also, in Glorantha, Empires rise and fall with each Age. So, the fact that the Tripolis has survived through three Ages of Time and several Ages in God Time shows how successful they are.

 

[Tatterdemalion Fox]

A couple of tweaks that might make the issue more palatable (likely not for OP, but for those reading who are convinced of OP’s position and are willing to embrace heretical strains of YGWV):

• Emphasize the melting pot of the Lunar Provinces. (The Imther book does an amazing job of this.) Make them a fluid frontier land where storm and sun meet in myriad forms, which have been under Dara Happan control at various times, and imply that eastern Fronela is similar. 

• Heck, sprinkle in a few lands which have been dominated by Dara Happa for ages. You can even change the character of the Lunar Provinces completely, making them a primarily Solar region; Tarsh is the major one that I would argue absolutely must stay primarily Orlanthi prior to its Lunar conquest for the Dragon Pass conflict to maintain its unique character.

• Play up the glory of the Tripolis, which once comprised the three greatest cities in the world, shining metropolises whose relevance is only now beginning to wane in comparison to Glamour and Nochet. Speak of Alkoth in hushed tones: the city of the dead, the city of the invincible phalanx, the city never overcome at its own walls. Sing of the glories of Raibanth, seat of the Emperors, and how the victorious Carmanians thought they had entered paradise when they beheld its splendor. Whisper of the high towers of Yuthuppa, only recently outmatched by the Lunar Road, and the depths of its archives, and the secrets it has kept for three ages of the world. The Dara Happans are the city-builders, and even their ruins are grand.

• For the love of Orlanth, treat the Argrathsaga as a vision of things that may yet come to pass, fearful prophecy and prediction, to be changed in the warp and weft of the Hero Wars. Question the destiny of Argrath White Bull, the fate of Jar-Eel the Razoress, and the Doom of Glorantha. (This is easier now, when the long-awaited Boldhome Campaign is still long-awaited, but I think it’s still vital for contemporary Gloranthan play. Trying to stick to a deliberately confused and subjective “future timeline” is a recipe for disaster, but it’s a great cauldron of inspiration.)

• Imply that the “Orlanthi” cultures, particularly in the west, have grown far strange from what Dragon Pass would recognize. Let a hundred flowers blossom! The solar-influenced Imtheri are just scratching the surface; the Raliosi may still worship the Darkness far more directly, and the West in general is defined by the interplay of Malkionism and theism.

• Or just insert a period between the fall of the EWF and the Dragonkill War where the victorious Dara Happans seized control of Dragon Pass, which gives them a historical casus belli for invading Sartar in the Third Age.

Edited January 5 by Tatterdemalion Fox

[Darius West]

On 1/5/2024 at 6:04 AM, Malin said:

I don't have much to add to all the excellent commentary so far, but I do detect a whiff of "Why is Orlanth the clear author Mary Sue when I don't like them." A similar flavor of the criticism I've seen leveraged against Argrath on the forum.

The fact is, the Orlanthi are a better choice for player character adventurers than Solar Pantheists.  Orlanthi are raised with a sense of agency.  Solar Pantheists are raised with a sense of the chain of command, and who they take orders from.  Lunars however are taught "An ye love Moonson, do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.  Love is the law.  Love under Moonson. Moonson is watching you".  

As for Orlanth being a Mary Sue, whoever said that doesn't know what a Mary Sue is.  By definitions, your Mary Sue is a character who starts out with no flaws and all the benefits and is always right, and always succeeds.  Orlanth is none of those things.  Orlanth fails, and gets defeated, but perseveres against the odds.  Orlanth is the only god who ever admits he did something wrong too.  As for people sneering at Argrath, I prefer him to Moonson's thousand chaos loving faces, even though Argrath remains an enigma.  Real geniuses are often enigmas.

Edited January 7 by Darius West

[g33k]

On 1/4/2024 at 12:54 PM, Nick Brooke said:

While I’m convinced this is essentially a malicious troll thread ...

I don't read it that way at all; I think @scott-martin hit the nail on the head calling it a "cri de coeur."  The OP really, really likes the DH empire and/or dislikes the Orlanthi (or maybe both, in various measures).

They also display some misunderstandings, e.g. sometimes conflating DH with most/all Solar worship, and DP with most/all Storm worship... but not always doing so.   They apparently consider Draconic Kethaela to be yet another instance of "Storm beats Sun" (?!?) .  They even appear to have recorded Pent's conquest of (much of) DH onto the "Solars suck" side of his Storm/Solar ledger...?!

The OP has been presented with data -- such as the several other substantive (non-DH) Solar powers, the substantive numbers of DH victories, long DH Imperial eras, Storm-Carmanian subjugation by DH (& Orlanthi-Tarsh subjugation by thev Lunarized Dara Happans), the long Solar Tripolis history of survival (unmatched, ever, by any Air/Stom power) &c -- that don't fit their narrative (that the setting is treating DH badly)... they basically seem to take a "that doesn't count" attitude toward all these facts that don't fit their narrative.

This is the perspective of someone who has already chosen a side, who has already made their decision.  This isn't "malicious trolling" (i.e. trying to cause trouble for the sake of trouble), but voicing a (legitimate by their lights) complaint about the setting as they understand it.

Now, let's be honest and admit -- as the OP points out -- that the Orlanthi/Lightbringers *have* spread more-successfully.

A priori, there is no reason the West shouldn't be fundamentally Solar instead of Storm (or Earth; or a mix, with Water-powers dominant around Lake Felster & the Sweet Sea, and other Elemental powers elsewhere); but again this overlooks the fact that the West is more "Malkioni" than it is "Storm."

Insofar as this point goes, the OP is 100% correct... but this doesn't really reflect a "Storm conquers Sun" outlook; rather, it's the fundamental mytho-historic fact that Orlanth&Co -- in Lightbringing to restore Yelm -- set the pattern of Lightbringer-Questing that their followers continued with the Dawn, spreading Theyalan ways broadly. The Solar powers had no such initiative... part of the "Compromise" was that Orlanth recognize Yelm as "Cosmic Emperor" (in a largely-passive role) while Yelm recognize Orlanth as "King of the Gods" (in an active, adventurer/warleader role).

It's very reminiscent of the Shoguns rendering the Emperor more-passive, or what the Magna Carta did (or at least began) with the English throne.  The Theyalan "missionaries" are also reminiscent of Christianity's proselytizing ways & worldwide spread.  I don't know if Greg explicitly took any of this as inspiration into Glorantha, or not  But let us also admit that Greg's original genesis of Glorantha (which is written onto the very bones of the setting) is a very American-POV narrative of bold vibrant "Barbarians" facing-down invading wrongbad "Imperials..." and with DH in the "Imperial" camp, there's definitely some lingering corners of "they're wrongbad."

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, g33k said:

It's very reminiscent of the Shoguns rendering the Emperor more-passive, or what the Magna Carta did (or at least began) with the English throne.  The Theyalan "missionaries" are also reminiscent of Christianity's proselytizing ways & worldwide spread.  I don't know if Greg explicitly took any of this as inspiration into Glorantha, or not  But let us also admit that Greg's original genesis of Glorantha (which is written onto the very bones of the setting) is a very American-POV narrative of bold vibrant "Barbarians" facing-down invading wrongbad "Imperials..." and with DH in the "Imperial" camp, there's definitely some lingering corners of "they're wrongbad."

This whole thread IMO says more about some of the posters than about the Gloranthan setting.

Solar worship and the Lightbringers are pretty comparable in terms of influence. 

Sun-worship is pretty common in Genertela. It is the ruling god in most of Peloria (let's say 7 million people), Pent (another .8 million), and Teshnos (2.25 million). It is influential enough in Kralorela for scholars to say that Kralorela is a solar culture. Let's give that a 50% discount and it is still another 5 million. So some 15 million humans.

Lightbringers worship is widely disseminated, first by the Theyalans, then with some cults by the Middle Sea Empire. But let's just count the areas where Orlanth is top god. That gives us Kethaela, Dragon Pass, Maniria, the Pelorian hill country, and much of Ralios and Fronela, plus a minority of Praxians and Pentans. That gets us around 11 million people. Fewer than the Solars but still one of the world's main cluster of cults.

Glorantha as Greg's literary creation predates the barbarians and the imperials. They were a late addition to his stories. 

As a final aside, remember that Arkat did not establish an empire in Maniria, Holy Country, Dragon Pass, or Peloria. He left his friends and allies in charge and then left. His only "empire" was the so-called Dark Empire in Ralios, where the great hero retired to and he taught his secrets to those followers who stayed with him. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 hours ago, Darius West said:

Orlanth fails, and gets defeated, but perseveres against the odds.  Orlanth is the only god who ever admits he did something wrong too.

Please, I'd like more information on this.  I have, yet again, reread the Orlanth writeup in Cults of Runequest, The Lightbringers.

1. There is a brief mention "sometimes defeated temporarily", or "He was scorched ... yet survived". but zero details. 
   1. Who defeated Him?
   2. What were the downsides?  Lunars, Yelmalio, Uz, they have mythical downsides.  Orlanth?
2. I don't see where he ever admits he did something wrong.  To whom did Orlanth apologize, and what did he say?  There should be some "Bad Poetry" used for a formal Orlanth apology ritual.

Edited January 7 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Jeff]

8 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Please, I'd like more information on this.  I have, yet again, reread the Orlanth writeup in Cults of Runequest, The Lightbringers.

1. There is a brief mention "sometimes defeated temporarily", or "He was scorched ... yet survived". but zero details. 
   1. Who defeated Him?
   2. What were the downsides?  Lunars, Yelmalio, Uz, they have mythical downsides.  Orlanth?
2. I don't see where he ever admits he did something wrong.  To whom did Orlanth apologize, and what did he say?  There should be some "Bad Poetry" used for a formal Orlanth apology ritual.

Orlanth is Storm. Storm is often overcome - the clouds part, the winds die down, and we get calm again - until it returns at a time and place of its choosing.

Orlanth - and all the Storm Gods, trolls, and others - was defeated at the Battle of Stormfall. There were other times as well - when he was forced to flee from the far north when his father was destroyed. When he decided to embark on the Lightbringers Quest. When he was self-defeated in the Underworld by Eurmal's betrayal of Argan Argar's hospitality. But as one of the most powerful gods of the Gods War (tied by a few, but surpassed by none until the Greater Darkness), Orlanth tended to win the battles he fought.

Orlanthi mythology rightfully hold that their god was dominant in the Lesser Darkness. He was the leader of the most powerful faction of gods (although Darkness and Water came close). But the Air Gods were defeated by Chaos at Stormfall. Orlanth (and every other god) was simply outmatched by Wakboth. The only way the world would be restored would be to make peace with those Orlanth had warred with and collectively defeat the Devil.

[Malin]

5 hours ago, Darius West said:

 

I mean I do agree with you 100%! However some seem to differ. But such is life.

I find Argrath one of the most fascinating things in this setting!

[radmonger]

This mythic map from Ships & Shores of Southern Genertela, may add some points relevant to this discussion:

Air/storm is everywhere. But it only actually rules marginal lands, in the form of Ygg, Valind, Gagarth and Storm Bull. Most of the places people live are actually Earth Godess territory, and merely defended and protected by Storm gods. Teshna is an earth godess carrying a fiery weapon (Tolat?),; all the other earth Godesses are unarmed.

For solar gods, Yelm rules a small but significant territory, dominating an air goddess (Entekos) rather than protecting an Earth Godess.  but the other prominent fire/sky god is, perhaps surprisingly, Kalikos .  He is shown as a Yelmalio-like spearman figure, defending Pelora against Valind.

His appearance here suggests to me Kalikos is a more significant god than generally presented, perhaps a major cult in the western reaches. Likely he has the heat powers that Yelmalio lacks, perhaps at the cost of light powers.

 

 

 

[M Helsdon]

12 hours ago, radmonger said:

This mythic map from Ships & Shores of Southern Genertela, may add some points relevant to this discussion:Air/storm is everywhere. But it only actually rules marginal lands, in the form of Ygg, Valind, Gagarth and Storm Bull.

Umm, no.

This map illustrates major influences on the weather, but Sun and Storm are everywhere.

Yelm is centered over Dara Happa, but that's partly because putting him in the exact center wouldn't fit the composition. Orlanth and Heler are to the left in part for the composition, and because they are almost everywhere, and for much of the year Orlanth's wind drives in from the northwest or west. Similarly Brastalos is to the right to balance the Storm God and because for Genertela her doldrums arrive from the southeast, and then proceed westwards south of the coast. Gagarth's winds can appear anywhere in one season, so his placement is to balance the composition. The annual struggle between Valind and Kalikos is shown, but Yelmalio isn't because he is the Cold Sun and has little to no influence on the climate. Iphara can also appear anywhere, but there was a space on the left, so whilst she creates sea fogs over Lost Brithos, this isn't the only place you might encounter her. 

The Land Goddesses are shown for two reasons: to provide a geographical context, and because land influences the weather and winds, especially during the sailing season.

The Red Goddess (and the Blue Streak - not shown) cause the tides, which along the southern coast can be significant (the Holy Country is 'tide-wracked'), and the ebb and flow of the tides has a localised effect on the weather.

Katrin and I discussed the organisation of the picture, with the Land Goddesses and Sea Gods the 'first layer', then the Air and Solar gods. There wasn't any easy way to include Darkness, so I chose not to include Xentha, for example - the air and land cool at night. There's some correlation between some of the Air Gods and their core territories. A lot of thought went into this picture, but it shouldn't be taken as a map of divine geopolitics.

This is intended to be an in-world map, depicting an Esrolian artist's (or their patron's) worldview.

Edited January 8 by M Helsdon

[radmonger]

Hate to disagree with the author of the work i'm citing, but I don't think climate, divinity and geopolitics are cleanly distinct topics. Certainly throughout earth history, the rise and fall of empires has been governed by the climate.

The Dara Happan empire exists because it grows crops in a certain way. Which in turn is because the calm air of Entekos allows relatively easy access to the Yelmic realm.

The lands of the Earth Godesses are the other lands where agriculture is practiced. Which works because crop-destroying storms only happen at a time in the annual cycle where the fields are empty.

Any educated Esrolian would know that. They are, after all, a citizen of a state whose patron goddess gives them magic for agricultural productivity comparable to that of a modern organic farmer. I suspect there is an explicitly political message in the image that would only be apparent to someone fully up on the details of what exactly the Red and Warm Earth factions were up to the year it was commissioned. 

https://climate.nasa.gov/news/1010/climate-change-and-the-rise-and-fall-of-civilizations/

 

 

Edited January 8 by radmonger

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Hate to disagree with the author of the work i'm citing, but I don't think climate, divinity and geopolitics are cleanly distinct topics.

In Glorantha, they are not, but this picture does not show the full 'realms' you assumed: the Sun is universal during the day, far beyond the bounds of Dara Happa or Teshnos or Safelster in Ralios where his cults have major political power, and Orlanth's Air is universal, and Heler's rain nearly so, even in lands where their cults are minor or absent. Air/Storm rules far beyond the marginal lands of Ygg, Valind, or Storm Bull, and for that matter, Storm Bull as Bisos is revered in western Peloria even though here he is shown in Prax. 

Edited January 8 by M Helsdon

[Darius West]

20 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

 

1. Who defeated Him (Orlanth)?

Lots of people.  Yelm, Humakt, Trickster, Rufelza, just to name a few.  

 

20 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

 

1. I don't see where he ever admits he did something wrong.  To whom did Orlanth apologize, and what did he say?  There should be some "Bad Poetry" used for a formal Orlanth apology ritual.

Orlanth completely admits that killing Yelm was wrong, and even fixes the problem.

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, M Helsdon said:

In Glorantha, they are not, but this picture does not show the full 'realms' you assumed:

Obviously, the map shows not the actual state boundaries, but is a mytho-political statement from the perspective of an Esrolian noblewoman. Fronela is not actually ruled by an earth queen. But she found it useful to depict her that way, as an enemy of Ygg. 

Orlanth is not shown as ruling, but as an external threat, a peer of Gagarth. Slonta sleeps, and in her slumber, Graymane raids us. Kalikos is depicted as the same size as Valind, valiantly defending Pelora.

Teshna looks to her own defence. With no husband. she is as scrawny as a Vingan.

Belintar is absent. But does the prominence of Yelm imply the possibility of his resurrection too? 

Esrola half-rises, pondering how to deal with these threats.

This is clearly propaganda created on behalf of the Red Earth faction.

[g33k]

22 hours ago, Jeff said:

... Glorantha as Greg's literary creation predates the barbarians and the imperials. They were a late addition to his stories ... 

???
Can you say a bit more about this, please?
I had thought that basic framework (Imperial/Barbarian conflict) was in place as of WBRM (and thus pre-RQ) ... ?  Certainly Harrek's bit is steeped in "Barbarian" tropes.

Obviously, Greg was creating the world for some years prior to that... but I wouldn't necessarily think of WBRM as "late addition" content.

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

Obviously

Such are the dangers of misinterpretating the art of another culture.

The original can be seen at the museum of ancient Rhigos.

[Jeff]

5 minutes ago, g33k said:

???
Can you say a bit more about this, please?
I had thought that basic framework (Imperial/Barbarian conflict) was in place as of WBRM (and thus pre-RQ) ... ?  Certainly Harrek's bit is steeped in "Barbarian" tropes.

Obviously, Greg was creating the world for some years prior to that... but I wouldn't necessarily think of WBRM as "late addition" content.

WBRM came several years after Greg had written the "core" myths and history of the setting. Of course back then Argrath fought against Gbaji in the Chaos Wars, Humakt was the Storm King, and Ehilm was the Sun God. But it was all there. WBRM would take place in the undefined Srvulai - or Krjalki Land depending on the source. There was Ernaldi land to the south of this, but what we be BOTH the Lunar Empire and Sartar was a largely unknown land of "barbarians" (which in Greg's stories meant merely that they were considered inferior by the Seshnegi and Brithini.

[scott-martin]

39 minutes ago, radmonger said:

This is clearly propaganda created on behalf of the Red Earth faction.

Now that you bring it up the occult symbolism is even more complicated. Map the eye lines and a clear division emerges between land goddesses who look to the west (Frona, Pelora, Teshna) and those who face the other way (Seshna to Esrola), while Ralia and Slonta complete the directional repertoire. What does this mean?

First, the archaic Pelora joins Frona in looking away from the sun toward the original northwestern survival covenant of the Neliomi basin. This suggests that the early Janube played an important role in unifying these lands, and because we all know Sog was built on the ruins of a dead geothermal regime we can postulate a lost "husband protector" (call him the red king) who was ultimately replaced in Peloria at least by modern Yelm. Note also that only Teshna is looking directly at the sun as her original consort.

Esrola, on the other hand, faces the Bull to signify the Waha covenant centered in the Paps, while Seshna looks across in that direction as well. Ralia is neutral as befits her role as custodian of the original seasonal marriage contests at Hrelar Amali: sometimes she pivots "west" toward the water (lodril) marriage and sometimes she pivots "east" toward the sky. Slonta's disposition is a secret. I can't talk about that beyond hinting that this relates to the esoteric meaning of the goddess "switch" in which a heretofore uncontacted entity emerged to replace another whose era was over: note that neither modern Ernalda nor archaic Soruvela appear here under those names. This is a visual manual for building or, if necessary, destroying goddesses.

There are of course other intricacies waiting to be teased out but getting back to the thread topic it reveals the way the Yelm / Orlanth rivalry is managed historically while the older Yelm / Neliom / Lodril contest is no longer relevant to most people. The forest has shifted. The old Flamal was a water god. The new one, not so much.

[Ynneadwraith]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

This is clearly propaganda created on behalf of the Red Earth faction.

Seems an astute assessment, with Orlanth portrayed in such close (almost romantic) proximity to Heler, rather than as husband to the most important of Earth Goddesses. Seems like an attempt to drive a wedge between the divine pairing.

[French Desperate WindChild]

22 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

I don't see where he ever admits he did something wrong.  To whom did Orlanth apologize, and what did he say?  There should be some "Bad Poetry" used for a formal Orlanth apology ritual.

Yinkin, for an eye, Humakt for a family member, Yelm for a life, and some other I don't know. After all the well of Daliath was a little bit hard with him